No More Prime/vandal Weapons

[Lumireaver]

Minor suggestion. Please write a script to return the potatos and forma invested in Prime/Vandal variants in order to avoid controversy, then give those people who own them Prime/Vandal skins for the respective weapons. In this way, Prime/Vandal weapons can continue to be released without rendering their base models obsolete.

 

Please do this before the size of the Prime/Vandal pool becomes too large for it to be feasible.

 

On a related note, since Vor has his own unique weapon, please turn the Brokk hammer into it's own standalone existence. Make it not a skin, alongside all future unique boss weapons.

 

edit:

Has anyone else noticed the Op hasn't said anything since page 2? nor has he made any arguments against the people who've brought up decent points against the idea. 

 

There isn't a whole left lot to say. Also I'm not here to argue, I'm here to express that there are issues and propose solutions. To provide feedback. The atmosphere on this forum is a little antagonistic, don't you think? You don't need to argue about everything. (I'm used to it, however. That's the reason I didn't mention which Primes/Vandals I do/don't have, or which weapons I have/haven't super charged. There's no reason any of that should be relevant to this discussion. Not that that stopped people from making off topic, accusatory remarks anyway, but I digress...)

 

Also: 

My mind is blown. Are you still planning that capacity increasing dojo shrine? We might just have too much capacity to reasonably fill before long.

 

Thanks for the update, Steve. How do you feel about weapon skins? Sincerely, I feel the system isn't being used enough.

 

Agreed - we need to do better with our skins, totally.

 

...So there's that...

 

To reiterate what's been said for your convenience, the biggest point(s) is(are) that:

 

• Warframe has a skin system. It's underutilized. This is not a good thing. (80+ weapons vs 4 weapon skins)
• Warframe has very skin-like suffix weapons which are more like skins than the differently modeled Dagger Axes, as well as the Brokk and Manticore hammers.

Apart from the nitpicky organizational Designer benefits, there are a many benefits to both for the player, and for DE.

 

• Players won't need to be afraid that their weapon will be rendered less useful by the existence of a +1 edition. IE: Braton +1. (Easier to invest/invest in Catalysts and Forma.)
• More on ease of investment: It's a lot easier to plat-purchase a Latron when you can rest knowing Latron +1 won't trivialize your purchase.
• Skins can modify stats (See: Alternate helmets), similar to what Primes/Vandals currently do. Moving Primes/Vandals over to the skin system can turn them more into true sidegrades.

Some of the perceived downsides to consolidating Prime/Vandals aren't completely logical:

 

"We will lose Mastery Rank points!" You don't need as many Mastery Rank points as are currently available just yet. Now is a great time to trim some of the clutter. (Also if the Primes/Vandals are consolidated and the Dagger Axes/Brokk/Manticore are treated as proper weapons, you don't lose very many points to begin with...) Additionally, this change could also come alongside the addition of Mastery Rank points for skins.

 

"Primes/Vandals are separate weapons from a lore perspective, so they shouldn't be skins!" The Brokk Hammer belongs to Lech Kril. The Manticore Axe has lore too. (Something about execution and rituals?) The Dagger Axes could get their own lore at some point to follow suit.

 

On top of all that, when things get rolling, many more skin variants could be rolled out. With or without stat differences... (Think: Steampunk Vasto, or a cloth wrapped, battle damaged Boltor? Infested amalgamated weapons with icky growths and flesh? Etc...)

 

Basically this is about future-proofiing, and proper feature utilization. 

Edited July 29, 2013 by Lumireaver

[X3Evanescence]

....... I am neutral to this.

Edited July 31, 2013 by X3Evanescence

[baldy117]

F You vandal weapons are rare cause they are Reward Items AKA Braton vandal Lato vandal Closed beta

The Snipetron vandal was a Event Reward item

Exc prime lato prime skana prime are bought in Real life

the New prime Items could Rival the Vandal Items

 

Only 3 Vandal Items are in the Game all wich can no longer be obtained the Prime Weapons(Not Exc lato and skana prime) can be obtained By Void Runs

[Lumireaver]

F You vandal weapons are rare cause they are Reward Items AKA Braton vandal Lato vandal Closed beta

The Snipetron vandal was a Event Reward item

Exc prime lato prime skana prime are bought in Real life

the New prime Items could Rival the Vandal Items

 

Only 3 Vandal Items are in the Game all wich can no longer be obtained the Prime Weapons(Not Exc lato and skana prime) can be obtained By Void Runs

 

Reading more than the title of my post would be a sensible course of action.

[X3Evanescence]

i did idiot

Even if you disagree with Lumireaver, please refrain from using coarse language. Be civil, and express your opinion in a more mature way. Starting flame wars on this thread is pointless.

Edited July 31, 2013 by X3Evanescence

[ZoeSoft]

Agree with the OP.

I have no problem investing money on upgrading my weapon to Prime, but please DE, let me do it.

It feels useless to grind and level up Giant Sword when a month from now Giant Sword+1 is released and all your time goes to waste.

[NoirProxy]

Actually I think the OP is right. I wouldn't mind the Primes becoming some kind of skin that gives a slight booster like the alt helmets. I don't think I even bother using the base weapons when I have their vandal versions. It is food for thought really.

[Lumireaver]

i did idiot

 

To start with, I never suggested that you (or anyone else) should have your exclusive/paid rewards taken away. I suggested that they be turned into skins.

 

Primarily to solve the (potential) problem of power creep. If all future +1 edition weapons were added as skins the original base weapons would never have to deal with irrelevancy. (You would be required to craft/purchase them no matter what.) As a secondary bonus, it also saves players a handful of weapon slots and allows players to spend their plat on upgrade consumables (forma/catalyts) without fear of +1 edition induced buyer's remorse.

 

Which, honestly, is why I have so many catalysts and so much forma stockpiled. Not going to drop them on weapons until I know I won't feel like a chump for doing so.

 

Thanks to X3Evanescence, ZeroAE, and NoirProxy for taking the time to read. :-)

[Scrounge]

News flash: You can still walk through the game without a reactor in your frame and catalyst in your weapon. Your normal gun is not "obsolete" in any meaningful definition of the word.

 

The people who get cranky about prime items are just cranky that someone has something slightly better, not that the stuff they already have is bad. Because it's really not. it's still working. Your Paris doesn't do half the damage it used to because someone shows up with a cooler looking one that does a small amount more dps. 

 

The prime versions of things are better, but it's such a tiny, tiny amount better in an easy game where the proper mods will always, forever be more important than if you are using a braton or a braton vandal. 

 

It's okay that things that are better and cooler are released now and then, the normal versions still do the trick, and it gives players with everything something to grind for, or incentive to take part in events. 

[Niryco]

To start with, I never suggested that you (or anyone else) should have your exclusive/paid rewards taken away. I suggested that they be turned into skins.

 

Primarily to solve the (potential) problem of power creep. If all future +1 edition weapons were added as skins the original base weapons would never have to deal with irrelevancy. (You would be required to craft/purchase them no matter what.) As a secondary bonus, it also saves players a handful of weapon slots and allows players to spend their plat on upgrade consumables (forma/catalyts) without fear of +1 edition induced buyer's remorse.

 

Which, honestly, is why I have so many catalysts and so much forma stockpiled. Not going to drop them on weapons until I know I won't feel like a chump for doing so.

 

Thanks to X3Evanescence, ZeroAE, and NoirProxy for taking the time to read. :-)

The weapons do not spark power creep t if the requirements to acquire them and to use the weapons justify the fact they are superior. Like dojo weapons with rank 7s. However Prime weapons are not subjected to the same treatment and must be to force new players to cycle through old content to prevent power creep.

 

The only problem now is that as stated certain superior weapons have no rank requirements and thus there is power creep.

 

What you state is good, as in the points are the pros to your suggestion is there. But the cons not so. A completionist would be sad that you said this because you just took out about a few thousand exp worth for mastery ranks. In addition by taking out this weapons in the game, people would be working for skins and just acquire the best skin, leaving the worse and average ones forgotten.

 

Thus there will still be power-creep because people will be looking for specific skins for power-play. There is no way to avoid power creep, only measures to slow it down. There will be skins that will be 100% more efficient and sadly those skins would be those that improve damage. No matter how the game progresses, due to fixed ammo start, the most important stat is damage, the more you have the better.

 

Sorry to shoot your idea, but this is the cons of it. It is not 100% perfect but it is indeed creative. I won't mind however maybe for specific weapon types only or weapon variants.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Jacate

[Valiant]

Agree with the OP.

I have no problem investing money on upgrading my weapon to Prime, but please DE, let me do it.

It feels useless to grind and level up Giant Sword when a month from now Giant Sword+1 is released and all your time goes to waste.

Indeed. That or give us an orokin extractor. It's becoming annoying that I basically keep wasting reactors.

[Lumireaver]

News flash: You can still walk through the game without a reactor in your frame and catalyst in your weapon. Your normal gun is not "obsolete" in any meaningful definition of the word.

 

The people who get cranky about prime items are just cranky that someone has something slightly better, not that the stuff they already have is bad. Because it's really not. it's still working. Your Paris doesn't do half the damage it used to because someone shows up with a cooler looking one that does a small amount more dps. 

 

Not a newsflash considering I've got well over two hundred hours put in and I haven't used any of my upgrade consumables. If the Braton Prime is objectively superior to the Braton, the Braton is kind of obsolete. More on that in a sec.

 

(I'm not cranky, though I do like meticulous organization and it bugs me a bit that there is a skin system in place and not enough skins to justify it. Alongside Prime and Vandal variants, I'd like to see more. Tied into lore, preferably. The Primes are Orokin super-prototypes, and the Vandals are Tenno refittings.)

 

The weapons do not spark power creep t if the requirements to acquire them and to use the weapons justify the fact they are superior. Like dojo weapons with rank 7s. However Prime weapons are not subjected to the same treatment and must be to force new players to cycle through old content to prevent power creep.

 

The only problem now is that as stated certain superior weapons have no rank requirements and thus there is power creep.

 

What you state is good, as in the points are the pros to your suggestion is there. But the cons not so. A completionist would be sad that you said this because you just took out about a few thousand exp worth for mastery ranks. In addition by taking out this weapons in the game, people would be working for skins and just acquire the best skin, leaving the worse and average ones forgotten.

 

Thus there will still be power-creep because people will be looking for specific skins for power-play. There is no way to avoid power creep, only measures to slow it down. There will be skins that will be 100% more efficient and sadly those skins would be those that improve damage. No matter how the game progresses, due to fixed ammo start, the most important stat is damage, the more you have the better.

 

Sorry to shoot your idea, but this is the cons of it. It is not 100% perfect but it is indeed creative. I won't mind however maybe for specific weapon types only or weapon variants.

 

Thanks for the constructive post, you bring about an interesting point. (Which I honestly didn't consider.) I'd just like to add that future skins could easily be Master Locked as well. It's true that certain skins would be objectively better (and if enemies continue to become higher leveled, I welcome the higher stats,) but in the same way that weapons could be fenced-off, so too could weapon skins.

 

Ha, I deliberately avoided mentioning the effects on Mastery Rank. :-P I imagine that if DE were to roll this out, they would leave you Rank where it is to prevent de-leveling, but you would still have to catch up to where were before your bar would begin to fill again. (I would hope most players would be content enough with the benefits to not mind, but there are always... vocal dissenters.) 

 

Also, weapon skins could have a +/- XX% affect on base ammunition, in any case. (Not that I feel that's necessary.)

[Arunasoul]

Just a quick idea here, but since stats are different on skins in some cases, why not make the blueprints for the 'prime' versions completely a skin for what you already have. Addresses issues felt by the people who loved the weapon before it was a prime moving over to it, doesn't need the return of potatos, and more or less makes the prime a sought after 'upgrade' as opposed to 'new weapon' which is the source of people crying bloody murder over something that likely was implemented to make people smile.

 

As support, Brokk Hammer. Though I do understand that this would affect mastery rank, I don't think it would be crippling due to the large number of already existing things to contribute to that.

[Lumireaver]

Just a quick idea here, but since stats are different on skins in some cases, why not make the blueprints for the 'prime' versions completely a skin for what you already have. Addresses issues felt by the people who loved the weapon before it was a prime moving over to it, doesn't need the return of potatos, and more or less makes the prime a sought after 'upgrade' as opposed to 'new weapon' which is the source of people crying bloody murder over something that likely was implemented to make people smile.

 

As support, Brokk Hammer. Though I do understand that this would affect mastery rank, I don't think it would be crippling due to the large number of already existing things to contribute to that.

 

If I'm reading this right, you're suggesting the same thing I'm suggesting only phrased differently. :-P

[SLI-fox]

How about no. The Vandal weapons are rewards. And there will be more rewards, otherwise people won't get incentives to participate in events. So why take away another possible incentive just because people who join later can't get them.

 

If it was something like the snipetron being pulled and replaced with the Lanka, I'd be more understanding. But why go about punishing the older community just because newer players weren't about to actually participate. Just let them keep creating vandal weapons as trophies. If it upsets you so much that vandal weapons deal a small amount extra damage, boo frickity hoo. It doesn't mean its better than what you have on hand. All these posts about prime/vandal gear being more powerful makes me wonder why people don't just STRUGGLE TO MAKE THE PRIME GEAR THEMSELVES! I took the time to get frost prime and reaper prime, ain't too difficult at all.

[taiiat]

i have one criticism. you want the unique weapons atm to not be, but you want a thing that's a weapon skin atm to be it's own weapon. 

uhhh. kind've just swapping stuff around.

 

 

i'm leaning towards wanting to look for a downvote button, but if those skins had the stat changes we have now, and just lowering the number of items, then.... maybe. 

 

honestly, i'd be good with having metallic and pearlescent color palates. i want that friggin sick metallic blue :> and other colors, for that matter. 

(provided the color pack is updated and more color packs, and the prices should still be redesigned.... 75 Platinum is actually a bit expensive when a lot of the color palates are very similar to each other).

[Ariarch]

No thanks, I am good with the current system.

[Whyan]

+1 This makes more sense then what we have currently. Saves erryone slots, potatoes, time and promotes varied weapon use.

 

Just call the skins prime/vandal conversion kits and give them the stats they would have now in place of the standard stats of the normal weapon. If DE wanted to make the game more about sidegrades than you can just apply decreasing stats to balance the increased stats. It'll basically have the same mechanic when equipping alt helmets

Simple, easy and effective.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Whyan

[BadAimbot]

Having Primes be skins is the most elegant solution I think. Having to refund the investments people already have in their Primes seems icky, but we shouldn't leave it the way it is now. Maybe instead of a refund, the Primes just get converted to the regular versions, with the skin attached already. Either way though, I think Vandals should stay the way they are, because they're exclusive and stuff. I wouldn't mind if they got changed though.

[PomfPomfKimochi]

Minor suggestion. Please write a script to return the potatos and forma invested in Prime/Vandal variants in order to avoid controversy, then give those people who own them Prime/Vandal skins for the respective weapons. In this way, Prime/Vandal weapons can continue to be released without rendering their base models obsolete.

 

Please do this before the size of the Prime/Vandal pool becomes too large for it to be feasible.

 

On a related note, since Vor has his own unique weapon, please turn the Brokk hammer into it's own standalone existence. Make it not a skin, alongside all future unique boss weapons.

And what about mastery levels?

And the time invested into getting each weapon where they are?

I forma'd my Snipetron Vandal 3 times to get it to its current crit build.

The cost wasn't just 3 forma, it was the endless grinding needed to use those three forma.

 

What about people who bought the various founders' packages because they wanted the upgraded weapon?

Or the fact that significantly fewer people would grind out Orokin runs for a golden skin they can't even edit the trim on?

[TheDoctah]

I would really hate for these fantastic weapons  to come as only a skin, that is so....lame. I'm sorry, I'm usually open to ideas but this topic bothers me. It just seems a little silly that a slight stat increase instantly makes people think their previous weapon just suddenly turned useless as if it can't get kills anymore. 

 

Poster above me shares many good points too.

Edited July 15, 2013 by TheDoctah

[DominusKaiser]

-1 I would really hate to see every unique weapon downgraded to a simple skin as this was some COD game,even if you say some might improve the weapon and so this is not a solution,you would be taking away lots of weapon for possible mastery ranks in the future,this is open beta and currently as im informed(maybe outdate since the new stuff) you can go to rank 11 with every frame and weapon unlocked to lvl 30 wich it requires lvl 7 in the highest requeriment weapon at the moment in the open beta of the game..so by taking weapons out you would just take away experience from mastery,killing the events wich would reward just plain skins instead of an actual weapon and if we think of the lore that they´re implementing now why would the tenno just make skins instead of theyr own version of the weapons(Vandal),it would be like painting an Ak-47 to the colors of american flag and say its made in america and the colors make it shoot faster,no I don´t think it would work like that.

[derclaw]

Making simmilar weapons into "skins" is a great idea, since we already have skins that alter function of weapons, but allmighty money-grabing desire from devs made it so we dont get any of weapon skins now.

 

Imho - we need to have a blueprints for "base weapons" that can have multyple conversions (like Braton MK-1, Lato MK-1 etc) and then just get weapon kits aka "skins" to alter stats, or be some sort of one-time used item that permanently changes basic stats, without altering lvls, polarities and potatoes.

 

Transition from Braton Mk-1 to normal Braton can be and easy way to introduce such system for beginers, it will aslo remove the feeling of wasted time using Braton Mk-1.

 

So devs can have easyer time pumping new weapon variants, based on old designes, without frustartion for users of basic weapons.

 

For example Seer can be made into conversion kit for Kraken.

Edited July 15, 2013 by derclaw

[trasha]

I always said:

"Vandal" and "Prime" should be only skins, not stats difference

[theammostore]

I hate these threads. Ones discussing that primes and vandals should be as skins with slight stat buffs as opposed to actual weapons.

 

People, please, I understand what you want, but It's a separate weapon for a reason, which is (as far as I know) the Lore. The prime weapons are the originals, the very first of that weapon, and all the others are attempted replicas of things the Tenno have tried to make with the proper recipe, but not the right ingredients. Well know how much the Lore means to the game, so unless you want the Lore to start being rewritten...you may as well just learn to live with it.

 

Also, if you're going to say 'well, then why should I buy a new weapon when the prime is going to come out at some point,' please stop typing. I bet you are the same person who has never bought a cell phone or a car (taking in that you are financially able to) simply because the newer and better version will come out in a year or a week. This is how things work, everywhere, better things come out, and you just have to take what you got.

 

I wouldn't be upset if this change happened, I just don't feel like it should happen.