DE, No More Frame Reworks Please. Just Stop

[Misgenesis]

The sooner people drop the notion that powers should be minimal effort and maximum output, the better time we are going to have. And a better game.

I cannot comprehend that such minimal changes bring up so much tears. 

[tnccs215]

26 minutes ago, VergilDT said:

I said from the day the Ash devstream came out that their rework would kill the character. 2 Mods, DE Support, and Community managers all claimed I was doomsaying. Now you can all eat your @(*()$ words.

Actually, you were and are doomsaying. Just because more people are being dramatic like you it doesn't mean you are right.

If you think a frame got destroyed because now you have to move your mouse in order to get the kills, than you probably didn't actually liked to play the game.

[Mr.Lube]

People are so short sighted. They think that reworking a Warframe will make gameplay more immersive and engaging, when the core mechanics of the game don't allow for anything of that kind. Warframe is in dire need of a core mechanic rework on both sides (enemies and Warframes).

[Volinus7]

14 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

People are so short sighted. They think that reworking a Warframe will make gameplay more immersive and engaging, when the core mechanics of the game don't allow for anything of that kind. Warframe is in dire need of a core mechanic rework on both sides (enemies and Warframes).

"DE is so short sighted".

There you go I fixed it up for free lulz.

[Misgenesis]

11 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

People are so short sighted. They think that reworking a Warframe will make gameplay more immersive and engaging, when the core mechanics of the game don't allow for anything of that kind. Warframe is in dire need of a core mechanic rework on both sides (enemies and Warframes).

Its a start and a easier one at that compared to meddling with enemies first. Increasing frame power has lead to the introduction of some infuriating mechanics that punish non meta content. Which there is a lot of.

 

[Mr.Lube]

Just now, Volinus7 said:

"DE is so short sighted".

There you go I fixed it up for free lulz.

You're right, DE is very short sighted. That or they are avoiding this topic at all costs. However, my previous statement is still true; players mistake symptoms for core issues. Like this thread.

[Mr.Lube]

1 minute ago, Misgenesis said:

Its a start and a easier one at that compared to meddling with enemies first. Increasing frame power has lead to the introduction of some infuriating mechanics that punish non meta content. Which there is a lot of.

 

The game has become too bloated. A "stat squish" is what I think is needed. Both the enemies and Warframes need to have their power reduced significantly. Players are able to literally turn off gameplay (utilizing CC) and reap the rewards from it, and this is seen as "normal" when it is completely absurd.

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

The game has become too bloated. A "stat squish" is what I think is needed. Both the enemies and Warframes need to have their power reduced significantly. Players are able to literally turn off gameplay (utilizing CC) and reap the rewards from it, and this is seen as "normal" when it is completely absurd.

Inb4 "But it's a pve game so balance doesn't matter"

[Misgenesis]

1 minute ago, Mr.Lube said:

The game has become too bloated. A "stat squish" is what I think is needed. Both the enemies and Warframes need to have their power reduced significantly. Players are able to literally turn off gameplay (utilizing CC) and reap the rewards from it, and this is seen as "normal" when it is completely absurd.

A stat squish and reworks on both ends. There are some powers that shouldnt be in a part horde mode game.

[Misgenesis]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Inb4 "But it's a pve game so balance doesn't matter"

If anything it matters MORE because they make their living off of putting content behind enemies. Its such a selfish statement.

 

[tnccs215]

Just now, Misgenesis said:

If anything it matters MORE because they make their living off of putting content behind enemies. Its such a selfish statement.

 

It's a ridiculous statement indeed. Specially since this is a free2play game.

not only should they keep a constant effort/reward proportion in order to deliver the desired experience (and to not benefit some playstyles over others -- "overpowered" really isnt a playstyle. Its a bad design choice), they also have to ensure that resources and the like are difficult enough to obtain without being too frustrating, so that the money keeps flowing in.

Everyone denying this as led to the introduction of nullifiers, really.

[Mak_Gohae]

14 hours ago, Tizodd said:

Excalibur's change was needed so he could be more of the swordsman he's supposed to be instead of a walking turret.

 

This is one of the reasons i dont like reworks. A certain section of the player base gets a certain idea of how the frame is supposed to play and they push it and push until DE decides to go for it, adjusts the frame to work like that, and now everyone must work with that.

DE should really have at least 2 versions of power sets instead rework on top of rework.

[Tizodd]

43 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

This is one of the reasons i dont like reworks. A certain section of the player base gets a certain idea of how the frame is supposed to play and they push it and push until DE decides to go for it, adjusts the frame to work like that, and now everyone must work with that.

DE should really have at least 2 versions of power sets instead rework on top of rework.

It's not "a certain section of the player base" that decided Excalibur is a swordsman.  First...lookup Excalibur.  If that's not enough...take note of his passive ability description in-game: "Excalibur deals increased damage and attacks faster when wielding swords".  You can also take a look at his wiki where his passive is titled "Swordsmanship".  Also...his ultimate ability is "Exalted Blade".  Do I have to keep going?

So when you say "a certain section of the player base" you must be referring to [DE].

Edited November 27, 2016 by Tizodd

[tnccs215]

37 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

 

This is one of the reasons i dont like reworks. A certain section of the player base gets a certain idea of how the frame is supposed to play and they push it and push until DE decides to go for it, adjusts the frame to work like that, and now everyone must work with that.

DE should really have at least 2 versions of power sets instead rework on top of rework.

And what happens when DE agrees with that sunset of players?

Truth is, DE isn't a bunch of brainless people who always put the desires of the loudest parts of the community into their game. While they do pander -- and they pander a lot to many people, power fantasy freaks included -- they still only do so because they decided so. Whether we like it, or not.

There is a reason why nullifiers haven't been removed -- because DE wants them in, in spite of all the protests.

And the same happened to Excal. Yes, there were people asking for him to get nerfed -- I was one of them -- and while DE did listen, they also agreed that exturretbur was not healthy for the game.

Stop putting all of us in a turfwar when there's no need or reason to. Stop blaming anyone who DE agreed with for the changes. At least, don't blame them completely, because DE has agency.

 

[(XBOX)Oussii]

20 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

Either change how you think about certain frames or stop reworking them. I'd rather have broken legacy frames than unusable reworked ones.

I second that

[Zaniel_Aus]

15 hours ago, Tizodd said:

Well that's the idea behind the reworks.  Make frames more balanced instead of press-4-to-win.  Saryn still wrecks and even has two viable ways to be played: Spore build and Toxic Lash build.

[DE] has done a great job on all their reworks so far for the most part:

• Nekros is better than he was before because you have more control over what minions are summoned and for ho long.
• Mesa is better and more interactive.  She was basically just a turret before.
• Saryn is still extremely powerful as I mentioned above.
• Excalibur's change was needed so he could be more of the swordsman he's supposed to be instead of a walking turret.
• Ash is more interactive now and plays much more like a ninja instead of a one-button-spammer.
• Mag is better overall but still needs some work imo.  She was way too OP vs Corpus before the rework.  She needed to be changed.

Give it some time and you'll find the Ash rework has made him much more fun.  I went with a balanced build and run Fatal Teleport.  My Smokescreen lasts 12 seconds and I use Bladestorm primarily for killing low-mid level enemies; I use it to apply Slash procs on higher level enemies.  I actually feel like I'm playing a strategic ninja now instead of mindlessly spamming one button.

Its a horrible mixed bag, yes many of these Frames need reworks due to just being single button pressers but they've ballsed them completely.

Its isn't that Saryn and co are crap (power-wise) its that many of the reworks are no fun to play.

Good Synergy = smooth flow that is logical and chains together where you can get better results if you synergise but don't need to play like an ADHD mongoose esa)

Bad Synergy = epileptic unlinked game-flow where powers make no sense and is basically "put underpants on head, spin twice anti-clockwise, double jump, press 2,1,3,4,1,1,,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,4,1 in order to get +5% power (Saryn) and yeah and by the way, most of your advertised synergies do nothing in game (Mag)

Ash isn't as S#&$ty as Saryn and Mag reworks but he's just become more awkward while simultaneously not really fixing any of his problems.

Also some Frames are fun because they are simple, because you can turn on certain powers and then basically focus on gunplay and parkour without having to focus on crazed power mashing (Ember/Frost/Nyx/Rhino/Valkyr).

Recent DE reworks generally = less fun to play, regardless of whether the Frame is more or less powerful after the rework. Plus they often don't fix the original problem (Mag broken vs Corpus + rework = yay now just broken against Grineer)

[DrBorris]

2 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

The game has become too bloated. A "stat squish" is what I think is needed. Both the enemies and Warframes need to have their power reduced significantly. Players are able to literally turn off gameplay (utilizing CC) and reap the rewards from it, and this is seen as "normal" when it is completely absurd.

Ha, do you actually think that could happen? 

A "squishening" as I like to call it inherently means nerfing the upper end of power (and buffing the lower end, but the glass is always half empty). A squishening would be a straight up nerf to those who use the top tier weapons on star chart enemies and are accustomed to a lack of challenge. A lot of people are very very used to this. 

For Pete's sake quite a few members, even some very notable ones, were about to quit when Vacuum, a 100℅ QoL item, was nerfed. Just imagine if you nerfed our combat effectiveness (does not matter if it is for the overall well-being of the game). 

From DE's perspective, they could either have a bunch of disgruntled people who keep playing or have a bunch (small but significant enough amount) of people rage quit. Which do you think they will do? Sure, maybe it would eventually bounce back and would net positive, but that is a risk compared to a known. 

 

-A person who has lost his confidence in the community as a whole. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by DrBorris

[(XBOX)Oussii]

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

 

If you think a frame got destroyed because now you have to move your mouse in order to get the kills, than you probably didn't actually liked to play the game.

Moving a mouse is easy on a PC

Just imagine you have to press 2 bottoms on xbox to activate smoke screen then 2 bottoms to activate the marking of BS and 1 more time to perform the kill

That's 5 bottons in a row. can you imagine how hard it is and how painful and waste of time?

Edited November 27, 2016 by (XB1)Oussii

[StabbyTentacles]

18 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:

With Ash change, there is no way most players complaining have put in enough time with the new skill set to denounce it.    It took me a few hours of mission play and time in the simulcrum to figure out how it worked for me.   So far I like it.   Did have to change my builds, at least solo ones.   Squad builds had to alter how I play some, but still effective.   Also found some perks that I didn't take advantage of before.    Will I continue to like the changes, dunno.  But I do so far.

On higher level Ash's changes make him way more 'stupid to use' if you're trying to lock onto many enemies, or full $&*&*#(%& if you're in a close space. 

Ash's changes might work well for slowed, disarmed enemies, or low level whats it matter enemies; but as the game plays today the re-work/nerf hobbles Ash in a huge way.

 

[Mak_Gohae]

1 hour ago, Tizodd said:

It's not "a certain section of the player base" that decided Excalibur is a swordsman.  First...lookup Excalibur.  If that's not enough...take note of his passive ability description in-game: "Excalibur deals increased damage and attacks faster when wielding swords".  You can also take a look at his wiki where his passive is titled "Swordsmanship".  Also...his ultimate ability is "Exalted Blade".  Do I have to keep going?

So when you say "a certain section of the player base" you must be referring to [DE].

you are using the update that made him into a "swordsman" to prove he is a swordsman.

That doesnt really validate your argument.

Ex has a sword theme, no question, but him being a "swordsman" was something people invented to come up with changes.

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

And what happens when DE agrees with that sunset of players?

Truth is, DE isn't a bunch of brainless people who always put the desires of the loudest parts of the community into their game. While they do pander -- and they pander a lot to many people, power fantasy freaks included -- they still only do so because they decided so. Whether we like it, or not.

There is a reason why nullifiers haven't been removed -- because DE wants them in, in spite of all the protests.

And the same happened to Excal. Yes, there were people asking for him to get nerfed -- I was one of them -- and while DE did listen, they also agreed that exturretbur was not healthy for the game.

Stop putting all of us in a turfwar when there's no need or reason to. Stop blaming anyone who DE agreed with for the changes. At least, don't blame them completely, because DE has agency.

 

I didnt say DE was brainless, i am not starting any turfwar, or anything else, here.

And lets not act like this series of events is just some random thing when this has been happening forever. Like Rhino being a tank when the dude was CC/DMG. People got it into their head that he is a tank and that ended in path to put the frame in role he was build for.

 

 

 

[StabbyTentacles]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

Moving a mouse is easy on a PC

Just imagine you have to press 2 bottoms on xbox to activate smoke screen then 2 bottoms to activate the marking of BS and 1 more time to perform the kill

That's 5 bottoms in a row. can you imagine how hard it is and how painful and waste of time?

Ash's changes simply aren't good on any platform unless you slow time with it, which is counter-intuitive to what the rework was about. 

Warframe's about clearing enemies, while Ash's changes do still allow Ash to do this, but it feels bad; the marking system is $&*&*#(%& enough on PC I couldn't imagine how bad it would be on consol. 

A rework should make it more fluid, not less.

The new Bladestorm system would work better on Shuriken, allow players to mark 5-6 guys and zip zip zip. An ultimate should be more like unleashing a storm, not unleashing Carpal tunnel syndrom. 

[Skollolol]

3 hours ago, Misgenesis said:

The sooner people drop the notion that powers should be minimal effort and maximum output, the better time we are going to have. And a better game.

I cannot comprehend that such minimal changes bring up so much tears. 

 

I don't see that as a problem. I don't think "meta" is a bad word.

Does Warframe even have content where any of that would matter? I don't think so.

Our little squad enjoys Warframe because it offers freedom. I can (could in some cases) choose a solid, safe frame that can get S#&$ done on it's own if need be if the others want to toy around. I can fall back on that frame when I'm tired or exhausted or there actually happens to be a challenge.

They have their own frames covering that for them, and they're not all the same.

You can chose to do something harder than it needs to be because it's fun or a fun challenge.

Taking this away from people so that, I'd wager, the smaller part of the community can feel better about their skill is not something I want.

And I honestly don't think it matters - just make it fun first.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

22 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

sans Nekros).

Nekros was bad too.

22 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

I'd rather have broken legacy frames than unusable reworked ones.

Agreed.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

4 hours ago, Misgenesis said:

The sooner people drop the notion that powers should be minimal effort and maximum output,

Then what is the point in wasting the energy on them instead of just using guns?

[Snowbluff]

Sadly, I have to agree. I tend to not like the reworks. The ash one just makes me sad. I hardly use the frame, but I don't know how the bladestorm is in anyway an improvement.