The Elephant In The Room -- Tenno Power Creep And Nullies

[Nlim]

59 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

Yeah I remember quite well, Chaos could have an entire room kill itself while you stood there and watched... they nerfed it. Same with Nova, Molecular Prime worked very differently back then and has been nerfed since. The issue back then wasn't the Warframes it was the weak enemies. And don't get me started on trinity or Volt. All nerfed.

All of this existed prior to Nyx. You just happened to use Mags pull for an example which was never that powerful until the augment and Mesa, bad example. Her bullet attractor however was very powerful... nerfed. Rhino's Iron Skin and Stomp was a big deal back then... nerfed. Volt's Discharge used to actually kill everything... nerfed. Should I go on? All of this prior to Nyx. So yeah, it is true.

You have a very selective type of memory. Trinity was basicly buffed from one of the most useless to one of the most broken frames in the game (and in my opinion still is). Todays M. Prime is still way more powerful than anything we had prenyx.

I mean come on, the reason why stomp isn´t a big deal anymore is power creep - no one would care about the old stomp nowadays which is a perfect example for how powerful frames have become. You have to be delusional to think otherwise.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Nlim

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

Actually, this is not my problem.

Dunno, Nullifiying is like give me a knife, then give me a AK-47 and after all cut my hands down, couse "AK-47 is too stronk". And now you trying to explain why. Don't get me wrong, but i love my hands.

And there is no "power creep". This mean WFrames goes stronger and stronger, but this is not true.

True is this game always was so. Maybe not always, but after releasing corrupted mods. So, i dunno, but it is looks like we talk about game at all, how it bad and simple.

Anyway, you can play few mounth, this time you spend to get mods, frames and actually learning how to play.

Real problem is there is no more sence get max power frame. In Russian sub-forum already was done challenge (after spelling this words) for solo ending AXI fissure with MK1 weapon and Excalibur 0 lvl with maxlvl5 for any mod.

 

Dont get me wrong, your word have a sence, but my point is "this is actually a game". Yes, we can about nerf everything, but we can broke it at all. So better way is make WF more compex. Give to as content for real challenge to our posibilities. And nulifiers are just bad.

Edited August 27, 2016 by -JT-_-R3W1ND

[War-Zone]

1 minute ago, Nlim said:

You have a very selective type of memory. Trinity was basicly buffed from one of the most useless to one of the most broken frames in the game (and in my opinion still is). Todays M. Prime is still way more powerful than anything we had prenyx.

I mean come one the reason why stomp isn´t a big deal anymore is power creep - no one would care about the old stomp nowadays which is a perfect example for how powerful frames have become. You have to be delusional to think otherwise (which would explain why you claim that nyx and nova existed prior to Nyx O,o).

My examples that existed prior to Nyx was Rhino Volt and Trinity... in the second paragraph where I said "all of this existed prior to Nyx", try to keep up. Trinity was the only healer in the game and she was the most useless? Are we having the same conversation? I wouldn't call anyone delusional if I were you. I mentioned Nova because you did but never said it existed prior to Nyx. 

You mentioned Stomp but not Iron Skin of course, talk about selective. I guess you don't remember players camping spots in defense missions then survivals using Rhino... also a big deal back then.

And there's a good reason Nova was as powerful as she was and remained mostly unchanged, it was created by the design counsel. DE didn't want to piss off everyone that purchased the first PA all at one time. Frames have gotten weaker and will continue to do so until the devs think everything is where it needs to be. 

[Mastikator2]

25 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

Boring? The game was A LOT of fun prior to nullifiers. Nullifiers don't make the game less boring they just make you stop and think (for a quick second) as to how you plan on dealing with them. And in certain situations they can be annoying at best.  

We didn't have weapons like Tonkor before Nullifiers. The game used to be significantly less spiky.

Hell I remember a time when ammo was a concern.

[War-Zone]

7 minutes ago, Mastikator2 said:

We didn't have weapons like Tonkor before Nullifiers. The game used to be significantly less spiky.

Hell I remember a time when ammo was a concern.

I used the tonkor for 30 levels then sold it. The Tonkor was nothing compared to the fun of the Synapse and Volt prior to damage 2.0, for me... it was VERY spiky.

I remember when ammo was a concern too, that's why I had an ammo mutation mod in my synapse.

 

Edited August 27, 2016 by War-Zone

[Mastikator2]

5 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

I used the tonkor for 30 levels then sold it. The Tonkor was nothing compared to the fun of the Synapse and Volt prior to damage 2.0, for me... it was VERY spiky.

I remember when ammo was a concern too, that's why I had an ammo mutation mod in my synapse.

 

They haven't nerfed Synapse, it's not game breaking anymore. Power creep has made a previously game breaking weapon obsolete. The nullifier is the brake and as you've said it isn't even enough, it takes less than a second to kill it.

If anything they should BUFF the nullifier, bring back the old shock eximus too for that matter, make grineer shield lancer's shield bigger and immune to punch through, make the ballista invisible, make the infested ancient disruptor reflect abilities back on the warframe, etc.

[War-Zone]

1 minute ago, Mastikator2 said:

They haven't nerfed Synapse, it's not game breaking anymore. Power creep has made a previously game breaking weapon obsolete. The nullifier is the brake and as you've said it isn't even enough, it takes less than a second to kill it.

If anything they should BUFF the nullifier, bring back the old shock eximus too for that matter, make grineer shield lancer's shield bigger and immune to punch through, make the ballista invisible, make the infested ancient disruptor reflect abilities back on the warframe, etc.

I didn't say they nerfed the synapse. You said there wasn't spiky damage prior to the Tonkor and there was... Yeah it was game breaking but it existed.

But you and I don't agree, Everything you just mentioned only adds to the "annoying factor" of Warframe not an actual challenge as far as i'm concerned.
Do I wan't to be stun locked by shield lancers and bursas because they can't come up with a better challange? nope. That stuff is just pure annoyance.  

[Mastikator2]

2 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

I didn't say they nerfed the synapse. You said there wasn't spiky damage prior to the Tonkor and there was... Yeah it was game breaking but it existed.

But you and I don't agree, Everything you just mentioned only adds to the "annoying factor" of Warframe not an actual challenge as far as i'm concerned.
Do I wan't to be stun locked by shield lancers and bursas because they can't come up with a better challange? nope. That stuff is just pure annoyance.  

No I said " The game used to be significantly less spiky."

[War-Zone]

2 minutes ago, Mastikator2 said:

No I said " The game used to be significantly less spiky."

I hear ya, but before the Tonkor we had the Ogris and the Torid. I watched vids of people camping defense missions to stupid levels with the Torid back then.

[Mastikator2]

4 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

I hear ya, but before the Tonkor we had the Ogris and the Torid. I watched vids of people camping defense missions to stupid levels with the Torid back then.

The Ogris and Torid had self damage and people did quite often kill themselves. There was a trade of. With Tonkor there is no trade of, it deals more damage than either of those by an order of magnitude and there's no risk.

In addition to doing proportionally more damage we're also harder to kill, a second part of the equation you conveniently decided to ignore.

The game was significantly harder in many ways, damage spikyness is just one of those.

Edit- besides you don't even think the nullifier is a challenge, you said it yourself. It takes less than a second to slightly alter your strategy and then go back to totally massacre the entire map without breaking a sweat. So what is your problem with the nullifier if he's just a slight bump on the road?

Edited August 27, 2016 by Mastikator2

[War-Zone]

- deleted - forgot to quote.

Edited August 27, 2016 by War-Zone

[War-Zone]

20 minutes ago, Mastikator2 said:

The Ogris and Torid had self damage and people did quite often kill themselves. There was a trade of. With Tonkor there is no trade of, it deals more damage than either of those by an order of magnitude and there's no risk.

In addition to doing proportionally more damage we're also harder to kill, a second part of the equation you conveniently decided to ignore.

The game was significantly harder in many ways, damage spikyness is just one of those.

Edit- besides you don't even think the nullifier is a challenge, you said it yourself. It takes less than a second to slightly alter your strategy and then go back to totally massacre the entire map without breaking a sweat. So what is your problem with the nullifier if he's just a slight bump on the road?

You made a statement, "We didn't have weapons like Tonkor before Nullifiers" and yeah we did, regardless of weather it does self damage or not. And these weapons did crazy damage, but the system was different prior to damage 2.0. Damage and defense has changed all together.

I didn't conveniently ignore anything. you yourself didn't mention anything about "us" being harder to kill in your statement that I quoted... so why would I add that in if we're not discussing it?

[Mastikator2]

1 minute ago, War-Zone said:

You made a statement, "We didn't have weapons like Tonkor before Nullifiers" and yeah we did, regardless of weather it does self damage or not. And these weapons did crazy damage, but the system was different prior to damage 2.0. Damage and defense has changed all together.

I didn't conveniently ignore anything. you yourself didn't mention anything about "us" being harder to kill in your statement that I quoted... so why would I add that in if we're not discussing it?

Ogris is not like Tonkor. One of the most important aspects of Ogris is how you have to be careful where you aim, you have to play differently. With Tonkor that is not the case.

We did not have a weapon like Tonkor before Nullifiers. But we should've had nullifiers earlier since you are right in that power creep predates nullifiers by a lot. Since nullifiers have been added power creep has continued and it's high time we either roll back the power creep or buff the nullifiers.

If we severely reduced the damage spikyness AND the nigh invulnerability AND near limitless resources AND superior mobility then we can remove the crutch that is the Nullifiers.

[War-Zone]

1 minute ago, Mastikator2 said:

Ogris is not like Tonkor. One of the most important aspects of Ogris is how you have to be careful where you aim, you have to play differently. With Tonkor that is not the case.

We did not have a weapon like Tonkor before Nullifiers. But we should've had nullifiers earlier since you are right in that power creep predates nullifiers by a lot. Since nullifiers have been added power creep has continued and it's high time we either roll back the power creep or buff the nullifiers.

If we severely reduced the damage spikyness AND the nigh invulnerability AND near limitless resources AND superior mobility then we can remove the crutch that is the Nullifiers.

I'm comparing damage spikes. The orgis and Torid prior to nerfs were comparable to how the tonkor is today... we didn't say anything about play style or adverse effects, just spiky damage.

Yeah I think we started out powerful and continued to get more powerful then DE hit the breaks and went into reverse. To a certain extent I understand and agree with them (on some things) but it's getting carried away to me. I can go somewhere else and play a weak character that totes a gun and a knife. A "Warframe" is slowly loosing it's meaning to me.

I like a challenge but they have turned to straight power nullification, which I just can't agree with... why give it to us in the first place just so you can tell us when and how we should use our skills? 

Do we agree? no we don't. I enjoyed the power Warframes used to have. It's what drew me to this game, like alot of players. I'm just against power nullification as a whole.
 

[Pr0totype9979]

Tbh nullifiers are under powered in my eyes and are not even a threat, why in the hell are people whining about them. They're not hard to kill literally all you do is slide attack and they're dead. Our true issues lie with sapping Ospreys, those little pricks are literally more annoying than bombards and quite smart if I may add. They let the bursas do the distraction while those blue orbs of death pick us off in 2 pulses. Whining about nullies is pointless, bursas, bombards and sapping Ospreys are our real issues, don't forget scorches.

[Omnimorph]

I find Bursas a MUCH bigger challenge than Nullifiers.

It has to be said that Corpus are overloaded with "tricksy" mob types now, to the point that they're getting boring to wade through.

[Tesseract7777]

14 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

I'm comparing damage spikes. The orgis and Torid prior to nerfs were comparable to how the tonkor is today... we didn't say anything about play style or adverse effects, just spiky damage.

Yeah I think we started out powerful and continued to get more powerful then DE hit the breaks and went into reverse. To a certain extent I understand and agree with them (on some things) but it's getting carried away to me. I can go somewhere else and play a weak character that totes a gun and a knife. A "Warframe" is slowly loosing it's meaning to me.

I like a challenge but they have turned to straight power nullification, which I just can't agree with... why give it to us in the first place just so you can tell us when and how we should use our skills? 

Do we agree? no we don't. I enjoyed the power Warframes used to have. It's what drew me to this game, like alot of players. I'm just against power nullification as a whole.

I think there is a difficult balance to be had though. While I agree power nullification isn't fun and isn't really a good way to go with making things difficult/challenging, I do think that sometimes we have to be nerfed to ensure the game stays fun for us. Making enemies stronger only works so far, until they become too super powered and we don't feel as strong as we should. But if we feel too powerful, too many people will get bored. Because it doesn't feel like enough of a challenge. 

I think we need more enemies like manics/bursas and such (although not the nullie version) that can actually challenge us without taking our abilities away. I do think there are some warframe abilities that do still need to be toned down because they are too game breaking, but I don't want to take away the fun or not feel super powered -- we all want to feel that. But if we have more enemies that are a true challenge without nullification, then we may be able to keep warframe nerfs to a minimum, and still have balance and even get rid of nullifying powers. 

 

Edit: BTW, kind of random but the new nullifier change could almost be really good for a clever Sniper... if they get the target before the bubble starts growing... would make them really the true role of a sniper. Zooming in and finding the priority distance target and taking them out. 

Of course, nullies would still be an awful game mechanic, but just an interesting thought. 

 

Second edit: Comba and Scrambus are cancer. I don't know why people say there are somehow not as bad... their fields are invisible so you don't even know in a scrum most of the time if one is near until it starts its work... and you have no idea which kind of powers it will screw over and whether that will hurt your WF a lot or not... it's basically random. Terrible enemy design and an awful idea. 

Edited August 27, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[Mastikator2]

12 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

I'm comparing damage spikes. The orgis and Torid prior to nerfs were comparable to how the tonkor is today... we didn't say anything about play style or adverse effects, just spiky damage.

Yeah I think we started out powerful and continued to get more powerful then DE hit the breaks and went into reverse. To a certain extent I understand and agree with them (on some things) but it's getting carried away to me. I can go somewhere else and play a weak character that totes a gun and a knife. A "Warframe" is slowly loosing it's meaning to me.

I like a challenge but they have turned to straight power nullification, which I just can't agree with... why give it to us in the first place just so you can tell us when and how we should use our skills? 

Do we agree? no we don't. I enjoyed the power Warframes used to have. It's what drew me to this game, like alot of players. I'm just against power nullification as a whole.
 

They haven't gotten into reverse, even with nullifiers and bursas on missions it's still easier than it used to be. Because even if they fixed damage spikyness it would still be easier, damage spikyness is one out of many important variables.

[Pr0totype9979]

1 hour ago, Mastikator2 said:

 make the ballista invisible, make the infested ancient disruptor reflect abilities back on the warframe, etc.

Agreed with everything you said but this, seeing as how people make their abilities have pretty hard hitting DPS any stray shot from say mesa's peacemakers would insta kill you. This sounds like a good idea but it should work like trin's link but instead of reflecting full damage just do 60% back and 40% damage to the disruptor. As far as invisible ballistas make it last as long as ash's smoke screen and have them do extra damage while invisible. It would have a cool down btw.

Overall pretty good ideas but next time be more specific on how you think it would work

[Rakosta_Kai]

Everybody has good and respectable points in this thread.

...I would say that neither nerfing frames or nullifiers is the right route to go though at this point.

The core issue behind most of these complaints trend toward the notion that the general lack of challenge has prompted the Devs to add enemies utilizing a ridiculously over-powered/unfair mechanic to simulate the specter of challenge.

To me, this isn't merely a cause to "just nerf" as that path has been done to death over the years and never solved a thing.

For my part, I'd rather see:

• More difficulty levels added, with better reward chances to encourage players to go to them.
• A complete change of the summary system to encourage a co-op mindset amongst the players as opposed to the competitive one many enter group missions with now
• The ability to define difficulty levels and challenges in the missions. More risk should equal more reward though.
• Difficulty Ranking: This is where player skill (not MR) opens up mission options to players based on successful completion challenging mission types (not level based). A player could then conceivably be MR 22 but only be doing Difficulty Rank C missions whereas another player could be M. Rank 10 but be Difficulty Rank S because the like to run missions with different conditions and challenges applied. 

Side story: One of the most enjoyable runs I have had in this game after getting out of the newbie stages was the day that Nightmare Modes was fully introduced. The mission I was in was bugged and had Lowered Visibility, No MinMap, No Energy, No shields. While I had run that tileset dozens of times, it was like seeing a whole new one. The team worked together, the team stayed together (for the most part... one dude ran off, died, and aborted). But it was obvious that the whole team was more interested in completing the mission than they were with personal validation. 

As missions go it was both challenging and engaging without  the need of goofy enemy types with insta-gib mechanics. Likewise, it took away the ability to rely on powers at all times which forced attention to player skill, tactics, and positioning, and teamwork.

...All while giving decent rewards in the process for completing the mission.

 

There will be players who hate those ideas and that's OK... It takes all kinds to have a community.

But if others want to take on the challenges then a system should be in place to allow them to do so.

These are the kinds of things I would rather see put in place before someone else's status quo gets busted up in the interests of giving another player relevant challenge.

 

Simply put, most games work to either keep the starter area relevant or create mechanics that entice players to new areas for more challenge..

Most of this game amounts to a starter area difficulty-wise and DE needs to find new ways to make it relevant to players that want more challenge.

...That doesn't mean they should get rid of the starter area in the process though.

 

 

[War-Zone]

3 minutes ago, Mastikator2 said:

They haven't gotten into reverse, even with nullifiers and bursas on missions it's still easier than it used to be. Because even if they fixed damage spikyness it would still be easier, damage spikyness is one out of many important variables.

I see it differently. I don't think the game is easier now than it used to be. because when it comes down to it, what frame you're on can depend on a missions difficulty.

I'm on frost prime and nyx prime most of the time. Nyx can handle nullifiers and bursas quite easily, while frost can do it, the nerf to the globe sucks for him now and bursas are no problem for frost at all with the sancti tigris. But that's not the case for all frames. trying to get behind a bursa without a way to stop it in its tracks sucks. especially the denial bursa. 

I agree the damage spikes are important, but personally, I enjoy doing massive amounts of damage all at once. That makes the game fun for me. I have enough challenges in my real life that I have to deal with, to then come home to Warframe and get smacked around cause i'm nullified every mission.

[War-Zone]

54 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think there is a difficult balance to be had though. While I agree power nullification isn't fun and isn't really a good way to go with making things difficult/challenging, I do think that sometimes we have to be nerfed to ensure the game stays fun for us. Making enemies stronger only works so far, until they become too super powered and we don't feel as strong as we should. But if we feel too powerful, too many people will get bored. Because it doesn't feel like enough of a challenge. 

I think we need more enemies like manics/bursas and such (although not the nullie version) that can actually challenge us without taking our abilities away. I do think there are some warframe abilities that do still need to be toned down because they are too game breaking, but I don't want to take away the fun or not feel super powered -- we all want to feel that. But if we have more enemies that are a true challenge without nullification, then we may be able to keep warframe nerfs to a minimum, and still have balance and even get rid of nullifying powers. 

 

Edit: BTW, kind of random but the new nullifier change could almost be really good for a clever Sniper... if they get the target before the bubble starts growing... would make them really the true role of a sniper. Zooming in and finding the priority distance target and taking them out. 

Of course, nullies would still be an awful game mechanic, but just an interesting thought. 

I agree with you mostly here. There are certain nerfs to Warframes I was okay with and others not so much. But the issue is definitely balance which we obviously lack. We don't have a clear direction or definition of exactly how powerful Warframes are supposed to be and some nerfs just hurt or are a straight shock.. We don't even know what Warframes are made of yet. But taking power away from anyone is going to cause a problem.

For fun lets say I acquired Digital Extremes and said "hey DE Steve" you're the Video Game Director but from this point forward you will be the mail room director"... "hey, look at it this way, you're still a director, right?" I know this is obviously a silly and exaggerated hypothetical but it would suck for poor Steve probably or anyone. 

The sniper idea sounds cool but unfortunately this game isn't built for sniping or sniper rifles. I just wish they would make them at least useful for scanning for Kavats and now plants by slapping a scanner on every sniper rifle. I'd like to be able to scan and kill without having to switch. That would give me a reason to actually use one.

Edited August 27, 2016 by War-Zone

[War-Zone]

58 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Second edit: Comba and Scrambus are cancer. I don't know why people say there are somehow not as bad... their fields are invisible so you don't even know in a scrum most of the time if one is near until it starts its work... and you have no idea which kind of powers it will screw over and whether that will hurt your WF a lot or not... it's basically random. Terrible enemy design and an awful idea. 

I LOL'ed on this one. We agree here. I hate those things. After I kill one, I stand over it's corpse and continue to shoot it's limbs off until I feel better or until it disappears. 

[Hesyol]

Well to be frank we need big changes in frames powers. I'm so sick of seeing Embers steamrolling every low-level mission or Banshees in interceptions that won't let mobs even move and there many more. So we need a lot of nerfs anyway. Especially for aoe powers. After that I don't care if nullifiers stay or leave.

[Zarozian]

On 8/26/2016 at 5:05 PM, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

When I see nullies I see a challenge. It's a short break from endlessly mass murdering entire armies, yawn.

When I see Bursas I see a challenge.

When I see Hyenas I see a challenge.

When I see Combas I see a challenge.

When I see Juggernauts I see a challenge.

When I see Acolytes I see a challenge.

When I see Bombards I see a challenge.

When I see Drekar Manics and all of his manic cousins, I see a challenge.

When I see Sentient Conculysts & Battalysts. I see a challenge.

When I see Hunhow, Sentient Destroyer of Worlds, I see a challenge.

But when I see a Nullifier- all I see is a nuisance, a disappointment, wasted potential. The Nullfier could of been so much more, so much more creative like the Bursas and the Combas, rather than just a stupid bubble that cancels your abilities and blocks projectiles, making them bounce off, as well as making snipers and bows even more worthless. = w=

Not that I care enough though. I have no problems getting rid of a push over like a Nullifier.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Zarozian