body diversity in lady frames

[tyranno66]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Meh, this game is already for pretty much "everyone" except people who want more bulky female frames. Were this game only about bulky females than yes, I'd agree. but no one's asking for that, we are asking for one.

Plus, we are asking, not demanding. And the fact that a lot of people will be pleased with this is actually a good enough reason for many people to do it. 

As much as I like to treat games as art, they do have its facet as a "product". And so, unless it goes against your most extreme philosophies, sometimes doing something because your audience is asking isn't that much of a bad idea.

Yeah, that's very subjective and ultimately up to the devs. We're just stating what it would look like to us if something like that were to happen and disagreeing with it. It's very much up to personal ethics on whether they should or shouldn't do that.

[tnccs215]

Just now, tyranno66 said:

Yeah, that's very subjective and ultimately up to the devs. We're just stating what it would look like to us if something like that were to happen and disagreeing with it. It's very much up to personal ethics on whether they should or shouldn't do that.

Well, no harm in asking, and they have yet to show hostility to this idea.

They even stood their ground with Banshee's skin, despite the massive backlash, so they might not be that opposed to the idea.

[tyranno66]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Once more, I am fine with both things: more female frames stretched through that range, and more outside of it.

Truthfully though, you are right: we are just repeating ourselves here, and we obviously reached a point were we simply must agree to disagree-- even though I still think I'm more right.

None of us is going to change their mind on this, not in here at least; and while I'm incredibly grateful that this thread didn't spiraled down to idiotic exchanges of fallacies, I think I'm going to leave just to ensure that I'm not here if it ends up doing so.

Thank you all very much for the conversation; and once more: best of lucks for you, @senatorspade.

No problem- I share a lot of the same sentiments with you but some things are just too subjective. Thanks for the constructive and polite exchange and I hope you have a good day :)

[Blakrana]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Im gonna say something a bit conflictuous in here, but in this case, I really don't see the problem with making a character for the sake of "tokenism". There is no real reason not to, since it's quite obvious that aesthetics>logic in this game; and it would be one frame that no one would be forced to play made to appeal to an audience that obviously exists.

One can call it tokenism, but honestly... I think it's just smart, ethical business.

I could make the same argument about the lack of Left-handed Frames. Or the lack of ability to give my Operator Vitiligo (_{improve the Hair Texture DE, white don't look white}). Or the lack of...you get the picture.

Honestly my issue with Tokenism is that it's functionally shallow. It's no more than pandering to a group to give the impression you care whilst you take their money. It's not a result of having something being 'yeah, they just happen to be x' or such. Kanji of Persona 4 is a compelling character in his own right, not because he's Homosexual for example. I like Hiccup of How To Train Your Dragon due to the subtle way they actually played with his left-handedness, making his character more relate-able for me as I'd been there before personally.

So my argument is more that, if we're going to have a bulkier female frame, she needs to exist for more than to appeal to those of that aesthetic interest/preference/whatever. Characters, even if they are no more than Morphs, to borrow Eclipse Phase parlance, should be treated with more care than a thin veiled attempt to look like you 'care' about a group of people. Tokenism is unappealing due to the lack of depth it carries with it.

If you're going to represent anyone, anything...do it with respect and fairness. Short-changing something then acting like you did it justice is an insult, especially if it's then used as a shield against criticism. Tokenism is the opposite of what people should want, as it just...reduces it to a caricature.

Granted, this is all how I view Tokenism so I apologise for the bias contained above.

[Azrael]

43 minutes ago, tyranno66 said:

Basically because DE has an outstanding record with having the frames have realistic body proportions. I don't think we should brush that off just for the sake of tokenism.

EDIT: This applies to @Azrael's response too.

I'm not sure I understand this completely. Real life women often have bulkier proportions, how would a bulkier frame be unrealistic? There are plenty of female athletes with bulkier frames than what we have.

 

7 minutes ago, tyranno66 said:

No problem- I share a lot of the same sentiments with you but some things are just too subjective. Thanks for the constructive and polite exchange and I hope you have a good day :)

Whoa, polite and constructive? Where am I? I could have sworn I was on the forums, but that can't be right....  :)     (I kid , I kid...)

[senatorspade]

1 minute ago, Blakrana said:

I could make the same argument about the lack of Left-handed Frames. Or the lack of ability to give my Operator Vitiligo (_{improve the Hair Texture DE, white don't look white}). Or the lack of...you get the picture.

Honestly my issue with Tokenism is that it's functionally shallow. It's no more than pandering to a group to give the impression you care whilst you take their money. It's not a result of having something being 'yeah, they just happen to be x' or such. Kanji of Persona 4 is a compelling character in his own right, not because he's Homosexual for example. I like Hiccup of How To Train Your Dragon due to the subtle way they actually played with his left-handedness, making his character more relate-able for me as I'd been there before personally.

So my argument is more that, if we're going to have a bulkier female frame, she needs to exist for more than to appeal to those of that aesthetic interest/preference/whatever. Characters, even if they are no more than Morphs, to borrow Eclipse Phase parlance, should be treated with more care than a thin veiled attempt to look like you 'care' about a group of people. Tokenism is unappealing due to the lack of depth it carries with it.

If you're going to represent anyone, anything...do it with respect and fairness. Short-changing something then acting like you did it justice is an insult, especially if it's then used as a shield against criticism. Tokenism is the opposite of what people should want, as it just...reduces it to a caricature.

Granted, this is all how I view Tokenism so I apologise for the bias contained above.

I agree that the reason behind something should not be empty. It should mean something. But I really feel that large body types should be normalized in society, because it is a normal thing. I don't think anybody wants a fat warframe that is a sumo wrestler and does body slams or some horrible offensive stereotype. Nor should the character's weight make up their story. I'm not quite sure how to put it. 

[tyranno66]

Just now, Azrael said:

I'm not sure I understand this completely. Real life women often have bulkier proportions, how would a bulkier frame be unrealistic? There are plenty of female athletes with bulkier frames than what we have.

 

Whoa, polite and constructive? Where am I? I could have sworn I was on the forums, but that can't be right....  :)     (I kid , I kid...)

If you look at the other replies in the last page I expanded more on it. I generally wouldn't mind bulkier proportions unless they're overdone.

[Azrael]

5 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

So my argument is more that, if we're going to have a bulkier female frame, she needs to exist for more than to appeal to those of that aesthetic interest/preference/whatever. Characters, even if they are no more than Morphs, to borrow Eclipse Phase parlance, should be treated with more care than a thin veiled attempt to look like you 'care' about a group of people. Tokenism is unappealing due to the lack of depth it carries with it.

Now THIS I agree with, 100%. But I don't think anybody is asking for pure unadulterated tokenism. I think that if enough people show support for the idea, then it's more likely that DE will come up with a well designed and perfectly valid frame with a heavier female body. Before we can come up with a bulkier female frame that isn't pure tokenism, we need to agree that such a goal is desirable at all.

 

 

[tyranno66]

1 minute ago, senatorspade said:

I agree that the reason behind something should not be empty. It should mean something. But I really feel that large body types should be normalized in society, because it is a normal thing. I don't think anybody wants a fat warframe that is a sumo wrestler and does body slams or some horrible offensive stereotype. Nor should the character's weight make up their story. I'm not quite sure how to put it. 

I think something like body type or any other deviation from the norm (note that I use "norm" as "general population", not to imply something's wrong with those people) shouldn't be the only thing that is unique to the character- it should be simply just another facet of their personality.

[senatorspade]

1 minute ago, tyranno66 said:

If you look at the other replies in the last page I expanded more on it. I generally wouldn't mind bulkier proportions unless they're overdone.

nobody said they should be overdone though? Rhino isn't even overdone. 

[Wolfdoggie]

If men get Hydroid then it's only fair that female get a frame with similar body type as him. ._.

[tyranno66]

1 minute ago, Azrael said:

Now THIS I agree with, 100%. But I don't think anybody is asking for pure unadulterated tokenism. I think that if enough people show support for the idea, then it's more likely that DE will come up with a well designed and perfectly valid frame with a heavier female body. Before we can come up with a bulkier female frame that isn't pure tokenism, we need to agree that such a goal is desirable at all.

 

 

Honestly I don't think that the general puplic would despise such and idea- just don't make it look like being bulkier is such a big deal.

[tyranno66]

1 minute ago, senatorspade said:

nobody said they should be overdone though? Rhino isn't even overdone. 

Yeah well the way you worded it implied that that is what you think. This is the thing a lot of people are arguing against here.

[SamareRein]

2 hours ago, senatorspade said:

ah, see but there are plenty of fat people in this world that are healthy and fit. It is a bad stereotype that fit = slim. And I'm sure these people would love to have characters to identify with, especially women who are excessively criticised for their appearance. 

As a woman that's been "excessively criticized" for my appearance despite being the healthiest in my family medical-wise, no, I DON'T want 'larger female warframes'. I want super in shape, well defined, and sometimes outright adorable (here's looking at you Nova Prime) female warframes like what we already have. if I wanted a buff frame, I'd switch to Rhino or Atlas.

[senatorspade]

1 minute ago, tyranno66 said:

Yeah well the way you worded it implied that that is what you think. This is the thing a lot of people are arguing against here.

That's how you percieved it, not how I implied it. 

[tyranno66]

1 minute ago, senatorspade said:

That's how you percieved it, not how I implied it. 

That's how a lot of people perceived it. I think it's just a combination of less than perfect wording and the inherent looseness of the english language as a whole.

[senatorspade]

1 minute ago, SamareRein said:

As a woman that's been "excessively criticized" for my appearance despite being the healthiest in my family medical-wise, no, I DON'T want 'larger female warframes'. I want super in shape, well defined, and sometimes outright adorable (here's looking at you Nova Prime) female warframes like what we already have. if I wanted a buff frame, I'd switch to Rhino or Atlas.

I'm sorry your family has treated you that way. But you are listening to people who don't accept body diversity, and you're letting that impact your vision of an ideal body type. Maybe the idea doesn't appeal to you, I'm not saying you have to like it- I'm just saying that a lot of people are looking to find acceptance and comfort in characters they can relate to. 

[Azrael]

8 minutes ago, tyranno66 said:

I think something like body type or any other deviation from the norm (note that I use "norm" as "general population", not to imply something's wrong with those people) shouldn't be the only thing that is unique to the character- it should be simply just another facet of their personality.

I'm not so sure that bulkier women are necessarily "deviations from the norm." I think they are quite common and normal. But I agree (as I said) with the idea that the frame shouldn't be based around being bulky. That would be tokenism.

[senatorspade]

2 minutes ago, tyranno66 said:

That's how a lot of people perceived it. I think it's just a combination of less than perfect wording and the inherent looseness of the english language as a whole.

Where did a lot of people percieve that? I was only making comparisons to the male warframes. I'm not saying the lady frames should be bigger than them, or anything like that. 

[Azrael]

6 minutes ago, SamareRein said:

As a woman that's been "excessively criticized" for my appearance despite being the healthiest in my family medical-wise, no, I DON'T want 'larger female warframes'. I want super in shape, well defined, and sometimes outright adorable (here's looking at you Nova Prime) female warframes like what we already have. if I wanted a buff frame, I'd switch to Rhino or Atlas.

Totally understandable. But remember that we aren't talking about making the existing frames bulkier, so you'll still have your Nova. It's just that we have Rhino, Atlas, Chroma, Hydroid, and maybe even frost, with no female counterparts to any of those.

[Ahcruna]

8 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

If men get Hydroid then it's only fair that female get a frame with similar body type as him. ._.

Hydroid body isn't a bulky or fat though, it's mostly all the accessories on him
he is supposed to have that baggy buccaneer look.

On a side note, I hate all his gear! it clips with almost every Syandana in the game :(



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There was a hole here, now it's gone. I guess...  (╯°Д°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[senatorspade]

Just now, Azrael said:

Totally understandable. But remember that we aren't talking about making the existing frames bulkier, so you'll still have your Nova. It's just that we have Rhino, Atlas, Chroma, Hydroid, and maybe even frost, with no female counterparts to any of those.

Exactly. You're not losing anything from this. There's more to choose from. You're not forced to use any frame if you don't like it. 

[tyranno66]

Just now, senatorspade said:

Where did a lot of people percieve that? I was only making comparisons to the male warframes. I'm not saying the lady frames should be bigger than them, or anything like that. 

Well generally the male frames would be "bigger" than females because of sexual dimorphism. The way it was worded made it sound like you want to go the extra mile and have female frames that are exessively large just so that they are like the male ones.

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, senatorspade said:

Where did a lot of people percieve that? I was only making comparisons to the male warframes. I'm not saying the lady frames should be bigger than them, or anything like that. 

I didn't get that at all. I was surprised when people were arguing against that. I was like, "okay then?"

[Blakrana]

4 minutes ago, senatorspade said:

I'm not quite sure how to put it. 

Best way I have to sum up things is looking at character design in a 'matter of fact' manner.

In my own case, a character concept I settled on for an MH fic I am/was sort of planning to do had the main character's appearance become the result of my (limited) research into morphology; native of an arctic environment, favoured two heavy weapons (GL & SA), so she ended up having 'Stocky/Stout' appended to the 'Build' part of the notes. Just a statement of fact, not the only relevant thing about her.

One line, compared to the...thirty or so about the rest going on with her.

2 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Now THIS I agree with, 100%. But I don't think anybody is asking for pure unadulterated tokenism. I think that if enough people show support for the idea, then it's more likely that DE will come up with a well designed and perfectly valid frame with a heavier female body. Before we can come up with a bulkier female frame that isn't pure tokenism, we need to agree that such a goal is desirable at all.

Yeah, in all honesty my comment is more a result of the other threads on the matter I've seen before, where it was just...literally no deeper thought than personal preference.

"That's nice but..." is my general response there. Give me an interesting idea that 'just so happens' to have that aesthetic and I'm far more likely to pay heed as that's what I want to see more of. When the idea starts and ends with 'I like this'...Eh.