Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[Eldritchsqueaker]

11 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

I'm going to dump a bunch of proposed changes here.

General Changes

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• Base energy increased to 150.
• Base armor increased to 125.
• Passive: Now restores 15 health and additionally restores 5 energy.

Soul Punch

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• Deals Finisher damage based on the target's missing HP.

Terrify

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• Now applies a 50% slow (Creeping Terrify replaced or removed).

Desecrate

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• No longer provides loot.
  • Instead, Desecrated corpses explode, dealing Gas damage with a guaranteed proc.
    • Explosion chance is 100%.
    • Explosion damage scales with Strength mods, while radius increases with Range mods.
  • Health orb chance increased to 60-80%. 

Shadows of the Dead

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• Damage multiplier increased to 5.
• Health multiplier increased to 4.
• Recasting summons Shadows to Nekros's location, regardless of distance.
• Changed back to a Duration ability.
  • Recasting refreshes the duration. 
• Recasting cost proportionate to the total amount healed and/or number of resummoned Shadows. 

I think these are overall pretty conservative changes that would improve Nekros's gameplay quite substantially. So, thoughts?

Desecrate seems too situational to me, some sort of team buff maybe? I mean it'd only work if enemies are near bodies, Soul punch might be just a bit too powerful and terrify is well that's a pretty big change considering it replaces an augment.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)His 1st Shadow said:

But how would that increase duration, due to a grace period? They would still die in 30 seconds or less.

 

Id love for the health decay to be gone all together while still recasting and teleporting shadows.

But I'm not sure if they will do it or anything unless they give response. And if they keep it, I'd much rather a grace period. That way recasting is purely for relocating and responding to the decay icon appearing.

 

I for one am tired of aiming at shadows to check their health.

It is an indirect extension similar to how a higher energy pool is technically an indirect duration boost to toggles. Enemies simply wouldn't die to anything during the grace so it would act almost as a flat duration increase.

The health decay exists for reasons similar to my bursa example. Some high end enemies are just too darn good at absorbing blows from their own faction and as a result would take inordinate amounts of time to die naturally even if you didn't heal them.

[Gurpgork]

9 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Desecrate seems too situational to me, some sort of team buff maybe? I mean it'd only work if enemies are near bodies, Soul punch might be just a bit too powerful and terrify is well that's a pretty big change considering it replaces an augment.

With Desecrate, I was kinda thinking it would function a bit like Exploding Palm in Diablo 3; killing one enemy starts a chain reaction that can wipe out a whole bunch of enemies. I really felt like it would fit the whole Necromancer thing, making him more powerful as more enemies die. Making it a party buff might step into Pacify and Provoke territory, and I don't really think Nekros should do that.

That Soul Punch change might sound too powerful, but it only hits one enemy, and dependent on the exact amount of damage it does for every missing hitpoint, you could have to bring down an enemy to ~45% health to kill it. Meanwhile Landslide costs the same amount of energy and can one-shot everything all the way through sortie missions, and it has a reliable AoE effect.

I will admit that making Creeping Terrify inherent might be too big of a step, but it's an effect that should never have become an augment. Terrify has so many drawbacks (short range, target limit, requires all three power stats, high energy cost) that it doesn't make sense for it to force you to chase enemies. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Gurpgork

[Gurpgork]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Something that uses a unique and entirely different base, which is at the same time relatively easy to obtain and to build, has to be gamebreaking to work out for you? Carry on. 

It doesn't have to be gamebreaking, but it does have to be far stronger than it is to justify its existence, especially considering that those 2-4 mod slots go only to bandaiding the Warframe's significant shortcomings (poor energy pool, low survivability, high energy costs) rather than building on its strengths.

Also, grinding out syndicates isn't relatively easy. Nor is finding hundreds of R5 cores to level Equilibrium. 

All I'm saying is that if I have to do a fair bit of grinding just to make a build for one Warframe, I'd expect that Warframe to be far stronger than Nekros is right now, and that is especially true now that Shadows of the Dead has been significantly nerfed.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

Bandaiding

4 Mods

Litteraly a whole build

Is considered a banaid in your opinion?

 

Take any Frame

Look at any build

Look at any Mod

 

Would you consider this mod a banaid? Gtfo.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

4 Mods

Litteraly a whole build

Is considered a banaid in your opinion?

 

Take any Frame

Look at any build

Look at any Mod

 

Would you consider this mod a banaid? Gtfo.

You're just using the same argument over and over again and when people point out what's wrong with that, all you can do is say the same thing. No other builds or frames that I can think of have such a high ceiling of optimization needed to get them working, with some of the hardest to acquire and hardest to level mods.. that are only good on him. I don't understand how you don't see the problem with this at all.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Just now, Eldritchkitty said:

 same argument over and over 

The Argument is pointing out how everyone is exagerating.

 

Working abilitys rivaling Meta Frames are painted broken and underpowered

That they need mods, not Mods which take place for other important Mods but just need mods is considered bandaiding.

 

Necros had a underpowered ult and that aside a broken Kit for years and noone gave a single Frick but he needs work now that the loot is reduced? Gtfo. Seriously. Go play hydroid for your loot.

 

 

[Eldritchsqueaker]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The Argument is pointing out how everyone is exagerating.

 

Working abilitys rivaling Meta Frames are painted broken and underpowered

That they need mods, not Mods which take place for other important Mods but just need mods is considered bandaiding.

 

Necros had a underpowered ult and that aside a broken Kit for years and noone gave a single Frick but he needs work now that the loot is reduced? Gtfo. Seriously. Go play hydroid for your loot.

 

 

His ult is even more underpowered now. I didn't even mention the loot, even if I still do think Desecrate is worth half a skill now. It's not about needing mods, it's about the specific mods he needs.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Just now, Eldritchkitty said:

His ult is even more underpowered now. I didn't even mention the loot, even if I still do think Desecrate is worth half a skill now. It's not about needing mods, it's about the specific mods he needs.

Even more? Didn't See anyone complaining that it was underpowered for years

 

Ya know what I did See tho? People asking for a channeled desecrate.

Do you need to mention loot to be obvious about the Motive? Considering that noone cared about his ult FOR YEARS

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Even more? Didn't See anyone complaining that it was underpowered for years

 

Ya know what I did See tho? People asking for a channeled desecrate.

Do you need to mention loot to be obvious about the Motive? Considering that noone cared about his ult FOR YEARS

I haven't even been posting on the forum for years, I only recently started. You can't form a basis of an argument for something so petty like that.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

16 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

I haven't even been posting on the forum for years

Let me ask you, and everyone quoting me here then: would anyone consider these "issues" he apparently suffers from something new, did they arive with the Tweaks? Was He not relyant on health conversion/sos at the time the shadows did not generate Aggro?

Was SP ever any good?

Were the shadows, which hid in corners for years, LITTERALY, any frickin good?

 

It couldn't have taken you months to ..retrieve your password? Log into the forum? Figure out how this blue "e" works? May just be me living with his state for these past years but I'm quite satisfied with the fact that I get more loot for less interaction now as I play him the same way I ever did, by not spamming desecrate.

Edited August 19, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The Argument is pointing out how everyone is exagerating.

 

Working abilitys rivaling Meta Frames are painted broken and underpowered

That they need mods, not Mods which take place for other important Mods but just need mods is considered bandaiding.

 

Necros had a underpowered ult and that aside a broken Kit for years and noone gave a single Frick but he needs work now that the loot is reduced? Gtfo. Seriously. Go play hydroid for your loot.

 

 

They took something that was underachieving and made it worse.

If you take my old couch from out my living room and promise to fix it, ill be happy. If you being it back covered in ductape And half of it is missing, I might as well have kept the old couch.

Now I have have an uglier couch that is functionally worse sitting in my living room. But I thought you were going to reupholster it....

Edited August 19, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Even more? Didn't See anyone complaining that it was underpowered for years

 

Ya know what I did See tho? People asking for a channeled desecrate.

Do you need to mention loot to be obvious about the Motive? Considering that noone cared about his ult FOR YEARS

I cared about his ult, and it functioned well enough, but could have been better. Always complained about AI upgrades, do you wish for me to dig up nekros posts I made so you can see them? Or others other people made? Do a quick search, check the dates.

DE doesn't listen

Edited August 19, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit of an edit

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 minute ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

They took something that was underachieving and made it worse.

 

Fact is that the underachieving shadows have a more aggressive AI now (may just be due to the fact that they are forced into Battle now). Health Decay took the place of duration, theyr stay is still the same (or, in theory at least, ya know, as they ACTUALLY PULL AGGRO AND TAKE DAMAGE NOW, with the difference that you can Heal them now and that you're never unpretected when you use SoS.

-argubly better.

 

The only other thing there is would be desecrate.

 

Wha~, what exactly did they make worse? C'mon, we both know what it boils down to.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Fact is that the underachieving shadows have a more aggressive AI now (may just be due to the fact that they are forced into Battle now). Health Decay took the place of duration, theyr stay is still the same (or, in theory at least, ya know, as they ACTUALLY PULL AGGRO AND TAKE DAMAGE NOW, with the difference that you can Heal them now and that you're never unpretected when you use SoS.

-argubly better.

 

The only other thing there is would be desecrate.

 

Wha~, what exactly did they make worse? C'mon, we both know what it boils down to.

The limit to seven shadows, no eximus units. The change to just prioritizing heavies may not be a nerf, but everything else was wrong. And it is highly unlikely to me that this was for low end computers, I can't accept that, the math doesn't add up. The limit to 7 was only because that was nekros base summons And DE felt that was a necessary change without giving an actually credible reason like "we just felt like it"

And 7 shadows drawing aggro instead of say 14 is like mirage of hall of mirrors was changed to only spawn 2 mirrors with health decay...

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Maybe we got too greedy asking for easier loot, maybe this will be a lesson learned to everyone involved

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

 

And 7 shadows drawing aggro instead of say 14  that did not. In fact, lets say 14, that did as good as nothing

 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

If you played nekro, and 14 shadows did as good as nothing for you, than I Don't know what to say....

That would explain everything right there.

I just wanted would soul punch to be better like banshees 1, not the same thing though, and desecrate to be it's own ability and get loot through synergy with fear.

Any change to allow nekros to run around, hence toggle drain everyone got behind, one of many great solutions...

What DE did was way over the top when it comes to actually looking at pre rework nekros and how he played in game.

What was overpowered about him?

Edited August 19, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Fear

[Urlan]

While I appreciate that you are enjoying the new changes to Nekros, I would think that 'clearly' is probably not the word you want to use here. We here on PC have played quite a bit with the good bone-lord, and messed around with his rework before consoles even got it but recently. If we are talking about total time before hand, I would love to see the pictures and usage stats, I myself pride myself on my Oberon use but have quite a bit of time running around being the designated looter - would be delighted to see just how much more usage you have than me! Maybe its equal to my Oberon use! :)

On the topic of the changes themselves though, I like the toggle nature but I have found that in my 'not-clearly' superior Nekros usage that drops are less frequent so less meaningful overall to even have turned on while Shadows is mostly useless except for dedicated Shield of Shadows builds that focus strength and duration as the significant HP drain disintegrates my reduced and not pumped Shadow Squad. While it is true I can spam 4 to heal them, I would rather not trade one spam button for another all considered. So, while I consider Nekros still useful for looting in general as there aren't all that many options without augments - Ivara - I find that his overall effectiveness is less which is a shame, I was very fond of the toggle idea for Desecrate.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Overp...

Lets ask what was fine about him? The good combination between self-substain, heavy CC, tankiness and Utility (with a goddarn moving Snow globe)

 

The Snow globe actually attacks now and sustain became a nobrainer, what's definitly better.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Overp...

Lets ask what was fine about him? The good combination between self-substain, heavy CC, tankiness and Utility (with a goddarn moving Snow globe)

 

The Snow globe actually attacks now and sustain became a nobrainer, what's definitly better.

The globe is small and they don't always refresh it when you would wish they would. Also, while your inside the globe with them, you can't see if it's up or down.

That aside, you could get arctics before, and they attacked before. I will be frank with you, I have not updated Warframe yet. I might not for a while. Are you telling me that his ability to spawn eximus units is indeed still there and was not patched out? 

Yes, your chances of getting them would theoretically be higher and their damage output may be greater, but are you saying that every limit is ok because of one enemy that doesn't spawn on every map, is that correct?

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Working abilitys rivaling Meta Frames are painted broken and underpowered

Nekros doesn't exactly rival meta frames. Terrify is a worse CC than both Chaos and Bastille despite costing as much energy as both of them, and SotD hardly did any damage at all to high level enemies before our maximum minion count got nerfed by 65%. His damage reduction is also worse than most meta frames, needing 214% power strength to hit 90% damage reduction, something that other Warframes can beat easily with way less power strength and without needing an augment. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Necros had a underpowered ult and that aside a broken Kit for years and noone gave a single Frick but he needs work now that the loot is reduced?

Maybe people didn't care about his ult because they didn't want to go through the effort to get Despoil and max out Equilibrium, and it was significantly easier to just make a Desecrate spam build. Just saying.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Fact is that the underachieving shadows have a more aggressive AI now (may just be due to the fact that they are forced into Battle now). Health Decay took the place of duration, theyr stay is still the same (or, in theory at least, ya know, as they ACTUALLY PULL AGGRO AND TAKE DAMAGE NOW, with the difference that you can Heal them now and that you're never unpretected when you use SoS.

-argubly better.

Also, you said that it had been underpowered for years, but right here, you're trying to say that the ability is better now after the devs nuked the damage potential. It was underpowered before, yes, but it's more underpowered now. 

Yes, the aggro pull, the healing, and the recasting were all deserved changes. But having 7 shadows is worse than having 20 shadows, even if they were buffed to compensate for that change, since fewer Shadows get focused down by enemies more easily. Before, I'd have an entire group of enemies trying to fight off almost 20 Shadows, and no more than two or three were attacking each one, and if one of them died, I lost 5% of my damage potential instead of 14%. 

Moreover, health decay is objectively worse than duration, since before, the Shadows were just as strong after 29 seconds as they were after 1 second. Now, they've lost almost all of their health and can't tank anything after 29 seconds. Combined with the reduced number of Shadows and their increased aggro pull, each individual Shadow takes a significant hit to its life expectancy. The only reason that Shadows can last longer now is because we can heal them, which was something the ability needed before the number of Shadows got reduced. 

3 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Are you telling me that his ability to spawn eximus units is indeed still there and was not patched out? 

Actually, Nekros has never been able to summon Eximus units. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

10 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

 Chaos 

...

 

Also known as Russian Roulette

 

10 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

 

Actually, Nekros has never been able to summon Eximus units. 

^

Edited August 19, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Bizzaro21]

On 8/17/2016 at 4:09 PM, Kastorius said:

 it's actually more difficult now to run hybrid builds (Desecrate + SotD, for example),

i think im the only one running him with both powers and doing just fine and soloing 40+ mins of surv on sedna....

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

...

 

Also known as Russian Roulette

 

^

So what were you talking about a mobile snowglobe for????