Ember and Mirage, the fun-killing frames

[Shockwave-]

On 11/28/2016 at 4:38 PM, ChasePanic said:

Ember doesn't bother me too much, at least I haven't encountered many bad ones. But yes Simulor Mirage is a headache. Especially since they apparently don't know how to explode their blorps so you're left unable to pick up power cells. *Shudder*

Valid complaint... other than the fact that simulors don't pick up power cells.... please play the game... then complain.

[Shockwave-]

On 11/29/2016 at 4:26 PM, Jackviator said:

That's kinda not really true though.

Sorties only make up one tiny portion of the game that can only be played once a day anyway. As I have already noted, the solar system makes up the majority of all gameplay for most people on a daily basis, so level 50ish is the highest you'll see in most cases, which Ember can still function at, if at a slightly lower efficiency.

So you are advocating for ember to not be viable in sorties...... why? If that is the highest level content then frames shoudl be balanced to survive there and do well when fully modded out. If they can't something is wrong. If they can do well in sorites, they will not be challenged by Mercury, that's just how it is.

[Jackviator]

9 hours ago, Siekier said:

As for Ember's WoF not requiring any planning ahead etc... Yeah, that's how it works. And I don't see a problem with it.

Things can be simple without being completely brainless and require no input whatsoever from the user. Just look at Mesa's 4. She at least requires you to stand still and aim to kill things, even if initially her aim-bubble is pretty large.

9 hours ago, Siekier said:

I'll say that again, Ember is in a good spot right now.

Agree to disagree.

I haven't seen a build or player playing Ember that wasn't completely focused on her 4 and nothing else for... quite a while now, actually. I saw someone using both her buffer augments to help the team about 50 hours ago, but nearly every other PuG player I've seen playing her before then and since has been pressing 4 and sprinting to extraction.

IMO she's in the same basic state as Mag at the moment; her meta build is only using one of her abilities to counter everything. For Mag it's 2, for Ember it's 4. Sure, their other abilities have their uses in some situations, but if one ability outshines them all you can bet people will quickly forget about the others. That's not a good state to be in.

[Jackviator]

21 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

So you are advocating for ember to not be viable in sorties

I never said that. What I said was that something doesn't need to be super-effective in Sorties to be effective overall. Sorties only make up a tiny, once-per-day portion of this game, after all. They aren't the be-all end-all of the gameplay.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

So nothing being said about nova hunh? Molecular prime....brainless.....trivializes the game....

 

[Xarteros]

On 29/11/2016 at 8:20 AM, Jackviator said:

I'm sorry, what? Realistically, do you think anyone besides people who are at the so-called "endgame," just to screw around, is going to use builds that aren't the meta for particular frames?

Try not to generalise mate. Sure, I'm at MR23 now, but the entire way through this game I've been trying different builds for different roles, often to completely no effect, for the sake of trying them.

I've discovered innumerable builds this way, as have heaps of other people

[Jackviator]

7 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

So nothing being said about nova hunh? Molecular prime....brainless.....trivializes the game....

 

Oh don't worry, I have the same general opinion of Nova, that is to say that people are building for her 4 and nothing else. She's not as brainless as these two though, so I just felt like writing about these 2 for now.

As I said earlier, if I talked about every frame that could use work, I'd run past the character/text limit for posts :P

Edited December 1, 2016 by Jackviator

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

Just now, Jackviator said:

Oh don't worry, I have the same general opinion of Nova, that is to say that people are building for her 4 and nothing else. I just felt like writing about these 2 for now.

As I said earlier, if I talked about every frame that could use work, I'd run past the character/text limit for posts :P

Now that I think about it nobody EVER complains about nova, even tho she turns the hardest of missions noob friendly. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[Coaa]

Embers WOF only destroys stuff at low levels. Once you get above 40 it just mildly hurts them, above 60 and it doesn't even dent them.

I use Ember all the time for firequake. The knockdown does wonders for groups - even at very high levels of play due to them being left open to finishers.

[Calvyr]

I agree with the OP completely. Ember and Simulor Mirage are incredibly annoying to group with. And to those that say these frames are only a problem in low level content, I ended up in a sortie exterminate mission the other day with a Simulor Mirage who ran ahead of everyone else ad did 93% of the damage because nobody else could actually get ahead of her. That's not fun, it's annoying. I think I might start running Limbo more on missions where I suspect I might see those two frames, simply to Banish them so the rest of the team can actually play the game.

[Calvyr]

42 minutes ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

Now that I think about it nobody EVER complains about nova, even tho she turns the hardest of missions noob friendly. 

That's because Nova doesn't kill everything immediately by herself with a single press of a button. The rest of the team can still participate, so it's not as annoying. I love playing Nova, and I'd be a little disappointed if they drastically changed M-Prime, but I like her other abilities enough that as long as they tweaked them as well, I'd be fine.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Calvyr

[Toran]

13 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

That's because Nova doesn't kill everything immediately by herself with a single press of a button. The rest of the team can still participate, so it's not as annoying. I love playing Nova, and I'd be a little disappointed if they drastically changed M-Prime, but I like her other abilities enough that as long as they tweaked them as well, I'd be fine.

So basically, you're fine with an absolutely easy mission aslong your kill count is high enough...

I'll never get behind the logic of witch-hunters - meanwhile I'm happy about every smooth sortie round... as the alternatives to a smooth run can be far more annoying.

[Calvyr]

2 hours ago, Toran said:

So basically, you're fine with an absolutely easy mission aslong your kill count is high enough...

I'll never get behind the logic of witch-hunters - meanwhile I'm happy about every smooth sortie round... as the alternatives to a smooth run can be far more annoying.

I don't necessarily care about my kill count, per se, but at least with M-Prime, everyone can participate, instead of following along behind someone that's massacring everything in and out of sight before anyone else has a chance to even take a shot. If I wanted to play a parkour simulator, I'd play Mirror's Edge. It's not about kill count, it's about participation and there's no way to argue with the fact that WoF Ember and Simulor Mirage deny other squad members the ability to participate.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Calvyr

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, Calvyr said:

That's because Nova doesn't kill everything immediately by herself with a single press of a button. The rest of the team can still participate, so it's not as annoying. I love playing Nova, and I'd be a little disappointed if they drastically changed M-Prime, but I like her other abilities enough that as long as they tweaked them as well, I'd be fine.

Wait so nova is allowed to keep one of the cheesiest AOE abilities in the game as long as other players can get kills, meanwhile frames like ash and ember who are suppose to be mainstream damage dealing frames deserve to be nerf since they do their job correctly?

I understand if other players want some kills, but don't expect to bring a trinity/frost to a mission with an ash on your team and expect to get the same amount of damage.

Edited December 1, 2016 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[-CM-AbsoluteZero]

I agree, its time we rid this game of cancerous cheese:

 

[Calvyr]

 

2 minutes ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

Wait so nova is allowed to keep one of the cheesiest AOE abilities in the game as long as other players can get kills, meanwhile frames like ash and ember who are suppose to be mainstream damage dealing frames deserve to be nerf since they do there job to well?

I will direct you to the post immediately preceding your's:

7 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

I don't necessarily care about my kill count, per se, but at least with M-Prime, everyone can participate, instead of following along behind someone that's massacring everything in and out of sight before anyone else has a chance to even take a shot. If I wanted to play a parkour simulator, I'd play Mirror's Edge. It's not about kill count, it's about participation and there's no way to argue with the fact that WoF Ember and Simulor Mirage deny other squad members the ability to participate.

There's a very big difference between one player wiping out an entire mission's worth of enemies on their own and one making it easier for the group as a whole to complete the mission. When you're running with a WoF Ember or Simulor Mirage, they're really the only one that needs to be there, the rest are along for the ride. That's not fun.

[Jackviator]

1 minute ago, Calvyr said:

 

I will direct you to the post immediately preceding your's:

There's a very big difference between one player wiping out an entire mission's worth of enemies on their own and one making it easier for the group as a whole to complete the mission. When you're running with a WoF Ember or Simulor Mirage, they're really the only one that needs to be there, the rest are along for the ride. That's not fun.

Basically this. Hell, that's basically the main idea of the massive wall of text that is my initial post, summed up in 3 concise sentences. I'm impressed :P

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

27 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

 

I will direct you to the post immediately preceding your's:

There's a very big difference between one player wiping out an entire mission's worth of enemies on their own and one making it easier for the group as a whole to complete the mission. When you're running with a WoF Ember or Simulor Mirage, they're really the only one that needs to be there, the rest are along for the ride. That's not fun.

OK I understand that now, but I just don't want damage dealing frames to be forced to setup their abilities, which isn't a bad thing, but in a game where CC frames can just as easily clean a room with their abilities/weapons kinda suck.?

[Calvyr]

1 minute ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

OK I understand that now, but I just don't want damage dealing frames to be forced to setup their abilities, which isn't a bad thing, but in a game where CC frames can just as easily clean a room with their abilities/weapons kinda suck.?

I'm certainly not against damage focused frames, but there really needs to be more synergy both between their own abilities and the rest of their group. I'm really not a fan of "one trick ponies" which is why, even on frames that have one particularly strong ability, I try to use the others as well and I really appreciate the way that DE have been striving to make all of each frames' abilities useful.

[Shockwave-]

14 hours ago, Jackviator said:

I never said that. What I said was that something doesn't need to be super-effective in Sorties to be effective overall. Sorties only make up a tiny, once-per-day portion of this game, after all. They aren't the be-all end-all of the gameplay.

Yes they are. While they may not be for everyone, they are the endgame right now, so frames need to be viable in sorties. They need to do well in sorties. So yes they have to be super effective in sorties. Otherwise you are advocating for tiered frames. Some frames can't handles high level content and others can. And whichever frames can handle high level content will always trivalize low level content.

Your premise was it's ok to nerf Ember even though it already doesn't do too well on sorties as it is, making it so underpowered in sorties that it can't handle them at all.

[Jackviator]

24 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

Your premise was it's ok to nerf Ember even though it already doesn't do too well on sorties as it is,

How many times am I going to have to explain this... reworking doesn't mean nerfing. Fundamentally changing how something works is not a nerf, it's a rework. Rework does not equal nerf.

Hell, in a perfect world I'd BUFF Ember's other abilities to usable/more versatile levels so she can more effectively do endgame content, but simply change how her 4 works so it's not an instant death radius at all times. Because that's the meta of what people build her for, using one ability that's just an aimbot Ignis.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Jackviator

[Shockwave-]

41 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

How many times am I going to have to explain this... reworking doesn't mean nerfing. Fundamentally changing how something works is not a nerf, it's a rework. Rework does not equal nerf.

Hell, in a perfect world I'd BUFF Ember's other abilities to usable/more versatile levels so she can more effectively do endgame content, but simply change how her 4 works so it's not an instant death radius at all times. Because that's the meta of what people build her for, using one ability that's just an aimbot Ignis.

You will have to explain it until you stop contradicting yourself. You advocated for ember to function at a lower efficiency than she does now. That is a NERF. If you don't recall stating that I can quote it for you. That is the textbook definition of a nerf. While you may want the nerf, it is still a nerf. Rework absolutely equals nerf, if the frame can't kill as fast or easily as it did before. You are literally, nerfing the frame's ability to easily kill.

You are NOT advocating for a rework to elminate the brainelessness (as you put it) of WOF. You will not be happy with a rework that requires a player to say push more buttons but retain the ability to kill as fast and move as quickly. That would not change what you want changed because a good ember player would still not let others participate. You want to reduce her overall effectiveness.

At least admit you want a nerf that has nothing to do with making ember players play more or use more skill, you want them simply not be able to wipe the low level maps as fast no matter how much skill they have at playing ember, so that others can get more kills.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Shockwave-

[Jackviator]

On 12/1/2016 at 3:23 PM, Shockwave- said:

You will have to explain it until you stop contradicting yourself.

Then I guess I won't have to keep explaining it, will I, because I haven't contradicted myself.

 

On 11/28/2016 at 3:20 PM, Jackviator said:

So basically, what I'm trying to say is that WoF and the way that Hall of Mirrors interacts with certain weapons both need to be reworked, and soon. They are brainless abilities that simply take the fun away from anyone who isn't using them and turn any given mission into a race to the finish line.

Note the use of the word "reworked" in that sentence from the initial post. And at what point did I say "nerf" in that particular sentence? I've been straightforward what I'd like to see happen from the beginning. A REWORK.

On 12/1/2016 at 3:23 PM, Shockwave- said:

If you don't recall stating that I can quote it for you.

Don't worry mate, you don't need to. I'll do it myself:

On 11/29/2016 at 4:35 PM, Jackviator said:

I'd like to make it clear, my goal is not just to see these frames/weapons nerfed, but reworked so they both require a bit of effort/input from the wielder, a bit more forethought/strategy, and are overall a bit less... efficient, shall we say. AKA it would take more than a femtosecond and a single button press to clear a room of enemies.

I believe you'll find the point in bold presents what I want quite clearly. As for what I meant by the second, italicized part (and it's understandable you might not have seen this, I simply ran out of space in the original post for what I had in mind) I meant that her ability would actually, yes, require forethought:

On 11/28/2016 at 5:03 PM, Jackviator said:

As for Ember, there are plenty of rework suggestions to read, but I saw and liked the idea of something that could lock down an area temporarily and truly set the world (terrain) on fire, similar to how Ignis units can set portions of the terrain on fire that damage Warframes. This way, enemies that step on them would be damaged and stunned while on the burning terrain, but it wouldn't just be a death-aura around Ember at all times while channeling. It would also give her some much-needed CC, which she lacks without the aug for her 4. Her 3 could also change to something more useful as well to compensate for her 4 being essentially a better version of it, perhaps some damage-mitigation skill like she had in the old days.

I want her 4 (and ideally 3 as well) to change fundamentally from what it is at present, to be more focused on CC and damage mitigation (both things viewed as valuable in Sorties, incidentally) without the use of bandaid augments. When I said efficient, I was merely referring to the fact that the ability would not function as it does now, it would mostly likely require the use of weapons alongside the ability to kill enemies, which is effective in a particular area.

That's not a nerf. That, is a rework. They would have different functions, different purposes, entirely different mechanics to what they have now. Apples to oranges, incomparables, use whatever phrase you like. They would function entirely different.

That.

Is.

Not.

A.

Nerf.

It's a rework.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Jackviator

[Thebel]

1 hour ago, Jackviator said:

How many times am I going to have to explain this... reworking doesn't mean nerfing. Fundamentally changing how something works is not a nerf, it's a rework. Rework does not equal nerf.

Hell, in a perfect world I'd BUFF Ember's other abilities to usable/more versatile levels so she can more effectively do endgame content, but simply change how her 4 works so it's not an instant death radius at all times. Because that's the meta of what people build her for, using one ability that's just an aimbot Ignis.

Ember works fine for end game content though, that's just a build and meta problem, people realize there are frames that do endgame better. It's no different than people using stealth frames for spy missions or the king of def Frost for any sort of defending. Ember wiping low level stuff is no different than any CC frame turning mobs into fish in a barrel unless you feel that shooting stationary targets makes you feel skilled or some minor contribution to the group. Ember is as balanced as any other dps frame really, what's the difference between her and Rhino/Excal/Sayrn/Nezha or really any frame with an AoE nuke? You can't really argue, "oh it costs less energy", energy is pretty pointless in this game, it's a minor thing that barely stops any sort of power spamming.

[Jackviator]

6 hours ago, Thebel said:

what's the difference between her and Rhino/Excal/Sayrn/Nezha or really any frame with an AoE nuke?

vvv

10 hours ago, Calvyr said:

When you're running with a WoF Ember or Simulor Mirage, they're really the only one that needs to be there, the rest are along for the ride. That's not fun.

As Calvyr and I have said, it's more a matter of allowing participation. Ember and Mirage (and the players controlling them) don't need the team to be there, and tbh a lot of teams don't want her there either. They're fun-killing frames, as the title would suggest.

6 hours ago, Thebel said:

Ember wiping low level stuff is no different than any CC frame turning mobs into fish in a barrel unless you feel that shooting stationary targets makes you feel skilled or some minor contribution to the group.

It's not about contributing to the group, it's more an issue of making it possible to let the group contribute, as I've said, over and over now, without the point seeming to sink in for a lot of people.

And finally there's also the matter of not being completely brainless, as I've said, over and over now, without the point seeming to sink in for a lot of people.

Sure, other AOE nukes exist, and sure, they can wipe squads of enemies, but they're not actively nuking at all times, constantly, in the immediate area around the frames, as Ember does. They require you to at least press a button that allows you to nuke a set area around you once, unless you spam the ability and waste all your energy. They also sometimes have casting animations that leave you open to enemy punishment if you do them at inopportune times, leading you to actually have to think about when to use them, unlike Ember, who's more a press-4-and-forget frame.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Jackviator