give us infinite ammo

[NightBlitz]

1 hour ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

The at the very least we can agree that infinite ammo is not "out-of-place" in warframe.

no, in general it IS out of place. the only reason it works in aw as it does, is because its AW. just because something works in AW doesnt mean it works in regular modes. honestly if you've played any AW at all, you should be able to see why it'd only work there

[jajuhby]

(enjoying the show)

[Rhekemi]

Why topics like this persist, and why not to let it die:

Aside from watching trainwrecks (which this isn't yet), people love a good debate. Or to see a bad argument, case, point, or suggestion get destroyed in a good debate. We also like seeing how well the person making the initial argument does.

Why insults have no place in debate:

I can see why calling an idea "stupid" could sting, and be reported. I've called a concept lazy (because it was) while offering a lot of other helpful advice here and still gotten in trouble for the word "lazy".

I prefer to be blunt sometimes, but it can be poorly received.

The point is not everyone will take an insult to their concept or suggestion as just some dust on their shoulder. Best to avoid it and use tact where you can.

What are absolutely detrimental to good debates are personal insults. If you don't see the point of this thread and think it's trolling, step out of it and let those who want to participate continue.

But stop implying that the OP is stupid, or calling him/her that outright. Stop saying he needs help.

It ain't right, he hasn't attacked you, and if his topic insults your intelligence, leave, report it and let the mods decide, or destroy his arguments with logic and counter-arguments.

Why unlimited ammo is a bad idea in Warframe:

Ammo conservation and consumption are mechanics that work to balance video games, ensure difficulty, and encourage loadout variety.

It is working as intended, and as many have told you, there are several methods to increase a weapon's ammo efficiency.

We prefer these methods because they keep weapons, builds, and mods we have invested time, effort and (in some cases) money in viable.

I do understand that you don't like ammo restores and would like them removed, but changing the entire system to run on unlimited ammo is an unnecessary, game-wide rework that solves a very small annoyance.

Again, running out of ammo is a small annoyance on a select few weapons, and only a serious problem in select conditions (endless missions, maybe sorties).

Making a massive change for a small issue is bad design.

It isn't so much that I hate it.

Other solutions:

1) I could see an ammo restoring warframe ability (and folks have suggested it in concepts)

2) Full ammo restoration at checkpoints in all levels except sorties and a few others (similar to shooters where you may resupply between engagements/at checkpoints)

3) Larger ammo pizzas

4) An ammo buff from a Focus power (Void Rounds, or some such.)

Whatever the solution, it should work in accordance with or in addition to the current system. Not overhaul it.

Overhauls/removals are for things like Stamina, removed when Parkour 2.0 dropped.

Why Archwing primaries have unlimited ammo with cooldowns:

Like turrets (seen on Grineer tilesets), these heavy machine guns, or miniguns, follow the well-worn mechanical drawback for their weapon type. We see this in every game that has them. Over heat and cool down phases are used because of the weapon type.

There is no logical reason to apply this to secondaries and primaries (which only include light machine guns, at best).

Why Trinity, Zenurik (and something else that was mentioned?) are not infinite energy:

Because Trinity, Zenurik and the other item you mentioned (Energy Siphon!), are not mandatory, and universal.

We are not all using ES aura, Trinity, or Zenurik. It would be unbalanced and boring if we did, and DE would force us to change.

What developer wants to see asset variety wasted and ignored? It will happen anyway (in the case of bad assets), but that is far, far different than intentionally encouraging players to ignore gear.

Warframe is a game that, despite the meta and its reasons for existing, thrives on freedom to choose your loadout and play style.

Unlimited energy, by the way, would actually be unlimited with different restore and efficiency rates for different warframes.

Why not to start debates like this:

If other members should not use personal insults, the flip side is you cannot engage in a debate, while never conceding a point.

You can't participate in a debate with the mindset that you simply cannot be wrong or bested on some point.

You should acknowledge when you are wrong, or bested on a point. It's called conceding the point (not the entire argument, unless that has been defeated as well).

The problem is far too many real and online debaters do this, and the art of true debate suffers as do they.

You can't just not read a well-argued set of points because it's too long (a classic copout answer, please avoid this in future if you invite a debate).

It's like our job is to defend or attack your arguments HP as we see fit.

Yours, naturally, is to defend it.

We can't cheat and attack your character or you with insults, and you and we cannot pretend solid hits that landed actually missed.

No. They remove your argument's HP, whittle it down.

Or you at least counter it (as you have here, but only when you chose to).

Doesn't mean you have to respond to every comment, but you know exactly which ones I am referring to.

That is debate. That is an open discussion with real give and take.

I believe you honestly dislike the ammo pizzas, and want this as a solution, but your pretending solid, legal hits didn't land on the argument are what lead folks to call you a troll and fishing for a flame-war.

I don't think you are one, or that you're doing that. However, the possibility remains that I'm wrong and you don't care one way or the other about the debate, and just wish to prolong it.

Oh, one point I forgot.

EDF Video:

That looks like large scale, open-space combat against goliath enemies. That's similar to Archwing and reinforces my point: In games, weapon type (and its purpose) tends to dictate it's behavior, characteristics and ammo efficiency and consumption.

That is not very conventional warfare in EDF. The weapon suits the combat I see.

Much of Warframe's combat, for all its beautifully weird and striking unique factors, involves more conventional warfare.

We don't fight goliaths on the regular.

Furthermore, the weapons themselves are quite conventional and therefore use conventional ammo mechanics.

Further still, many weapons had to be conventional and zero-tech due to the Old War against the Sentients.

Speaking of the devil, you know that Sentient arm cannon Steve has been teasing on Twitter?

I'm willing to bet it will use over heat and cool down phases since it is not a conventional weapon.

I will add spoilers later, but I can't on my phone.

Cheers.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Rhekemi

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

49 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

no, in general it IS out of place. the only reason it works in aw as it does, is because its AW. just because something works in AW doesnt mean it works in regular modes. honestly if you've played any AW at all, you should be able to see why it'd only work there

Yet you can't even give one solid reason for why it works in AW but not elsewhere? That's not very convincing.

23 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Why topics like this persist, and why not to let it die:

Aside from watching trainwrecks (which this isn't yet), people love a good debate. Or to see a bad argument, case, point, or suggestion get destroyed in a good debate. We also like seeing how well the person making the initial argument does.

Why insults have no place in debate:

I can see why calling an idea "stupid" could sting, and be reported. I've called a concept lazy (because it was) while offering a lot of other helpful advice here and still gotten in trouble for the word "lazy".

I prefer to be blunt sometimes, but it can be poorly received.

The point is not everyone will take an insult to their concept or suggestion as just some dust on their shoulder. Best to avoid it and use tact where you can.

What are absolutely detrimental to good debates are personal insults. If you don't see the point of this thread and think it's trolling, step out of it and let those who want to participate continue.

But stop implying that the OP is stupid, or calling him/her that outright. Stop saying he needs help.

It ain't right, he hasn't attacked you, and if his topic insults your intelligence, leave, report it and let the mods decide, or destroy his arguments with logic and counter-arguments.

Well said.

23 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Why unlimited ammo is a bad idea in Warframe:

Ammo conservation and consumption are mechanics that work to balance video games, ensure difficulty, and encourage loadout variety.

It is working as intended, and as many have told you, there are several methods to increase a weapon's ammo efficiency.

We prefer these methods because they keep weapons, builds, and mods we have invested time, effort and (in some cases) money in viable.

I do understand that you don't like ammo restores and would like them removed, but changing the entire system to run on unlimited ammo is an unnecessary, game-wide rework that solves a very small annoyance.

Again, running out of ammo is a small annoyance on a select few weapons, and only a serious problem in select conditions (endless missions, maybe sorties).

Making a massive change for a small issue is bad design.

-snip-

I don't agree with you, but kudos on logically supporting your arguments.

Anyway . . .

Like I said before, I don't think ammo consumption is a balancing point. If the ammo consumption increase is light then it has no effect because of ammo restores completely negate it. If it is severe, such as with the Amprex, people just stop using the weapon entirely.  Reload times would make far more sense as a balancing mechanic and would serve in the same fashion, but actually achieve their intended function.

Wanting to avoid change just for the sake of wanting to avoid change is not a valid reason.

I can pretty much guarantee that the Amprex would see more use if it had infinite ammo, but a 5 second reload time, versus it's current state. I am pretty sure a longer reload time for the simulor would reduce a lot of the complaints people have about it too.

The longer reload times I am suggesting have the same function as the over-heat mechanic you are talking about.

I have conceded points before, but for that to happen, you need to make a compelling and logical argument. I am not going to say I am wrong just because more people are saying that I am.

I don't read long drawout arguments that start with an insult.  If you think someone made a good point, but they started out by name-calling then you will need to reiterate that point, because I stopped reading right there and added that person to my ignore list.

 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

36 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

That looks like large scale, open-space combat against goliath enemies. That's similar to Archwing and reinforces my point: In games, weapon type (and its purpose) tends to dictate it's behavior, characteristics and ammo efficiency and consumption.

That is not very conventional warfare in EDF. The weapon suits the combat I see.

Much of Warframe's combat, for all its beautifully weird and striking unique factors, involves more conventional warfare.

We don't fight goliaths on the regular.

Furthermore, the weapons themselves are quite conventional and therefore use conventional ammo mechanics.

Further still, many weapons had to be conventional and zero-tech due to the Old War against the Sentients.

Speaking of the devil, you know that Sentient arm cannon Steve has been teasing on Twitter?

I'm willing to bet it will use over heat and cool down phases since it is not a conventional weapon.

I will add spoilers later, but I can't on my phone.

Cheers.

So just apply the infinite ammo with the longer reloads (i.e. "cool downs") to our "super-weapons," such as the Amprex.

[NightBlitz]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

1 hour ago, NightBlitz said:

 

Yet you can't even give one solid reason for why it works in AW but not elsewhere? That's not very convincing.

have you considered that its because of how aw is as a whole? think about how much more of a pain it is to get loot in aw, even with an itzal. and then theres the fact that hitting aw enemies is like 20x more of a pain. i could probably list a few more majpr reasons, but im too lazy and too busy to spend all day dealing with people that have a one track mind

[mikami666134]

I honestly thought that this post was a joke....

[Rehtael7]

All I'd have to say is basically everything Rhek said, but I think he'll say it better anyway.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Also, to build on my previous argument. I don't think fighting colossal enemies has any effect on whether a game should have infinite ammo or not. Remember, Borderlands also had infinite ammo.

23 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

have you considered that its because of how aw is as a whole? think about how much more of a pain it is to get loot in aw, even with an itzal. and then theres the fact that hitting aw enemies is like 20x more of a pain. i could probably list a few more majpr reasons, but im too lazy and too busy to spend all day dealing with people that have a one track mind

I never had an trouble hitting enemies in AW, and the melee has auto-aim to boot. Collecting loot is it's own problem. They could have fixed that by having a better loot vacuum; that's not an argument for regenning ammo because you still need to collect loot in AW anyway.

Pot meet kettle.

[KnightCole]

7 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

If you didn't even watch a full minute of it, why would I listen to your opinion? That would not have even given you enough time to see the mechanic in effect. You don't even see his second weapon until around the 5 minute mark, and until you see both, you have no idea how the mechanic even works.

Lol, I watched him break out that big &#! rocket launcher thing.  The game just looks $&*&*#(%&.  Huge weird looking robots walking into gobs of fire while you fire unlimited ammo at them, blowing them to pieces....

[Bobtm]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Yet you can't even give one solid reason for why it works in AW but not elsewhere? That's not very convincing.

With Archwing it's due to the scale and non-linearity of the maps.  For further note on this, we're actually given a universal vacuum in Archwing, and given infinite ammunition.  Both of which are very poor things to implement within the main game, but are an effective necessity for Archwing.

So to break this further down;  When one is playing a normal mission (assuming lag doesn't muddle things) any and all drops which fall from a foe/container will be deposited upon the ground somewhere near their location.  The ground is a focal area, even when you're bouncing around and making full usage of this game's parkour system both in and out of combat, paying attention to things at ground level is always key.  Both to be able to fight enemies, evade enemies, and navigate the levels themselves.

Players are always looking at/around the ground, drops are always on the ground.  They go hand in hand, it takes naught but the tiniest bit of attention to make notice of ammo drops that may be needed, or any other drop for that matter, while playing normally.  Basically you can find the things you need, without needing to do some strange extra thing.

However, let's look at Archwing.  Here, while there is still a technical up and down, there is no "ground" like we have for us within normal play.  This means that any drops which are produced can exist basically anywhere within the gameplay space.  Up, down, left, right, and quite literally every possible thing in between.  Due to this, expecting a player to able to effectively find and collect some drops without having a negative impact on their normal flow of play is too much.  Again, this is why we see the universal vacuum that exists in Archwing mode, to counter this issue.  The same is true for why infinite ammo exists in Archwing, but not in the normal game mode.

In Archwing, there's not a collective "area" where you can expect drops to be deposited.  So having something like infinite ammo becomes a necessity to ensure that the proper gameplay flow is maintained.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Also, to build on my previous argument. I don't think fighting colossal enemies has any effect on whether a game should have infinite ammo or not. Remember, Borderlands also had infinite ammo

Borderlands did not have infinite ammo as a default thing.  There were some mods, in the first Borderlands, that offered ammo regen for specific weapon types, by character.

In Borderlands 2, almost all of this was completely removed.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Bobtm
Adding another quote which was falsified information, and debunking it.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

7 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Lol, I watched him break out that big &#! rocket launcher thing.  The game just looks $&*&*#(%&.  Huge weird looking robots walking into gobs of fire while you fire unlimited ammo at them, blowing them to pieces....

It's actually more challenging that WF, to be honest.

8 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

Borderlands did not have infinite ammo as a default thing.  There were some mods, in the first Borderlands, that offered ammo regen for specific weapon types, by character.

In Borderlands 2, almost all of this was completely removed.

You could get a mod that gave you ammo regen on all weapons if you used Roland. The others regened ammo for the weapons they were build for. Such as Mordecai and pistols.

[Rhekemi]

7 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Like I said before, I don't think ammo consumption is a balancing point. If the ammo consumption increase is light then it has no effect because of ammo restores completely negate it. If it is severe, such as with the Amprex, people just stop using the weapon entirely.  Reload times would make far more sense as a balancing mechanic and would serve in the same fashion, but actually achieve their intended function.

The mods to make those weapons viable still exist, though.

Since DE has been talking about overhauling the mod system for some time (esp. mandatory mods), there is room for addressing the individual weapons somehow.

Another solution might be the weapon passive system debuted with syndicate melee.

Yes, come to think of it, that would be quite nice if done right.

Each weapon could receive an interesting temporary buff (that could include an ammo boost on X condition being met).

DE did say they would look into more weapon passives.

Ah, also remember the Gazal Machete? Weapon Sentinel and warframe weapon synergy. Though I wouldn't mind some variations on it to make sure we don't get tied to X + Y metas only.

Something along those lines could work on weapons with sucky ammo efficiency.

Like charging a weapon with Void Rounds on X condition being met.

Quote

Wanting to avoid change just for the sake of wanting to avoid change is not a valid reason.

Yes, and an unnecessary change, like an overhaul, is not needed when a smaller change or existing strategies address the underlying issue.

Quote

I can pretty much guarantee that the Amprex would see more use if it had infinite ammo, but a 5 second reload time, versus it's current state. I am pretty sure a longer reload time for the simulor would reduce a lot of the complaints people have about it too.

I don't disagree here.

Quote

The longer reload times I am suggesting have the same function as the over-heat mechanic you are talking about.

Different kind of weapons, though.

Quote

I have conceded points before, but for that to happen, you need to make a compelling and logical argument. I am not going to say I am wrong just because more people are saying that I am.

I don't read long drawout arguments that start with an insult.  If you think someone made a good point, but they started out by name-calling then you will need to reiterate that point, because I stopped reading right there and added that person to my ignore list.

Yeah, after I posted this occurred to me.

You have that right, absolutely.

I think I spoke from my mindset: in your shoes I address both. The unwarranted insult, as I see it, and the valid/invalid arguments.

I do this not because I enjoy dealing with unneeded negativity, but because I can, because it only strengthens my argument if I don't have to go negative, but can still eviscerate your argument.

As I said, not everyone has time for that, though.

This also reinforces the point that true discussions and debates should remain free of insults. When great points are mixed in with insulting, barbed and cutting language, the person you're debating may disengage leaving the great points unaddressed.

Even if it seems like someone is only being a contrarian, I don't think we should mind it so long as we have the time and inclination to defeat their argument.

I dunno. That's just how I'm wired.

My pitfall is becoming the thing I hate: instead of destroying the argument, I have myself easily transitioned into destroying the person, or walking a fine line.

It isn't easy, and I don't condemn or judge anyone in this topic, despite my strong opinions.

Just remember you're all people, and try to debate fairly. That's what I try to do.

7 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

So just apply the infinite ammo with the longer reloads (i.e. "cool downs") to our "super-weapons," such as the Amprex.

I can see some kind of passive being applied to ammo-hogs, but unlimited ammo still seems like a bridge too far.

Then every other favorite weapon will want unlimited ammo.

So either these problematic weapons need to be placed in a new category or class, or weapon types/classes need broad passives to make them more useful, appealing, and support varied gear as intended.

I don't just want Syndicate passives, but default weapon ammo classes (like shotguns), or families (like Heks) need to have passives like warframes (and like the Gazal!).

I also think the weapon categories need some work (and the ammo types), not to mention sub-categories for rifles (even if their ammo types remain the same).

As for Archwing, I think my points were valid, but Bobtm nailed it better than I could have.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Rhekemi

[Wandering_Cyberdragoness]

On 10/21/2016 at 6:03 PM, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I can just stop and use a pie and have full ammo anyway. This would actually make them less OP since you would be adjusting their reloads times to make up for the infinite ammo.

reported

They didn't personally attack you, reported

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

48 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Yes, and an unnecessary change, like an overhaul, is not needed when a smaller change or existing strategies address the underlying issue.

Sometimes the simplest change is the best, and infinite ammo is the simplest change. The problem with the smaller changes is that they tend to jut be a series of band-aids and never truly address the underlying issues. We really have too many band-aids as it is.

 

51 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

I don't disagree here.

Then I am not really seeing the issue.

52 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Different kind of weapons, though.

Functionally speaking, they achieve the same end goal, but I am not against limiting the change to "super-weapons" like the simulor, tonkor, amprex, etc.

56 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

I can see some kind of passive being applied to ammo-hogs, but unlimited ammo still seems like a bridge too far.

I don't think so, because if you have a full mag to play with then have to wait up to 10 secs between mags reloads, it would balance them greatly. No more Simulor spam, but also no more being able to only use the amprex for like 2 minutes total during an entire mission.

 

[(PSN)abbacephas]

3 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

It ain't right, he hasn't attacked you, and if his topic insults your intelligence, leave, report it and let the mods decide, or destroy his arguments with logic and counter-arguments.

LOL

[blackheartstar_pc]

No to infinite ammo. In my opinion if anything Warframe is too generous with ammo.

[Rhekemi]

5 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Then I am not really seeing the issue.

Well, the issue's still the same for me; I think applying unlimited ammo to all weapons is unnecessary; applying it to a select few weapons is not as bad an idea, but still not really necessary, or more importantly, don't seem like the best way to address the issue despite it being the simplest. 

It doesn't mean I don't see the issue. I do. In place of any unlimited ammo idea, I still think passives and buffs based on class, family, etc, are viable, and it seems we're already headed in that direction (Gazal Machete + Djinn passives). 

5 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Functionally speaking, they achieve the same end goal, but I am not against limiting the change to "super-weapons" like the simulor, tonkor, amprex, etc.

I don't think so, because if you have a full mag to play with then have to wait up to 10 secs between mags reloads, it would balance them greatly. No more Simulor spam, but also no more being able to only use the amprex for like 2 minutes total during an entire mission.

The rest of my quote, and the reason it's a bridge too far: "Then every other favorite weapon will want unlimited ammo." Meaning we wind up with unlimited ammo on all weapons.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

21 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Meaning we wind up with unlimited ammo on all weapons.

And again, I have not seen anyone actually adequately explain how that is a bad thing or how it hurts the game. How does having your ammo refill automatically fundamentally hurt the game in a way that dropping multiple team ammo restores at once doesn't?

EDIT:

Actually just answering this well could make me concede: "How does having your ammo refill automatically fundamentally hurt the game in a way that dropping multiple team ammo restores at once does not?"

Edited October 23, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Rhekemi]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

And again, I have not seen anyone actually adequately explain how that is a bad thing or how it hurts the game. How does having your ammo refill automatically fundamentally hurt the game in a way that dropping multiple team ammo restores at once doesn't?

All right. Let's unpack that question.

1) I did explain how it's a bad thing, how it hurts the game. I also gave other solutions (with the passives coming up later in another post), explained why unlimited energy doesn't exist, and why Archwing weapons aren't comparable to unlimited ammo on primaries/secondaries. (Though, Bobtm did a better job on the last point.)

Spoiler

Why unlimited ammo is a bad idea in Warframe:

Ammo conservation and consumption are mechanics that work to balance video games, ensure difficulty, and encourage loadout variety.

It is working as intended, and as many have told you, there are several methods to increase a weapon's ammo efficiency.

We prefer these methods because they keep weapons, builds, and mods we have invested time, effort and (in some cases) money in viable.

I do understand that you don't like ammo restores and would like them removed, but changing the entire system to run on unlimited ammo is an unnecessary, game-wide rework that solves a very small annoyance.

Again, running out of ammo is a small annoyance on a select few weapons, and only a serious problem in select conditions (endless missions, maybe sorties).

Making a massive change for a small issue is bad design.

It isn't so much that I hate it.

You simply disagreed, and find that explanation (and others like making melee weapons, or the need to switch to them obsolete) inadequate.

That's not the same as having no reasons provided.

2) Your question poses a point I never, not even once, raised. I never asserted building and spamming multiple ammo restores with a hotkey was any different than an innate unlimited ammo restore on all weapons.

3) That it isn't any different, your assertion, not mine, would seem to invalidate your very request. If it isn't different, why can't you just use team ammo restores? What valid reason do you have for not wanting to use them and requesting a game-wide overhaul to the way ammo restoration and reloading works? And you do have to answer this question because that is your request.

You have asserted that you do not like ammo restores and want them eliminated. If they are no different from unlimited ammo, why can't you use ammo restores like many/all of us do, and as the system intends you to?

Why does the system have to change?

Edited October 23, 2016 by Rhekemi

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

12 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

That it isn't any different, your assertion, not mine

I never said it was your assertion.  That is irrelevant. I am asking what infinite ammo would break that it does not. It doesn't hurt my argument at all. My argument right from the near-start was that ammo restores are tedious because you have to stand around waiting for them before the mission, have to farm for the materials, etc.

The reason for not wanting to rely on TAR is above. It is tedious and distracts from the core gameplay, i.e. the running and gunning. Infinite ammo does no harm that TARs do not already do, while removing a ton of needless tedium. (You'll notice a theme with me. I tend to hate anything that distracts from the core game play. I hated having to do scans too. I want to focus on the run-n-gun, I don't want to play photography minigames).

Edited October 23, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Dreddeth]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

And again, I have not seen anyone actually adequately explain how that is a bad thing or how it hurts the game. How does having your ammo refill automatically fundamentally hurt the game in a way that dropping multiple team ammo restores at once doesn't?

The onus is always on the one making the claim to prove it, not on the skeptic to disprove it. You're committing a classic "Burden of Proof" fallacy: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

And your personal incredulity as to the adequacy of our ad-nauseum explanations regarding how your proposal is pointless at best and harmful at worst is itself a fallacy: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

I'm not going to commit the Fallacist's Fallacy and say that you are wrong simply because your arguments are almost completely invalid, but for all your hemming and hawing about how you don't feel our own criticisms of your concept are valid, I have to say that "all looks yellow to the jaundiced eye," and we really can't change such a basic part of the game on empty rhetoric.

[Rhekemi]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I never said it was your assertion.  That is irrelevant. I am asking what infinite ammo would break that it does not. It doesn't hurt my argument at all. My argument right from the near-start was that ammo restores are tedious because you have to stand around waiting for them before the mission, have to farm for the materials, etc.

The reason for not wanting to rely on TAR is above. It is tedious and distracts from the core gameplay, i.e. the running and gunning. Infinite ammo does no harm that TARs do not already do, while removing a ton of needless tedium.

To be blunt, that's not a good enough reason, then.

Tedium is part of the fabric of Warframe. We don't call it Warfarm for nothing. You know this.

Should some tedium be removed? Absolutely. I think Forma and Argon need to be looked at, something to offset those really high wait times. I think Nitain could drop either more frequently, or be added as rare rewards to sorties, something, anything beyond alerts.

But I do not believe ammo restores need to be scrapped for unlimited ammo. Between the three restore types, I run out of energy and health faster. I don't have the gear I should have for my level probably, (arcanes, max-forma'd gear, maxed Focus schools) so I still use restores when I am in a real jam. Ammo is my least used restore. I have 70 something or so left. Health and energy are in single digits. (I stocked up on ammo because a buddy and I planned on an endless run, but we never have time to play for past 2 hours maximum at a time.)

Do I like having to build them? Not really. Do I wish the restores were in bigger packs? Yeah. I have regular farming runs for their resources and try to go when I get a booster. When I get spare moments when trading or waiting for something else, I build.

They're on equal footing with energy restores and health restores, and where they aren't (Trinity, Zenurik, Energy Siphon) that could probably be addressed with (as I said earlier) an ammo boosting warframe power, an ammo boosting Focus power, maybe even an ammo restoring aura. Then there are weapon passives, buffs and synergies with other gear.

Overall, I think that this specific kind of tedium is meant to be part of the game. I use restores. I'm not someone who'll tell you if you need them, the problem is you. I'm an average player and a die-hard casual, but I still think this tedium is fine, and since the game's tedium is fundamental to it, we need to focus on removing the really troublesome aspects of the grind. Not this.

I just think there are several more interesting ways to address the handful of weapons that have this issue, while creating a unique utility that could serve either all weapons or categories of weapons differently. 

 

I was editing a list into the previous post when you replied, so I'll put it here:

Reasons why an overhaul to weapon ammo is bad design:

• Spoiler

   

  • It asks the devs to invest time and resources into making an overhaul for either all weapons, or a select few
  • Player base could get pissed off their favorite weapon was not included in that select few
  • DE has to decide whether to give all weapons unlimited ammo
  • Ammo restores are now another useless resource
  • All mods used to compensate for ammo inefficient weapons are now useless
  • Those who build playstyles around how to use an ammo inefficient weapon well now have to rebuild that style
  • If it ain't broke, don't fix it: Why should the devs spend time fixing something that isn't broken?
  • It's a bad idea to do the point listed above, and below:
  • The majority does rule. With regard to a Universal Vacuum precept, the majority spoke, and didn't stop speaking until DE listened, then redid the change to get it right.
  • The majority hasn't and is not speaking on this, and the handful of others who want this change haven't supplied sufficient reasoning for the change. (Subjective. I think it isn't sufficient. Just like I've no list of reasons for my forma or argon issues yet.)
  • There are more interesting ways to address poor ammo consumption: passives and synergies, for instance.

   

   

Edited October 23, 2016 by Rhekemi

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

The onus is always on the one making the claim to prove it, not on the skeptic to disprove it. You're committing a classic "Burden of Proof" fallacy: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

Actually, the burden of proof falls on us both. I say that this is better; it is my burden to prove it. You say that is better; and it is your burden to prove that too.  It only becomes a burden of proof fallacy if I claim to be right by default and say you have to prove me wrong.

 

 

 

 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

3 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

To be blunt, that's not a good enough reason, then.

Well, that's just like your opinion, man. I disagree wholeheartedly with it as well.  Farming is fun. Standing around waiting for 10 ammo restores to finish, then doing it again, is not. I also never run out of ammo. Why? Because if a weapon becomes ammo inefficient, then it has to go on the shelf, no matter how much fun it used to be (R.I.P. Angstrum).

This is not the kind of tedium that promotes either fun nor plat sales. It just wastes people's time and annoys them. It is not healthy for the game.

The majority, in fact, does not rule. DE does. Most people didn't want GP touched and it still happened.

Be honest, when was the last time you busted out a Kohm, Amprex, or Angstrum on an endless mission?