body diversity in lady frames

[schilds]

Orokin frame designers were definitely perverts, obsessed with the strange and grotesque :-P.

[Azrael]

8 minutes ago, ToaSirian said:

This again? There are plenty of arguments on why this is just bloody ridiculous...

And yet you provide none of them. I honestly can't think of any reasons why this is "bloody ridiculous." Is Rhino "bloody ridiculous?"

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

Thing is, heavy armour on a female, would...look like heavy armour on a male anyway...Least, supposed one does it right. Much as sure, awesome...People will either complain heartily that it's not really female unless it has unnecessary "breast plate" going on...Or complain that it's not "actual" physical bulk.

Well, you don't know if you don't try, right?

People who complain that a female frame is poorly design solely because it doesnt "look female" are really just trying to impose gender stereotypes on representations.

And, honestly, non-physical bulk is better than no bulk at all.

[tyranno66]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

1)Again, even if it is armor, why not put bulky one of females?

2)Yeah... that is such a forced argument.

First, gender norms that exist in this society are not the same that exist on others. Specially aesthethical ones, norms tend to vary greatly.

Admitting that just because the orokin were conservative, they were our type of conservative it's simply stretching yourself too thin.

This is specially true considering Operator customization options: unlike the frames, operators are true orokin offspring. If your theory was correct, you would expect gender based garments and hairs, and all of them quite bland.

 What happens is quite the contrary. Both male and female operators have access to the exactly same garnment, and the exact same (quite madly) hair cuts.

If anything, this induces that orokin found beauty in extravagance... and, therefor, that perhaps bulky female frames could also be considered "beautiful".

 

I admit that I did not take operators into account and I may very well be super wrong about that.

However, as @Blakrana quite elegantly put it:

4 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

Thing is, heavy armour on a female, would...look like heavy armour on a male anyway...Least, supposed one does it right. Much as sure, awesome...People will either complain heartily that it's not really female unless it has unnecessary "breast plate" going on...Or complain that it's not "actual" physical bulk.

Really, there's no winning the argument. It's a complicated issue that is...honestly, not something I think anyone's going to resolve on a game forum in a satisfactory manner.

I am in no way opposed to more bulky female frames. I am opposed to however if said frames were as bulky as rhino or chroma.

[tnccs215]

2 minutes ago, senatorspade said:

Exactly. Back then, it was very desirable to have a large build because it meant you were wealthy and well fed. 

That's one good case. Nowadays, thinness is seen as a good thing, because it shows you are healthy, capable, and have enough monetary income to buy healthy food. centuries ago, were you fat, you'd be considered the apogee of beauty; because it showed you had wealth and power.

[tyranno66]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

That's one good case. Nowadays, thinness is seen as a good thing, because it shows you are healthy, capable, and have enough monetary income to buy healthy food. centuries ago, were you fat, you'd be considered the apogee of beauty; because it showed you had wealth and power.

And as you said, we don't know what the Orokin believed, so it can be either-or. I'm personally inclined to think that they preferred thinness because of our current female frames.

[tnccs215]

1 minute ago, tyranno66 said:

I am in no way opposed to more bulky female frames. I am opposed to however if said frames were as bulky as rhino or chroma.

Can't see why. As you said it yourself, it's just armor and muscles.

Frames aren't human, so there is no reason for a female frame not to be as muscular as a male one. And there also isn't a reason for them not to have as much armor as them.

All in all, no reason for them not to be as bulky as them. Specially as Chroma, who in fact isnt that bulky at all.

[Azrael]

4 minutes ago, tyranno66 said:

I am opposed to however if said frames were as bulky as rhino or chroma.

Why? What would be wrong about that?

[tyranno66]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Can't see why. As you said it yourself, it's just armor and muscles.

Frames aren't human, so there is no reason for a female frame not to be as muscular as a male one. And there also isn't a reason for them not to have as much armor as them.

All in all, no reason for them not to be as bulky as them. Specially as Chroma, who in fact isnt that bulky at all.

Basically because DE has an outstanding record with having the frames have realistic body proportions. I don't think we should brush that off just for the sake of tokenism.

EDIT: This applies to @Azrael's response too.

Edited October 9, 2016 by tyranno66

[tnccs215]

Just now, tyranno66 said:

And as you said, we don't know what the Orokin believed, so it can be either-or. I'm personally inclined to think that they preferred thinness because of our current female frames.

I used it to show how gender norms vary over time.

As I said, and basing myself off of operator's customization and the stylistic variety of frames, it is much more likely the Orokin found beauty in unique extravagance; and that they were egalitarian. After all, we do have an almost equal amount of male and female frames (a balance disturbed by Nezha and Wukong, but the music frame will balance things out), even though female body types are aren't varied at all, both male and female frames do have extravagant and unique designs; and even though it doesn't give that much info, we cannot see any enforcement of gender norms from the various text logs about Orokin. 

Think 1st District, from Hunger Games: beauty is not a style, it is a concept: "extravagant uniqueness".

[tyranno66]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

I used it to show how gender norms vary over time.

As I said, and basing myself off of operator's customization and the stylistic variety of frames, it is much more likely the Orokin found beauty in unique extravagance; and that they were egalitarian. After all, we do have an almost equal amount of male and female frames (a balance disturbed by Nezha and Wukong, but the music frame will balance things out), even though female body types are aren't varied at all, both male and female frames do have extravagant and unique designs; and even though it doesn't give that much info, we cannot see any enforcement of gender norms from the various text logs about Orokin. 

Think 1st District, from Hunger Games: beauty is not a style, it is a concept: "extravagant uniqueness".

Yeah I could see that but the point in which you say that females have no body diversity- just compare nova to valkyr. It's just that irl fit females don't have a lot of body diversity due to biology (which I already said)

[Blakrana]

7 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Well, you don't know if you don't try, right?

People who complain that a female frame is poorly design solely because it doesnt "look female" are really just trying to impose gender stereotypes on representations.

Generally agree. Provided we have something which is compelling in its own right, doesn't end up being tokenism and has an actual function within the setting, all good. So long as that is there, I really don't care too much.

[tnccs215]

4 minutes ago, tyranno66 said:

Basically because DE has an outstanding record with having the frames have realistic body proportions. I don't think we should brush that off just for the sake of tokenism.

EDIT: This applies to @Azrael's response too.

Again, Rhino, Inaros, Nekros and Atlas. Hell, even Limbo, with that lumpy back of his.

Those "realistic body proportions" only really exist in female frames.

Goes beyond realism tbh. Even though I cited the most extreme, I do admit every other male frame tend to be a bit more "realistic"

However, even in that realism, there is a great variety. 

Vauban is bulky and large without being fat nor athletic. Loki isn't exactly the most fit guy around, and Oberon has those skinny arms and some belly. Ash is well built, but undefined, 

Female frames, on the other hand... the only ones that are a bit more varied are Nova, with a relatively more round bum; Mirage and Titania, which are skinnier; and Saryn, which is "sexier". Every other female frames has pretty much the same body. Skinny, elegant, big touchy. No unfit (but not fat) one, no nothing.

so yeah. even in terms of "realistic variety", female frames still loose versus male.

[tnccs215]

Just now, Blakrana said:

Generally agree. Provided we have something which is compelling in its own right, doesn't end up being tokenism and has an actual function within the setting, all good. So long as that is there, I really don't care too much.

Like this? 

 

[Sloan441]

They vary enough...and so do the male 'frames.

A fair number of the female 'frames deviate enough from human norms to seriously make you wonder exactly what's under the steel shell (and that you might not want to know...). Banshee, Zephyr, and Titania all have very inhuman features--disturbingly so.

The male 'frames range from bruisers like Rhino and Ash, to your basic ectomorph like Limbo.

The female 'frames range from being worthy of bomber nose art like Saryn to your basic ectomorph like Mag.

Seems about right.

[tyranno66]

Just now, tnccs215 said:

Again, Rhino, Inaros, Nekros and Atlas. Hell, even Limbo, with that lumpy back of his.

Those "realistic body proportions" only really exist in female frames.

Goes beyond realism tbh. Even though I cited the most extreme, I do admit every other male frame tend to be a bit more "realistic"

However, even in that realism, there is a great variety. 

Vauban is bulky and large without being fat nor athletic. Loki isn't exactly the most fit guy around, and Oberon has those skinny arms and some belly. Ash is well built, but undefined, 

Female frames, on the other hand... the only ones that are a bit more varied are Nova, with a relatively more round bum; Mirage and Titania, which are skinnier; and Saryn, which is "sexier". Every other female frames has pretty much the same body. Skinny, elegant, big touchy. No unfit (but not fat) one, no nothing.

so yeah. even in terms of "realistic variety", female frames still loose versus male.

Point is- those are still ones that can be said to be relatively healthy (and are still realistic body types). A female frame as bulky as rhino is stretching it. Otherwise I wouldn't mind a frame that has the build of banshee delux one bit.

[tnccs215]

Just now, tyranno66 said:

Point is- those are still ones that can be said to be relatively healthy (and are still realistic body types). A female frame as bulky as rhino is stretching it. Otherwise I wouldn't mind a frame that has the build of banshee delux one bit.

I don't see why. there is place for unrealistic body proportions in this game. The frames I listed are proof of that. Why not for female too?

And yeah, I suppose having one a bit "larger" like banshee would be cool... though, god was there a sh!tstorm when she came around.

[Blakrana]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Like this? 

 

Hmm...Honestly, seems okay. No strong feelings either way I'm afraid.

[tyranno66]

7 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I don't see why. there is place for unrealistic body proportions in this game. The frames I listed are proof of that. Why not for female too?

And yeah, I suppose having one a bit "larger" like banshee would be cool... though, god was there a sh!tstorm when she came around.

Well they aren't really unrealistic actually. There are bodies like that which can be achieved fairly easily (why any man would want to look like Nekros on the other hand is another topic). Female body types are generally more restricted to not-as-large because of simple biology and DE makes frames that are in what I call "functional range"(read- not obese). With females that range is smaller and that sucks but such is life. As for the community reaction- yeah it was bad but I think it was mostly to do with how the end result didn't match the concept art all that much.

Edited October 9, 2016 by tyranno66

[tnccs215]

7 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

doesn't end up being tokenism

Im gonna say something a bit conflictuous in here, but in this case, I really don't see the problem with making a character for the sake of "tokenism". There is no real reason not to, since it's quite obvious that aesthetics>logic in this game; and it would be one frame that no one would be forced to play made to appeal to an audience that obviously exists.

One can call it tokenism, but honestly... I think it's just smart, ethical business.

[tyranno66]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Im gonna say something a bit conflictuous in here, but in this case, I really don't see the problem with making a character for the sake of "tokenism". There is no real reason not to, since it's quite obvious that aesthetics>logic in this game; and it would be one frame that no one would be forced to play made to appeal to an audience that obviously exists.

One can call it tokenism, but honestly... I think it's just smart, ethical business.

Well we see it as bad simply because it's there just for those people. It kinda smells of special treatment and entitlement. I also think that anyone should have the choice to add or not add something to their piece of art without facing any really big repercussions. Basically DE should release a "fat" frame because they want to and have an unique idea behind it instead of doing it just to appease the public.

[tnccs215]

Just now, tyranno66 said:

Well they aren't really unrealistic actually. There are bodies like that which can be achieved fairly easily (why any man would want to look like Nekros on the other hand is another topic).

Dude, trust me: the only way to look like atlas is to be a headless giant.

And Rhino demands impossible proportions that are literally impossible for a human to have. 

With all due respet: that statement is simply untrue. And, if anything, there is always bulky armor.

2 minutes ago, tyranno66 said:

Female body types are generally more restricted to not-as-large because of simple biology and DE makes frames that are in what I call "functional range"(read- not obese). With females that range is smaller and that sucks but what can we do?

ehrm....

Partially true. Truth is, and as I said, while there are exceptions, male frames tend to be spread much more along that "functional range" than female frames.

[tnccs215]

1 minute ago, tyranno66 said:

Well we see it as bad simply because it's there just for those people. It kinda smells of special treatment and entitlement. I also think that anyone should have the choice to add or not add something to their piece of art without facing any really big repercussions. Basically DE should release a "fat" frame because they want to and have an unique idea behind it instead of doing it just to appease the public.

Meh, this game is already for pretty much "everyone" except people who want more bulky female frames. Were this game only about bulky females than yes, I'd agree. but no one's asking for that, we are asking for one.

Plus, we are asking, not demanding. And the fact that a lot of people will be pleased with this is actually a good enough reason for many people to do it. 

As much as I like to treat games as art, they do have its facet as a "product". And so, unless it goes against your most extreme philosophies, sometimes doing something because your audience is asking isn't that much of a bad idea.

[tyranno66]

Just now, tnccs215 said:

Dude, trust me: the only way to look like atlas is to be a headless giant.

And Rhino demands impossible proportions that are literally impossible for a human to have. 

With all due respet: that statement is simply untrue. And, if anything, there is always bulky armor.

ehrm....

Partially true. Truth is, and as I said, while there are exceptions, male frames tend to be spread much more along that "functional range" than female frames.

I agree with the second part and some of the first part (which is just pedantic at this point). I think I speak for the community in saying that nobody would be against female frames being spread along that "functional range", it's just that the way OP worded it made it sound more like they want frames outside said "functional range".

[tnccs215]

Just now, tyranno66 said:

I agree with the second part and some of the first part (which is just pedantic at this point). I think I speak for the community in saying that nobody would be against female frames being spread along that "functional range", it's just that the way OP worded it made it sound more like they want frames outside said "functional range".

Once more, I am fine with both things: more female frames stretched through that range, and more outside of it.

Truthfully though, you are right: we are just repeating ourselves here, and we obviously reached a point were we simply must agree to disagree-- even though I still think I'm more right.

None of us is going to change their mind on this, not in here at least; and while I'm incredibly grateful that this thread didn't spiraled down to idiotic exchanges of fallacies, I think I'm going to leave just to ensure that I'm not here if it ends up doing so.

Thank you all very much for the conversation; and once more: best of lucks for you, @senatorspade.