Simulor Nerf

[Tora.Prime]

Simulor is fine

Hall of mirror should be nerf

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

On 31/12/2016 at 4:22 PM, Gruumzh said:

Joke's on you, they don't die :D

Right back at you, as many I've seen, seem to go down and beg.😜

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

On 31/12/2016 at 4:43 PM, (PS4)zero1872001 said:

People with your mentality, breeds more toxicity.
Boohoo they are using something I dont like. Well gee imma get back at them by letting them die.

People with my mentality? You want to start attacking directly with mentality, you do realise at the end I do end up reviving them as it gets boring and they leave afterwards.

[(PSN)Flatulent_Draco]

Ok seriously... ? Rather than nerf why not buff something else to be a competitive option to (synoid) simulor huh?

[(PSN)zero1872001]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Deception_Pharo said:

People with my mentality? You want to start attacking directly with mentality, you do realise at the end I do end up reviving them as it gets boring and they leave afterwards.

Lets see.. Yes. I'm talking about your mentality. As defined in the dictionary as..
" the characteristic attitude of mind or way of thinking of a person or group. "

You said

On 12/30/2016 at 8:14 AM, (PS4)Deception_Pharo said:

Yes, personally when I see a simulor player, I don't tend to revive them.

That seems to fit the definition given above. So. My previous statement stands. That kind of mentality gives birth to more, and more. I'm proof of that with what all Else I said that you didnt focus on in your reply.

Keep being Toxic, and you'll only breed more Toxin. As for me? Due unto others. Peace out.

Edit: There is nothing there about you reviving them, seems like you're reneging on your earlier statement that I quoted there.

Edited January 5, 2017 by (PS4)zero1872001

[Kevrex97]

All they need to do is make the simulor's projectile coming from Mirage's HoM not connect with the actual projectile.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

On 12/23/2016 at 8:38 AM, KyoBladezen said:

I mean, you have to admit, it's kinda annoying to get stuck with a synsim mirage when you're on public, trying out a new weapon, new frame, mod setup, or riven. 

Joins a PUG and then complains about how people play. OK kid.

[Bryntwulf]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

Joins a PUG and then complains about how people play. OK kid.

Woah, chill. 

This entire game is supposed to be balanced around public matches. It only makes sense that anything that damages the experience for other players would get a nerf in order to make it more fun for everyone. I'm not complaining about how others play, but rather pointing out that they Synoid Simulor, especially in conjunction with Mirage, is one of the biggest kill stealers in the game. No one who is playing the game for anything other than just farming enjoys that sort of thing. 

Also, stop calling people "kid". It just makes you look like a presumptuous twit. 

[Vermitore]

21 minutes ago, KyoBladezen said:

Woah, chill. 

This entire game is supposed to be balanced around public matches. It only makes sense that anything that damages the experience for other players would get a nerf in order to make it more fun for everyone. I'm not complaining about how others play, but rather pointing out that they Synoid Simulor, especially in conjunction with Mirage, is one of the biggest kill stealers in the game. No one who is playing the game for anything other than just farming enjoys that sort of thing. 

Also, stop calling people "kid". It just makes you look like a presumptuous twit. 

Well, for one thing, they could normalise the affinity for non-afk frames, so that stealing all the kills would yield no increased benefit, other than a faster clear.  I'd rather they normalised the benefits than nerfed a weapon that performs well at being useful to the squad in the early to mid game, which it was tuned for. Also, agree on the 'kid' thing. It is really uncouth and not fitting for intellectual discourse.

[Bryntwulf]

12 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Well, for one thing, they could normalise the affinity for non-afk frames, so that stealing all the kills would yield no increased benefit, other than a faster clear.  I'd rather they normalised the benefits than nerfed a weapon that performs well at being useful to the squad in the early to mid game, which it was tuned for. Also, agree on the 'kid' thing. It is really uncouth and not fitting for intellectual discourse.

There is one problem with that though, and that's two of our newest frames. They often absolutely require that there be enemies available for them. For Inaros, he needs them so he can heal after building his Scarab Armor, and Nidus is in constant need of enemies so that he can create stacks. Unfortunately, it's rare to find a player, let alone someone with synsim Mirage, who would hold their fire on an enemy blinded or devoured by Inaros, or caught in Nidus' Larva. I would imagine that this will also be true for the upcoming Bardframe. And this issue isnt exclusive to quick missions either. As either of the mentioned frames, I've had to keep far away from other players in order to get my needed kills, as if I stayed with the group, all enemies would be taken by one of the popular meta combos. 

[Vermitore]

4 minutes ago, KyoBladezen said:

There is one problem with that though, and that's two of our newest frames. They often absolutely require that there be enemies available for them. For Inaros, he needs them so he can heal after building his Scarab Armor, and Nidus is in constant need of enemies so that he can create stacks. Unfortunately, it's rare to find a player, let alone someone with synsim Mirage, who would hold their fire on an enemy blinded or devoured by Inaros, or caught in Nidus' Larva. I would imagine that this will also be true for the upcoming Bardframe. And this issue isnt exclusive to quick missions either. As either of the mentioned frames, I've had to keep far away from other players in order to get my needed kills, as if I stayed with the group, all enemies would be taken by one of the popular meta combos. 

Can't say I disagree with you - what you described is a problem, or a symptom. I think the real problem is, however, that the game uses overwhelmingly the paradigm of hordes of weak enemies. When was the last time you saw conventional, strong single target weapons or spells outperform comparable-placed aoe weapons. I imagine it was a good long while ago. I mean, this isn't even really a problem, just a design choice, but it is also the source of the issue you have outlined. A Simulor Mirage would never shine if enemies were much less numerous and proportionately stronger. It would also bring to the fore frames and weapons which have strong single target output and it would accentuate skillful gunplay and cover mechanics. It would also allow CC to be nerfed on the player end, without creating an insurmountable obstacle to gameplay through unstoppable enemy onslaught that simply is overwhelming. It could be something like Rathuum, except properly implemented and not simply used to gate Saryn and Chroma acquisition for no good reason.

I mean, all of the above is a matter of preference - I would prefer less of an aoe focus because I like accurate, single-target weapons, but I guess others might prefer the contrary.

[Bryntwulf]

19 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Can't say I disagree with you - what you described is a problem, or a symptom. I think the real problem is, however, that the game uses overwhelmingly the paradigm of hordes of weak enemies. When was the last time you saw conventional, strong single target weapons or spells outperform comparable-placed aoe weapons. I imagine it was a good long while ago. I mean, this isn't even really a problem, just a design choice, but it is also the source of the issue you have outlined. A Simulor Mirage would never shine if enemies were much less numerous and proportionately stronger. It would also bring to the fore frames and weapons which have strong single target output and it would accentuate skillful gunplay and cover mechanics. It would also allow CC to be nerfed on the player end, without creating an insurmountable obstacle to gameplay through unstoppable enemy onslaught that simply is overwhelming. It could be something like Rathuum, except properly implemented and not simply used to gate Saryn and Chroma acquisition for no good reason.

I mean, all of the above is a matter of preference - I would prefer less of an aoe focus because I like accurate, single-target weapons, but I guess others might prefer the contrary.

I feel the same way when it comes to the treatment of single-target weapons and attacks. I mean, take Sniper rifles and launcher weapons for example: When was the last time you saw someone use one, excluding the tonkor or penta, to any good effect in a level 40 mission or higher? The Opticor and Miter are both supposed to be these absurdly powerful weapons that will take down any threat, but If I take an Opticor to Heiracron, not even my headshot crits will deal decent damage by the end of it. Meanwhile, the Synoid Simulor and Telos Boltace will still be doing just fine. 

[Bryntwulf]

15 hours ago, (PS4)Benjamin_Draco said:

Ok seriously... ? Rather than nerf why not buff something else to be a competitive option to (synoid) simulor huh?

Ben, that's just going to cause more power creep. Nerfs are important to maintaining game balance. 

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

10 hours ago, KyoBladezen said:

Woah, chill. 

This entire game is supposed to be balanced around public matches. It only makes sense that anything that damages the experience for other players would get a nerf in order to make it more fun for everyone. I'm not complaining about how others play, but rather pointing out that they Synoid Simulor, especially in conjunction with Mirage, is one of the biggest kill stealers in the game. No one who is playing the game for anything other than just farming enjoys that sort of thing. 

Also, stop calling people "kid". It just makes you look like a presumptuous twit. 

OK kid. Mirage plus any AoE weapon is that way so I guess all weapons that do any splash damage need a nerf? Also kill stealer? Wow go back to CoD. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by (XB1)Demon Intellect

[Methanoid]

On 02/01/2017 at 5:27 AM, (PS4)Kaishinoske said:

Its like the Synoid Gammacor all over again. You've destroyed one beautiful thing let us have this.

yeah sure, just give ALL other aoe weapons like torid, ogris and more an 11m aoe range, no self dmg etc and its all good, then everyone can run exterminates/etc by just sprinting from start to finish while just unloading into the floor and not aiming at any enemys, then everyone is happy, also increase the volume/pitch of those other weapons to make them equally as annoying sounding.

[(PSN)ThatPersonInMars]

It doest need a nerf but some changes, the amount of vortex/stacks you can create should be limited for 4, and mirage's 4 copies should NOT be able to create vortex/stack.

[Tyrian3k]

14 hours ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

OK kid. Mirage plus any AoE weapon is that way so I guess all weapons that do any splash damage need a nerf? Also kill stealer? Wow go back to CoD. 

All of the ones that allow you to play in braindead-mode do indeed need tweaks.

[Vermitore]

21 minutes ago, Tyrian3k said:

All of the ones that allow you to play in braindead-mode do indeed need tweaks.

What is braindead-mode though, and how far does it extend?

I mean, for instance, the Amprex and the Ignis are inherently braindead - it is just their design. AoE with a few exceptions is a braindead paradigm. AoE weapons are, for the most part, braindead if you consider the invest to returns ratio. AoE frames too. How far are we willing to go to encourage skillful gameplay? Mind you, I am not against going a fair distance in striving for that, but is everyone else up for it? Is DE up for it? I would be happy to nerf AoE to the ground, to the point where it is only viable as part of specialist strategies, such as Vortex Vauban, etc. The game itself would have to change to accommodate that fact, though.

[Tyrian3k]

47 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

What is braindead-mode though, and how far does it extend?

I mean, for instance, the Amprex and the Ignis are inherently braindead - it is just their design. AoE with a few exceptions is a braindead paradigm. AoE weapons are, for the most part, braindead if you consider the invest to returns ratio. AoE frames too. How far are we willing to go to encourage skillful gameplay? Mind you, I am not against going a fair distance in striving for that, but is everyone else up for it? Is DE up for it? I would be happy to nerf AoE to the ground, to the point where it is only viable as part of specialist strategies, such as Vortex Vauban, etc. The game itself would have to change to accommodate that fact, though.

I would keep it to weapons for now, since I don't see many frames that go braindead mode on their own.

AoE weapons started out with a hefty drawback in Warframe, which was too much of a drawback to be reasonably used outside of defense missions. Then weapons like the Tonkor and Simulor came along, boasting all the benefits with absolutely no drawbacks, which is equally bad.

The instakill on self damage by the Ogris, Penta etc. goes too far when it comes to drawbacks, though, so the best way to balance these weapons is to give them all a "reasonable" drawback that doesn't result in instant death on a minor slip-up.

Self damage should still be a thing, albeit lowered to a non-suicidal level, but I think it might be a good idea if the player would receive a proc from the innate element of the weapon in question upon hitting themselves.

These kinds of punishments can preserve a pentalty for hitting yourself and put the player into a bad spot without instagibbing them all the time.

The only one that wouldn't be covered by this is the Ignis, but I never really used the Ignis myself after its buff, so I don't know what could or should be done to it.

[Vermitore]

12 minutes ago, Tyrian3k said:

I would keep it to weapons for now, since I don't see many frames that go braindead mode on their own.

AoE weapons started out with a hefty drawback in Warframe, which was too much of a drawback to be reasonably used outside of defense missions. Then weapons like the Tonkor and Simulor came along, boasting all the benefits with absolutely no drawbacks, which is equally bad.

The instakill on self damage by the Ogris, Penta etc. goes too far when it comes to drawbacks, though, so the best way to balance these weapons is to give them all a "reasonable" drawback that doesn't result in instant death on a minor slip-up.

Self damage should still be a thing, albeit lowered to a non-suicidal level, but I think it might be a good idea if the player would receive a proc from the innate element of the weapon in question upon hitting themselves.

These kinds of punishments can preserve a pentalty for hitting yourself and put the player into a bad spot without instagibbing them all the time.

The only one that wouldn't be covered by this is the Ignis, but I never really used the Ignis myself after its buff, so I don't know what could or should be done to it.

Yeah, that's a good solution, though I would prefer to opt for a significant buff to the enemies - a statistical and AI buff - and a proportionate reduction in their numbers. It would be kind of a blanket nerf to AoE weapons. It is less heavy-handed than a straight-up penalty, albeit much more difficult to implement in terms of global balance. On the other hand, it would mean that you'd have to start watching single-target powerhouses and melee very closely, just as DE are at present having to pay careful attention to AoE weapons which over-achieve. That said, single-target damage is more straightforward in that dps is more easily calculated and scenarios are much more uniform in real, organic use. But then the merits of one system over the other in the context is not the topic of this discussion, strictly speaking, so I'll end my digression here.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

10 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

All of the ones that allow you to play in braindead-mode do indeed need tweaks.

So you'd have to nerf mirage, who without an aoe weapon is perfectly balanced, so you'd be punishing people who don't run synsim or else nerf all aoe weapons. So you'd be punishing one group to fix a single issue. It isn't like Mesa where it was only the frame that needed to be changed.

[Tyrian3k]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

So you'd have to nerf mirage, who without an aoe weapon is perfectly balanced, so you'd be punishing people who don't run synsim or else nerf all aoe weapons. So you'd be punishing one group to fix a single issue. It isn't like Mesa where it was only the frame that needed to be changed.

Yes! The only way to fix this problem is obviously a straight nerf! /sarcasm

Why do people like Mirage as she is? All I can see is a one trick pony that causes problems in balance and performance left and right. What she needs is a rework of her abilities, not a nerf.

And as much as you may hate it, AoE weapons can't stay the way they currently are. You can't have room-clearing firepower and not add a catch to it that requires people to think about their shots. The result is what we currently see: people just spamming their AoE weapons nonstop while running through the level.

[KingNoobsta]

On 12/27/2016 at 4:16 PM, radastir said:

This.

You can always outdamage Simulor Mirages and Embers. You just have to learn your tile sets and to master "Movement 2.0".

In the last run I got "only" 49% damage because I had the door bug (DE please fix this first and foremost! It happens really often again since the last patch...). You will always be outdamaged by faster players, regardless of what will be nerfed next. There will always be a new "killer combo" people want to be nerfed. That is why it is called the "nerf train".

*Big Beat on*
Honestly people / This is a game / Don't nerf Simulors / Give them users a brain.
*Big Beat off*
 

 

well thats an awesome post there my friend but the problem here on warframe is everyone wants it easy. No effort just nerf it like Ash/Loki, they have even started comparing warframe abilities. They want Loki to be equal to Ash  And even worse is their arguments "Make it acceptable"  - But the problem lies within the PlayerBase asking for baseless nerfs than the weapon or the warframe. Finding an easy way out is what everyone is doing.

You on the other hand have given a fitting response to a 3x Mirage + Synoid. But I m sure someone will come up with another excuse. 

[radastir]

36 minutes ago, KingNoobsta said:

 But I m sure someone will come up with another excuse. 

Schopenhauer has even written a book about it: "Eristic Dialectic".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right

Edited January 6, 2017 by radastir

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

1 hour ago, Tyrian3k said:

Yes! The only way to fix this problem is obviously a straight nerf! /sarcasm

Why do people like Mirage as she is? All I can see is a one trick pony that causes problems in balance and performance left and right. What she needs is a rework of her abilities, not a nerf.

And as much as you may hate it, AoE weapons can't stay the way they currently are. You can't have room-clearing firepower and not add a catch to it that requires people to think about their shots. The result is what we currently see: people just spamming their AoE weapons nonstop while running through the level.

Actually all of her abilities aside from sleight of hand are fine. So I guess excalibur needs another rework too because people only use exalted blade and blind, loki needs a rework because all he does is invis and disarm. So nothing you have suggested would be a good idea.