Cap the Cumulative Login System's Unique Rewards

[Cool3303]

@Callback

I think the discussion is very much caught up in why a system with accumulating rewards is reasonable instead of asking what it actually does for the game.
Arguing that the players are responsible for loging in and new players just don't deserve it yet is very much fine on the one side while arguing that locking gamechanging content behind over 300 days of wait for new players doesn't make any sense (since even casual players can try everything else worthwile in that time)...

However it doesn't go to the crux of the matter and the OP fails to point this out.

Why can we not just get the unique login rewards from baro or the market?

DE does not actively create "more" content just for the login reward system. There is no "reward"... they just lock the content behind the login screen.
This serves no one, especially considering that crafting costs in this game are as good as always of no concern.

I very much agree with the OP that the non-unique rewards are fine. Afterall the game has a lot of avenues for acquiring all of them.
So that means players are still rewarded for logging in. Potentially more since a 3-day booster is worth more than a potato and item slot (+whatever measly costs the weapon would require)

@Faulcun I hope you can reconsider your stance especially since you would still get the weapon for logging in for (potentially less than) 500 days in a row.
Having the primed mods on Baro would reward players that invest the time to farm ducats - arguably more impactfull than forcing people to login and alt+f4
You would just need to get to the market to get the blueprint (or buy it with plat)
And you wouldn't even need to keep arguing how irresponsible all the players that do not log in daily or came late are.

Locking (non-cosmetic) content behind the login counter:

-Runs counter to DE's policy of "releasing as soon as possible"

-Creates a power gap between players (especially in case of primed mods)

-Inhibits a players acessible builds (Zenistar is a supreme addition to defensive builds)
 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Cool3303

[Tyrian3k]

1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

Fair enough, but you arent helping your argument either. It isnt much effort... in fact its stupid easy requiring little to no effort like you said. It is literally the easiest thing to do in the game to acquire something, especially something halfway decent. Why exactly does that need to change to something more convoluted?

People like being able to put effort into things to get something out of it. With the login rewards, you have no option to put extra effort into it to get to your goal faster. To a lot of people, not being able to go the extra mile is frustrating, because, no matter what they do, nothing changes.

If I missed out on a year's worth of "regular" content like quests, new weapons, new warframes etc., I can catch up by farming all of the parts and building them. How quickly this happens is dependent on how much time I spend farming, so I can do it at my own pace.

 

1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

But it is.... the reward is inescapable, guaranteed, and forever unchanging. You cannot avoid getting it. It is going to happen. The only way to stop yourself from getting ANY login reward would be to stop playing the game permanently.

We have login rewards that are over a year away from us. It is not unreasonable to believe that you might not even play the game any more after such a long time. Other than that, DE might shut Warframe down before that as well. Lots of things can happen in such a long time.

 

But that aside, the most worrying thing to me is what happens when the final "big" reward that is currently in the game has been reached. Will they just add more, letting new players see that they will have to log in every single day for several years? The more days are between the players and the reward, the more players will be discouraged, rather than encouraged, which isn't exactly a great thing, especially since all players get a daily reminder of their progress.

Imagine it like a carrot on a stick. If you make the stick longer and longer, the horse will eventually stop caring and not bother trying to reach the carrot any more.

[(PSN)bjTBITS]

I agree with OP. A cap on exclusive weapons/mods from the login reward system would be nice. It's asking a bit much of a player to login for 1000 days, which is nearly three years. I think 400-500 days would be a nice cap. One login exclusive family of weapons is perfect.

Then, after players hit the login-exclusive-reward cap, they could get plat discount coupons, rare mods or parts of items that are in the game, cosmetics, boosters, more valuable amounts of resources / credits / Endo. Heck, for logging in so long, players could even get Riven mods, Arcanes, or tokens for Sorties, Raids, or Fissure missions that allow them to pick what reward they want. Maybe DE could make Arcane Helmets available as login rewards. Maybe they could make "Prisma Coins" that let players choose an item from Baro Ki'Teer without having to pay credits or ducats. Maybe an increase on the Focus / Syndicate standing cap could even be a login reward for that day.

Point is, there's definitely a bunch of things that players could receive for login rewards that would be just as, if not more, valuable than login-exclusive weapons or mods. If this is implemented, players would still have a good incentive to continue ticking up that login counter, and players that have lagged behind can still feel that they are missing out on something for not having enough logins without having their Mastery Rank or mod collection permanently gimped.

And, after veterans reach the login-exclusive reward cap, they could feel more at ease taking a break from the game if they so desire. Or, perhaps, they won't take a break, because they still have really good rewards to look forward to. Those rewards would just happen to not be exclusive content.

Of course, DE could always just do as Cool3303 suggested and make login-exclusive rewards available elsewhere in the game at the cost of much more hassle. I think both ways of addressing the problem would be simple to execute and pretty good solutions overall, because both solutions keep the players with high login ahead of the players with low login without actually cutting content from the low login players' experience.

Edited December 27, 2016 by (PS4)bjTBITS
Typo

[Sahansral]

3 hours ago, (PS4)bjTBITS said:

I agree with OP. A cap on exclusive weapons/mods from the login reward system would be nice. It's asking a bit much of a player to login for 1000 days, which is nearly three years. I think 400-500 days would be a nice cap. One login exclusive family of weapons is perfect.

Then, after players hit the login-exclusive-reward cap, they could get plat discount coupons, rare mods or parts of items that are in the game, cosmetics, boosters, more valuable amounts of resources / credits / Endo. Heck, for logging in so long, players could even get Riven mods, Arcanes, or tokens for Sorties, Raids, or Fissure missions that allow them to pick what reward they want. Maybe DE could make Arcane Helmets available as login rewards. Maybe they could make "Prisma Coins" that let players choose an item from Baro Ki'Teer without having to pay credits or ducats. Maybe an increase on the Focus / Syndicate standing cap could even be a login reward for that day.

Point is, there's definitely a bunch of things that players could receive for login rewards that would be just as, if not more, valuable than login-exclusive weapons or mods. If this is implemented, players would still have a good incentive to continue ticking up that login counter, and players that have lagged behind can still feel that they are missing out on something for not having enough logins without having their Mastery Rank or mod collection permanently gimped.

And, after veterans reach the login-exclusive reward cap, they could feel more at ease taking a break from the game if they so desire. Or, perhaps, they won't take a break, because they still have really good rewards to look forward to. Those rewards would just happen to not be exclusive content.

Of course, DE could always just do as Cool3303 suggested and make login-exclusive rewards available elsewhere in the game at the cost of much more hassle. I think both ways of addressing the problem would be simple to execute and pretty good solutions overall, because both solutions keep the players with high login ahead of the players with low login without actually cutting content from the low login players' experience.

Althoug I appriciate your search for a compromise, I think no bridge can be build between the two camps. The people which invested dedication want to have it a real pay off. No boosters, no resources, credits, endo, tokens....When I reach a certain threshold, I don't want a sigil or an arcane. I can buy those things!  Sorry, for me only exclusive gear pays off (with no alternative way of gaining it). I want something to look forward to.

And everything that keeps me hooked on will cause the members of the other camp scream bloody murder.

You can't come up with a reward that keeps the one crowd excited while not infuriating the other crowd.

[Caelward]

So here's what I think about the login system. Been playing since Beta (and by beta, I mean the days of the founders).

I have only logged 140 days on the cumalative login system and I really don't consider it a big deal that I've missed out. It's a small selection of good, but not pivotal items.

Good. But not Pivotal. Nice to have, but in no way does not having them cripple the game. Argue all you want, stuff like Zenistar is cool, but not having it doesn't make the game unplayable. Hardly grounds to call those who are behind 'peasants'. You can log in for an hour every day and great, you have that primed fury, the Zenistar and all that. But you'll still have nowhere near the gear that the player who logs in for hours on end.

It's a system designed to foster dedication by encouraging people to login every day. If they don't log in, they don't count that day. On the other hand, at least it doesn't mess up the 7 day login streak that they required you to keep before for the good rewards. It's been the nature of things for those who stick to a task the soonest and the longest to have their dedication pay off. I never want to make an argument that the people who show their dedication aren't rewarded before those who don't.

I mean, if you stick that many days in YOU WILL GET THOSE ITEMS. How many systems in this grindy game even work like that?! I'm far more discouraged by the dicerolls of systems like sortie rewards and whether I can get that damn Riven. Two weeks and I get one riven, great. I love hearing about all those fantastic tonkor rivens that people are finding when I got myself a laser rifle riven for my sentinel. I spent two weeks to get nothing, and the next guy I see talk about it on the forum managed 9 rivens in two weeks. Apparently his time was worth rewarding more so than mine. There are no hidden traps in the login system. Log in this many days in a row, get that rewards. Simple.

If you consider breaks from the game a punishment due to the way the system works, then I'd argue you need to reconsider your viewpoint. It's not a punishment for missing a day. Its an encouragement to keep playing. If you can't play for some time, those items aren't going anywhere. They'll still be waiting when and if you come back. DE didn't take the days you missed away from you. If those items were only available on that one day you missed, then sure, it would be a punishment, but that is not the case. The things preventing you from having those items are in fact, makings you do the opposite of what DE wants. They want you to login everyday for the rewards and the game as a whole. Other players enjoying themselves thanks to the time they spent is not a good reason to get upset. When you spend the time they have already spent, you'll have that toy as well. If some days were stolen from you, look at the reason those days were stolen. Not DE and the players of warframe.

TL:DR I'm happy enough with the current login bonus system and would rather [DE] work on other aging systems and warframes that need more attention.

[dice]

It bothers me to a certain extent that people are disagreeing with this, and not because I would be unable to deal with people with opposing opinions, because I can.

I really can't tell where this stems from, is it elitism? Does it come from the people who have logged in every single day since the system's inception, and want to be rewarded for their loyalty?

[(PSN)bjTBITS]

10 hours ago, Sahansral said:

Althoug I appriciate your search for a compromise, I think no bridge can be build between the two camps. The people which invested dedication want to have it a real pay off. No boosters, no resources, credits, endo, tokens....When I reach a certain threshold, I don't want a sigil or an arcane. I can buy those things!  Sorry, for me only exclusive gear pays off (with no alternative way of gaining it). I want something to look forward to.

And everything that keeps me hooked on will cause the members of the other camp scream bloody murder.

You can't come up with a reward that keeps the one crowd excited while not infuriating the other crowd.

Thing is, login rewards don't reward dedication. 

They reward logging in. 

Say Player X logs in for two minutes every day just to get his login ticked up and never buys platinum, while Player Y logs in to play for 5 hours but can only play every other day and buys platinum regularly, maybe $5 a week. 300 days pass, and Player X, with 10 hours of playtime, gets twice the rewards of Player Y, with 750 hours of playtime and $210 dollars spent supporting the game.

Player Y is clearly the more dedicated player, but the login system keeps him 3 exclusive rewards behind Player X at all times.

If DE continues to endlessly develop login-exclusive rewards, dedicated players get shafted for not being able to play every single day of their lives. On the other hand, if DE did cap rewards and didn't add any more rewards after it, dedicated players get shafted FOR being able to login every day of their lives. That is why I think neither of those are a solution. A solution would be non-exclusive content rewards after a capped number of exclusive content rewards. 

I guess the divide here is that some players don't consider things rewards unless they are the only ones to have it. Exclusivity just makes players feel good about their status and effort in the game - they are above someone else, and it feels good to be there.

However, if the reward is that you can use the weapon months and months before others can use it -  in which case early access would be the reward - that still maintains that higher-status feeling: "Nice, while those people with 100 days are just now getting to play around with the Azima, I'm already here playing with the Zenistar."

In this alternative system, the higher-status feeling you get with having higher login than others would still be maintained. The cause of that feeling would just be early access, not exclusivity. 

I also don't think that non-exclusive rewards would "infuriate" people with higher login. Some who desire only exclusive weapons and mods as login rewards would no longer have much to look forward to, can't argue that. But I think that the wealth of other things that could be rewarded would be just as satisfying for the majority of people.

There's only one other way that this could be done without holding a constant stunt on the growth of players who can't login every day, and it's not as good a solution as the other ones are, but I suppose it would still serve its purpose.

DE could cap only login-exclusive mods at 500 days. They could continue to develop login-exclusive weapons, but the weapons would have to not reward any MR for ranking them. Technically, low login in players still get shafted in this system, but at least their accounts aren't permanently scarred by low login, and high login players still maintain their higher status.

Edited December 27, 2016 by (PS4)bjTBITS
Typo

[Avereth]

I suggest a system that allows dedicated players to keep getting new things, but offers newer or returning players some choice.  You should be able to pick a 100 day login 'set' based upon which day 100 reward you want.  Once selected, you are locked in until day 100.  This way, if you feel like primed fury is going to change your life more than zenistar, you can go for primed fury first, or some other item/mod.  And this way dedicated players still get new things to go for too, but newer ones can aim for the very same new things.

[Sahansral]

4 hours ago, (PS4)bjTBITS said:

I also don't think that non-exclusive rewards would "infuriate" people with higher login. Some who desire only exclusive weapons and mods as login rewards would no longer have much to look forward to, can't argue that. But I think that the wealth of other things that could be rewarded would be just as satisfying for the majority of people.

There's only one other way that this could be done without holding a constant stunt on the growth of players who can't login every day, and it's not as good a solution as the other ones are, but I suppose it would still serve its purpose.

Here, I find your argumentation a bit ambigous. On one side, you want to convince people who are quite happy with with the current reward system into accepting a system which won't offer them something to look forward to and just suck it up "for the greater good". (Majority? Hmm, really sure about that?)

On the other side, waiting to get 3-4 weapons/mods whith hundreds of others weapons/mods available is considered gamebreaking and inacceptable?

Sounds not like an attractive offer for me, sorry. I still would rather opt for continuing the current system. The proposed alternatives sounds too much like the first reward system, which wasn't rewarding at all.

Oh, and btw, I beg to differ. Daily logins show indeed dedication. Our opposing view on this point ensures me that will be nearly impossible to establish common ground here,

Edited December 27, 2016 by Sahansral

[Faulcun]

18 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

@Faulcun I hope you can reconsider your stance especially since you would still get the weapon for logging in for (potentially less than) 500 days in a row.
Having the primed mods on Baro would reward players that invest the time to farm ducats - arguably more impactfull than forcing people to login and alt+f4
You would just need to get to the market to get the blueprint (or buy it with plat)
And you wouldn't even need to keep arguing how irresponsible all the players that do not log in daily or came late are.

Locking (non-cosmetic) content behind the login counter:

-Runs counter to DE's policy of "releasing as soon as possible"

-Creates a power gap between players (especially in case of primed mods)

-Inhibits a players acessible builds (Zenistar is a supreme addition to defensive builds)

I simply have different standards of discipline than you, therefore I disagree with the motives of your argument.

Content is released at the moment of creation. Its up to the player to obtain it.

The power gap is in your head. There are plenty of people, myself included, that can outperform the majority of other players without using primed mods. There is not any one single item in the game that makes a player "godlike" just because they have it and somebody else doesnt.

Zenistar is one weapon out of ~300. Three Hundred. 3 HUNDRED! Again... If you are trying to argue that this weapon is required in order to have the best defensive build... we need to be having a different discussion.

18 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

People like being able to put effort into things to get something out of it. With the login rewards, you have no option to put extra effort into it to get to your goal faster. To a lot of people, not being able to go the extra mile is frustrating, because, no matter what they do, nothing changes.

If I missed out on a year's worth of "regular" content like quests, new weapons, new warframes etc., I can catch up by farming all of the parts and building them. How quickly this happens is dependent on how much time I spend farming, so I can do it at my own pace.

The difference is that login rewards are guaranteed. There is no RNG. It took me 1100 hours of in game time to pull "hate" from the stalker. I have members in my clan that are going on 1700hrs and still dont have hate. You can farm all you want.... and never pull the item you are looking for. At least in the login rewards I know exactly when Ill get it.

 

18 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

We have login rewards that are over a year away from us. It is not unreasonable to believe that you might not even play the game any more after such a long time. Other than that, DE might shut Warframe down before that as well. Lots of things can happen in such a long time.

It is unreasonable to believe that people will stop playing purely based on a login reward. It is a few items among..... hundreds. If DE shuts the game down, or somebody simply stops playing it.. then login rewards are of no concern to us or them anyways.

 

18 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

But that aside, the most worrying thing to me is what happens when the final "big" reward that is currently in the game has been reached. Will they just add more, letting new players see that they will have to log in every single day for several years? The more days are between the players and the reward, the more players will be discouraged, rather than encouraged, which isn't exactly a great thing, especially since all players get a daily reminder of their progress.

Imagine it like a carrot on a stick. If you make the stick longer and longer, the horse will eventually stop caring and not bother trying to reach the carrot any more.

no... you get elevated rewards every 50 logins alternating between 3 day boosters, mods, and weapons so far. Its not like you progress through the system and dont get something..... In fact you get things daily from weapon blueprints, resources, boosters.... all the things to help a player along their journey through the game and the 300 other weapons, 46 frames, and 20something compnions...

You cant even look at it as something you'll never get.... because you will always get that thing no matter what you do as long as you play the game.

4 hours ago, (PS4)bjTBITS said:

Say Player X logs in for two minutes every day just to get his login ticked up and never buys platinum, while Player Y logs in to play for 5 hours but can only play every other day and buys platinum regularly, maybe $5 a week. 300 days pass, and Player X, with 10 hours of playtime, gets twice the rewards of Player Y, with 750 hours of playtime and $210 dollars spent supporting the game.

This example is completely false. While Player X might be twice as far along as player Y in login rewards.... Player Y has an exponential amount more of the game content acquired than Player X. I would argue Player Y is miles ahead of Player X in progression.

If you asked me who id rather bring to sorties? Player Y is a no brainer. The login rewards are meaningless in comparison.

[(XBOX)Ph4nt0mL0rdX]

In the same regard it makes a mockery of the people who made sure they logged in every day to get the rewards we logged in for 300 days to get zenistar you think you shouldn't have to? What does that say about us who have it? Just like all the other things that ceased to be exclusive you want to take this away from us too? 

[(PSN)bjTBITS]

11 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Here, I find your argumentation a bit ambigous. On one side, you want to convince people who are quite happy with with the current reward system into accepting a system which won't offer them something to look forward to and just suck it up "for the greater good". (Majority? Hmm, really sure about that?)

No, I cannot convince people who are happy with the current reward system to move to a new system if the only thing they see as a good reward is an exclusive weapon or mod. Yes, if the system was changed, they would have to just "suck it up". They would still have ways to show that they have been dedicated at logging in. They would still be rewarded for their dedication with weapons and mods before other players are. They would be rewarded with completely login-exclusive things that other players couldn't have. For the most part, in any of the presented solutions, they keep everything that the current system already offers. Just not completely login-exclusive MR points or completely login-exclusive mods. I do not think that the majority of people (in the game, maybe not so much on the forums) would take issue with that.

27 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

On the other side, waiting to get 3-4 weapons/mods whith hundreds of others weapons/mods available is considered gamebreaking and inacceptable?

No, not at all. But in this system, when you wait and finally get those 3-4 weapons/mods, 3-4 more are already in place. Then you wait and get the second set of 3-4 weapons/mods, and another 3-4 have taken their place. It's never-ending. That's the only thing we want to change - installing a reasonable end to an otherwise never-ending system.

32 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Sounds not like an attractive offer for me, sorry. I still would rather opt for continuing the current system. The proposed alternatives sounds too much like the first reward system, which wasn't rewarding at all.

The first system was RNG dependent. The new system would be time dependent. You wait, you get it. Just like the system we have right now. And the rewards could still be weapons or mods, they would just be obtainable by playing the game and having to go through hell and high water to get it. That would still reward "dedication", just a different form of dedication. Nothing would be exclusive, but it would still be virtually exclusive. Something only the best of the best have - whether that be the best at logging in consistently or the best at slaving away at an almost-impossible grind in the game.

42 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Oh, and btw, I beg to differ. Daily logins show indeed dedication.

Yes, logins show dedication, but they are one type of dedication. Others exist - giving helpful feedback, helping other players, reporting bugs, grinding through the game. And with the current system, the people showing any form - or all forms - of dedication other than number of days logged in will always be behind someone who shows fewer other forms of dedication, but is able to open the game more often. 

43 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Our opposing view on this point ensures me that will be nearly impossible to establish common ground here,

Oh. OK, then. Common ground between people of differing opinions on the Internet is pretty much non-existent anyway, lol.

6 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

This example is completely false. While Player X might be twice as far along as player Y in login rewards.... Player Y has an exponential amount more of the game content acquired than Player X. I would argue Player Y is miles ahead of Player X in progression.

If you asked me who id rather bring to sorties? Player Y is a no brainer. The login rewards are meaningless in comparison.

The example isn't false if both Players are veterans, and have already obtained (almost) every non-login-exclusive item in the game.

I would bring Player Y to sorties, too. But I wouldn't be happy to hear that Player Y is missing out on things that players who play the game less than him can get because they happen to be able login more days than him without having to do anything else. Players like Player X are getting rewarded for logging in. And, you know what? If they can do every day, that's completely fine. They can continue to be rewarded. I don't think anyone who wants a change wants the high-login players to stop getting rewards altogether - at the least, I know that's not what I want.

However, not being able to login every day shouldn't shaft Player Y, who has shown an equal or greater amount of effort than Player X, albeit in a different form. I just want Player Y to not have to be permanently behind Player X in login-exclusive rewards. 

13 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ph4nt0mL0rdX said:

In the same regard it makes a mockery of the people who made sure they logged in every day to get the rewards we logged in for 300 days to get zenistar you think you shouldn't have to? What does that say about us who have it? Just like all the other things that ceased to be exclusive you want to take this away from us too? 

Well, I don't want to suggest that players with a lower login count shouldn't have to login 300 days to get Zenistar. That won't change. In an alternative system, Azima, Primed Fury, Zenistar, Primed Vigor, and whatever the login-exclusive primary is going to be will remain completely login-exclusive. Everyone must log in for the same number of days that you did to get those items. I just ask that, after that, that any login-reward weapons or mods be virtual exclusives rather than actual exclusives.

You can still get exclusive cosmetics or exclusive special rewards that can help you with things in the game. There'll just be a few other players who will work their butts off grinding and suffer to get those virtual exclusives. They put in their own effort, you put in your own effort, and you both get the same reward for your efforts in the end. Nobody's losing anything. Login will continue to carry an incentive. It just makes it so that a gate exists to end the perpetuality of the system; a bench where exhausted players can choose to stop and rest but have an obstacle course to cross later, or keep on trucking and have a smooth ride to the finish with less hassle; a checkpoint where no player will have be locked out of login content, but are still given an incentive to raise their login to avoid torturous grind. The system still punishes those who don't login and rewards those who do.

Basically, the only thing this change would implement is one choice: login and get stuff way easier and earlier than everyone else, or don't login and be forced to grind your skeleton to dust (but not be locked out of content) when you could have gotten that item much easier by just logging in. Just one little choice.

[Faulcun]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)bjTBITS said:

The example isn't false if both Players are veterans, and have already obtained (almost) every non-login-exclusive item in the game.

I would bring Player Y to sorties, too. But I wouldn't be happy to hear that Player Y is missing out on things that players who play the game less than him can get because they happen to be able login more days than him without having to do anything else. Players like Player X are getting rewarded for logging in. And, you know what? If they can do every day, that's completely fine. They can continue to be rewarded. I don't think anyone who wants a change wants the high-login players to stop getting rewards altogether - at the least, I know that's not what I want.

However, not being able to login every day shouldn't shaft Player Y, who has shown an equal or greater amount of effort than Player X, albeit in a different form. I just want Player Y to not have to be permanently behind Player X in login-exclusive rewards. 

Well thats the thing though, isnt it. Its very difficult for me to imagine a situation where you absolutely just could not launch a program, log in, and close the program. This whole operation takes 30 seconds. For a veteran, if the login reward was that important, then you could find 30 seconds to do it daily.

Its also not a race. Your Player X isnt even playing the game.... does it even matter at that point?

Also, a large part of complaints from veterans is there is nothing really around for us to do. Perhaps for some veterans, the login rewards are something to look forward to. How do you address your new system for those veterans? Personally I have no need for platinum, boosters, credits, resources, and medallions. Nor do i have an interest in sigils, badges, or other cosmetics. Right now, I have something to look forward to. What happens after everybody has attained the final reward in your new system?

[(PSN)bjTBITS]

1 minute ago, Faulcun said:

Well thats the thing though, isnt it. Its very difficult for me to imagine a situation where you absolutely just could not launch a program, log in, and close the program. This whole operation takes 30 seconds. For a veteran, if the login reward was that important, then you could find 30 seconds to do it daily.

A lot of people have already missed days due to taking a break before it was implemented or not realizing it was going to turn out being as important as it has. And people aren't always in their house or near a computer with Warframe on it. You shouldn't have to challenge the schedule of your life with a game.

The login reward shouldn't BE that important. But by adding exclusive content to it, it is forced to be important.

6 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Its also not a race. Your Player X isnt even playing the game.... does it even matter at that point?

No, it isn't a race. It's a casual walk. However, even just a walk can tire someone out. Especially if it is an infinitely long walk in which you move at the same pace as everybody else and some other people are already placed way in front of you. I ask that a point is placed on the path of this walk in which you are allowed to take a break and choose your pace for the rest of the walk, albeit the longer your break and the slower your decided pace, the harder you make your walk later on. How is it bad to let some people take a break if they want, putting them at a disadvantage later, and rewarding those who keep going? It's a very basic choice. Work = get rewarded, procrastinate = work harder later on or never work at all.

Player X isn't playing the game, and that's why it is not cool to give him exclusive content when he isn't even putting time into the game. I do not see the problem with adding a simple choice of working and being rewarded or waiting and being put at a disadvantage later.

19 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Also, a large part of complaints from veterans is there is nothing really around for us to do. Perhaps for some veterans, the login rewards are something to look forward to. How do you address your new system for those veterans?

The login rewards are always going to be something to look forward to. The login rewards are always going to be some that is there to reward you for getting to that point with an item that will (or perhaps won't, if you don't like it) enhance your gameplay experience and let you have fun. A change to the system will not deprive most veterans of something to look forward to.

22 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Personally I have no need for platinum, boosters, credits, resources, and medallions. Nor do i have an interest in sigils, badges, or other cosmetics. Right now, I have something to look forward to.

If this is the case, you still can have weapons and mods as login rewards, assuming the change went that route. However, there would exist a way in the game for players that are willing to work their brains to mush to obtain those weapons and mods as login rewards. If you got it through login, you worked hard and were rewarded. If you got it by grinding and stressing 10 years of your lifespan away, you worked and were rewarded. I don't see why your view of what an acceptable reward is must be so narrow.

If having an exclusive makes you feel good, then just attribute that feeling to having a weapon much earlier and much easier than anyone who didn't receive it through login will ever get it. Exclusives allow you to say "I have X and you don't, kiss my feet and cry about it," and you will still be able to say that. You can still laugh at all the plebeians, and you always remain above the plebeians, which is what exclusives are all about. The only difference is that instead of you being in the top 1% laughing at the bottom 99%, you will be in the top 2% laughing at the bottom 98%. There's almost no difference at all.

Of course, the above description is vastly hyperbolic, but the principle is the same. In the case of most Tenno, I'd say exclusives are more about "I have X, I am very dedicated to the game. You should work towards reaching my level of dedication, but just know you'll never be quite there, because you'll never get X." I'm not aware of any other thing an exclusive could demonstrate except higher status, being a step above, having that little extra privilege, being that little bit better. Even if you demonstrate it respectfully, that's what it means, which is fine. However, if you don't view exclusives in that manner, then I don't see why the login rewards must be exclusive for you to enjoy them.

It's fine if the reason people oppose this change is because they like exclusives. However, I ask that you just let a few more people into the 1% exclusives club so that the 99% non-exclusives club can be slightly more comfortable and not have something that they can never get rid of hanging over their heads at all times.

43 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

What happens after everybody has attained the final reward in your new system?

There would be no final reward in the alternative system, just like we seem to be on the brink of not having a final reward in this system. Keep rising, keep getting good stuff. Only diff, a few others will be able to do a different type, but equal amount, of work as you and get good stuff too.

 

I'm not really saying anything I haven't said before at this point, and I feel that, like said earlier by Sahansral, it will be nearly impossible to establish common ground. I anticipate that nothing radically different from what has already been said in this thread will be presented in the near future, and I have to admit that I do not believe I have anything to add that will change anyone's opinions. I might continue to reply on this thread, but I most likely won't be saying anything that's gone unsaid, i.e. any further comments I might have will most likely be redundant and useless in progressing the conversation past the point it is currently at.

[Cool3303]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Ph4nt0mL0rdX said:

In the same regard it makes a mockery of the people who made sure they logged in every day to get the rewards we logged in for 300 days to get zenistar you think you shouldn't have to? What does that say about us who have it? Just like all the other things that ceased to be exclusive you want to take this away from us too? 

Thank you for missing the point completely. The OP wants DE to stop locking EVEN MORE content behind the login system... No one wants to take anything away from you.
 

2 hours ago, Faulcun said:

The power gap is in your head. There are plenty of people, myself included, that can outperform the majority of other players without using primed mods. There is not any one single item in the game that makes a player "godlike" just because they have it and somebody else doesnt.

Zenistar is one weapon out of ~300. Three Hundred. 3 HUNDRED! Again... If you are trying to argue that this weapon is required in order to have the best defensive build... we need to be having a different discussion.

I simply asked you to explain how it influences you in any way to get (any further) items from the market/baro instead of  the login screen, therefore I disagree with the reasoning of your argument.

Content is not released at the moment of creation and locked behind a abitrary login count. Its impossible for a player to achieve it, only a login-er can get it.

The power gap is in my head.  There are plenty of people, myself included, that can outperceive the majority of other players in regards to Power Gaps. There is a plethora of items in the game that make a player "godlike" just because they have it and somebody else doesnt.

Zenistar is the only one weapon out of ~300. Three Hundred. 3 HUNDRED! that can do sustained AOE damage while not being equipped.Again... If you are trying to argue that this weapon is not required in order to have the best defensive build... we need to be having a different discussion.

So can we all please stop downplaying arguments.It just bloats the posts
 

I am trying to sum up the FACTUAL arguments in favor of continuing releasing (non-cosmetic) login exclusive content:

-A portion of people do not care about anything else than exclusive Items.

• The login rewards are supposed to encourage logging in again
• That portion of people would be instead be discouraged to login daily without (non-cosmetic) rewards.

-Logging in requires moderately little effort so keeping up with the rewards should not be problematic either.

• There are a number of reasons why people cannot keep up (here the three most reasonable)
• Holidays(you know outside your house, it is a weird idea I know)
• Monthly bandwith limits (which make it impossible to update and consequently login)
• Technical difficulties

The arguments for stopping releasing (non-cosmetic) login exclusive content:

-A portion of people are discouraged by excessive timegates (sundial rifle is supposed to be released at 500days)

• The login rewards are supposed to encourage logging in again
• That portion of people would be discouraged to login daily with (non-cosmetic) rewards.

-A portion of players "only" log-in because they feel forced by the (non-cosmetic) exclusive rewards

• Those players feel not encouraged to play. It takes up bandwith and does nothing for DE

-"Lost" days can never be regained, which creates a gap in the playerbase.

• (non-cosmetic) Exclusive Items make this into a power gap, which are established as bad for any game

-A portion of players will not be able to acquire the items before the end of Warframes lifespan or before they loose interest in the game.

• Unused content is established as bad for any game
• A lot of new and returning players will be unable to ever try the login exlusives, this only grows if even more items are planned beyond the now planned 500 days.

-There is no intrinsic value to (non-cosmetic) login exclusives

• Almost all of Warframes equipment is made easy to acquire, in contrast to Final Fantasy XIII-III where it was made a integral part of the gameplay
• TLDR: There is no reason why Purely Cosmetic rewards would not appeal to more players.

Irrelevant or purely Circumstancial Arguments:

-"It is only 1 Weapon out of over 9000" It is 2 weapons and 1 Primed mod right now and will be more in the future

-"I have nothing else to look forward too" Does not explain why DE could not just release the Weapon to the market or mods to Baro

-"There is no RNG. It took me 1100 hours of in game time to pull "hate" from the stalker." The market has a 100% droprate for Hate (Trading is another avenue)

-"It is not discouraging but instead encouraging"  It is not encouraging but discouraging

Edited December 28, 2016 by Cool3303

[Sahansral]

Riddle me this: if you want an alternative way of getting the big rewards of the login system, just give my an example of such an alternative that ensures that the people to continue caring for the rewards system by not trivalizing their effort AND prevents new players by flooding new/casual players the forums with "PAY TO WIN!!!11" or "THAT GRIND IS RIDICOLOUS!!!111"-Threads!

Take the zenistar for example. What would be your example for getting it? Ducats really? Platinum? Name a price which ensures that Zenistar isn't around everywhere the day it is released and doesn't cause riot in the community.... 

 

[Faulcun]

Yeah, ok. This thread is nothing but circles. My summarized thoughts, and ill be done with this.

Excalibur prime is exclusive. Login rewards are not. Anybody can obtain them. Login rewards have 100% droprate too.

You feel bad because you missed some days, and somebody else got something before you did. I honestly dont care about your perceived "gap". The two weapons and two mods are not stopping anybody from reaching MR23. There is enough content for anybody to reach the same level as anybody else.

There is no power gap.

A greater portion of the community was discouraged with the old system. Thats why it was changed. The system we have now is 100 times better than what we had before. I believe the suggestions made here in this thread would cause this current system to become similar to the old system and eventually meaningless  to a large portion of the playerbase again.

The data limits on somebody's connection is a valid excuse to not log in. However, I do believe that would be a very small percentage of players. Certainly not enough to warrant a change in the system.

I dont see any suggestions that wouldnt end up making things worse. Sorry your "feels" are hurt, but I think this is something you are probably just going to have to deal with.

[(PSN)bjTBITS]

2 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Riddle me this: if you want an alternative way of getting the big rewards of the login system, just give my an example of such an alternative that ensures that the people to continue caring for the rewards system by not trivalizing their effort AND prevents new players by flooding new/casual players the forums with "PAY TO WIN!!!11" or "THAT GRIND IS RIDICOLOUS!!!111"-Threads!

Take the zenistar for example. What would be your example for getting it? Ducats really? Platinum? Name a price which ensures that Zenistar isn't around everywhere the day it is released and doesn't cause riot in the community.... 

 

There is no way. When someone makes a thread like that, all someone has to say is "you can get it easily as a login reward" and let the thread close. It's also not pay to win because login rewards aren't things that are purchasable, so if a thread like that was posted, the user's ignorance would be at fault, not the system. "Login in to win", maybe, but that's a flaw that's present in both systems. It's bound to receive hate, whether we change the system or not. Anybody who would complain about having to login 1,000 days for an item in this system would most likely do the same in the other. As such, forum topics are of little importance in this discussion because people will post the same complaints either way.

Zenistar would still only be obtained by logging in 300 days. I don't want any change to the current vision for login rewards, which is appears to go up to 500 days. However, I ask that completely login-exclusive weapons and mods stop after those 500 days and all rewards after that become almost anything other than completely login-exclusive weapons and mods. Nothing that would be changed would cause community riot if the current system doesn't cause community riot, because the two systems are pretty much the same overall.

 

[Sahansral]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)bjTBITS said:

There is no way. When someone makes a thread like that, all someone has to say is "you can get it easily as a login reward" and let the thread close. It's also not pay to win because login rewards aren't things that are purchasable, so if a thread like that was posted, the user's ignorance would be at fault, not the system. "Login in to win", maybe, but that's a flaw that's present in both systems. It's bound to receive hate, whether we change the system or not. Anybody who would complain about having to login 1,000 days for an item in this system would most likely do the same in the other. As such, forum topics are of little importance in this discussion because people will post the same complaints either way.

Zenistar would still only be obtained by logging in 300 days. I don't want any change to the current vision for login rewards, which is appears to go up to 500 days. However, I ask that completely login-exclusive weapons and mods stop after those 500 days and all rewards after that become almost anything other than completely login-exclusive weapons and mods. Nothing that would be changed would cause community riot if the current system doesn't cause community riot, because the two systems are pretty much the same overall.

 

Ok, sorry, I'm didn't made my question clear by choosing an an existing reward while you mentioned several times, that you don't want those rewards changed, my mistake. Let me paraphrase it: What is an example of an reward "almost anything other than completely login-exclusive weapons and mods" that ensures that players stay intrested in the system beyond 500 days? Several examples have been mentioned in the thread, but people who reached that limit won't be bothered by cosmetics, arcanes, ducats or tokens...

I can't think of an reward which would keep me caring for the system and be acceptable for newer/casual players...

Edited December 28, 2016 by Sahansral

[(PSN)bjTBITS]

1 minute ago, Sahansral said:

Ok, sorry, I'm didn't made my question clear by choosing an an existing reward while you mentioned several times, that you don't want those rewards changed, my mistake. Let me paraphrase it: What is an example of an reward "almost anything other than completely login-exclusive weapons and mods" that ensures that players keep intrested in the system beyond 500 days? Several examples have been mentioned in the thread, but people who reached that limit won't be bothered by cosmetics, arcanes, ducats or tokens...

I can't think of an reward which would keep me caring for the system and be acceptable by newer/casual players...

Virtually exclusive weapons and mods? You would pick a path - easy-mode login or hard-mode grind. Either way, only a few players are getting it. The way I see it, if a new player takes issue with the current system, they'll have to either sit down and continue to take issue with it or complain. In the proposed system, they'll have to sit down and continue to take issue with it, grind, or complain.

[Sahansral]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)bjTBITS said:

Virtually exclusive weapons and mods? You would pick a path - easy-mode login or hard-mode grind. Either way, only a few players are getting it. The way I see it, if a new player takes issue with the current system, they'll have to either sit down and continue to take issue with it or complain. In the proposed system, they'll have to sit down and continue to take issue with it, grind, or complain.

Ok, but give us an example. The reward for the 600th day may be an exclusive rifle. Name the grind! How much of it? What is the equivalent of login for 600 days. Where's the magic spot, that ensures that only a few players will get it.   Name numbers!

Edited December 28, 2016 by Sahansral

[Drasiel]

5 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

 -"There is no RNG. It took me 1100 hours of in game time to pull "hate" from the stalker." The market has a 100% droprate for Hate (Trading is another avenue)

-"It is not discouraging but instead encouraging"  It is not encouraging but discouraging

Just need to point out you cannot trade any of the assassins weapons or blueprints. 

[(PSN)bjTBITS]

Just now, Sahansral said:

Ok, but give us an example. The reward for the 600th day may be an exclusive rifle. Name the grind! How much of it? Name numbers!

I don't know, to be honest. I have no exact example. If I were to just make up an example on the fly... if the Hema was a login reward, and it's research was the grind, I'd say every player's individual grind would be about equivalent to a Moon Clan's Hema research costs - 100x. So, to get the login-reward rifle, one player would have to login 600 days or get 5,000 * 100 Mutagen Samples, which is 500,000. Let's say 40 waves of ODD takes ~40 minutes and rewards 1,500 Mutagen Samples, unboosted.

500,000 required samples / 1,500 samples per play = ~333 plays of defense. 333 plays * 40 minutes per play = 13,320 minutes of play. 13,320 / 60 = 222 hours of ingame time dedicated solely to getting one of the resources costs for the item. The player would also have to dedicate a bunch of ingame hours solely towards obtaining 1,000,000 Plastids, 4,500,000 Nano Spores, 50,000 Neurodes, and 500,000 Credits. Some of these costs will be amassed just playing the game regularly, but for the most part, if you want to get the item without waiting 600 days, you'll have to put in 230+ ingame hours solely towards obtaining it. For many players, that is actually a significant fraction of their career. Sure, they'll be able to get it in less than 600 days, but they'll also have to do very hard work for that to be possible. 

And, considering nobody can play 24 hours a day every day, it'll be even longer than it seems. If a player plays 6 hours a day, they'll have to dedicate ~39 days of their time in the game solely towards obtaining that item. If they want to curb that time by using boosters, they'll have to spend 240 plat (~$15) to get one 7-day resource booster, one 7-day drop chance booster, one 3-day resource booster, and one 3-day drop chance booster to raise their Mutagen-per-play income to 6,000 (assuming both booster types roughly double your resource income) to lower their required playtime to  ~10 days.

38 straight days of playing one mission type for 6 hours or $15 and 10 days straight of playing one mission type for 6 hours in order to receive one weapon. Someone willing to do that for a weapon deserves it. And most likely, even if someone put up their dukes and said they'll take on the grind, it is unrealistic to expect that they will be able to dedicate all of their playtime every day for 10 days straight without going insane, which will up the time required even more. Most players will look at the grind and just reject it (like many are doing towards the Hema), and get it through login. So there will still be only a few players who have the item at the time it is obtainable.

[Sahansral]

1 hour ago, (PS4)bjTBITS said:

I don't know, to be honest. I have no exact example. If I were to just make up an example on the fly... if the Hema was a login reward, and it's research was the grind, I'd say every player's individual grind would be about equivalent to a Moon Clan's Hema research costs - 100x. So, to get the login-reward rifle, one player would have to login 600 days or get 5,000 * 100 Mutagen Samples, which is 500,000. Let's say 40 waves of ODD takes ~40 minutes and rewards 1,500 Mutagen Samples, unboosted.

500,000 required samples / 1,500 samples per play = ~333 plays of defense. 333 plays * 40 minutes per play = 13,320 minutes of play. 13,320 / 60 = 222 hours of ingame time dedicated solely to getting one of the resources costs for the item. The player would also have to dedicate a bunch of ingame hours solely towards obtaining 1,000,000 Plastids, 4,500,000 Nano Spores, 50,000 Neurodes, and 500,000 Credits. Some of these costs will be amassed just playing the game regularly, but for the most part, if you want to get the item without waiting 600 days, you'll have to put in 230+ ingame hours solely towards obtaining it. For many players, that is actually a significant fraction of their career. Sure, they'll be able to get it in less than 600 days, but they'll also have to do very hard work for that to be possible. 

And, considering nobody can play 24 hours a day every day, it'll be even longer than it seems. If a player plays 6 hours a day, they'll have to dedicate ~39 days of their time in the game solely towards obtaining that item. If they want to curb that time by using boosters, they'll have to spend 240 plat (~$15) to get one 7-day resource booster, one 7-day drop chance booster, one 3-day resource booster, and one 3-day drop chance booster to raise their Mutagen-per-play income to 6,000 (assuming both booster types roughly double your resource income) to lower their required playtime to  ~10 days.

38 straight days of playing one mission type for 6 hours or $15 and 10 days straight of playing one mission type for 6 hours in order to receive one weapon. Someone willing to do that for a weapon deserves it. And most likely, even if someone put up their dukes and said they'll take on the grind, it is unrealistic to expect that they will be able to dedicate all of their playtime every day for 10 days straight without going insane, which will up the time required even more. Most players will look at the grind and just reject it (like many are doing towards the Hema), and get it through login. So there will still be only a few players who have the item at the time it is obtainable.

You know that many players would turn these massive requirements against DE and get vocal about in the forums. Not sure, if you wouldn't open far bigger cans of worms than the one you want to close.

Anyway, I salute you for giving a concrete example. Yes, personally I would accept that dimension of a grind wall as an alternative way - given that it can't be trivialized by boosters or ressource drop weekends. You can't buy login days, why should you speed up the grind when we all want to reward dedication, right?

[Cool3303]

4 hours ago, Sahansral said:

 people who reached that limit won't be bothered by cosmetics, arcanes, ducats or tokens...

This is a very baseless assumption, there is no reason why they wouldnt be interested.
I agree that sigils are a bit little but Syandanas, Warframe skins (Something like the immortal skins) or Weapon skins would motivate me to consider loging in.

And just as a reminder login days have no correlation to time played, or amount of content played (only a small part of the playerbase plays Raids or has enough plat to get all arcanes)

3 hours ago, Sahansral said:

Name the grind! How much of it? What is the equivalent of login for 600 days. Where's the magic spot, that ensures that only a few players will get it.   Name numbers!

Since someone else mentioned it takes 30 seconds to login I guess that would be 5hours of time grinding.
I originally did not consider the obsession with exclusivity when I made my suggestion (I do understand the notion but I can't condone applying it)

So here is what I would prefer:
Either stop unique rewards completely OR
Players that are behind by 1 or more milestones (50 days) can craft the next for a moderate cost:

• ~4 hours of grinding
• Heavy to circumvent costs (for example 30 Argon, since it also fits thematically as "time-decaying" ressource)
• However the milestone will have a unskippable crafting time of 30 days

What does this mean?

Everyone stays 30 days behind once he has fallen behind.

• A month is a very workable timeframe. It is a easily agreeable metric for a medium amount of time.
• 30 Days  is a reasonable time to maximise the new weapon and play it till it becomes stale
• New players time to catchup would be shortened to a year. (Further cuts to earlier milestones could maintain this timeframe)

What is the problem with this?

Once people are 30 days behind they can hardly fall behind much further.This makes the milestones utterly pointless for them.

However this does not excarbate the current issues of the login system (lack of value of non milestone rewards for vets) while shrinking the catchup to a workable number.

Why then do it in this way?

Because it is the only way I see to compromise with people that are convinced that logins carry value while arguing it takes no effort to do them.

The only way to compromise with people that can only experience a unique new weapon when it is released as login exclusive rather than as update content.

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Cool3303