DE we NEED to have a serious talk about Riven mods

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

9 minutes ago, Floppinger said:

Why would that be an issue? If people ask ridiculous prices and others are willing to pay them, that´s their problem.

Because DE only cares about profits, if they piss off the whales then how will they make easy money with minimal development?

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

9 minutes ago, zombi3h3art said:

Riven mods are messing up, my game just reminded me that i was doing good on riven mod progress and if i extract it would be good, when i leave the mission i got nothing. there was no error on my part and the riven was completed but when i reenterd my liset the riven mod gave me nothing.

Been hearing this is a pretty common issue

Just to be safe try reporting it to DE if theres not already a thread about it

Or contact DE support to see if they can at least identify a bug or offer a possible solution or workaround until a patch comes

[zombi3h3art]

Just now, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Been hearing this is a pretty common issue

Just to be safe try reporting it to DE if theres not already a thread about it

Or contact DE support to see if they can at least identify a bug or offer a possible solution or workaround until a patch comes

I did try contacting DE support on sunday-monday but they still havnt replied, ive been bumping the question too.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

1 minute ago, zombi3h3art said:

I did try contacting DE support on sunday-monday but they still havnt replied, ive been bumping the question too.

They are drowning in bug reports right now

Ill give you some heads up, DE support takes about 1-3 weeks when they ARENT busy with a huge content update

So with all The War Within issues, expect a hefty wait time but most likely a patch will be hotfixed soon^TM (hopefully)

[Xzorn]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Why are you still here? And how can you call others greedy?

If you disagree with the MAJORITY of our community and actually AGREE with DE's broken and unfair design choices, why waste time here when you could be in game "earning" another "40,000 plat"? - All that plat of course from the people that actually have jobs to support themselves, and the games development with their purchases, and thus are infinitely more qualified and invested to share their feedback, than hypocritical free2play scammers that DO NOT put their money where their lying mouths are.

 

Thank you for re-enforcing my opinion on the player type who's apposed to this system.

I value play time, therefore there's no need for me to buy plat as I'm only robbing myself of that play time.

A player is not more qualified to give feedback because they spend money. In fact it's the opposite.

The people who play this game 100% free would be the ideal players to give feedback on if a loot system is too complicated or difficult. They've likely put x10 the hours into the game than someone who buys their way through progression and therefore likely know more about the game. There's a reason Devs do play thoughs with new accounts.

I'm here because I have an opposing view and I'm allowed to express it.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

2 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Thank you for re-enforcing my opinion on the player type who's apposed to this system.

I value play time, therefore there's no need for me to buy plat as I'm only robbing myself of that play time.

A player is not more qualified to give feedback because they spend money. In fact it's the opposite.

The people who play this game 100% free would be the ideal players to give feedback on if a loot system is too complicated or difficult. They've likely put x10 the hours into the game than someone who buys their way through progression and therefore likely know more about the game. There's a reason Devs do play thoughs with new accounts.

I'm here because I have an opposing view and I'm allowed to express it.

And yet with this current broken loot system veterans are getting crap mods for sentinel guns and noobs are getting 150% crit, damage, and crit damage on synoids, somas, and tonkors.

And then casual players can just "buy their way through progression" by purchasing these OP mods for plat, then powerleveling with affinity boosters to reach the required Mastery Rank, and being 3 times stronger than most veterans whose only sin was bad RNG given to them by DE themselves

Its not fair for ANYONE. 

[Gsterman]

Just gonna leave this here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZblBufb4k

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

You have no argument outside speculation and "feelings" like the rest of the community barking about RIven mods. It's nothing more than a Witch hunt by greedy players who want instant results in a F2P game without paying for it.

Nooooo Freebies are greedy!!!

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

A player is not more qualified to give feedback because they spend money. In fact it's the opposite.

The people who play this game 100% free would be the ideal players to give feedback on if a loot system is too complicated or difficult. They've likely put x10 the hours into the game than someone who buys their way through progression and therefore likely know more about the game. There's a reason Devs do play thoughs with new accounts.

Nooooo Paid players are less qualified to give feedback!!!

Achievement unlocked : ICE AND FIRE

[Xzorn]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

And yet with this current broken loot system veterans are getting crap mods for sentinel guns and noobs are getting 150% crit, damage, and crit damage on synoids, somas, and tonkors.

And then casual players can just "buy their way through progression" by purchasing these OP mods for plat, then powerleveling with affinity boosters to reach the required Mastery Rank, and being 3 times stronger than most veterans whose only sin was bad RNG given to them by DE themselves

Its not fair for ANYONE. 

 

You're leaving out that Veterans can also buy these mods as I've stated before and they can do so without spending money because they've been playing a long time.

Should you also get super jelly because someone got a Legendary Core from Sorties and you didn't or maybe because they have x10 stack Arcane Energize?

You've made no point other than jealousy.   Cash = Plat = Time = Progression. That's how F2P works.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

You're leaving out that Veterans can also buy these mods as I've stated before and they can do so without spending money because they've been playing a long time.

Should you also get super jelly because someone got a Legendary Core from Sorties and you didn't or maybe because they have x10 stack Arcane Energize?

You've made no point other than jealousy.   Cash = Plat = Time = Progression. That's how F2P works.

All arcanes and legendary cores and mods are the same no matter who gets them

We are frustrated that Rivens are random stats AND can be garbage

Would you use an Arcane Energize with 125% energy reduction? LOL

[Gsterman]

20 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

You're leaving out that Veterans can also buy these mods as I've stated before and they can do so without spending money because they've been playing a long time.

Should you also get super jelly because someone got a Legendary Core from Sorties and you didn't or maybe because they have x10 stack Arcane Energize?

You've made no point other than jealousy.   Cash = Plat = Time = Progression. That's how F2P works.

Im pretty sure people are mad because of how RNG the stats are and how irrelevant they can be, and the fact that the system totally fails its intended purpose. Some of the stats are just downright stupid. Gee, -140 multishot? I would love a chance for my gun to not shoot anything, right?

Or the fact that you can have only 15 riven mods. Contrary to what the dev workshop says, limiting things doesnt increase creativity or choice. That entire thought process is redundant. If anything, im going to throw out all my rivens for underpowered weapons in favor of rivens for overpowered weapons, because why would I keep a riven mod for the miter when I could keep one for the tonkor?

And no, riven mods do not give "interesting quirks". They give straight up stat increases that range from pitiful to ridiculously overpowered. An interesting quirk would be something like a chance to knockdown enemies every shot, armor penetration, etc. 

Not to mention that the kuva cost increase is completely ridiculous. at your 30th cycle it would cost somewhere around 80,000. That's completely ridiculous.

A better system would be to have cycles be a set cost and then you can pay additional kuva to lock the stats you want. 

[Xzorn]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

All arcanes and legendary cores and mods are the same no matter who gets them

We are frustrated that Rivens are random stats AND can be garbage

Would you use an Arcane Energize with 125% energy reduction? LOL

 

I wouldn't have much problem with set numbers but I would prefer to keep random stats. From what I've seen the mods with a negative stat also have higher positives than usual so there is value in those RNG stat types. Removing the random numbers to the stats cuts into the long term value of the mods but it's something I'd be fine with.

I'm opposed to making things too easy.

People complain that prime farming was too RNG when I found it quite easy and now Prime farming is trivial. I obviously have a higher threshold for play time Vs reward than the average player but making things easier is actually why I don't buy plat. If I ever found it hard to progress, I mean even the slightest than I would invest in plat but as it's been for years now, this game supplies very little long term play value which is why I've turned stacking plat into a progression system. I sell the rest of my progression to other player which is what I will inevitably do with this system.

I'd rather get the most of it before I hit that point.

[Medereyes]

On 11/13/2016 at 5:21 PM, Phatose said:

I'm more then anything astounded by this system making it into the game at all, when Steve and Sheldon both seemed to indicate their worst mistake was using numbers too large on the mod system.  This just compounds the problem of having huge numbers to begin with.

This could mean that Steve and Sheldon didn't have a voice in the decision. Future features may not be under their control either. Remember that Steve sold all his stock in the company in the buyout.

[Xzorn]

11 minutes ago, Gsterman said:

Im pretty sure people are mad because of how RNG the stats are and how irrelevant they can be, and the fact that the system totally fails its intended purpose. Some of the stats are just downright stupid. Gee, -140 multishot? I would love a chance for my gun to not shoot anything, right?

Or the fact that you can have only 15 riven mods. Contrary to what the dev workshop says, limiting things doesnt increase creativity or choice. That entire thought process is redundant. If anything, im going to throw out all my rivens for underpowered weapons in favor of rivens for overpowered weapons, because why would I keep a riven mod for the miter when I could keep one for the tonkor?

And no, riven mods do not give "interesting quirks". They give straight up stat increases that range from pitiful to ridiculously overpowered. An interesting quirk would be something like a chance to knockdown enemies every shot, armor penetration, etc. 

Not to mention that the kuva cost increase is completely ridiculous. at your 30th cycle it would cost somewhere around 80,000. That's completely ridiculous.

A better system would be to have cycles be a set cost and then you can pay additional kuva to lock the stats you want. 

 

From what I've seen so far the negative stats seem to allow higher positives, at least the 4 rolls ones I've seen. That's only speculation though. If not then they seem very needless.

The 15 cap is indeed needless and contrary to the purpose of the system. You can't limit something then say be creative. That's nonsense.

They give alternate build options, I can't really say what "interesting quirks" covers but say for instance you have Braton Prime which can be built either crit or status and you get a Riven with +%multishot +%crit +%crit damage. Now you can build Braton Prime as a hybrid Crit + Status that's superior to both of it's other builds. At the same time you can get +%status +% multishot +%Bane and it will be an insane armor shredding weapon against Grineer. They do actually supply more value to lesser weapons than meta ones due to enemy exponential Hp or eHP growth. You might get +100 levels from Tonkor but you'll get +150 levels from Braton Prime. It closes the gap between the weapons.

The increasing Kuva costs is because they want you to decide if it's worth rolling or junking the mod. This preserves the value of the Riven mod system as previously anytime they add a mod it sells for 100p first day then it's worthless a week later because everyone has one and will never need another and yet they continue to drop. The system means that you will often want more than one of the same Riven weapon not only for different builds but because the cost got too high on a previous one. It mean they will remain valuable for much longer than typical items.

The base cost might be off, I can't say for sure but the concept of every increasing costs is sound. They may want to add other Kuva acquisition options as spamming the same mission over and over is not fun and it's why I refused to do fissures until endless missions came back. The Kuva Fortress is an ideal area. Endless rotation rewards, Caches, Secret Rooms, ect

[Nox_Terminus]

To everyone saying Riven Mods are just a "time issue" you have no idea how RNG works.

The chance you'll get the mod for a weapon you want? Minimal

The chance you'll get good bonuses and stats? Minimal

The chance you'll get good bonuses and stats which match the weapon? Minimal

The chance you'll get good bonuses and stats which match the weapon and the mod is for a weapon you want? Infinitesimal

Now for the test, do me a favor and roll 100 D20's, tell me when you manage to roll 100 20's in a row, and then tell me it isn't an absurd system. This type of loot mechanic removes the purpose of investing time into the game, as rather than your mod being based upon the work you did to finally get it to where you want, it is simply down to luck, and nothing else. Borderlands imploded because of it, Destiny imploded partially because of it, and any MMO which did this without some sort of compensation imploded because of it. Do not turn what should be a test of skill and patience into a slot machine.

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Nox_Terminus

[PsychoTech.ARMS]

I agree to all those points as well... after messing around with them, I found that they don't bring lower/older tier weapons up to par with the others. In fact, it only spreads the gap even wider. If this wasn't the intent, then it wasn't executed correctly.

 

Example: there is not one single Riven Gorgon mod that will increase its potential compared to a Dread Riven Mod that adds yet even more Crit to chance & Dmg. The mods used on Prisma Gorgons are so vital that trading one of these out for a Riven Mod actually hurts the weapon. not help it.

 

These mods only help weapons that are already at the top tier.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by PsychoTechARMS

[PsychoTech.ARMS]

On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 9:04 PM, Cpl_Facehugger said:

 

Also, a lot of people seem to be open to trying out new builds with old guns that weren't part of the meta before ala paracyst, dera, braton, etc because of riven mods. Council chat has a lot more discussion on how to use non-meta weapons now than it did last week, almost solely because of riven mods making it so that taking weak weapons into sorties and killing effectively is actually a possibility.

I have to disagree with you there. Replacing any mod that is already vital to a weaker weapon for another will not make it that much better. yes, it will increase it's potential a little bit. However, not nearly as to the point of making them viable. especially for Sorties.

[Trittium00]

38 minutes ago, PsychoTechARMS said:

I found that they don't bring lower/older tier weapons up to par with the others. In fact, it only spreads the gap even wider. If this wasn't the intent, then it wasn't executed correctly.

Yes this is indeed something which I've noticed as well and unfortunately it comes down to the core of the way the game deals with stat increases.

That is: the game takes a base stat and increases it multiplicitavely.

This fact is crucial to the way these mods (and any mod in the game really) behave. It takes the base stat, be it damage or crit chance and increases it by the % on the mod. This is what allows crit builds or status builds to be possible. 

Take for instance Weapon A with a base damage of 100 and Weapon B with a base damage of 200. Unmodded they have a difference of 100. Apply a +200% damage mod. Weapon A goes to 300 damage while Weapon B goes to 600 damage. The difference is now 300.

This is a very simplistic example but it shows how with multiplication, damage discrepancies can escalate pretty quickly!

[PsychoTech.ARMS]

3 minutes ago, Trittium00 said:

Yes this is indeed something which I've noticed as well and unfortunately it comes down to the core of the way the game deals with stat increases.

That is: the game takes a base stat and increases it multiplicitavely.

This fact is crucial to the way these mods (and any mod in the game really) behave. It takes the base stat, be it damage or crit chance and increases it by the % on the mod. This is what allows crit builds or status builds to be possible. 

Take for instance Weapon A with a base damage of 100 and Weapon B with a base damage of 200. Unmodded they have a difference of 100. Apply a +200% damage mod. Weapon A goes to 300 damage while Weapon B goes to 600 damage. The difference is now 300.

This is a very simplistic example but it shows how with multiplication, damage discrepancies can escalate pretty quickly!

yes, very much so. At first I was hoping that they would ADD to lower weapons base stats and leave the higher tier ones multiplicative.

It would take some work to categories them as such, but I feel that it makes more sense than to make these lower weapons even more less viable.

[Fomiru]

The entire system falls in on itself and just doesn't make sense from a design perspective at all.  They have promised to make the grind less awful, but in fact have made it increasingly worse over time.  Rivens, but also the Relic system are proof of this.

The 7 layers of RNG on getting a mod that's actually useful, the fact that when you reroll the stats the cost exponentially raises, the fact that you can't lock in a good stat you don't want to reroll for more kuva...  It just doesn't make sense, at all.  Is this endgame?  A feedback loop where I just hope I roll well?  These mods aren't even unique, just pure stat increases for no other reason other than to be stat increases, stat increases we already have with other mods.

Obtaining Kuva doesn't make sense either, wouldn't it make sense if it was a resource from doing some of the higher level missions specifically, a resource we accrued over time as we played instead of hoping we get something to spawn inside our mission.  The supposed "End-Game" is rng with getting a useful Riven mod, then rng getting the resource minigame to even spawn to gather a paltry amount before retrieving more.

This system has a lot of potential but it is too anti-progression to even be reasonable.  The worst thing?  We don't even need Riven Mods to trivialize the star chart as it is.  Serious changes ( even beyond the current proposed changes ) need to be made to make this system better.

 

[Trittium00]

43 minutes ago, PsychoTechARMS said:

It would take some work to categories them as such, but I feel that it makes more sense than to make these lower weapons even more less viable.

Mmm yes I've had similar thoughts along these lines as well. Although there are few mods which add to base stats in the current game - but they do exist! Such as the Maiming Strike acolyte mod. They're not common but it's been done before.

Speaking of categories, perhaps they could 'categorise' already strong weapons from the weaker weapons and limit the max stat which can be rolled in the form of damage for the stronger ones.

For example, a Tonkor riven mod may be limited to +90% base damage. While a weaker category of weapon, say the Burston may be allowed to go up to +180% base damage. Both get extra damage but because the 'weaker' weapon starts from a lower base, it gets a higher increase. Something like that could work for the stated design intent of bringing less used weapons into the player's arsenal.

It would require some more attention and fine tuning by the developers, but the work would pay off in the long run and may allow weapons to shift 'categories' should they need less or more of a boost.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Trittium00

[IceColdHawk]

1 hour ago, PsychoTechARMS said:

I have to disagree with you there. Replacing any mod that is already vital to a weaker weapon for another will not make it that much better. yes, it will increase it's potential a little bit. However, not nearly as to the point of making them viable. especially for Sorties.

And i have to disagree with you there. My burston prime is actually my strongest assault rifle now, even outdpsing soma prime. And more than viable enough for sorties.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

On 11/14/2016 at 0:04 AM, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Council chat has a lot more discussion on how to use non-meta weapons now than it did last week, almost solely because of riven mods making it so that taking weak weapons into sorties and killing effectively is actually a possibility.

Council chat wouldve had even more non-meta discussion if DE did the right thing and made it for non-meta weapons only, and removed the negative stats or at least put them on par with corrupt mods to the point where they were still viable

Please tell me more on how the Chosen Elite Wallet Warriors of Warframe are able to use a Flux Rifle and Gorgon in Sorties with a -135% multishot Riven mod (no bullets) or -125% damage (you actually heal the enemies). Oh but Im sure the extra zoom is making up for all that.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

52 minutes ago, I3oggle said:

The entire system falls in on itself and just doesn't make sense from a design perspective at all.  They have promised to make the grind less awful, but in fact have made it increasingly worse over time.  Rivens, but also the Relic system are proof of this.

The 7 layers of RNG on getting a mod that's actually useful, the fact that when you reroll the stats the cost exponentially raises, the fact that you can't lock in a good stat you don't want to reroll for more kuva...  It just doesn't make sense, at all.  Is this endgame?  A feedback loop where I just hope I roll well?  These mods aren't even unique, just pure stat increases for no other reason other than to be stat increases, stat increases we already have with other mods.

Obtaining Kuva doesn't make sense either, wouldn't it make sense if it was a resource from doing some of the higher level missions specifically, a resource we accrued over time as we played instead of hoping we get something to spawn inside our mission.  The supposed "End-Game" is rng with getting a useful Riven mod, then rng getting the resource minigame to even spawn to gather a paltry amount before retrieving more.

This system has a lot of potential but it is too anti-progression to even be reasonable.  The worst thing?  We don't even need Riven Mods to trivialize the star chart as it is.  Serious changes ( even beyond the current proposed changes ) need to be made to make this system better.

 

Well said.

 

Especially the last part. 

 

The Star Chart is way too easy. Normal missions are a joke. Even sorties are a joke now due to Riven mods.

 

I cannot foresee DE either fixing this, or adding actual challenging content beyond artificial scaling in the near future. I do miss the old days before corrupt mods when the game actually was hard, and you actually relied on ninja tactics to survive.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

5 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

Nooooo Freebies are greedy!!!

Nooooo Paid players are less qualified to give feedback!!!

Achievement unlocked : ICE AND FIRE

Im dead 

Top tier reply 

Worth making the thread just for comments like this