Limbo feedback

[Drunkarius]

I love my Limbo, I've played it a good bit, so I thought I'd provide some feedback on the upcoming rework.  Long story short, I don't want a dramatic change, I just want them to make the void a little better so there's an incentive to enter it (and maybe remove the incentives not to enter it).

My big problem is really Cataclysm.  Cataclysm really isn't doing what it's supposed to do: I think it's supposed to allow me to swap a lot of targets into the void, so that I can kill them efficiently, and it's supposed to double as a defensive bubble, so Limbo can defend an objective like Frost or Vauban.

The problem is, there's a catch in each case that prevents Cataclysm from actually filling either role.  It doesn't really work to let me kill lots of people: if I void-shift a lot of targets, they'll just massacre me, because Limbo is too frail to be on the same "plane" as lots of hostiles.  Cataclysm also doesn't stun people who enter it (the way that void-switching someone with the first power does), so new targets that come in can just open up on me.  Second, in a lot of missions, it doesn't work as a defensive bubble, because it prevents people from carrying items in, and it prevents people from firing out (unlike basically any other defensive power I can think of).  Limbo is one of the only frames that can actually hurt more than it helps: if you bring a limbo to an Excavation and bubble a drill - which might make sense to a new player - you'll actually screw your team over pretty effectively.  I feel like using a defensive bubble to protect a target shouldn't be a net-negative.

Basically, I propose reworking the effects the void has, and making them worse for enemies (and better for team-mates).

• Enemies in the Void should have their damage reduced, so that Limbo can void-shift a group with Cataclysm and have a reasonable chance of survival
• Enemies in the Void should take damage-over-time, possibly as a function of his Power; this further incentivizes players to put their Cataclysm somewhere lots of enemies will be.
• Friendlies in the Void should get more buffs, like f.ex. a Heal-over-Time effect.  This might make it a viable strategy for friendlies to duck into the Cataclysm bubble to heal up for a few seconds, and then jump back out again to kill things (even if they still can't fire out).
• (Personally, I'd be willing to give up the initial-damage-on-entrance effect that void-shifting a target currently has, to gain the two benefits above)
• People should be able to carry Objectives in the Void, but doing so should cause a speed penalty; this way, Limbo can be useful on Excavations and Mobile Defenses, without letting him completely negate the challenging aspects of those modes.

Finally, I really don't want to see the current void get replaced by a time-shifting mechanic.  It doesn't sound like I'd be able to do the things I enjoy doing with Limbo now - like protecting the Space Baby (i.e. Tenno Operative) or avoiding getting aura'ed to death by Eximus Stronghold missions.  And frankly it just doesn't sound fun to me, the way it was described.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Drunkarius

[Methanoid]

same/similar experiences with me, i run a duration build, only using Continuity/Constitution as they are more than enough, and in find the same issue with Cataclysm, in a different thread i mentioned a small change to make it more useful exactly for dealing with groups.

Quote

i'd rather have Cataclysm produce a circular explosion where you aim (affected by power range) that briefly staggers anything caught in the blast and sending them into the void for Power Duration(s) worth of time, maybe include some debuff or sorts (speed/armor/something else original maybe), I dont see that it needs to be any more than a simple AOE banish with an extra debuff gimmick thrown in, id be happy with that.

I think while inside the void, the buff we get at present is already pretty good on its own, buffing our energy regen.  As for rift surge, anything would be better than the knockoff rhino roar we have atm.

[Driku]

The problem with some things that you said is that it would turn Limbo into a Death-Machine/Gameplay-Breaker/Easyframe.
Running with objectives while in void? It would turn nearly any mission, if not all of them, into a walk through a garden. No damage, no limits, just walking. But with bullet jump and parkour, that´s a joke. And parkour/mobility shouldn´t be "nullified" while in the void. It would actually kill what the game stands for, "space ninjas". Also, turning an ability based on utility/battlefield control into a AoE DoT with debbufs for enemies and buffs for teammates is just overkill. It´s like asking a Titania, which has a deffined role (buffer) to go full tank, or trying to kill a lvl 140 heavy gunner in a survival with a mk1-braton. It´s no use. Warframe already lacks utility-based frames.

Also, you finished your feedback with some subjective thoughts before you DE even showed us the actual rework or how new limbo´s ult would look like. The concept of Limbo controlling time goes accord to the lore of the game and sounds as a promising mechanic. More than the actual Limbo, who has (right used oc) one of the best controlling skills in the game, but also one of the most trolling-like ones. It won´t hurt anyone to just wait and see what DE can achieve before asking for changes IMO.

[PsiWarp]

For clarity's sake, there are 3 dimensions: Material Plane, Rift Plane, and the Void. I know it's easier to say Void but that is a common misconception.

Scott knows not to mess with Limbo's core identity, which is the Rift Plane. On the stream he described the time-slow/stop idea with the Rift Plane in mind (slowing or stopping time in the rift). Given this brief and vague info, it's easier to assume that they are planning to keep the dimensional separation (battlefield control) mechanic intact, with a new ability that does the timey wimey thingamabob. Which I'd imagine as being enemies under Banish and Cataclysm are slowed to a crawl and frozen in time.

If anything they are considering getting rid of, it's Rift Walk due to dodge-rolls being altered into a short-distance teleport + how Limbo himself enters/exits the rift. Nowhere did they mention removing the Rift Plane.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I run a Naramon + crit Attarax with a Rift Torrent Limbo. The invisibility on crit really helps keep Limbo safe while slaughtering enemies in Cataclysm and Rift Surge with its augment gives me a huge weapon damage bonus. The more enemies in the rift, the bigger my bonus.

Whatever DE does to rework him, I hope they don't remove his dps. However if they're giving him time stopping powers in the rift, he might not need Naramon anymore to keep himself alive.

[BeefSauce]

14 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

If anything they are considering getting rid of, it's Rift Walk due to dodge-rolls being altered into a short-distance teleport + how Limbo himself enters/exits the rift.

This could turn out to be really interesting by adding a risk vs reward aspect to blinking about the field. (Assuming each blink toggles rift walk). 

This could also take control away from players if limbo only exists in the rift for the duration of the blink. In this case, cataclysm (assuming it remains relatively unchanged) becomes the new rift walk which only kinda works if you have obscene energy gen and near instant cast times (blinking from one bubble to the next).

I think the toggle by blinking option fits limbo better as it can result in rift "accidents" which the player can control. So if one were to blink about and accidentally toggle off rift walk then eat point blank ogris, you at least know that was on you and not you being forced into the open trying to bubble hop.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I'm just hoping that the planned Limbo rework doesn't touch Rift Walk. Omfg please please pleeeeeeeease DO NOT TOUCH Rift Walk, DE.

Please.

[ChameleonBro]

Actually you just need to know how to use Cataclysm to your own advantage in defense type missions.

Defense - cast Cataclysm on the pod you are protecting (NOTE: the bubble should be smaller than his average size so Narrow Minded is perfect for that role (preferebly not maxed and no stretch or overextended). With a smaller bubble you don't need to stay inside it to be able to protect the pod. Go outside of the bubble and fight enemies that way, don't worry about the drop from inside the Cataclysm.

Excavation - Fill the excavator to full power and cast Cataclysm. Just make sure it is full before casting it, or getting rid of it when you need more power.

[Methanoid]

1 hour ago, ChameleonBro said:

Actually you just need to know how to use Cataclysm to your own advantage in defense type missions.

Defense - cast Cataclysm on the pod you are protecting (NOTE: the bubble should be smaller than his average size so Narrow Minded is perfect for that role (preferebly not maxed and no stretch or overextended). With a smaller bubble you don't need to stay inside it to be able to protect the pod. Go outside of the bubble and fight enemies that way, don't worry about the drop from inside the Cataclysm.

Excavation - Fill the excavator to full power and cast Cataclysm. Just make sure it is full before casting it, or getting rid of it when you need more power.

in the case of myself i dont want limbo to be a poor mans frost or vauban limited to just being useful in defence missions so cataclysm to me still serves no useful purpose if im on a fast paced sab/cap/ext mission etc, cata doesnt get used because its a total waste of time and requires enemys to be static standing inside it, instead it should be helping us kill or deal with groups of enemys as a polar opposite to banish that happily lets me deal with 1-2 targets at a time.

At least with bastille or snowglobe they help delay the enemy even if your running away and their not even power sucking ultimates.

[ChameleonBro]

On 12/14/2016 at 9:56 PM, Methanoid said:

in the case of myself i dont want limbo to be a poor mans frost or vauban limited to just being useful in defence missions so cataclysm to me still serves no useful purpose if im on a fast paced sab/cap/ext mission etc, cata doesnt get used because its a total waste of time and requires enemys to be static standing inside it, instead it should be helping us kill or deal with groups of enemys as a polar opposite to banish that happily lets me deal with 1-2 targets at a time.

At least with bastille or snowglobe they help delay the enemy even if your running away and their not even power sucking ultimates.

The thing with Cataclysm is that it  can be built in different ways. Smaller bubble for defense type missions and a giant bubble on different types of missions so that you can cover a lot of ground. And if built with enough damage it can be used as a mini nuke. Saying that Limbo is a poor mans Frost/Vauban just doesn't make any sense since Limbo is not built to do the same job they do.

Edited December 17, 2016 by ChameleonBro

[Methanoid]

7 hours ago, ChameleonBro said:

The thing with Cataclysm is that it  can be built in different ways. Smaller bubble for defense type missions and a giant bubble on different types of missions so that you can cover a lot of ground. And if built with enough damage it can be used as a mini nuke. Saying that Limbo is a poor mans Frost/Vauban just doesn't make any sense since Limbo is not built to do the same job they do.

except it doesnt matter how big the bubble is, melee units still do all the damage they like while inside the bubble along with the defence/etc target, and even worse teammates cant shoot them inside the bubble, mobs dont even suffer a debuff effect or other useful purpose while inside so they will quite happily whack extractors/cryopods and the likes unimpaired.

If hes setup like you said, as say as big nuke (poor mans nova), its still low damage and only really useful on low lvl mobs which nearly all frames can pummel anyways.  At present limbo feels like a poor version of other frames abilitys/roles.

 

Banish ?  Pretty much the same as a lot of frames ability number 1 to damage single targets, no surprise there.
Rift Walk ? Actually quite handy but just invisibility with a different spin on it.
Rift Surge ? Rhino Roar, except rhino roar affects all sources of damage and limbo only affects weapon power and requires him to be in the void and as such also his targets.
Cataclysm ? Poor mans bastille/snowglobe, no debuffs while inside, targets required to be static, has no real useful purpose vs melee units unless your inside with them, used as a nuke, abandons the supposed defensive posture for a small power sucking nuke for low/mid lvls, also gimps rift walk and rift surge in the process.

His mechanics are too fiddley, cumbersome and going from information presented ingame, as usual the mechanics involved are totally hidden away from new players which is a major put-off.  Basically he does a poor job of all other frames he slightly imitates.

Can he work?  same as any frame, yeah, give him an obscure niche setup and he can do a passable job, is he fun?  nope, i only use him with max duration setup for rift walk to easily get through nightmare exterminates, beyond that any other frame does better, quicker and with far less hassle and annoyance for anything else.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Methanoid