Did you know? Grineer EHP exponentially, exponentially, exponentially, exponentially scales?

[lyravega]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

This is true, but you can't deny that there should not be that much of a spike and if there was a spike it should probably not be at level 10 (maybe 30?).

There shouldn't be a spike, at all. But considering low level missions also have lower amounts of enemy, maybe whomever came up with those equations are actually taking the spawn rates into consideration, hence why there are spikes.

But if you ask me, the graph should look like a square root graph; both x and y increases but y increase gradually drops. Linear increases will be off the scale after a point.

edit: This indirectly brings me to another point; Corrosive Projection. CP completely invalidates armor. And this game has a lot of stuff that invalidates features of the game. Armor gets invalidated by CP, Warframe powers get invalidated by Nullifiers, etc...

Edited August 9, 2016 by lyravega

[DrBorris]

39 minutes ago, Kenshin98 said:

they helped it, at least for prime parts, which is the biggest RNG problem there is 

back to the OP. this is some good research you've done, congrtz first 

so the basic idea is: when enemies get harder and harder to kill (due to armor and health scaling together), you aren't rewarded with more and more XP? well I'm guessing that's an easy fix, just increase the XP from higher lvl enemies 

but I'd like to point out that, doing high lvl missions is also good for getting XP (maybe better than lvl 10, as you suppose), since in higher lvls, heavy units spawn more, eximus spawn more, and these are the highest XP giving units in the game. also, I don't think a heavy unit/eximus spawns at lvl 10. I mean, you wanna farm lvl 10 lancers, be my guest, but I'll go for the lvl 50+ ELITE lancers and heavy units and eximus

also, by your research, doing a low lvl survival should get me more XP than a high lvl survival, which I find unbelievable, but I'll test it anyway 

as for your solution to fix this, should armor scale and health doesn't? since logically, I doubt a grineer with get more blood and muscles instead of more powerful armor on. but warframe isn't logical so... >.> 

Level 10 is the most efficient per point of damage. So, as someone earlier said, because of overshot damage it is not really the most efficient for late game stuff as if you have overkill damage you might as well do higher levels. In addition, units don't scale at an infinite rate so you are going to obviously get more affinity for 10 level 80 enemies than for 10 level 10 enemies. The problem is that, in proportion to how much damage you need to do to kill those enemies, you are rewarded MUCH less.

A more practical application would be that, as soon as you stop one shoting enemies (after level 10) it would be more efficient to start over and start over. It is still not the most representative graph, but it does confirm the "more efficient to kill a lot of low level enemies than a few high level enemies."

 

26 minutes ago, bluepheonix13 said:

Just to correct you, the term exponential is wrong in this case. Health and armor only scale polynomial. Exponential would be "constant^enemy level", which would be much worse scaling.

Ugh, you're right technically, but it comes across a bit easier with those terms... and I am too lazy to rewrite the OP.

 

23 minutes ago, lyravega said:

There shouldn't be a spike, at all. But considering low level missions also have lower amounts of enemy, maybe whomever came up with those equations are actually taking the spawn rates into consideration, hence why there are spikes.

But if you ask me, the graph should look like a square root graph; both x and y increases but y increase gradually drops. Linear increases will be off the scale after a point.

edit: This indirectly brings me to another point; Corrosive Projection. CP completely invalidates armor. And this game has a lot of stuff that invalidates features of the game. Armor gets invalidated by CP, Warframe powers get invalidated by Nullifiers, etc...

Well, if you are going to keep endless scaling there probably should be a spike at some point to prevent people finding ways to cheese high level enemies to gain insane amounts of affinity. But the spike should be MUCH higher.

Or, as you say, there should be a sort of soft cap for scaling in general. The biggest problem with this is it necessitates a massive rework of damage. While we are all pretty sure DE will do something with damage, we don't yet know the scale. A soft cap would be nice but it may be too good to be true.

My thought to why this all works is that DE never thought endless missions would be a huge part of Warframe so they only looked at the EHP values of enemies between say, 1 and 40 (because once upon a time 40 was knows as end-game) when they were first doing all of these calculations. When you look at those values the exponential scaling is not that bad but obviously endless missions became extremely popular and the "end game" level moved up to 80. I personally think some semblance of endless scaling should exist, but not in terms of EHP and damage but rather AI, abilities, special units etcetera.

[(PSN)martin576]

1 hour ago, Trichouette said:

What a coincidence, some days ago I roughly calculated the health point & armor of a grineer lancer lvl 120 just to see how stupid it is, and I got something around 21 300 health point and 2250 armor, 2250 armor is 88% damage reduction, which grant the lancer around 177 800 effective health point.

And I didn't even calculate the damage output, could've been fun.

Anyway, everybody know this game has no "endgame" and everything above lvl 80-100 is absolutely stupid regarding the scaling.

 

And DE keeps making more content instead of trying to fix that... or they're doing it in secret

Probably after Lunaro they do Warframe Kart.

[EmptyDevil]

Hmm... What if armor acted like an extra layer of health for armored enemies, like Iron Skin? It could be allowed to scale but cap out at a certain point while health continues to grow.

Edited August 9, 2016 by EmptyDevil

[Trichouette]

1 minute ago, (PS4)martin576 said:

Probably after Lunaro they do Warframe Kart.

Honestly I'm sick of seeing devs working on something useless like this.

There are so many things to fix and enhance in warframe, and these devs work on so many useless features.

Then we have the casual excuse of "they aren't a big team of devs, they can't do everything"

[(PSN)martin576]

2 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Honestly I'm sick of seeing devs working on something useless like this.

There are so many things to fix and enhance in warframe, and these devs work on so many useless features.

Then we have the casual excuse of "they aren't a big team of devs, they can't do everything"

Putting up Lunaro instead of an endgame mission system was pretty stupid.

[lyravega]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)martin576 said:

Probably after Lunaro they do Warframe Kart.

Isn't that what Archwing is?

[Praxxor]

I have a great idea, let's give the Grineer some fast regenerating shields and let that scale from armor as well.

[Kainosh]

2 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

I have a great idea, let's give the Grineer some fast regenerating shields and let that scale from armor as well.

STRENGTH TO THE GRINEER!

[(PSN)martin576]

4 minutes ago, lyravega said:

Isn't that what Archwing is?

But, but, but... you won.

[FINNSTAR7]

No, the only thing that needs to change is affinity scaling, and only by a little. Even a 0.05 increase to the 0.1425 multiplier might be asking for too much, but armor and health scaling do not need to change what so ever. Especially what you said about stopping armor scaling, that would completely ruin the mechanics, balance, and flow of the game.

If you're really worried about armor scaling then don't go to extremes, instead you could suggest something like a 0.0005 decrease in the 0.005 multiplier. But you can't just get rid of scaling, that's waaaaay too unbalanced.

Edited August 9, 2016 by FINNSTAR7

[Cray]

@DrBorris, you forgot shields: MaxShield = BaseShield * (1 + (((Level - BaseLevel) ^ 2) * 0.0075))

Also, you forgot some critical factors, namely modifiers, armor-stripping techniques, and bypassing.

 

'Bypassing' is Toxin's ability to ignore shields, and any source that is 'Finisher' damage (Slash procs, actual finishers, damage ticks from Trinity's EV, to name a few) completely ignoring all shields and armor.

Armor stripping, in which I take my Strun Wraith along and ask 'what armor?' Boar Prime, Akstiletto Prime, that one Kavat, Tysis, 4xCP also work.

Modifiers, being those annoying things that mess up generic EHP calculations, and if you build your weapons right, will work in your favor. Here's health and armor modifiers in action: ModdedDamageOfType = DamageOfType * (((1 + HealthModOfType) * (1 + ArmorModOfType)) / (1 + (Armor * (1 - ArmorModOfType)) / 300))

(Where OfType means the different damage types, such as Impact, Puncture, Slash, Corrosive, Viral, etc.)

 

FOR INSTANCE, let's take my Strun Wraith and pit it against a level 200 Corrupted Bombard. That's Primed Point Blank, Hell's Chamber, Seeking Fury, Contagious Spread, Shell Shock, Toxic Barrage, Scattering Inferno, and Blaze. With a little help from a simulator program that I wrote, I can give you the following stats:

 

Bombard has 173172 health, and ~26167.7 armor. I need 36 Corrosive procs to strip all armor.

On average, I will strip that armor in 6 shots, and kill him in 12. (Assuming 0 headshots)

My expected time to kill is 9 seconds, assuming I stuck to full reloads, and don't cancel half-way through (which the Strun can do).

Here's a copy of the full results, if you're interested: (Link)

 

The point is, damage is horrifically complex, and making statements based solely on the scaling exponents (something we've known about for a long time) isn't really fair. In fact, the only thing that's really broken is armor scaling, and only if you don't bring a means to counter it. I won't comment on the affinity exponent, because I'm a bit on the fence.

[DrBorris]

39 minutes ago, FINNSTAR7 said:

No, the only thing that needs to change is affinity scaling, and only by a little. Even a 0.05 increase to the 0.1425 multiplier might be asking for too much, but armor and health scaling do not need to change what so ever. Especially what you said about stopping armor scaling, that would completely ruin the mechanics, balance, and flow of the game.

If you're really worried about armor scaling then don't go to extremes, instead you could suggest something like a 0.0005 decrease in the 0.005 multiplier. But you can't just get rid of scaling, that's waaaaay too unbalanced.

Scaling isn't bad, exponential (or polynomial as I have been corrected) is. It is the (Enemy Level)² or (Enemy Level)^1.55 that is broken. The multipliers makes sense, but the exponents don't (especially multiplying exponents by each other).

32 minutes ago, DeltaPhantom said:

@DrBorris, you forgot shields: MaxShield = BaseShield * (1 + (((Level - BaseLevel) ^ 2) * 0.0075))

Also, you forgot some critical factors, namely modifiers, armor-stripping techniques, and bypassing.

 

'Bypassing' is Toxin's ability to ignore shields, and any source that is 'Finisher' damage (Slash procs, actual finishers, damage ticks from Trinity's EV, to name a few) completely ignoring all shields and armor.

Armor stripping, in which I take my Strun Wraith along and ask 'what armor?' Boar Prime, Akstiletto Prime, that one Kavat, Tysis, 4xCP also work.

Modifiers, being those annoying things that mess up generic EHP calculations, and if you build your weapons right, will work in your favor. Here's health and armor modifiers in action: ModdedDamageOfType = DamageOfType * (((1 + HealthModOfType) * (1 + ArmorModOfType)) / (1 + (Armor * (1 - ArmorModOfType)) / 300))

(Where OfType means the different damage types, such as Impact, Puncture, Slash, Corrosive, Viral, etc.)

 

FOR INSTANCE, let's take my Strun Wraith and pit it against a level 200 Corrupted Bombard. That's Primed Point Blank, Hell's Chamber, Seeking Fury, Contagious Spread, Shell Shock, Toxic Barrage, Scattering Inferno, and Blaze. With a little help from a simulator program that I wrote, I can give you the following stats:

 

Bombard has 173172 health, and ~26167.7 armor. I need 36 Corrosive procs to strip all armor.

On average, I will strip that armor in 6 shots, and kill him in 12. (Assuming 0 headshots)

My expected time to kill is 9 seconds, assuming I stuck to full reloads, and don't cancel half-way through (which the Strun can do).

Here's a copy of the full results, if you're interested: (Link)

 

The point is, damage is horrifically complex, and making statements based solely on the scaling exponents (something we've known about for a long time) isn't really fair. In fact, the only thing that's really broken is armor scaling, and only if you don't bring a means to counter it. I won't comment on the affinity exponent, because I'm a bit on the fence.

I left out shields because Corpus add their two scaling stats (Health and Shield) as opposed to Grinner multiplying the two, which is much worse. And modifiers are not really important because the modifiers are pretty much equal at all levels (okay, I know that modifiers against armor get more potent as level increases but that does not make huge difference).

Toxin is for Corpus, and while they have the two fold scaling (as compared to Grineer's three fold) it is nowhere near as bad. And now on to corrosive procs... So what you are telling me that is that corrosive procs are the solution. Here is the problem with that, there are only a very small selection of weapons that are viable "status" weapons. You also can't really count the other sources of finisher damage because not everything can slash proc (very few high status+high slash weapons), only a few frames can reliably finisher, and not everyone can Trinity. You can play the "right tool for the job" only so much because without those things you are completely unable to do anything, making a large group of content worthless.

 

What exactly did you use to do that math? I have a fancy excel sheet that does pretty good but it can't calculate in status chance. And Strun Wraith is probably the best status weapon because of innate multishot and 100% proc chance potential.

 

The thing is, these are all ways to get around the broken scaling, especially things like 4x CP. If you "need" 4x CP to do an extended Grineer mission there is an issue, nothing so specific as that should ever be necessary. This is especially true when compared to Corpus (I am pretty sure that Toxin is only marginally more useful if not less useful than Magnetic for Corpus, partially because of health scaling faster than shields) and Infested. Why is it that the Grineer scale so much better than these two other factions?

And don't forget that even though you are able to compensate by damaging the scaling elements, you are still "damaging" the exponentially scaling armor.

 

OF COURSE it is armor scaling that is broken, that is kind of the point of all of this. It is armor scaling that makes up for the vast majority of Grineer's increase in EHP. I could understand exponential scaling in health (but I think soft caps and nerfing Tenno damage scaling is the best solution) but multiplying health by a factor that increases polynomialy is kind of insane.

[Cray]

56 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I left out shields because Corpus add their two scaling stats (Health and Shield) as opposed to Grinner multiplying the two, which is much worse.

Fair enough.

 

Quote

And modifiers are not really important because the modifiers are pretty much equal at all levels (okay, I know that modifiers against armor get more potent as level increases but that does not make huge difference).

Multiplier growth as a function of Corrosive Procs for my proverbial Bombard: (Link) Given that, I'd say they increase in potency as armor is stripped away, but I digress.

 

Quote

Toxin is for Corpus, and while they have the two fold scaling (as compared to Grineer's three fold) it is nowhere near as bad. And now on to corrosive procs... So what you are telling me that is that corrosive procs are the solution. Here is the problem with that, there are only a very small selection of weapons that are viable "status" weapons. You also can't really count the other sources of finisher damage because not everything can slash proc (very few high status+high slash weapons), only a few frames can reliably finisher, and not everyone can Trinity. You can play the "right tool for the job" only so much because without those things you are completely unable to do anything, making a large group of content worthless.

 

The thing is, these are all ways to get around the broken scaling, especially things like 4x CP. If you "need" 4x CP to do an extended Grineer mission there is an issue, nothing so specific as that should ever be necessary. This is especially true when compared to Corpus (I am pretty sure that Toxin is only marginally more useful if not less useful than Magnetic for Corpus, partially because of health scaling faster than shields) and Infested. Why is it that the Grineer scale so much better than these two other factions?

And don't forget that even though you are able to compensate by damaging the scaling elements, you are still "damaging" the exponentially scaling armor.

 

OF COURSE it is armor scaling that is broken, that is kind of the point of all of this. It is armor scaling that makes up for the vast majority of Grineer's increase in EHP. I could understand exponential scaling in health (but I think soft caps and nerfing Tenno damage scaling is the best solution) but multiplying health by a factor that increases polynomialy is kind of insane.

I see your point, and I agree that it is a little broken, but there does need to be at least some degree of preparation required to be effective against <Faction>, so a 'fix' isn't so simple.

 

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(I am pretty sure that Toxin is only marginally more useful if not less useful than Magnetic for Corpus, partially because of health scaling faster than shields)

Actually, I prefer Toxin to Magnetic for Corpus, especially in augmented shield sorties. I'll mod my pistol on Mesa to be pure Toxin, and Peacemaker melts everything. High-status Gas weapons are also effective, because Gas procs = Toxin DoTs. Mod the Boar Prime for Gas+Magnetic and nothing will get in your way. (Except Bursas, because they're evil fun)

 

Quote

What exactly did you use to do that math? I have a fancy excel sheet that does pretty good but it can't calculate in status chance. And Strun Wraith is probably the best status weapon because of innate multishot and 100% proc chance potential.

Custom program of my own creation. It's not all that user-friendly, and there's a few critical features missing (such as support for Burstfire and Continuous-fireweapons), otherwise I'd release it to the public.

In the land of Armor Stripping, Strun Wraith is King because it can reach 100% status in just 3 dual-stats, and can output several corrosive procs per shot (because with innate multishot weapons, 100% status = every pellet procs).

Boar Prime is arguably the Queen, as it does less damage for more CC.

Edited August 9, 2016 by DeltaPhantom

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

3 hours ago, Zyrgi said:

"Damage 3.0" is basically a nebulous term to include any and all possible future changes to the way we deal damage to enemies. If developers wanted more mid-length runs they could have just capped the maximum rotation amount to 2 C rotations or something instead of doing everything to make the gameplay miserable eg. Nullifiers, armor scaling, Bursas, etc. (and I don't mean they're totally bad, just need a little tweaking in terms of their TTK(time to kill) value.)

But with the way we're receiving updates and content I assume it's pretty hard to spend dev's time on figuring out the scaling thoroughly, so I wouldn't blame them. However if we get more repeatable content that doesn't get old that fast, similar to sorties and raids, that could keep the player base distracted, they might not need to release new weapons or something other for people to do while waiting for the changes, every week.

Tell that to DE =/ The way the game has been going it's gonna collapse under its own weight because they haven't done a single thing to look at old mechanics like scaling. You're right though, just pass TWW and then spend the rest of the time they aren't using on Nekros Prime to polish and fix what's already in the game, because RNGesus knows that there are legit problems that need solving, not band-aids