Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

I main Ash and I hate the current state they have put him in. If I compare him to my avalanche Frost, my 2x arcane grace inaros with puppy, my invis/disarm Loki on zenurik and my embers WoF with arcane energise, I just fail to see how this hard nerf was that justified.

Main complaints on old BS: Stuck in cutscene by players and not able to damage BS targets by team mates. End result: Both unresolved.....

[Aktriaz]

On 2016-12-13 at 6:07 AM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I can still kill heavy eximus units up to level 140 with just his powers (tested multiple times in the Simulcrum), so I'm not sure exactly what level you're using as the effective baseline for 'being able to kill'.

His contribution to the team is that he is the assassin. And in high end content when everyone else's damage drops off he can still take out the most durable priority targets. Finisher damage bypasses all armor and shields so he always does direct damage to health (which is amazing if you pair with a Saryn, or have a good viral proc weapon). His job is to take out priority targets that others have trouble with, helping his team in the process (i know that part is kinda a stretch lol). Honestly, his skills are wasted if used on anything under level 30-40 if you have a half decent build. His damage scales better than anyone in the game which is important when you realize most other damage frames have to resort to being crowd control frames in anything over level 50.

By the way, I actually saved my teammate with Smokescreen in the Sortie survival just last night. He got surrounded and stun-locked so I used Smokescreen to stagger the enemies and he got away to heal while I killed the targets.

I think you may have benefited from it more than you realize, but since you didn't see it you didn't realize it. But, I also admit you probably get stuck with a lot of terrible Ash players that don't know how to use their powers. Those kind of people only gravitated to him for press4towin and didn't bother finding out what his other powers were capable of which is why they are so butthurt about the Bladestorm rework.

You miss my point. Yes Ash is good at killing things. Of the warframes that "are good at killing things" he is among the top. His issue isn't that he can't kill things; it's that all he's good at is killing things; and when placed next to his competitors (Excalibur, Chroma, Inaros, Banshee, etc) he may meet or beat them in the damage department but fails everywhere else. He has no team buffs or enemy debuffs, virtually no CC, not exceptionally tanky, and his Invisibility is garbage.

So yes, while you can have an Ash that can effectively kill enemies at level 140, so can other warframes. Banshee can cast Savage Silence, giving herself and allies finishers at x3 BASE (which is 50% more than Ash's augment) and also being capable of buffing guns' damage and CC foes. Inaros can prompt groups of foes for finishers while perma-CCing everything around him all while remaining borderline immortal. Excalibur can spam radial blind for CC and finishers (at x3 over Ash's x2, once again) and/or cleave through groups of enemies with EB.

Yes, Ash is good at killing things, but when you place him next to his competitors, they all have more to give to a team while being barely worse (or with no noticeable difference) at killing than he is.

Ash should be able to do more things than "kill stuff good". He deserves more than that. That's all I'm trying to say.

[RobRalneR]

Hello Warframe community!

Here is my take on Ash's reworked Bladestorm. I know some people don't like huge walls of text, so I decided to make a step by step breakdown about it:

1) [Press "4"]

Go into marking mode.

2) [Aim]

Aim targets you want dead. The triple mark is switched to single. You'll see why if you read more.

3) [Press "4" again to attack]

You teleport to your target.

 

Now here it gets interesting.

4) [Press "LMB" to stab the marked enemy (1st stab is automatic) or press "RMB" to switch to next marked target. Bladestorm will end if all marked targets are dead or press "4" to exit Bladestorm mode at any time]

Basically, when you activate bladestorm, you teleport to your marked target, you stab him once automatically and you're given a choice: either continue stabbing the target or switch to the next marked one. During that mode if you decide to end Bladestorm to run away or something like that, just press the 4th ability to exit out of Bladestorm at any given time.

5) [No action required, follow up to the 4th step]

If you teleport to your marked target with a group of enemies around him, they get stabbed by Ash's clones for the maximum of 3 times per target (that is if you stabbed the target atleast 3 times). After that the clones disappear, but can appear again if you switch to the next marked one. For exampe: within 12m radius of your marked target, any enemy within that radius (marked and unmarked) gets stabbed by Ash's clones. As soon as you kill your target or decide to switch, your clones are refreshed and are ready to stab more enemies. Maximum amount of clones you can have is 4 for balance purposes.

6) [If all targets are dead, switch after the last one or press "4" to exit Bladestorm]

After Bladestorm, you teleport back to the same location you initiated it.

Here's another breakdown - Bladestorm's energy costs (divided in steps to easily identify which action consumes energy and which don't):

1) - no cost.

2) - each mark = 15 energy (10, if cloaked) 

3) - no cost.

4) - each stab = 5 energy

5) - clone stab = 4.5 energy x 4 clones x 3 times = 54 energy (54 + 15 = 69 energy). If you and your clones successfully killed an enemy by stabbing it, you get 50% energy refunded from each stab. Even better, if you killed a marked target, you get 50% energy refunded from marking it.

Your stabs: 1 stab = 2.5 energy refunded. 3 stabs = 7.5 energy refunded. And it will go on till you killed an enemy, but if you didn't successfully killed an enemy and you ran out of energy, then no energy is refunded.

Clone stabs: 1 stab = 2.25 energy refunded. 3 stabs = 6.75 energy refunded. 6.75 energy x 4 clones = 27 energy refunded.

After your clones are done, each time you stab the marked target it only costs 5 energy (69+5+5+5... etc).

6) - no cost

 

Shoutout to WastedAlmond (for target switching) and Th3Num13erZ3R0 (circle of death by ash's clones) for ideas.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Rob12772
Added another energy refund bonus.

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

9 hours ago, Actriaz said:

You miss my point. Yes Ash is good at killing things. Of the warframes that "are good at killing things" he is among the top. His issue isn't that he can't kill things; it's that all he's good at is killing things; and when placed next to his competitors (Excalibur, Chroma, Inaros, Banshee, etc) he may meet or beat them in the damage department but fails everywhere else. He has no team buffs or enemy debuffs, virtually no CC, not exceptionally tanky, and his Invisibility is garbage.

So yes, while you can have an Ash that can effectively kill enemies at level 140, so can other warframes. Banshee can cast Savage Silence, giving herself and allies finishers at x3 BASE (which is 50% more than Ash's augment) and also being capable of buffing guns' damage and CC foes. Inaros can prompt groups of foes for finishers while perma-CCing everything around him all while remaining borderline immortal. Excalibur can spam radial blind for CC and finishers (at x3 over Ash's x2, once again) and/or cleave through groups of enemies with EB.

Yes, Ash is good at killing things, but when you place him next to his competitors, they all have more to give to a team while being barely worse (or with no noticeable difference) at killing than he is.

Ash should be able to do more things than "kill stuff good". He deserves more than that. That's all I'm trying to say.

I agree with you that Ash should be able to do more then 'kill stuff good' I slightly disagree that he is effective at killing bombards at lvl 140 with the new BS. Fatal teleport fixes that but I would hardly call that efficient.

Why not reduce the markings to 1 per target, increase the damage and add a CC in form of a stun to anything that survives for 10secs increased by power duration? Less cutscenes, less marking, less time BS targets can't be damaged by team mates and more time to clear up stunned hard targets using Fatal Teleport and more CC.

[Fallosssss]

How about this?

1st ability - same as now but + punch through

2nd ability - Invisibility + x-ray vision through walls. In this ability you see all in grayscale, enemy is red and the ally is green. You can kill the enemy only by finisher attack (with finisher animation) and you can teleport through wall only to ally.
This make Ash more different than Loki with 2nd ability

3th ability - same as now

4th ability - your ultimate works only with enemy who been damaged by you or ally or when you under 2nd anility (than you can use your ult on any enemy). This gives to Ash more similar with assasin role like other games and require more teamwork to be more effective.

Please no need any marking or scanning to kill enemy.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Fallosssss

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

26 minutes ago, Fallosssss said:

How about this?

1st ability - same as now but + punch through

2nd ability - Invisibility + x-ray vision through walls. In this ability you see all in grayscale, enemy is red and the ally is green. You can kill the enemy only by finisher attack (with finisher animation) and you can teleport through wall only to ally.
This make Ash more different than Loki with 2nd ability

3th ability - same as now

4th ability - your ultimate works only with enemy who been damaged by you or ally. This gives to Ash more similar with assasin role like other games and require more teamwork to be more effective.

Please no need any marking or scanning to kill enemy.

But it doesn't give him any CC. And with his current lack for a fast aoe high damage skill, he is in a bad place. Fatal Teleport often beats out the new BS both in energy consumption and damage. Shuriken with the augment looks good but is easily beaten by Frost avalanche which strips the amor off of half the tile in 1 cast without augment. Punch through will add some extra damage and bleed proccs but does nothing to create synergy between his abilities.

If shuriken would be able to seek out multiple targets per cast (LoS), have slightly increased dmg while invisible and have any targets hit marked for blade storm then thats some synergy. He still needs proper CC tbh.

[AKKILLA]

19 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Teleport on objects causes lots of issues and serves no purpose right now. Instead I suggest making teleport a tap/hold ability. tap for regular teleport-to-unit goodness and hold function to teleport to the location Ash is aiming. That would eliminate the problem of players getting stuck inside ramparts, blunts, etc etc.

 

I like the teleport (HOLD) concept, what you think about @xLordKogax Shuriken Teleport?

You cast Shuriken, an the enemy hit and still under Shurikens Slash Procs will leave a Similar Blade Storm Mark icon on that unit (3 Max Marks) allowing You to cast Teleport and track down targets (Imagine with FT augxD) this serves as a nice synergy between abilities similar to Blazing Chakram but more focused on the actual Slash Marks. 

Another idea I came up with mysekf was a combination of Koga's Smoke Screen AoE cloud idea combined with the new Teleporting to things with a health bar is Teleporting to Smoke Clouds. The AoE of the Cloud can appear on Map and when aiming at it you will see a health thats actually its duration. A unique concept indeed to teleport to these AoE clouds to Insta kill a horde in rapid succession. A good balance concept I thought about is allowing enemy fire to deplete this clouds duration by (X%) ill leave the Math to the Devs but this fire can also Kill there own Allies. 

Idk why DE and the community themself ignore this good idea fir Smoke Screen. It provides Ash with Team Utility, Synergy, Crowd Control, and a Great Finisher Window for everyone to set off Trickery! Just dont remove his invisibility and duration, in or out of the AoE! That will ruin Ash, he already has the shortest duration out of all stealth Warframes, his durations actually great modded correctly and combined with Arcane Trickery it provides a nice mechanic that allows chaining and freshing invisibility through Smoke Screen+Arcane Trickery (20sec's+22sec'sMax), ultimately surpassing any Loki Prime Max Duration build (33sec'sMax)

I want to also continue touching base on Blade Storm overhaul as a Stance. I know its a tough touchy subject but im soo passionate about it as Koga when he explained in full detail I even gave ideas back. (Thats Reak Feedback) Combining ideas is great and helps the game progress with positive feedback and positive energy but we live in a Hostile world these days. I still feel we should all show love and respect to each other in this community as we all share a common interest, Warframe! This game is Marvelous! I love it, not just Ash, even my most hated Frame I love playing it cuz I know its still fun and has great potential! (LIMBO) xD

Well I blabber too much lol Im sure we can all visualize these concepts and make them happen one day ;) 

[Nazrethim]

42 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

I like the teleport (HOLD) concept, what you think about @xLordKogax Shuriken Teleport?

You cast Shuriken, an the enemy hit and still under Shurikens Slash Procs will leave a Similar Blade Storm Mark icon on that unit (3 Max Marks) allowing You to cast Teleport and track down targets (Imagine with FT augxD) this serves as a nice synergy between abilities similar to Blazing Chakram but more focused on the actual Slash Marks. 

Another idea I came up with mysekf was a combination of Koga's Smoke Screen AoE cloud idea combined with the new Teleporting to things with a health bar is Teleporting to Smoke Clouds. The AoE of the Cloud can appear on Map and when aiming at it you will see a health thats actually its duration. A unique concept indeed to teleport to these AoE clouds to Insta kill a horde in rapid succession. A good balance concept I thought about is allowing enemy fire to deplete this clouds duration by (X%) ill leave the Math to the Devs but this fire can also Kill there own Allies. 

Idk why DE and the community themself ignore this good idea fir Smoke Screen. It provides Ash with Team Utility, Synergy, Crowd Control, and a Great Finisher Window for everyone to set off Trickery! Just dont remove his invisibility and duration, in or out of the AoE! That will ruin Ash, he already has the shortest duration out of all stealth Warframes, his durations actually great modded correctly and combined with Arcane Trickery it provides a nice mechanic that allows chaining and freshing invisibility through Smoke Screen+Arcane Trickery (20sec's+22sec'sMax), ultimately surpassing any Loki Prime Max Duration build (33sec'sMax)

I want to also continue touching base on Blade Storm overhaul as a Stance. I know its a tough touchy subject but im soo passionate about it as Koga when he explained in full detail I even gave ideas back. (Thats Reak Feedback) Combining ideas is great and helps the game progress with positive feedback and positive energy but we live in a Hostile world these days. I still feel we should all show love and respect to each other in this community as we all share a common interest, Warframe! This game is Marvelous! I love it, not just Ash, even my most hated Frame I love playing it cuz I know its still fun and has great potential! (LIMBO) xD

Well I blabber too much lol Im sure we can all visualize these concepts and make them happen one day ;) 

A stance bladestorm and aim-to-cast smoke screen? We think alike, I made this months ago:

Spoiler

 

Though that's old, I have some new ideas in mind.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Nazrethim

[Exaedr]

Honestly I don't think DE will read through this at all because they might just consider this to be rants but after the rework I find myself using BS even less, never really used it because I thought it was OP. But if they do rework it, I hope they go along the lines of a more advanced version of teleport where the radius of the BS is set to be small but damage and the distance to teleport to is scaled by mods. It acts like a smaller version of the old BS where activating at a target kills a small radius of enemies cutscene is kept for the targeted enemy while the enemies around is hit by the clones. Amount of energy drain is calculated by number of enemies hit. Was thinking around 10 energy per enemy hit so casting at a group of 10 is 100 but 5 energy per enemy while invisible or while bleeding thru weapons or shrunken. Criticism or tweaking is also encouraged but imo the idea of the advanced version of teleport for BS including the bleed and invisible  to lower the cost would allow better synergy for the kit.

[(PSN)s3kShUn08]

So, Ive had ash as my main for the last 4 years.
Overall I still love the frame even after the rework despite the huge nerf.
Current meta for Ash now is:

(Power efficiency, duration and strength are the focus)
1) Smoke
2) Run into crowd
3) Activate Ultimate
4) Spin camera at max mouse/controller sensitivity
5) Reactivate Ultimate

Original Bladestorm meta was:

(Again efficiency, and strength, but substitue duration for range)
1) Find groups of enemies
2) Hit 4
3) Repeat

While the old system definitely was far too simple, this new mechanic is unnecessarily complicated, having too many points of operation just to execute the ability.
The real problem is cost of energy per enemy vs damage. Also Ash still has the risk of once his ult is finished there is a 1 second delay before the camera is reset and player is mobile again. This leads to mobs, especially high level mobs opportunity to just rip into ash. Not only that, but BS enemies won't be completely dead until the slash proc finishes them off.

My thoughts on the ultimate has been the same since I first started playing ash vs the other frames. It's is nothing new, which I'm fairly certain more than one individual has had the same idea in this thread, is to make the ult an AoE type attack.

What I mean by AoE. Well there are 2 ways I have envisioned this power, the first is simple. Transformation, similar to Valkyr in execution and visuals, and both Valkyr and Ember in Function. Ash turns into his invisible state also his arm blades release, a ground AoE effect visually similar to embers WoF only with Ash's signature smoke. Ash gains Invulnerability (nothing new here since he has always gained this during his ult and even during his teleport animation) AoE effect radius is small in size, only a few meters, but any enemies inside radius are auto targeted for finisher attacks 1 enemy is killed via player finisher attack, all others are clones/holograms (lets just call them Shadows for now). This transformation would also use equipped melee weapon stats like Valkyr. This allows for several issues to be fixed.

1) No longer a non participle ability, requiring the player to move to his targets but also single out targets of importance more easily.
2) No camera delay reset after ability is finished meaning that mobs don't get the chance to deal damage to a stationary target
3) Adds synergy to other abilities and augments, i.e. Ultimate + Teleport + Fatal Teleport = 1 Auto kill finisher plus all enemies inside AoE around target killed with Shadows
4) Reduces time needed to cast a single ability
5) Simplifies the order of operation for a single ability
6) Simplifies the mechanics of the ability
7) Simplifies the calculation of energy consumption
8) Teammates no longer unable to damage a multitude of locked targets
9) No need for cinematic camera (upon transformation any finisher attack executed uses 1 of ~5 random finisher animations unique to ash)


New meta using this version of Bladestorm would be:

(Strength, Duration, Efficiency, Range all would benefit depending on play style)
1) Activate Ult
2) Target groups of enemies (allowing for prioritization of tougher enemies)
3) Execute finisher
4) Repeat steps 2-3 as necessary or able

This is my ideal version of this power, balancing both the aesthetic and practicality of it.

My second version of this is basically using Novas Ult of a growing AoE only instead of the point of origin being from player it would be from a thrown shuriken/kunai. The point of impact becoming the epicenter for a growing AoE Smoke cloud. Upon impact any enemies in AoE smoke are auto targeted, Ash teleports to point of impact and begins old style of bladestorm attack. This was the original concept I had. After thinking on it more and more mixing this with my first idea is also a viable option. Where the Ultimate is a transformation, but the shuriken ability usage determines targets. The reason I decided not to opt for this option as much is because shuriken isn't exactly accurate. Plus it is susceptible to being blocked by surrounding objects, or hitting an unintended target. I had also considered the idea of the AoE cloud being stationary with a larger radius acting as an area denial form of ultimate by auto killing via teleport finisher any enemies that entered the cloud.

Hopefully this gets some support for my first iteration of this power.
Let me know what you guys think.

[Absolonium]

I have played Ash.. It's not the same anymore with the new rework. Good? Bad? I think it's kind of good. Although mechanically, it will take too long to activate the ability, overall, I strongly think this change is awesome for the health of the game and the frame.

Change is nice. Energy per enemy kill is very understandable. That is how you are supposed to cast bladestorm. Each enemy kill would have to correspond to a hit on your energy pool. I think it's great! If I want to kill 25+ enemies, but I exhaust my meager 150 (425-ish with P Flow) then that is my choice to make. It's completely fair. No complaints from me. Now there is only one issue with this rework which I find is very annoying.

THE ANIMATION TAKES TOO FREAKING LONG

Remember freshly released Ash? Yeah? When Ash was the only one doing the BS'ing? By the time I was finished with bladestorm, I have already:
-ate breakfast
-took out the trash
-had morning exercise
-finished all Song of Fire and Ice books
-watched my favorite youtubers
-went to work
-solved world hunger
-grew old

It just takes too damn long!

Here an idea to diversify Ash builds. (focusing on Single target priority/multi target clearing with Blade Storm)

Remember Rising Storm Augment? Instead of the useless Combo Counter (because with Body Count who even needs that?), why not make it so Ash spawn CLONES for every target of bladestorm, on the condition that Bladestorm would only be allowed to mark once? This will make animations shorter and it makes the Augment an actual choice on builds. Want a trash mob clearing Ash? Pick up Rising Storm. Want your Ash to prioritize those Eximus/Heavies/Ancients? Don't pick up Rising Storm. It would create a diversity on Ash and Ash players.

Plus I think it would make the name "Rising Storm" more fitting.

A storm of blades swept on the battlefield. One moment there was wailing. The next moment came silence.

[(XBOX)Cephalon 7]

Feedback! - I hate what yall did to ASH - so much I deleted both regular one and the prime. Warframe is crap now!

Why do yall always nerf stuff to where it sucks? I mean really! Who comes up with these ideas? If you want to rework bladestorm

then make it (FIELD OF VIEW RANGED) its the simplest thing with some of these warframes yall have nerfed. Instead of ruining them.

God yall make me so mad sometimes I just wish my xbox would blow up so I can stop playing this damn game.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Cephalon 7 said:

Feedback! - I hate what yall did to ASH - so much I deleted both regular one and the prime. Warframe is crap now!

Why do yall always nerf stuff to where it sucks? I mean really! Who comes up with these ideas? If you want to rework bladestorm

then make it (FIELD OF VIEW RANGED) its the simplest thing with some of these warframes yall have nerfed. Instead of ruining them.

God yall make me so mad sometimes I just wish my xbox would blow up so I can stop playing this damn game.

Bad move. You should've tried a new build instead. True, you can't spam bladestorm anymore but he is still a VERY strong stealth melee frame with a passive that ups slash status.

 

Everything that actually died from bladestorm is easily killable with a melee weapon, what's not so hard when you actually use teleport every now and then. Everything that did not die DEFINITLY dies from bladestorm now as dropping overextendet alone wins you 60% power strength. Not to mention that keeping the multiplier active with melee weapons is much easier then it is with unargumented OR argumented bladestorm.

 

I kept mine, replaced all duration and range mods with strength and power management and he does about 500% more damage now on the few enemys i actually NEED TO BLADESTORM on a much better power level. 

 

Are better results worse because they require input?..... wasn't this, this never ending bladestorm animation, the sole reason for the rework? The solution is quite decent if you ask me.

Edited December 30, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[StonedMakak]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Are better results worse because they require input?..... wasn't this, this never ending bladestorm animation, the sole reason for the rework? The solution is quite decent if you ask me.

But the never ending Bladestorm animation is still there. There is just one extra step before it.

I actually timed it a few times in mission. On average, it takes about 10-15 seconds for large groups, i.e. groups big enough to warrant the use of BS, instead of just shooting/melee. If someone thinks that's not a lot, I urge them to consider how annoyed they are when waiting 5 seconds to skip a YT ad. And that's every time when the Ult is used. Yeah.

I could use BS on smaller groups to keep it short, but then what's the point? I'm a decent shot, and slicing a bunch of mobs with slide attack is not difficult. Not to mention that at this point Teleport starts to overlap as well: it's only good for eliminating priority targets, the mobility offered is rather useless, unless when playing catch up, or rushing extraction in Capture/Rescue. 

Look at Nidus - every single ability in his kit has purpose and scaling. Or better yet, Ivara - one of the best designed frames in game, with powers for utility, damage, CC and just plain fun and flavour. There is a sharp design focus in both, that Ash sorely lacks.

Ash is a collection of outdated design concepts, with toolbox full of redundancy. The ability to deal finisher damage is his saving grace, and the only reason he is still relevant.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

58 minutes ago, tisdfogg said:

But the never ending Bladestorm animation is still there. There is just one extra step before it.

I actually timed it a few times in mission. On average, it takes about 10-15 seconds for large groups, i.e. groups big enough to warrant the use of BS, instead of just shooting/melee. If someone thinks that's not a lot, I urge them to consider how annoyed they are when waiting 5 seconds to skip a YT ad. And that's every time when the Ult is used. Yeah.

I could use BS on smaller groups to keep it short, but then what's the point? I'm a decent shot, and slicing a bunch of mobs with slide attack is not difficult. Not to mention that at this point Teleport starts to overlap as well: it's only good for eliminating priority targets, the mobility offered is rather useless, unless when playing catch up, or rushing extraction in Capture/Rescue. 

Look at Nidus - every single ability in his kit has purpose and scaling. Or better yet, Ivara - one of the best designed frames in game, with powers for utility, damage, CC and just plain fun and flavour. There is a sharp design focus in both, that Ash sorely lacks.

Ash is a collection of outdated design concepts, with toolbox full of redundancy. The ability to deal finisher damage is his saving grace, and the only reason he is still relevant.

15 seconds every now and then vs 20 minutes straight bladestorming every enemy? Yea, sure, whatever serves your agenda.

 

Activate teleport to actually use your melee weapon once you've reached a group and it may be more usefull as well. Cause, ya know, stealth frame, stealth multipliers, smokebomb which resets those stealth multipliers...

Calling him outdated is also a quite strange viewpoint...did finisher damage get any less effective over time? Slash dots maybe? Reseting stealth finishers also found its use after they were limited to the first strike, rather then offering a permanent 4x bonus, what stealth started out as.

 

What exactly is outdated about him? The animation you grew tired of and thus declared it outdated? You should meditate over the meaning of those words young shinobi.

Edited December 31, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[AKKILLA]

On 12/29/2016 at 2:03 PM, Nazrethim said:

A stance bladestorm and aim-to-cast smoke screen? We think alike, I made this months ago:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Though that's old, I have some new ideas in mind.

Lol you do know I been seen, liked and followed this thread right? 

Yea great minds do think alike. Your ideas come very close to what @xLordKogax @(PS4)GR13V4NC3 @Dragonblack175 @Zounderth and a few others I may forgot to mention. Not just the BS stance concept but the shuriken, smoke screen and teleport ideas are all important to improving and fitting in with everything else perfectly. I honestly think this vers of BS should have a percent chance to drop more energy since ashs energy pool is low. Just a balance idea since im sure someone will mention ash will run out of energy in this mode. Which I agree may be the case. 

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

4 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

Lol you do know I been seen, liked and followed this thread right? 

Yea great minds do think alike. Your ideas come very close to what @xLordKogax @(PS4)GR13V4NC3 @Dragonblack175 @Zounderth and a few others I may forgot to mention. Not just the BS stance concept but the shuriken, smoke screen and teleport ideas are all important to improving and fitting in with everything else perfectly. I honestly think this vers of BS should have a percent chance to drop more energy since ashs energy pool is low. Just a balance idea since im sure someone will mention ash will run out of energy in this mode. Which I agree may be the case. 

Funny note that these were the most valued new BS ideas by the Warframe community and as a reward for all their effort outlining and detailing a very nice set of concepts, they and the community got this cheap targeting mechanic in return.

People do realise that the ability is exactly the same as before minus that mechanic right?

A DEV team that claims to listen to its community, ends up doing nothing or at best very little with all that valuable input and then refrains from responding to 85 pages of thread.

Imo DE is losing credibility for every hour this remains unattended.

[Nazrethim]

7 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

Lol you do know I been seen, liked and followed this thread right?

I was always bad with names, it took me about 4 months to learn the names of my classmates I actually talked to :P

7 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

Lol you do know I been seen, liked and followed this thread right?  I honestly think this vers of BS should have a percent chance to drop more energy since ashs energy pool is low. Just a balance idea since im sure someone will mention ash will run out of energy in this mode. Which I agree may be the case. 

Or get 2/3rds of the energy refunded if Ash kills the target personally.

The new idea I have in mind is also a Stance ultimate. A Toggle free of energy cost stance ultimate that let you use the wristblades and bladestorm animations on finishers. The gimmick is that the power isn't the weapon itself. While in this bladestorm stance Ash marks targets like he does now, while in this mode Teleport and Shuriken cost 10 energy  per marked target and when cast Teleport would do current Blade Storm while Shuriken would make Ash throw one at each marked target with damage multiplier depending on charges.

btw, according to wiki BS marking mode is supposed to make Ash see in monochromatic, but I can't seem to find the option that does that, any idea?

[StonedMakak]

8 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

15 seconds every now and then vs 20 minutes straight bladestorming every enemy? Yea, sure, whatever serves your agenda.

 

Activate teleport to actually use your melee weapon once you've reached a group and it may be more usefull as well. Cause, ya know, stealth frame, stealth multipliers, smokebomb which resets those stealth multipliers...

Calling him outdated is also a quite strange viewpoint...did finisher damage get any less effective over time? Slash dots maybe? Reseting stealth finishers also found its use after they were limited to the first strike, rather then offering a permanent 4x bonus, what stealth started out as.

 

What exactly is outdated about him? The animation you grew tired of and thus declared it outdated? You should meditate over the meaning of those words young shinobi.

I've never used BS for 20 minutes straight on every enemy. I always used it sparingly, specifically to avoid the cutscene, so now, I don't have a positive impression of it being less frequent. It's still the same for me, i.e. too long. Which ties into my point about him being outdated.

Notice how I said that "outdated design concepts", what you speak of is functionality. Yes, Ash functions well because he deals a lot of unavoidable damage, and that's it. There is nothing more to him. Allow me to elaborate on that.

#1 - Straight damage and DoT. Falls off extremely quickly, no scaling whatsoever. Useless? No, it has some situational use with the augment. Outdated design? Yes, most definitely. Generic? Hell yes - what else for a space ninja other than a space shuriken? 

#2 - Straight up invisibility. Due to AI not being able to handle silent and invisible enemies, invisibility is rather OP in general, but with Ivara they at least tried to give it drawbacks to balance it (reduced mobility, breaks upon firing a non-silent gun) along with nice flavour of pickpocket, and headshot damage buff for rewarding skill. What Ash gets is a nerfed version of Loki's ability. And yet, most versatile and useful tool he has access to IMHO. Still painfully generic though, and outdated, nothing more than bare minimum from it, nothing more to distinguish it from other skills of the same type. Ninja disappears in a puff of smoke! I mean, really.

#3 - Teleport to enemy/object. Yet another skill that is made somewhat useful with it's augment/CL for OHK, and prime example of outdated design. Apart from that it fails as a mobility tool because it's not free-aim and bullet jumping exists. Sure, you can teleport from group to group and look cool while doing so, but it's not like other melee frames will be far behind. The ability was conceived in early days of Warframe when it was far more useful due to limited mobility... and coptering outclassed it anyway. And you can't rely on it for map traversal either - by the time you you found something to target, Nova has already teleported halfway across the map. Meh all over.

#4 - AoE damage and, let's call it what it is, one of the most blatant omnislash rip-offs out there. Again, something deigned for a game that Warframe used to be - where energy was most scarce and ultimates felt more like powerful moves that you save for the right situation, and it worked well back then. But that game is long gone and Bladestrom was not adjusted correctly. The crazy pace and ability spam simply doesn't not jive well with a skill that takes control away every couple of minutes. The idea of prioritizing and marking targets is also cute, since Warframe is not the type of game where this matters terribly. And yes, the cutscene itself is also outdated - glitching, out of sync, clipping, lack of variety, badly framed etc. It has not been visually touched up since the custom animations were added (3 years?).

There you have it. The frame functions well because it provides two powerful effects: invisibility and finisher damage. Does not change the fact that mechanically and design-wise, it's lacking. Especially in comparison to other frames.

 

 

[SemperSupra]

I know, how about we get the old bladestorm back, and then DE can nerf some other frame?? Yeah!!!

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

12 hours ago, tisdfogg said:

I've never used BS for 20 minutes straight on every enemy. I always used it sparingly, specifically to avoid the cutscene, so now, I don't have a positive impression of it being less frequent. It's still the same for me, i.e. too long. Which ties into my point about him being outdated.

Notice how I said that "outdated design concepts", what you speak of is functionality. Yes, Ash functions well because he deals a lot of unavoidable damage, and that's it. There is nothing more to him. Allow me to elaborate on that.

#1 - Straight damage and DoT. Falls off extremely quickly, no scaling whatsoever. Useless? No, it has some situational use with the augment. Outdated design? Yes, most definitely. Generic? Hell yes - what else for a space ninja other than a space shuriken? 

#2 - Straight up invisibility. Due to AI not being able to handle silent and invisible enemies, invisibility is rather OP in general, but with Ivara they at least tried to give it drawbacks to balance it (reduced mobility, breaks upon firing a non-silent gun) along with nice flavour of pickpocket, and headshot damage buff for rewarding skill. What Ash gets is a nerfed version of Loki's ability. And yet, most versatile and useful tool he has access to IMHO. Still painfully generic though, and outdated, nothing more than bare minimum from it, nothing more to distinguish it from other skills of the same type. Ninja disappears in a puff of smoke! I mean, really.

#3 - Teleport to enemy/object. Yet another skill that is made somewhat useful with it's augment/CL for OHK, and prime example of outdated design. Apart from that it fails as a mobility tool because it's not free-aim and bullet jumping exists. Sure, you can teleport from group to group and look cool while doing so, but it's not like other melee frames will be far behind. The ability was conceived in early days of Warframe when it was far more useful due to limited mobility... and coptering outclassed it anyway. And you can't rely on it for map traversal either - by the time you you found something to target, Nova has already teleported halfway across the map. Meh all over.

#4 - AoE damage and, let's call it what it is, one of the most blatant omnislash rip-offs out there. Again, something deigned for a game that Warframe used to be - where energy was most scarce and ultimates felt more like powerful moves that you save for the right situation, and it worked well back then. But that game is long gone and Bladestrom was not adjusted correctly. The crazy pace and ability spam simply doesn't not jive well with a skill that takes control away every couple of minutes. The idea of prioritizing and marking targets is also cute, since Warframe is not the type of game where this matters terribly. And yes, the cutscene itself is also outdated - glitching, out of sync, clipping, lack of variety, badly framed etc. It has not been visually touched up since the custom animations were added (3 years?).

There you have it. The frame functions well because it provides two powerful effects: invisibility and finisher damage. Does not change the fact that mechanically and design-wise, it's lacking. Especially in comparison to other frames.

 

 

Ay, did you notice then that bladestorm STUNS every marked enemy now for the full duration of bladestorm? Made use of that mechanic in recent interceptions.

I beg to argue that he does NOTHING but damage, but then again, dead enemys can't act, can they?

[Multicom-EN-]

85 pages and not a single word from DE.

Edit: 86

Edited January 1, 2017 by Multicom-EN-

[StonedMakak]

18 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Ay, did you notice then that bladestorm STUNS every marked enemy now for the full duration of bladestorm? Made use of that mechanic in recent interceptions.

I beg to argue that he does NOTHING but damage, but then again, dead enemys can't act, can they?

Nope, did not know that. Haven't notice it on rare occasions when I use BS, and haven't seen enough Ashes after the rework to look for it. You sure it's not the stun that always been there, i.e. mob is stunned during the attack and lag makes that appear as if he was stunned for longer than that? Also you may see an enemy that appears to be stunned, waiting for his turn to be attacked, but the animation is so glitchy that he actually is being stabbed this very moment - it's just that Ash/Clone is clipping through a wall and you can't see him.

Annnnnd you're still praising functionality, while I criticize the design. Those are not the same things. I actually agree with you, his functionality is just fine. But his design is not.

Edited January 1, 2017 by tisdfogg

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

On 12/31/2016 at 0:12 AM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Bad move. You should've tried a new build instead. True, you can't spam bladestorm anymore but he is still a VERY strong stealth melee frame with a passive that ups slash status.

 

Everything that actually died from bladestorm is easily killable with a melee weapon, what's not so hard when you actually use teleport every now and then. Everything that did not die DEFINITLY dies from bladestorm now as dropping overextendet alone wins you 60% power strength. Not to mention that keeping the multiplier active with melee weapons is much easier then it is with unargumented OR argumented bladestorm.

 

I kept mine, replaced all duration and range mods with strength and power management and he does about 500% more damage now on the few enemys i actually NEED TO BLADESTORM on a much better power level. 

 

Are better results worse because they require input?..... wasn't this, this never ending bladestorm animation, the sole reason for the rework? The solution is quite decent if you ask me.

With all due respect but BS certainly does NOT do more damage as before. 

Not everyone used overextended on their Ash build so no, you don't win 60% power strength by default.

Replacing all your duration and range mods gimps both Smoke Screen and Teleport greatly. If anything Ash now must have duration and at the very least stretch. This had me drop energy conversion and intensify both in order to keep transient and still facilitate sufficient range, efficiency and duration.

If you use BS on so very few enemies that you really NEED TO BLADESTORM, I put it to you dear sir that you ought to try a fatal teleport with a CL dagger instead of the 'new' BS

His 3 is now so much better than his 4 especially on high lvl content with CL. And still you will never FT fast enough to be of any significance on the group damage chart to be needed.

Edited January 1, 2017 by (PS4)vrykolacas82

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

27 minutes ago, tisdfogg said:

Nope, did not know that. Haven't notice it on rare occasions when I use BS, and haven't seen enough Ashes after the rework to look for it. You sure it's not the stun that always been there, i.e. mob is stunned during the attack and lag makes that appear as if he was stunned for longer than that? Also you may see an enemy that appears to be stunned, waiting for his turn to be attacked, but the animation is so glitchy that he actually is being stabbed this very moment - it's just that Ash/Clone is clipping through a wall and you can't see him.

Annnnnd you're still praising functionality, while I criticize the design. Those are not the same things. I actually agree with you, his functionality is just fine. But his design is not.

Design is matter to oppinion so you can't rly pin them down on that 😒

And yep, that's definitly new. I often used to run lazy mans build in his pre-reworked state, typical draco and never, at no point could i interrupt enemys hacking consoles...outside from killing them faster then they could hack that is.

 

Works now.