Why Are People Tolerating The Fact That Prime Variants Are Direct Upgrades To Their Counterparts?

[Kaibah]

For the most part, I agree with you thread starter. The reality is that many people will drift towards the superior and ignore the weaker things. Look at extreme examples like the pistols Sicarius and Despair. Ever seen anyone actually suggest using Sicarius over Despair? Hell no. Heck, I don't think I ever have seen anyone actually use the gun (besides mastery points) except for myself.

 

Anyway, I'll go one step further than you though and say that the release of Frost Prime has also set a bad precedent. Does this mean there will be Prime versions of every Warframe? Is there even a point to using the old version over the new? Heck, that's already happening now. Why keep the original Frost and waste a slot when you spend all that time collecting the Prime version? Besides looks, there's no real reason to keep the original. That's dumb, don't you think?

[Ced23Ric]

Besides looks, there's no real reason to keep the original. That's dumb, don't you think?

 

Frost can be obtained without the Void. Frost Prime cannot. How is making a frame that is vital to defense missions available for everyone dumb? I think your perception is quite shortsighted here.

 

Also, there is Excalibur Prime, too. Frost Prime is certainly not the first - or last - Prime. The next Prime will be female, if it comes.

[Kaibah]

Frost can be obtained without the Void. Frost Prime cannot. How is making a frame that is vital to defense missions available for everyone dumb? I think your perception is quite shortsighted here.

 

No, I think your perception is. I'll get to the bolded in a minute. Seriously dude, the Void is not some supremely rare place to be reached. Especially now since DE buffed the key drop rate. Frost Prime will eventually be obtained by people and what would be the point of the original? All he becomes is a glorified skin.

 

As for the part I bolded? I have no idea what you're getting at as I already know how everyone can achieve the original Frost. I'm talking about why it's pretty pointless to keep him when you get Frost Prime. 

 

Also, there is Excalibur Prime, too. Frost Prime is certainly not the first - or last - Prime. The next Prime will be female, if it comes.

 

I don't have a problem with Excalibur Prime or the weapons he came with because he was part of the Founders package. It was an incentive for people to purchase the thing. Frost Prime and the new Prime weapons on the other hand sets a bad precedent and I've explained some reasons why (same with the thread starter).

Edited July 23, 2013 by Kaibah

[Inferno_Hamster]

 I'm talking about why it's pretty pointless to keep him when you get Frost Prime.

 

Because sometimes I like to play regular Frost.  I keep my Frost Prime with the prime helmet at all times, and sometimes I want to play with more armor or more damaging skills.  Solution I use the normal frost with Aurora/Squall helmet equipped.  

[Ced23Ric]

Seriously dude, the Void is not some supremely rare place to be reached. Especially now since DE buffed the key drop rate. Frost Prime will eventually be obtained by people and what would be the point of the original? All he becomes is a glorified skin. As for the part I bolded? I have no idea what you're getting at as I already know how everyone can achieve the original Frost. I'm talking about why it's pretty pointless to keep him when you get Frost Prime.

 

That is my point exactly. You cannot get Frost Prime as easily as Frost. Frost gives Mastery points, too. There is reasons for Frost to exist as a Lech Krill drop. Since Frost is a vital asset in Grineer/Corpus (Mobile) Defense, putting him somewhere accessible rather than behind the void is a valid design decision. Obviously, if you have a replacement, you ... replace him.

 

Is the problem that Frost Prime makes Frost obsolete once you have both?

[Ultrahorst]

I do not only tolerate it, I appreciate it.

[Kaibah]

Because sometimes I like to play regular Frost.  I keep my Frost Prime with the prime helmet at all times, and sometimes I want to play with more armor or more damaging skills.  Solution I use the normal frost with Aurora/Squall helmet equipped.  

 

That's the thing though. Since Warframes can gain helmets which provide stats bonuses, if you get them and they have decent buffs, then things could potentially sway the other way and (in this case) Frost Prime might be the one that becomes a glorified skin.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Kaibah

[Lumireaver]

We're not.

 

Most of the people against the idea in that topic seem to forget that skins can alter stats, add neat particle effects, could easily be mastery locked, and that currently mastery beyond a certain level is worthless. (Although that topic is about 99% focused on Prime/Vandal weaponry. ...Since there are so few Warframes by comparison, I don't mind that Prime Warframes are separate entities.)

They named it Seer.

 

Seer fires weird bolt thingies.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Lumireaver

[Kaibah]

That is my point exactly. You cannot get Frost Prime as easily as Frost. Frost gives Mastery points, too.

 

So what? Once you get Frost Prime, the original becomes a glorified skin (if we don't include helmets). If we do, then the opposite might happen depending on what stats the helmets have. 

 

There is reasons for Frost to exist as a Lech Krill drop. Since Frost is a vital asset in Grineer/Corpus (Mobile) Defense, putting him somewhere accessible rather than behind the void is a valid design decision.

 

I didn't even advocate making the original Frost a Void reward. Why you even bring this up baffles me.

 

Obviously, if you have a replacement, you ... replace him.

 

So, you're basically saying it's ok for certain weapons and Warframes to be not worth using. Well, I think that's bad.

 

Is the problem that Frost Prime makes Frost obsolete once you have both?

 

That's been part of my argument all along! If we don't include helmets, then yes. If we do, then (depending on stats) Frost Prime might be the one which becomes a glorified skin.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Kaibah

[Ced23Ric]

I didn't even advocate making the original Frost a Void reward. Why you even bring this up baffles me.

 

So, you're basically saying it's ok for certain weapons and Warframes to be not worth using. Well, I think that's bad.

 

Quick correction: It's about implications. If Frost is removed because of the existance of Frost Prime, then the void is the only source to access Frost Prime. That puts an essential frame for (Mobile) Defense behind the void. If not, it would imply putting Frost Prime on Lech Kril, or a tertiary solution not obvious from here. Why do I bring this up? Because you cannot change an element and ignore the consequences.

 

And if there's a minuscule upgrade to Frost, sure, I don't think that is bad. It's a stepping stone. Not that Frost Prime is required for anything. Frost and Frost Prime have the same stats, except for a free (but locked) polarizing on Frost Prime. Frost Prime is not a necessity. It is not even a true upgrade, unless you count the Void interaction (+100E @ laser orbs) as an upgrade. How is Frost not worth using? On the way to grind for Frost Prime, you might just get a Forma and Frost would even be better, economically speaking.

[Inferno_Hamster]

You can argue that the prime/vandal weapons make the originals obsolete (although technically the primes are the original) but it doesn't make the the originals any less useful.  Incoming bad car analogy! Just kidding.  The same is true in real life and can be seen across multiple products, yes cars too, look at PC operating systems some people are just now retiring Windows XP.

[Kaibah]

Quick correction: It's about implications. If Frost is removed because of the existance of Frost Prime, then the void is the only source to access Frost Prime. That puts an essential frame for (Mobile) Defense behind the void. If not, it would imply putting Frost Prime on Lech Kril, or a tertiary solution not obvious from here. Why do I bring this up? Because you cannot change an element and ignore the consequences.

 

Who said anything about removing original Frost? I certainly never did. To be honest, I always thought it made more sense for Frost Prime to just be a skin or something (kind of like how different helmets can be equipped), but you still had to actually level it to 30. That way, you'd get mastery points and a different look to choose from if you wanted to use it.

 

And if there's a minuscule upgrade to Frost, sure, I don't think that is bad. It's a stepping stone. Not that Frost Prime is required for anything. Frost and Frost Prime have the same stats, except for a free (but locked) polarizing on Frost Prime. Frost Prime is not a necessity. It is not even a true upgrade, unless you count the Void interaction (+100E @ laser orbs) as an upgrade. On the way to grind for Frost Prime, you might just get a Forma and Frost would even be better, economically speaking.

 

Well, you're really just making my argument for me now. Even you've pretty much agreed here that Frost Prime is basically a 'minuscule upgrade' (if that at all), so why bother keeping both frames? One of 'em ultimately becomes a glorified skin. Unless you're a huge fan of Frost and want to have both skins or something, it's pretty redundant to have both and waste an extra slot.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Kaibah

[Ced23Ric]

Well, you're really just making my argument for me now.

 

I think we simply disagree on whether that is a problem or not. I don't think it is.

[Starberyl]

I think prime weapons are ugly as hell. Mainly because the gold lining ruins the mood for me. Let us color the trimming and I'd maybe pass them as "exquisite" weapons. 

[Kaibah]

I think we simply disagree on whether that is a problem or not. I don't think it is.

 

You say that, but why? They're both redundant. Also, do you disagree with this thread? Plenty of weapons (including Primes) have come out which is superior to the original version or other weapons. It's even possible this effect could happen with future Prime Warframes. It's a bad precedent and we should all complain about it. That's unless you think it's cool everyone should run around with weapons like Acrid, Ogris and several others 24/7.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Kaibah

[Procession]

@OP: because it's part of the game... new stuff come out and they are, generally, better than previous staff for a very simple reason: keep the game alive, feed players with new objectives.

 

If the Latron Prime wasnt better than the Latron who the hell would have farm/build it? none. (maybe just a few fans)

 

And this situation is perfectly normal and equal in all the games! not just warframe, so please...

Perfect point, why the hell would I farm up all the components and then farm up 10 fracking Orokin Cells to build a weapon that is identical in stats to a rifle I can build buying the blueprint off the market place and using common mats for.

[Xylia]

Excalibur, Skana, and Lato Prime are nice shiny rewards given to people for supporting the game with their money.

 

Braton, Fang, Orthos and Paris Prime are rewards for doing the new Void Missions which usually entail harder-than-normal missions (harder than missions outside of Void) that you do elsewhere and involve somewhat rare drops and lots of RNG. Also, some of them take a LOT of Orokin Cells, which means lots of Rare Material Farming.

 

Reaper and Latron Prime involve a lot of RNG (I've done like 20 Void2-3 missions and still don't have an LP Receiver) and again, Orokin Cells.

 

No other weapon in the game takes TEN Rare Materials to make, PLUS 2-3 Rare RNG Mission Rewards.

 

As far as the "Boo Hoo now I gotta re-potato and re-forma the weapon, Boo Hoo".

 

What if the Latron Prime had be called anything else? It is still "better than a latron" whether it is called "Latron Prime" or "Orokin Semi-Automatic Sniper Rifle That Looks Like a Latron".

 

Are you asking for DE to never add new weapons to the game?

 

I bet you are also upset about the Sobek being better than the Hek in some situations, even though the Sobek isn't Hek Prime (even though it might as well be).

 

Re-potatoing and Re-formaing a Prime weapon is CONTENT FOR THE GAME. You collect the forma, you level the gun, it is SOMETHING TO DO which a lot of people are complaining about the lack of.

 

You get a nice new shiny weapon (literally shiny as it is covered in gold and ivory) to enjoy and level up.

 

What's so bad about that? You want go through the rest of your Warframe tenure with the same weapons you've been using since U6?

Edited July 23, 2013 by Xylia

[Kaibah]

Perfect point, why the hell would I farm up all the components and then farm up 10 fracking Orokin Cells to build a weapon that is identical in stats to a rifle I can build buying the blueprint off the market place and using common mats for.

 

It doesn't have to be identical though. For example, the Latron Prime. Perhaps they could decrease how fast it can fire compared to the original, but it has more damage? I dunno, but make it so both weapons are viable.

[Ced23Ric]

It's a bad precedent and we should all complain about it.

 

Doesn't seem like everyone agrees with you, though. I understand that you feel strongly about that, but disagreeing with you does not make opinions invalid. Like many others and I said - what if the Latron Prime was called differently? Orokin Lance Rifle? Looks different, sounds different, has different stats. Would you complain there, too? Because no one complains that the the Mk.1 Braton is weaker than the Braton. It's the starter weapon, a stepping stone on the way up. Also, hardly any complaints between Boar and Sobek, or Afuris and Twin Vipers. They are similar, but different entities. And that's fine.

[Xylia]

It doesn't have to be identical though. For example, the Latron Prime. Perhaps they could decrease how fast it can fire compared to the original, but it has more damage? I dunno, but make it so both weapons are viable.

 

A normal latron is still viable, though not as good.

 

And if you made it "more damage, less fire rate" then you'd have this endless stream of debates about "which one is better?" and you'd have people fighting over it.

 

There's nothing wrong with putting in more work to get a better weapon. The Latron Prime takes more work to get than the original Latron. Therefore, it should be better.

 

Newbies who do not have access to Void 3 can use a Normal Latron from the time being until they can get the better version. Same with the Braton vs Braton Prime. The normal Braton will do just fine until you get up to where you can do Void Defense to get your Braton Prime.

 

There's nothing wrong with this model, it is called PROGRESSION, something that has been lacking in Warframe up until the Prime Weapons started to get introduced.

 

Progression is when you start the game with something "meh", you upgrade to something "so-so" and then a bit down the later, you go to something "good" and eventually something "awesome!".

 

Mods should not be the only form of progression in Warframe.

 

Prime Weapons are a good start.

[Tyrian3k]

Well, if you want to avoid getting screwed over by an added Prime weapon, simply don't invest in any Tenno weaponry. The only problem is finding a non-tenno melee weapon... most of them are Tenno designs after all.

That's one of the reasons I didn't vote for tenno weapons on the council... As soon as the Prime version comes out it'll be inferior anyways.

[Guiavena]

If I could give this post -1000000, I would.

 

From the sounds of this, you're a master founder pack owner who hasn't had to work for a single weapon in his entire time playing Warframe ("This opens the future up for a scenario where a person has invested quite a bit of platinum on a weapon"), and is now miffed that there are several weapons that are only attainable through hard work.

 

And really, it took me several days grinding Voids to get enough of the blueprints to make a Latron prime, and another day to get the exorbitant amount of orokin cells it required. If that doesn't count as "achievement" or "work," I don't know how you define those words.

If I could, I would probably make you unable to post things on the internet for the rest of your life (maybe the dimwits who backed you up by upvoting this hate post as well). No weapon should be better than the other. They should be different. For example, the Prime Warframe versions can be both good and bad, because the polarity slot may be what you need or just a nuisance. Then, there are the Prime weapons, that pretty much make the older weapons useless. Why not make them DIFFERENT? Which not only doesn't make people mad, but also adds more space for different playstyles.

The Braton and Braton Vandal are different weapons, where the rarer counterpart isn't better, just suited for another role. The Braton Vandal has better accuracy, critical chance and a polarity slot. But it also has considerably lower fire rate. Why not make all weapons like this? Makes no sense at all. 

 

Think before you post something stupid as what you just posted. Even if what he said didn't make sense, it's his opinion and you should have the mental ability to realize you have to respect it. Or maybe you don't have this ability. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

If I could, I would probably make you unable to post things on the internet for the rest of your life (maybe the dimwits who backed you up by upvoting this hate post as well).

Bit offtopic, but nice to see you're willing to censor others for saying they dislike your idea.

 

No weapon should be better than the other.

Without upgrades, the game can get stale. How many different weapon variants can there be before they start repeating themselves? And what's the point of mastery rank if everything is a sidegrade?

 

They should be different. For example, the Prime Warframe versions can be both good and bad, because the polarity slot may be what you need or just a nuisance.

I agree, but if they add more V slots mods, it won't be that way any more really.

 

Then, there are the Prime weapons, that pretty much make the older weapons useless. Why not make them DIFFERENT? Which not only doesn't make people mad, but also adds more space for different playstyles.

How?

 

The Braton and Braton Vandal are different weapons, where the rarer counterpart isn't better, just suited for another role. The Braton Vandal has better accuracy, critical chance and a polarity slot. But it also has considerably lower fire rate. Why not make all weapons like this? Makes no sense at all. 

You're right, but the brandal is more or less worthless compared to the braton. The braton outdamages it DPS wise. The brandal has like .25 or .5 more damage than the braton on average.

 

Think before you post something stupid as what you just posted. Even if what he said didn't make sense, it's his opinion and you should have the mental ability to realize you have to respect it. Or maybe you don't have this ability.

I find this funny.

[Rhorge]

Oh dear, how has this pissing contest not been closed by a moderator already?

[Aerroon]

How about if you potato a normal version of a weapon and a direct upgrade of that weapon comes out (and you acquire it) the potato goes to the upgraded version?

 Also, Warframe prime version doesn't really mean anything.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Aerroon