Riven System is highly unrewarding and may lead to the downfall of warframe

[Hero2102None]

14 hours ago, ChasePanic said:

Just finished the sortie, thats my 8th 2k endo in a row.

I feel for you, i get depressed after 2 in a row.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

There is an entire thread dedicated for constructive feedback of the revins and on how to make them better. Good luck to you 

[Extroah]

15 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Downfall of warframe? When you can just ignore it completely if not interested? Wow.

The way i see it is more like an uprising. Finally a reason to play sorties every day. And finally a reason to max out and actually USE weapons (also for sorties) that i have never used before outside of leveling.

^ This guy/girl gets it. I've never player Sorties before, now i do. Imho most people that complain and think it's the death of Warframe are just salty that they didnt get +10000% Damage on Tonkor/Simulor/Dread.

[achromos]

9 hours ago, Second_Measure said:

The problem is, when certain older weapons gain popularity through new event/syndicate/missions mods and DE decides that their Riven bonus needs to be toned down in response to it, you eventually wasted your time on them again.

Until that weapons use balances out.  Negative to desentivize, positive to incentiviz.  Ideally you would want neutral Disposition.

[GamingVirtue]

14 hours ago, achromos said:

Time Investment in a game creates Value, a sense of Value that everyone can share if they put in ENOUGH time.

Okay, then take me, for example. Nearly everything I have in the game, minus cosmetics, has been earned through grinding away. I'm currently sitting on MR18 as of tonight, which I've worked toward intermittently from around the time Open Beta started. I've spent probably $400-500 on platinum and bought the Ash Prime Access pack, as well, just in case I might be judged for not putting money into the game, too.

And yet, these Riven mods strike me as absolutely the wrong direction to go with the game. This isn't standard DE-grade RNG. This isn't more nonsense that they're gonna promise to "reduce the grind" on...no, this is RNG stacked on RNG, with the chance to get a NEW set of stats through RNG stacked on RNG. I've played dozens of Grineer lv30+ missions since completing TWW and I haven't seen one Kuva Siphon, so to hell with re-rolling the mod I haven't unlocked yet because it expects me to get 4 headshot kills in a single aimglide. And even then, it's possibly for a weapon I've already leveled up and thrown away, and possibly completely garbage when paired with its weapon anyway.

So, tell me why I should care, why this is somehow exciting, why this is somehow...valuable. This adds nothing to the game that wasn't already present in a weaker form. The only thing we have that's new is a chance to get screwed multiple times in a single sitting, which I don't feel adds much to the game in any constructive manner. Sure, the Kuva Fortress is nice and the levels are more complex, but they're done in a single run and there's barely any point in running them more than once other than hoping DESPERATELY that you get a siphon this time, and you could do that on Sedna already.

So...while time investment in a game creates value, it's nice to get a sense that your time investment is respected. And when the developer puts in things that require ridiculous feats of accuracy or skill and doesn't even give any sort of insurance against getting something useless, that's not a sign of respect for the time invested.

I love Warframe...I truly do...but this simply isn't going to end well. Players don't need a constant stream of victories to be enticed to stay, but it's fairly important that they feel their expenditure of time and effort (and money) is respected, and the Riven mod system just doesn't do that.

[arch111]

I am not touching this system. To many voices form a choir of caution.

[VonDodo]

40 minutes ago, Extroah said:

^ This guy/girl gets it. I've never player Sorties before, now i do. Imho most people that complain and think it's the death of Warframe are just salty that they didnt get +10000% Damage on Tonkor/Simulor/Dread.

I don't Use simulor/tonkor/dread because they are unfun

I got 1 OP mod per weapon i use (soma/grakata/2Xparis)

I got 8 in total half of wich have at least 2 godly stats.

 

I would gladly lose all if they throw down the drain riven system.

That because except for people who talks about nothing i experienced already the fall og mmo into the Grinding and P2w trap when devs started to replace content with RNG.

I am too old to not know perfectly where this will lead.... i.e if they release riven for secondaries OR melees i'lll definitely leave as i did for GW2 and other bait and switch games (despite in warframe the bait was not direct but from its reputation of grindfree non P2W).

 

And trust me..if you want to know how it feels to play without riven in a riven full game, just remember when you were a newbie and played sorties.... You desperately tried to headshot enemies to get some kill, while the usual guy just lazily wiped the area without even aiming...... not much fun.

 

(Just for info... a nerfed soma mod, turns the rifle into a reliable red critting beast....tell me again they don't matter....also as predicted they nerfed soma and buffed grakata..... not a smart thing to do...some weapons are popular not because they are better than Others).

 

[Extroah]

2 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

I don't Use simulor/tonkor/dread because they are unfun

I got 1 OP mod per weapon i use (soma/grakata/2Xparis)

I got 8 in total half of wich have at least 2 godly stats.

 

I would gladly lose all if they throw down the drain riven system.

That because except for people who talks about nothing i experienced already the fall og mmo into the Grinding and P2w trap when devs started to replace content with RNG.

I am too old to not know perfectly where this will lead.... i.e if they release riven for secondaries OR melees i'lll definitely leave as i did for GW2 and other bait and switch games (despite in warframe the bait was not direct but from its reputation of grindfree non P2W).

 

And trust me..if you want to know how it feels to play without riven in a riven full game, just remember when you were a newbie and played sorties.... You desperately tried to headshot enemies to get some kill, while the usual guy just lazily wiped the area without even aiming...... not much fun.

 

(Just for info... a nerfed soma mod, turns the rifle into a reliable red critting beast....tell me again they don't matter....also as predicted they nerfed soma and buffed grakata..... not a smart thing to do...some weapons are popular not because they are better than Others).

 

Doesnt really make sense to me. It's a PVE Game, you are NOT forced to use Riven Mods and you or others won't have any advantage for using or not using them except being able to use more Weapons or kill Enemies faster. If it was PVP then yeah, i could see that it could damage the Game overall, but it's not.

And, as i said, i just NOW started playing Sorties after playing the game for 4 Years so i'm not exactly a Noob anymore. Still struggling if i'm going solo, which isnt very often, because i'm a Melee only player, but far from a noob.

Also, DE isn't replacing any Content with RNG, RNG was always there and so is it in almost all other Games. It's just that some people on the Forums are more whiny than they are on other Games, like, I haven't seen lots of players complain in Path of Exile about the absurd RNG, they more so embrace it and make fun of it just as most players do on warframe, but some people just want things to change their way or else the Game will "die within a year".

[VonDodo]

Just now, Extroah said:

Doesnt really make sense to me. It's a PVE Game, you are NOT forced to use Riven Mods and you or others won't have any advantage for using or not using them except being able to use more Weapons or kill Enemies faster. If it was PVP then yeah, i could see that it could damage the Game overall, but it's not.

And, as i said, i just NOW started playing Sorties after playing the game for 4 Years so i'm not exactly a Noob anymore. Still struggling if i'm going solo, which isnt very often, because i'm a Melee only player, but far from a noob.

Also, DE isn't replacing any Content with RNG, RNG was always there and so is it in almost all other Games. It's just that some people on the Forums are more whiny than they are on other Games, like, I haven't seen lots of players complain in Path of Exile about the absurd RNG, they more so embrace it and make fun of it just as most players do on warframe, but some people just want things to change their way or else the Game will "die within a year".

Lets see:

1) this is a PvE game

2) quoting personal experience not basing on facts

3) forum is whiny

 

You lack originality.... and as we said we already seen where those things lead in PvE games with whiny forums.

Not a single time your already overused points were proven right.....

[Extroah]

4 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

Lets see:

1) this is a PvE game

2) quoting personal experience not basing on facts

3) forum is whiny

 

You lack originality.... and as we said we already seen where those things lead in PvE games with whiny forums.

Not a single time your already overused points were proven right.....

 Just because you don't want to accept that the Game isn't suddenly dying off because of Riven Mods?

" And trust me..if you want to know how it feels to play without riven in a riven full game " Is like saying "Play an MMORPG P-Server that has Donate-Weapons without having Donate-Weapons". Been there, done that. Had no problems as it's the way you use your Gear that matters.

" I am too old to not know perfectly where this will lead " didn't you just say "quoting personal experience not basing on facts" ?

" (Just for info... a nerfed soma mod, turns the rifle into a reliable red critting beast....tell me again they don't matter....also as predicted they nerfed soma and buffed grakata..... not a smart thing to do...some weapons are popular not because they are better than Others). " So? A +200% Critical Chance +200% Critical Damage Mod would even turn Dual Skana or Venka into Red Crit Beasts, your point being? Just because they do make good Weapons slightly better doesn't mean that they don't make bad Weapons good.

As i said above, just doesnt make any sense.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Extroah said:

^ This guy/girl gets it. I've never player Sorties before, now i do. Imho most people that complain and think it's the death of Warframe are just salty that they didnt get +10000% Damage on Tonkor/Simulor/Dread.

Actually the tonkor/simulor/dread crowd is probably loving this crap, since rivens can push those weapons just over the edge of insane damage, even after the nerfs.  Most of the people who hate this system either hate the insurmountable RNG grind of it (it will take you an average of 6 months of grinding to get a mod for a gun you want with the stats you want without trading), or they understand that even in the best case scenarios offered by the RNG, rivens will never fulfill their stated purpose of "providing new & interesting gameplay and modding options to under-used and under-appreciated weapons".  You can't augment weapon stats with % modifiers and expect them to make a meaningful change  when the base stats are total garbage.  All you can do is amplify what's already there; and most weapons that suck, suck because there's nothing there to work with in the first place.  Add 20% base status to a weapon that had none before and now you have interesting new modding possibilities.  This system doesn't do that, and it throws negative modifiers at you to boot.

The system is broken, it won't do what it's supposed to, and it's the complete opposite of everything that's made Warframe the game it is.

I'm in the exact opposite boat regarding the sorties.  I used to do sorties for a chance at building up event weapons that I'd missed while away from the game for one reason or the other.  Collecting Nezha sets and selling them for plat was also a nice perk.  Now, it's literally nothing but endo and a bunch of lenses.  I got 1 mod for a weapon that honestly is easier to mod and functions just as well if not better without the riven (cycled the dumb thing a good 6 times so far).  I'm sick of the dumb mod already, and I'm sick of farming kuva for rerolls that inevitably disappoint.  Understanding how broken the riven system is, I have no desire to put time and effort into it and hence no desire to do sorties.

[Extroah]

2 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

 rivens will never fulfill their stated purpose of "providing new & interesting gameplay and modding options to under-used and under-appreciated weapons".  You can't augment weapon stats with % modifiers and expect them to make a meaningful change  when the base stats are total garbage.  All you can do is amplify what's already there; and most weapons that suck, suck because there's nothing there to work with in the first place.  Add 20% base status to a weapon that had none before

I agree with this part, though the current method is still better than nothing imho.

[--Q--Ascended-Seraphim]

15 minutes ago, Extroah said:

I agree with this part, though the current method is still better than nothing imho.

The current method of Riven Mods based on pure RNG and no player control, creates an unclosable gap between those who play for free and those who  pay to win.

You will Never be on par with  110% crit chance, 110% crit damage, 110% multishot riven mod soma prime user.

Unless you shell out the plat. Or win the lottery.

The problem is compounded once Melee, warframe, sentinel etc. gets released.

[Extroah]

1 minute ago, --Q--Ascended-Seraphim said:

The current method of Riven Mods based on pure RNG and no player control, creates an unclosable gap between those who play for free and those who  pay to win.

You will Never be on par with  110% crit chance, 110% crit damage, 110% multishot riven mod soma prime user.

Unless you shell out the plat. Or win the lottery.

The problem is compounded once Melee, warframe, sentinel etc. gets released.

But you can control wether or not you want to take the new reroll or keep your old one. Also you dont have to spend a single plat on Riven Mods, just play the game and you'll be fine. I really don't see a problem here, and i've had mediocre at best rolls on Tonkor and Vectis mods, but it's probably because i don't care about Rifles as i only use Melee, we'll see if my opinion will chance once Melee Rivens come out.

[--Q--Ascended-Seraphim]

10 minutes ago, Extroah said:

But you can control wether or not you want to take the new reroll or keep your old one. Also you dont have to spend a single plat on Riven Mods, just play the game and you'll be fine. I really don't see a problem here, and i've had mediocre at best rolls on Tonkor and Vectis mods, but it's probably because i don't care about Rifles as i only use Melee, we'll see if my opinion will chance once Melee Rivens come out.

The existing form of "control" my friend, is what we call "gambling". You get no desired outcome over your actions. Just blindly roll until you win the lottery.

The current riven system does not incentivize play time. It encourages bypassing RNG with Plat. If you want to be at the top.

You'll definately be fine for now without Riven Mods as the system is too premature to have any impact on existing gameplay.

But once it permeates the system deep enough. It'll be too late.

 

[Patzer]

They are going to right direction I think, but still with current iteration I'm not going to spent tens of thousands kuva and dozens of hours for CHANGE to make some old weapon viable.

At the moment I'm sitting on 70k kuva and 5 different rivens and waiting for next patch with fingers crossed.

[Extroah]

2 minutes ago, --Q--Ascended-Seraphim said:

The existing form of "control" my friend, is what we call "gambling". You get no desired outcome over your actions. Just blindly roll until you win the lottery.

The current riven system does not incentivize play time. It encourages bypassing RNG with Plat. If you want to be at the top.

You'll definately be fine for now without Riven Mods as the system is too premature to have any impact on existing gameplay.

But once it permeates the system deep enough. It'll be too late.

Yeah it really is somewhat of a gamble, but at least we now have the chance to keep our old one. I actually play a lot more and also like farming Kuva, but i guess i'm used to that kind of 'gambling' from many years of "awakening" parts in mmorpgs and therefore think that we got it good compared to other games. Different people like different things though so yeah.

[Xekrin]

17 hours ago, ChasePanic said:

Yup. After seeing the riven system I knew the game was about to enter its final year. They've pretty much taken a massive dump on the community that has built around this game having a degree of fairness to it.

Because its been out less than two weeks and its totally set in stone and will never ever ever change.  Right?  Based on your massive dump insult though I feel you want to quit anyway and are just looking for an excuse?

[VonDodo]

1 hour ago, Extroah said:

 Just because you don't want to accept that the Game isn't suddenly dying off because of Riven Mods?

" And trust me..if you want to know how it feels to play without riven in a riven full game " Is like saying "Play an MMORPG P-Server that has Donate-Weapons without having Donate-Weapons". Been there, done that. Had no problems as it's the way you use your Gear that matters.

" I am too old to not know perfectly where this will lead " didn't you just say "quoting personal experience not basing on facts" ?

" (Just for info... a nerfed soma mod, turns the rifle into a reliable red critting beast....tell me again they don't matter....also as predicted they nerfed soma and buffed grakata..... not a smart thing to do...some weapons are popular not because they are better than Others). " So? A +200% Critical Chance +200% Critical Damage Mod would even turn Dual Skana or Venka into Red Crit Beasts, your point being? Just because they do make good Weapons slightly better doesn't mean that they don't make bad Weapons good.

As i said above, just doesnt make any sense.

1) i don t even understand what you are saying....the game won't suddenly die...it will generate lot of money on the short period (1-2 months)....die on the long period... (1 year seems reasonable if they keep this system)...its the usual mmo trap... people wants to be sure before leaving something they invested time and money is and most of anything virtual friendships....But when they lose the trust they start looking for a plan out... and any new game can be one.

 

 

2) Bad try.... The outcome of a Whole online game with millions players is different from a single player experience like your.

3) another pointless answer. A skana without a riven mod is still uncomparable to a skana with a good riven mod...you also just proven the failure of the reason (but imho its an excuse and not a reason... real purpose is cash*) why riven mods were designed. Also there are no melee riven mod. If you compare instead the same weapons with and without riven mod the difference is too high.... it get worse if you happen to vcompare a 2-3 popular stats riven mod with an average one.

You are just trying to play with words..but in the end you still didn t give a single reason in favour of riven mods.. On the opposite you were trying so hard that you actually said iven mods would not help bad weapons to be played.

And since i am sure you will try some other wordplay i think i won'd waste my time unless you post facts.

 

*since differently from you i like to point out facts... Riven mods are sold for 10X platinum the most sought of items in the game. Platinum is generated only from real money.

Edited November 21, 2016 by VonDodo

[Extroah]

2 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

You are just trying to play with words..but in the end you still didn t give a single reason in favour of riven mods.. On the opposite you were trying so hard that you actually said iven mods would not help bad weapons to be played.

And since i am sure you will try some other wordplay i think i won'd waste my time unless you post facts.

Where did i do that? lol. I think you're missing the point. The point is not that the same Weapon without Riven Mod is worse than the Weapon with Riven Mod. (Duuh.) The point is that Riven Mods benefit bad Weapons and may make them viable again, doesn't matter if it's Melee, Sentinel, Primary, Secondary or Kavats/Kubrows. Yes, they do benefit already OP Weapons aswell, but their effects have been nerfed. (And will most probably change again in a couple days anyways)

And just out of curiousity, where did i compare a Multiplayer experience with a Singleplayer Experience? If that was targeted towards Path of Exile, you can actually play together with Friends, just like Warframe, you know. I could even compare it to Borderlands, you can play Co-Op PVE just like Warframe, and got RNG Weapon Stats, and most probably the same outcome would apply or else it wouldn't be as popular.

If you want facts then maybe try and think logically as nothing you've said in the past replies made any sense. And as i've said " Just because they do make good Weapons slightly better doesn't mean that they don't make bad Weapons good."

[(XBOX)DerangedMime00]

Riven mods should have been used solely on Warframes themselves when it boils down to it. Exilus slots could have benefited greatly with the stats presented plus it would have added more flexibility to builds over the press 4 to win problem. Imagine if you had an exilus/aura mod that combines Rush, Power Drift, and Master Thief. That would be useful and not as game breaking.

[polarity]

The idea behind a Skinner box is that when you get a reward, the dopamine rush from a success encourages you to keep trying, as the repeated experience also generates a dopamine high, even if it doesn't always have a positive end result.

However, when that initial dopamine high is offset by a huge run of disappointments, the Skinner box fails to work for all but the most dopamine addicted, as the repeated experience instead generates feelings of hopelessness.

Even rats will starve to death rather than keep pushing a button a million times for a chance at a food pellet.

The balance between RNG and work in/reward out needs to fall below a certain threshold for players to accept it.

[xFrostKnightx]

2 hours ago, Extroah said:

^ This guy/girl gets it. I've never player Sorties before, now i do. Imho most people that complain and think it's the death of Warframe are just salty that they didnt get +10000% Damage on Tonkor/Simulor/Dread.

Yeah most threads are "I don't have a Riven yet".  Though honestly, i really wish they evolved Sorties more than just 3 easy random missions. It still feels like  "Ugh, got to do sorties because it's there and see if theres anyone for raids. Done doing my chores, time to log off now".

[PanicPrime]

38 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Because its been out less than two weeks and its totally set in stone and will never ever ever change.  Right?  Based on your massive dump insult though I feel you want to quit anyway and are just looking for an excuse?

Nothing is set in stone, and that's why it's important to be vocal about exactly how we feel in order to ensure some change is made. If everyone just claps and cheers DE for this fantastic new system then why change it at all? The community clearly loves it!

It's an insult because I've ran 8 sorties in a row and received nothing but 2k endo. My time is more valuable than this. That isn't an oversight, and it isn't a bug. It's working exactly as intended. Even if they stated they plan on changing it, they haven't yet, and the change may be just as frustrating. Would they have bothered to even announce a change is coming if nobody complained about getting 2k endo over and over? At least give us the option to buy rivens from the marketplace like they did with lenses, but instead we'll be used as guinea pigs for a broken system that hasn't even been through QA before it's dropped on us.

As for me wanting to quit, you're right. I no longer feel any real desire to log into this game, and certainly won't be giving them any more money until this issue is resolved.
However I don't need to find an excuse to quit, the notion that I was just waiting for TWW so I can use it as a reason to stop playing is preposterous. If I want to leave then I leave, I have other things I can play to relax. I'd just rather not outright leave because, even now, I have some faith in DE that they might actually get this right in the end. My patience will only last so long though and if no reasonable progress is made in a direction that I want it to go in then yes, I'll pack up shop and go elsewhere.

This update has sapped my motivation and made me feel disrespected. I don't expect a public apology. I don't want DE to hand me a special trophy. I don't think anyone else is going to read my posts and think "oh no, ChasePanic is unhappy we need to do something right now!"

I'm not deluded enough to think that you, DE, or anyone else should particularly care about my feelings. But if enough of us share the same sentiment and echo the same message in response, DE are going to notice.

 

[Patzer]

Well, here is something to think about for those who think rivens now can fix bad weapons.

Lets take Burston Prime with 5% base crit. You would need riven with +500% critical change to achieve Soma Primes BASE crit change or +1400% to get where Soma P. goes with Point Strike.

Basically crappy weapons with low IPS, crit, critd and status are not going to get fixed in any shape or form with current iteration of riven mods. For some non-meta weapons they work but I think were are not quite there yet what DE had in mind.