Covert Lethality change.

[armedpoop]

23 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

No, you didn't get it straight at all, I don't want DE to gimp anything.  I want daggers to not depend on CL to be a viable choice in a mission.  That is all CL does, give a reason to use a dagger to cheese the system.  Build doesn't even matter on daggers with CL, you can literally use ONLY CL on a dagger and due to how the mechanics work, you will instakill anything with certain frames.  If you prefer not to play those frames, CL becomes useless because daggers are useless without CL.

That is what I wish would change.  People say CL is fine as is, and sure because it has its uses for sure, but if daggers had their own niche that didn't require CL to be filled, and CL was a bonus rather than the only reason to use a dagger then it would be better in my opinion.

But more specifically what I was referring to was that people who comment "remove this or don't use that to challenge yourself" isn't a challenge at all.  So the comment makes no sense to me.  What other games do you play where not using the most powerful thing you can find is considered a challenge?  Using said item and it not being a cakewalk is a challenge to me.  

It is usually if not always the goal of MMO's and games in general to seek out the powerful objects so that the next stage isn't impossible but actually challenging.  When has it ever been "You've attained the best, now unequip it so you can enjoy the next mission!"

Even when DE does tac alerts that gimp you, lower your max energy, make it melee only or other penalties, those situations are being constantly questioned as to why must they do that to make a tac alert "challenging".  This is pretty much the same thing.  Shouldn't an event be interesting and challenging even with full energy capacity and a full arsenal available?  Why is the definition of challenge suddenly "take away things that make it fun"?

If that doesn't help it become clearer then I have no idea what else to say.

Based on what you literally just typed, I was right about what you said. You dont want to gimp yourself, you want DE to gimp you and everyone else just because you think CL is too strong. There are literally much more efficient ways of killing than Covert Lethality. Covert Lethality is literally the only reason to use a dagger, daggers are bad in this game for more reasons than just "low stats". Daggers arent meant to be the most powerful objects in warframe. CL just gives Daggers an actual use. 

Nobody is saying gimp yourself for a "challenge" they are saying dont gimp everyone else because of how you feel. The current system allows you to not use that and noone but you is affected, the system you want only hurts anyone else that thought daggers might be useful. 

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, armedpoop said:

I was right about what you said.

Again, wrong.  I want to not be told to gimp myself just to have a challenge, which is the result of any thread where an OP weapon or mechanic is the topic.  Don't like Tonkor? don't use it.  Think covert lethality is too strong?  Don't use it.  Want a challenge?  Take off your mods and solo sorties.  That is literally the solution from those who enjoy roflstomping content because they feel it is fun when its easy, the exact opposite definition of challenging.

But sure, if changing covert lethality from instakill anything included making daggers more viable and interesting all on their own, then sure DE please gimp the holy effing heck ever mother loving bejesus out of all of us.  

Because, despite you and others finding cheese to be fun, I do not, and this is my opinion and is shared by others just as your opinion is yours and please do not put words into my mouth.  Thanks.  So yeah, I will support the desire some people have to find ways to change and reduce the cheese even if that means reducing the fun of those who think no challenge = fun.  See I can put words into others' mouths too.

The fact is it isn't your opinion or mine that matters, people have this weird affliction where they think that when one lonely single solitary person says THIS IS OP DE NERF IT that it magically happens because of just that one person wanting it to be so.  This is not the case and is absolutely positively not true in any sense of the word or definition of the intent.

DE reads our feedback and makes decisions based on that, sometimes their decisions coincide with your cheesy desires (hurray for banshee's take a nap augment) and sometimes they coincide with people that aren't you (various nerfs that you disagree with because you hate challenge and want to ruin everyone who likes a challenge's fun).

Did I get that straight?

[armedpoop]

1 minute ago, Xekrin said:

Because, despite you and others finding cheese to be fun, I do not, and this is my opinion and is shared by others just as your opinion is yours and please do not put words into my mouth.  Thanks.  So yeah, I will support the desire some people have to find ways to change and reduce the cheese even if that means reducing the fun of those who think no challenge = fun.  See I can put words into others' mouths too.

The fact is it isn't your opinion or mine that matters, people have this weird affliction where they think that when one lonely single solitary person says THIS IS OP DE NERF IT that it magically happens because of just that one person wanting it to be so.  This is not the case and is absolutely positively not true in any sense of the word or definition of the intent.

DE reads our feedback and makes decisions based on that, sometimes their decisions coincide with your cheesy desires (hurray for banshee's take a nap augment) and sometimes they coincide with people that aren't you (various nerfs that you disagree with because you hate challenge and want to ruin everyone who likes a challenge's fun).

Did I get that straight?

I didnt put any words into anybody's mouth tho, and you didnt get it straight, you projected what you think my thoughts are and argued against that projection. Im not sure why you did it, but ill humor you anyway.

 

I dont agree with nerfing CL simply because you find it to be "cheesey" or because a group of people find it "cheesey". Theres no reason to put daggers back in the pool of garbage that so many other weapons in this game are apart of. Daggers now have a place in inventories due to CL existing. Why take that away? Just because others use it to "cheese" content? Just because others arent playing the game the way YOU want it to be played in other words, right? If you (and whoever else agrees with the nerf for that matter) can give me good enough reasoning other than "it takes away MY challenge" or any reason that doesnt have to do with YOU, ill consider conceding my stance on the subject, but until then I dont see a good enough reason for this nerf, ESPECIALLY with damage 3.0 on the horizon. 

[EvilChaosKnight]

Killing 1 enemy every 1.5s at melee range only is cheesy? In a horde game? Like what?

I could see why people would complain about Synoid Simulor or Ember just stealing all their kills on trash mobs in pub games. But THIS?

[SinergyX]

46 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Killing 1 enemy every 1.5s at melee range only is cheesy? In a horde game? Like what?

I could see why people would complain about Synoid Simulor or Ember just stealing all their kills on trash mobs in pub games. But THIS?

Only 1 per 1.5sec? Stacking the crit buff on combo and going nonstop reds does the job considerable faster.

[EvilChaosKnight]

10 minutes ago, SinergyX said:

Only 1 per 1.5sec? Stacking the crit buff on combo and going nonstop reds does the job considerable faster.

Yea. You have to sit through Each. Individual. Finisher. Which even with high attack speed takes quite a while. Front one is faster I believe but still.

[SicSlaver]

I guess the Rakta dagger needs to be garbage for this mod to be balanced then.

Edited August 5, 2016 by SicSlaver

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

All bosses and assassins are immune to finishers. Which makes covert lethality fine. You can only kill mobs with it. And some mobs are really hard to get a finisher on, Juggernaut for example. Catching that bouncing fatty with a back finisher is an achievement by itself.

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 hour ago, SicSlaver said:

I guess the Rakta dagger needs to be garbage for this mod to be balanced then.

What's NOT balanced about it? I still fail to see you point. Being able to bypass absolutely ridiculous and broken armor scaling (90% and above DR of elite lancer lvl 70 for example, not even touching heavies) on enemies is not balanced? Or what? It's not like it kills everything in the room or prevents anyone else from having fun. It's literally methodical 1 by 1 enemy elimination.

[Deatherage_]

2 hours ago, SicSlaver said:

I guess the Rakta dagger needs to be garbage for this mod to be balanced then.

ok time for you to stop right there

 

is being able to have finishers one shot strong? yes

is enemy scaling balanced in a way to have fun and enjoyable game? most of the time no

so instead of complaining about how people have to use things like CL against enemies that can be very unfun to fight because they can oneshot you and be nearly immpossible to kill with out that or a syndicate shotgun but regardless you forced my hand OP....

now as a result i must ask the following, i am trying to keep my replies in a civil manner so it would be nice to have anything and everything in the water to see if we can make a common ground but back to topic on hand

why do you consider CL OP? how does it stack up to the current meta game?

what is the baseline for your claim? is it a few experiences with the mod or is it ENTIRELY BASED ON THE DESCRIPTION?

does it trivialize melee as a whole? are there no other options as effective as CL daggers in your opinion melee or otherwise?

is it gamebreaking? is it so strong that you are a fool not to take it?

 

Edited August 6, 2016 by Govictory

[(PSN)ShiroPhyla]

Euw...

 

Because invisibility doesnt enable 100% cheesing, right

[Thrymm]

11 hours ago, SicSlaver said:

Well, the abilities that open them up to finishers make enemies harmless anyways. I've mentioned other issues already that's not concerned with just wiping out large amounts of enemies or what's better.

 

It's true that abilities that open up finishers make that particular enemy harmless.  It does nothing, however, for the idea that it might have already initiated its ground slam(which will likely go off anyway), or having to close to range for it, or any of the other things completely avoided by simply taking a gun to that knife fight.

If we're not worried about what's better, what's the point of the entire topic?  If this mod isn't so much better that it imbalances the game, why change it?  No "other issue" makes any sense.  It's either too powerful and needs a reduction/change or it isn't.  The idea of nerfing something because of what effect it has, but not because it's better(too good) doesn't really make any sense to me.

[DSpite]

15 hours ago, SicSlaver said:

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. It really and literally kills some of the challenge events that DE rolls out at times.

It "might" kill the challenge SOLO, but there is no way a team of 3 other people will let you sneak around and take 10x as long to do the mission just so you can backstab everything.

Also, it only kills the "challenge" if you have the Mod, then USE the Mod, and as stated, go solo. If you do all three, aren't you killing your OWN challenge? Why are you doing that? I can kill mission challenge in tons of ways, ie Mirage and Synoid Simulor, I simply choose not to make my game THAT boring.

[Soketsu]

15 hours ago, SicSlaver said:

Until DE can distinguish the difference between Finishers done through unalerted stealth means and due to abilities opening enemies up to Finishers, I'm suggesting a change to Covert Lethality. As it is now, it can be used to cheese enemies into instant death and gets rid of some of the challenge. Instead of instant kill on Finishers, how about giving the user 5 seconds or less invisibility at max rank?

can't you wait 1st for the damage 3.0 ? 

[JalakBali]

8 hours ago, SicSlaver said:

I guess the Rakta dagger needs to be garbage for this mod to be balanced then.

Luckily, all daggers are garbage. Compared to all other melee.

 

Seriously, daggers (but not dual daggers) are the worst melee. The range is short and they're, strangely, slow. The attack pattern is also making it harder to hit things properly but without the damage or the lunge of something like Destresza which is also a poking weapon. Making them the go-to for big damage Finishers is a good way to give them an added value without making them "swords but with less useable attack pattern" which would've happened if they buffed the damage and speed.

 

I also don't understand why CL needs to be nerfed. It's very, very strong, sure, but it is also very niche. It only works for certain builds and by building it for that you're gimping yourself in terms of using a melee that could do mass murder. Pin-point murder versus blood and guts everywhere. Trying to nerf CL is like saying we need to nerf snipers into hitting less hard. If anything, CL could get nerfed into half the value of what it is now, but the lost half should be baked into ALL daggers. So all daggers should have an inherent trait of being better at doing finishers which is quite logical.

 

Really, if anyone's argument is "nerf CL and then buff daggers" then you're missing the point: creating variety with different types weapons. Simply buffing daggers will only result in making them either a carbon copy of other weapons and either become not as good so getting forgotten or being better and then making that other set of weapons forgotten. Each weapon should give an alternative way to play the game otherwise we'd end up with a bunch of weapons that look different of plays exactly the same.

[Bizzaro21]

16 hours ago, SicSlaver said:

Right, the challenge for that Gift of the Lotus was to avoid the enemies.... It was only 5 minutes.

and i didnt? i only used it for helping a friend through it, for myself i just ran around, also it was 6 minutes

plus, this was an effing broken alert, u cant tell me DE make an alert with insanely OP enemies and god mode on our side, without the intention to have it cheesed through...

it isnt broken, u just take one enemy out at a time, that isnt broken to me, considering daggers are one of the worst weapons for swarm control, which is smth we deal with in literally every single game mode we play, so u sacrifice the normal melee usage by bringing a not so powerful one, for the luxury of finishers, a blood rush+body count fragor p can do equally good on finishers up to level 100+, and it is good on its own outside finisher usage, so u tell me what is more broken

[von4steiner]

Covert lethality is a band aid mod. They should first make daggers viable before nerfing it in the ground.

Besides why should it get nerfed? I rarely see dagger finisher users anyways. I'm starting to think i might be the only one.  And no. It's not because i use covert lethality that i only play in one way. I have a lot of builds. My covert lethality inaros build is just one of them.

And like everyone already said covert lethality daggers are terrible at crowd control. Which is a problem in a game with swarms of enemies. It's actually easier to grab a war or fragor prime and just mindlessly mash that mouse button until everything's dead. With the dagger i at least use my abilities.

Edited August 6, 2016 by von4steiner