HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[(PSN)Silverback73]

5 minutes ago, toafarmer said:

Man, I'm impressed with all the work the 2 or 3 whiteknights are putting into answering all the posts of the other dozens of people. Your efforts won't change anyone's mind nor the fact that the cost is obviously broken, but hey...

 

Curious...am I in that classification?

[iDEBz]

7 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Yes I'm farming efficiently, just as you should and yes dead large clans won't be able to complete it.

I was standing afk on my ship for past 2 hours and got 0 mutagen samples, I can provide screen aswell ! That's Zero samples after 2 hours online, crazy !!!

Yet any other resource can be gained rather passively. No reason why mutagen should be any different and cause another meta to arise to get around it. Meta's are bad and are only a symptom of a problem. Enemy armor scaling and crazy health pool = everyone has to use corrosive projection/min max their gear, drop rate of a resource too low = pilfering swarm hydroid and nekros.

The simple fact that people have to co ordinate and build around maximizing their gain to get what is a reasonable amount is why mutagen is a problem not the shear quantity required. For example for a clan of my size a mountain i (1 out of possible 300) could contribute 20000 of the mutagen equivalent of 150000. 13% of it when i have never specifically targeted detonite or fieldron rather just gained it through playing the game normally.

 

[egregiousRac]

50 minutes ago, TheZathel said:

Thank you!

I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced though... on several points. Two (well, one, in two aspects) I can properly formulate offhand.

First, I might be nitpicking here, but technically "unattainable" here is just a matter of perception of people who are used to instant gratification. Which seemed to be the name of the game generally, excluding singular cases like Vauban Prime or Hema. From publisher and developer perspective, such things are not really beneficial overall. They want things to take time and effort to obtain, and not only to push plat-based sales. Which brings me to the second point...

Expectations. Why should a social clan, whose players put in, say, tenth of time and effort (combined - lets say maybe half the time but they don't focus on optimal farming compositions, for example) what a hardcore dedicated clan puts in should obtain new content in comparably similar time frame? Why do they feel entitled to access to entirely optional weapon on the same basis? 5k base mutagen sample cost is not an insurmountable obstacle. It's not trying to obtain an item that does not drop in the game anymore, to give a slightly exaggerated example. It requires base minimum of coordination and community effort. Doing an ODD or ODS run every other day (with a nekros and hydroid) for half an hour would quickly add up in the long run. The problem is that for some, "long run" is a dealbreaker... but they still want the shiny.

Well, unless you think playing for an hour three times a week is hardcore. I'm not sure we can compromise on this point though.

My two-person clan finished the funding tonight. We started running ODS/ODD last week. It went exactly as you described. A 30minute run or a 25 wave defence every few nights for a week and a half and it was done. No pain, no suffering.

In a max size clan, that might be more painful. If you can get 50 people involved however (that's only 5% of your population!), it's not much worse than I described. At that point you can run Hydroid, Nekros, and Speed Nova and slap it out pretty quick.

[ChuckMaverick]

25 minutes ago, TheZathel said:

Thank you!

I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced though... on several points. Two (well, one, in two aspects) I can properly formulate offhand.

First, I might be nitpicking here, but technically "unattainable" here is just a matter of perception of people who are used to instant gratification. Which seemed to be the name of the game generally, excluding singular cases like Vauban Prime or Hema. From publisher and developer perspective, such things are not really beneficial overall. They want things to take time and effort to obtain, and not only to push plat-based sales.

Whether something is perceived as 'unattainable' is obviously subjective, and there clearly are a group of people who have been raised on a diet of instant gratification, but I would argue that a developer should want most goals in their game to be deemed reasonable by the vast majority of players.

There's also nothing inherently wrong with putting extremely challenging goals in your game, that possibly only a fraction of players will ever achieve, but those should be framed as such and not cause players who choose not to pursue them to feel that they are unfairly missing out.

Unfortunately the Hema doesn't fall comfortably into either of those categories.

I would argue that for a 'normal' goal the Hema feels too arduous, the level of effort required is exceptional when compared to similar weapons, with no apparent justification for the additional time investment.

If DE intended the Hema as a 'challenging' goal, then that fact should have been highlighted at its introduction, but there was no such communication. Additionally the fact that the Hema contributes to mastery rank (however significantly) and could possibly gate future clan research means that players who don't have it will feel as though they are missing out.

25 minutes ago, TheZathel said:

Which brings me to the second point...

Expectations. Why should a social clan, whose players put in, say, tenth of time and effort (combined - lets say maybe half the time but they don't focus on optimal farming compositions, for example) what a hardcore dedicated clan puts in should obtain new content in comparably similar time frame? Why do they feel entitled to access to entirely optional weapon on the same basis? 5k base mutagen sample cost is not an insurmountable obstacle. It's not trying to obtain an item that does not drop in the game anymore, to give a slightly exaggerated example. It requires base minimum of coordination and community effort. Doing an ODD or ODS run every other day (with a nekros and hydroid) for half an hour would quickly add up in the long run. The problem is that for some, "long run" is a dealbreaker... but they still want the shiny.

Well, unless you think playing for an hour three times a week is hardcore. I'm not sure we can compromise on this point though.

There are a lot of factors that contribute to this point, and individual effort or casual/hardcore classification is only one of them.

The very nature of clan tiers and research multipliers means that there will always be inequity, even between clans whose members are equally active and committed to clan research. An active 31 member clan will have to put in three times the effort of an active 30 member clan, for example. This alone makes clan research requirements a bad choice for injecting 'friction' into the pay/play balance, build requirements would be a much better way.

I'd also argue that, especially in a game like Warframe which uses a much more horizontal rather than vertical model, the differentiation between casual and hardcore should be in the amount of things you can do simultaneously instead of the time it takes to do each individual thing.

As to what constitutes 'hardcore', well that is a very subjective measure. I often refer to myself as a casual, and compared to some I certainly am, but I think the majority of Warframe players would probably view the amount of time I play as hardcore.

But to introduce some objective facts, the SteamSpy page for Warframe currently shows the median play time over the last two weeks as three hours and fifteen minutes. The "playing for an hour three times a week" you mention is twice the total play time of the average Warframe player, if they did absolutely nothing else but grind mutagen samples for the Hema.

[Omnipower]

7 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

-snip-

I agree with you, i thank you for how you typed it out and i love ya for actually using some statistical data. BUT at this point our words are on deaf ears(though i havent really been voicing mine mainly cause i gave up on hema ITS NOT WORTH IT plat or farm wise) DE clearly stated they wont change anything and it bugs a good amount of us but like another tenno from a far away thread had said "im just gonna ignore it and move on with my life" or try my best like i did with space aids before the cure.

[Naskoni]

10 minutes ago, egregiousRac said:

My two-person clan finished the funding tonight. We started running ODS/ODD last week. It went exactly as you described. A 30minute run or a 25 wave defence every few nights for a week and a half and it was done. No pain, no suffering.

In a max size clan, that might be more painful. If you can get 50 people involved however (that's only 5% of your population!), it's not much worse than I described. At that point you can run Hydroid, Nekros, and Speed Nova and slap it out pretty quick.

Problems learning that hard, hard math at school, eh? 50 people in a max sized clan (a moon clan) contributing for the Hema research only would need to input the measly amount of 10 000 mutagen samples EACH. That's roughly TWICE what solo ghost clans need - that's like what, 50-60 hours of ODD farming for each of them? Or if they decide to take it easy it's one hour of farming each week for a YEAR. Or four hours of farming each week for three MONTHS. Totally not painful in any way, all you have to do is find a way to shut down your brain functions while you're at it and pretend you're actually having fun "playing" this game, right?

[TheZathel]

2 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

If DE intended the Hema as a 'challenging' goal, then that fact should have been highlighted at its introduction, but there was no such communication. Additionally the fact that the Hema contributes to mastery rank (however significantly) and could possibly gate future clan research means that players who don't have it will feel as though they are missing out.

This is a good point, I can get behind that.

But...

3 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Whether something is perceived as 'unattainable' is obviously subjective, and there clearly are a group of people who have been raised on a diet of instant gratification, but I would argue that a developer should want most goals in their game to be deemed reasonable by the vast majority of players.

Food for thought - not an implication, statement of fact or even informed opinion. consider this: maybe you have a feeling that majority of players deem current costs as not reasonable because you inserted yourself into an environment full of people who think just that? Even if they do not in any way represent majority? It's incredibly easy to create a echo chamber full of vocal minority.

And cherry on top of that food for thought? DE has the data. Big scale, game-wide data. They looked at it and firmly said "This is fine". Maybe that also suggests something?

As said, and I repeat again, since apparently people have problems with interpreting my posts, this is just food for thought.

6 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

This alone makes clan research requirements a bad choice for injecting 'friction' into the pay/play balance, build requirements would be a much better way.

They did just that with Vauban Prime, did a second pass after some time, cut Oxium cost by half. They made an entirely different approach with Hema, moving the bulk of the weight to clan level. Did another pass after some time, left requirements as-is. Hm.

8 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

But to introduce some objective facts, the SteamSpy page for Warframe currently shows the median play time over the last two weeks as three hours and fifteen minutes. The "playing for an hour three times a week" you mention is twice the total play time of the average Warframe player, if they did absolutely nothing else but grind mutagen samples for the Hema.

Subjective opinion warning: As brutal as it may sound I don't think someone who plays that much has any right to feel entitled to Hema or anything that requires any kind of effort without shelling out plat.

But that might be because I was brought up on old-school grindy-as-F*** MMOs; once themeparks rolled around I always thought WoW: Burning Crusade's attunement system was way too lax.

[Omnipower]

1 minute ago, Naskoni said:

Problems learning that hard, hard math at school, eh? 50 people in a max sized clan (a moon clan) contributing for the Hema research only would need to input the measly amount of 10 000 mutagen samples EACH. That's roughly TWICE what solo ghost clans need - that's like what, 50-60 hours of ODD farming for each of them? Or if they decide to take it easy it's one hour of farming each week for a YEAR. Or four hours of farming each week for three MONTHS. Totally not painful in any way, all you have to do is find a way to shut down your brain functions while you're at it and pretend you're actually having fun "playing" this game, right?

You glossing over the actual problem before i say the problem let me say this first. We get that DE "wants" clan camaraderie, we get they dont want us to rush over content, and we get setting things to be "meaningful" goals. BUT hema is NONE of that its just some dust collecting weapon that may not see the light of day not because we have it and left it alone but because many wont bother or will ever get it for like you just said a year or a few months dependin how they wish to devote their life to the game. AND before you say something about the dust collecting part(meaning we dont "NEED" it) how are you sure we dont it may or may not become a prerequisite for another weapon in the future and thats what bothers alot of people especially those who know 100% they will never ever get it.

[Naskoni]

Just now, Omnipower said:

You glossing over the actual problem before i say the problem let me say this first. We get that DE "wants" clan camaraderie, we get they dont want us to rush over content, and we get setting things to be "meaningful" goals. BUT hema is NONE of that its just some dust collecting weapon that may not see the light of day not because we have it and left it alone but because many wont bother or will ever get it for like you just said a year or a few months dependin how they wish to devote their life to the game. AND before you say something about the dust collecting part(meaning we dont "NEED" it) how are you sure we dont it may or may not become a prerequisite for another weapon in the future and thats what bothers alot of people especially those who know 100% they will never ever get it.

You sure you read what you quoted, i.e. quoted the right person?

[Omnipower]

2 minutes ago, Naskoni said:

You sure you read what you quoted, i.e. quoted the right person?

I see what you mean but i wasnt bashing what you said i was adding to it i probably shouldve quoted the other guy.

[egregiousRac]

15 minutes ago, Naskoni said:

Problems learning that hard, hard math at school, eh? 50 people in a max sized clan (a moon clan) contributing for the Hema research only would need to input the measly amount of 10 000 mutagen samples EACH. That's roughly TWICE what solo ghost clans need - that's like what, 50-60 hours of ODD farming for each of them? Or if they decide to take it easy it's one hour of farming each week for a YEAR. Or four hours of farming each week for three MONTHS. Totally not painful in any way, all you have to do is find a way to shut down your brain functions while you're at it and pretend you're actually having fun "playing" this game, right?

50 people need four times what I got in roughly eight to ten runs. You are massively exaggerating it.

As I commented, a four-man squad can do it even faster. Two Hydroids, a Nekros, and a Speed Nova can do things far more efficiently than just a Hydroid and a Nekros.

[Omnipower]

1 minute ago, egregiousRac said:

50 people need four times what I got in roughly eight to ten runs. You are massively exaggerating it.

As I commented, a four-man squad can do it even faster. Two Hydroids, a Nekros, and a Speed Nova can do things far more efficiently than just a Hydroid and a Nekros.

Quite the opposite you overestimating the amount of people active in majority of clans at best anyone outside the (pc only not even counting consoles)still active major alliances/clans which is probably about 3/30(im guessing here but being really reasonable) would have at best anywhere from 2 to 20 people active at the best of times and at the worst 0 to 10 so you expecting those people with those numbers do a 50+ person job within that time frame? When i think about stuff i "TRY" to see it from both perspectives so yes if everyone had a reasonable amount of people active its possible but if its the other way around well it cant be seen as anything other then another unnecessary idea that failed at what its supposed to do.

Oh as a side not nothing should require this amount of time or dedication to do unless its meant for endgame or something thats actually useful such as some arcanes, rare mods, high tier gear(hema is not this) and so on.

[Naskoni]

8 minutes ago, egregiousRac said:

50 people need four times what I got in roughly eight to ten runs. You are massively exaggerating it.

As I commented, a four-man squad can do it even faster. Two Hydroids, a Nekros, and a Speed Nova can do things far more efficiently than just a Hydroid and a Nekros.

"Massively exaggerating"? That from the guy that basically claims that 10 000 mutagen samples per person is easy? That's white-knighting on a whole new level of delusion!

[plexus_brachialis]

honestly, after playing regularly for 3 years, yes, i do feel entitled to at least some leeway in getting things. im not a struggling newbie anymore. i'm not scourging every place i can access to gather enough resources to be able to progress anymore. i should be able to afford by now, through casual play, the mediocre mastery fodder. i don't need to have it RIGHT NOW RIGHT THIS INSTANT. but i wish getting it wasn't shoved so out of my usual way and required meta for ideal time/reward ratio. 

especially jarring is 'just nekros and farm, duh' after all the vivers, e gates and dracos, to name the few 'we don't want you to play only one node!' shenanigans.

this isn't even about current hema cost anymore, but the potential that if left unchecked, DE will merrily keep going in this 'we looked at what you have the least of and made base cost 10x that' direction and just spit at all the time we already invested in this game.

 

[Liminal]

40 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

especially jarring is 'just nekros and farm, duh' after all the vivers, e gates and dracos, to name the few 'we don't want you to play only one node!' shenanigans.

Yeah, their incoherent statements are what annoys me the most I think.
Not to mention none of the proposed reasons for this cost make sense when you think about them.

40 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

this isn't even about current hema cost anymore, but the potential that if left unchecked, DE will merrily keep going in this 'we looked at what you have the least of and made base cost 10x that' direction and just spit at all the time we already invested in this game.

It felt like a sucker punch. Stuff was going great, I had no real issues with WF, it was my "main" game, and suddenly: a cost so insanely high (2 active people ghost clan over here) it made me question the future of the game (for me personally).

Suddenly, just playing the game didn't cut it anymore. Sure it was for one item, but who's to say it'll be the last one? Knux research wasn't changed. Sibear wasn't changed (it sent me on a 2 month hiatus and it wasn't even close to this Hema madness). It's seriously disappointing and if I hadn't invested so much time and money on WF I'd have quit after this third strike... but hey, I guess I'm stupid like that. What's for sure is I'm not buying any more platinum since December and my game time is nothing but login->alt+F4.

Edited January 27, 2017 by The_Doc

[John89brensen]

6 hours ago, KIREEK said:

5 hours isn't much on the long term, across 10 days that's like 30 minutes a day

We farm plenty on this game, and 5 hours is if everyone in your clan wants to farm for that one resource. 

 

6 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Nodes in derelict need to be done to count towards star map completion

A trully important thing to do in this game... And its not like you are gonna get a lot of ms by doing it.

 

6 hours ago, KIREEK said:

The idea behind doing nodes efficiently is by killing as many enemies as possible as opposed to avoiding them (very common in sabotages, captures, assassination)

So you have to make every mission as long as possible just to make some more ms? Sounds fun. In any case, they'll still yield less ms than a survival or a defense, so why are you doing capture is beyond me.

 

6 hours ago, KIREEK said:

500 is an ammount that you should have without even grinding for it

500 is the amount that is required by each member to pay the ms cost, if a clan is 100% active. 

 

6 hours ago, KIREEK said:

So you need 1000, or 2000, either you do that effort or you need to put the matter into your own hands regarding clan management or clan participation.Clans that don't have active members, i can't really understand why such clans are fun.

Why do i need 1k or 2k when the amount DE claims i need is 500 a piece? As for clans let me tell you something, we dont like to tell people how to play the game, we are not gonna tell 250 people to sit in ODD for one s****y rifle. Moreover people are free to do what they want, maybe they dont have the time to play the game that often, maybe they are burned out, maybe warframe is more of a past time between other games. Should we expect to have them show up every day and force them to do something they dont want, or we kick them out? Yeah that kind of clan sounds like a lot of fun. Clans used to be to hang out, form squads, get some extra weapons, learn the basics if you were a noob, the costs of research could be high in bigger clans, but no too high that you had to force your clannies to contribute, and most often than not people would do it of their own will. And then DE decided to increase research lab costs by 1000%, for one s****y rifle with a trick. 

 

6 hours ago, KIREEK said:

The idea is for a collective team to research, but you either accept the consequences of being alone or you start questioning the clanmates you have, go directly to them and ask, "in the folowing month (30 days), how many mutagens you farmed and placed on the research?" if they say none then just kick them out, not even having the patience or the effort to play 10 minutes, jesus christ, that's not playing the game, that's laziness.

In my clan there is no interest to pay the absurd cost for the rifle. You realize that you are asking people to farm for at least 5 hours (not necessarily in a row) for one resource, just one resource for the research project of one gun? At least with Sybear and Vauban Prime you were farming for the final product.  And thank god we are not the kind of people that forces others for one stupid goal or we kick them out. There is nothing rewarding in this MR fodder, just a cash grab, another layer of grind.

 

6 hours ago, KIREEK said:

we are aproaching the numbers where if someone doesn't have hema researched then there is a serious activity or management problem in the clan.

Or outright refusal to farm. And dont be under the imression that its just a few of us. We'll keep arguing about this until DE takes action.

 

But hey, if you love to grind, be a dictator to your clanmates, and sit for hours in ODD/S, then more power to you dude. 

[egregiousRac]

1 hour ago, Omnipower said:

Quite the opposite you overestimating the amount of people active in majority of clans at best anyone outside the (pc only not even counting consoles)still active major alliances/clans which is probably about 3/30(im guessing here but being really reasonable) would have at best anywhere from 2 to 20 people active at the best of times and at the worst 0 to 10 so you expecting those people with those numbers do a 50+ person job within that time frame? When i think about stuff i "TRY" to see it from both perspectives so yes if everyone had a reasonable amount of people active its possible but if its the other way around well it cant be seen as anything other then another unnecessary idea that failed at what its supposed to do.

Oh as a side not nothing should require this amount of time or dedication to do unless its meant for endgame or something thats actually useful such as some arcanes, rare mods, high tier gear(hema is not this) and so on.

If they have that few of active members there is no reason for them to be any larger than a Shadow clan. Downsizing isn't hard.

If you have more than 300 active players in a clan a Moon clan makes sense and the Hema shouldn't be a problem. If you have less than 300 players then it should be a Mountain clan, in which case you still should have no problem. This cycle continues all the way down to a Ghost clan with one person in it.

 

I could understand your argument if downsizing didn't exist, but it does. It has for over a year now.

[Flirk2]

Isn't it adorable, how people who defend Hema costs post screenshots of getting about 200 samples after killing about 1600 enemies on ODD?

Totally ignoring:

1) that rate is exactly 1% base drop rate * 2 (provided by drop chance booster) * 2 (provided by resource booster) * 2 (thanks to Pilfering Swarm+Desecrate)

2) with the optimal farming squad and boosters they still need to do it 2.5 times to meet the lowest possible 500 per person donation. 25 missions like that if they are going to fund a solo clan research...

3) Synapse, that was introduced more than 3 years ago and until Hema happened was the most expensive thing in the dojo as far as mutagen samples were concerned... is 65. Hema - 5000. 77 times increase.

4)1% drop chance is officially ''raining''. This is the most frightening one if you think about it.

 

Are you still expecting relics to drop more? Don't. Because if 1% drop chance is ''raining'', there is a veritable torrent of relics.

Have you ever seen a rare mod drop from a bursa? I have, once in all this time. And I'm not expecting to see it ever again nor do I expect the abysmal drop rate to be buffed.

Same with War parts. I hear they drop. I know people who got one or two. I never got one myself.

But nothing really can be thought as too rare now. Because 1% drop chance is ''raining''.

 

Oh, and did you see the ''fix'' about not getting a Detron blueprint with the Detron part from Zanuka anymore? Zanuka beacons didn't sell fast enough or what?

Hema is not the disease. It's a symptom.

[Naskoni]

4 minutes ago, egregiousRac said:

If they have that few of active members there is no reason for them to be any larger than a Shadow clan. Downsizing isn't hard.

If you have more than 300 active players in a clan a Moon clan makes sense and the Hema shouldn't be a problem. If you have less than 300 players then it should be a Mountain clan, in which case you still should have no problem. This cycle continues all the way down to a Ghost clan with one person in it.

 

I could understand your argument if downsizing didn't exist, but it does. It has for over a year now.

Why bother downsizing? According to your own lies statements even 50 people are more than enough to research it in a moon clan. I mean that's 1.5 people in a shadow clan and 0.5 in a ghost clan. 8-10 runs of ODD is all it takes, right? That's like 4-5 runs for a solo ghost clanner.

[egregiousRac]

Just now, Naskoni said:

Why bother downsizing? According to your own lies statements even 50 people are more than enough to research it in a moon clan. I mean that's 1.5 people in a shadow clan and 0.5 in a ghost clan. 8-10 runs of ODD is all it takes, right? That's like 4-5 runs for a solo ghost clanner.

No, it took 8-10 runs for a two-man clan. A solo ghost clan would need 20-25 because of the lack of Nekros' 50% loot boost. For 50 people in a Moon clan that would be about 36 runs each (one a day at this point), but they would be significantly faster due to having twice the players in the match. The latter isn't even necessary though.

My point is that if you can't muster 50 people in a month, there is no reason you should be in a Moon clan. That's only half a Storm clan.

You've had more than a month so far. You've hopefully got many more months ahead of you in your life, as do your clan mates. There's no rush, take your time. If it's too much for you though, and your clan is really that dead, downsize.

[Omnipower]

21 minutes ago, egregiousRac said:

If they have that few of active members there is no reason for them to be any larger than a Shadow clan. Downsizing isn't hard.

If you have more than 300 active players in a clan a Moon clan makes sense and the Hema shouldn't be a problem. If you have less than 300 players then it should be a Mountain clan, in which case you still should have no problem. This cycle continues all the way down to a Ghost clan with one person in it.

 

I could understand your argument if downsizing didn't exist, but it does. It has for over a year now.

Yes downsizing does exist indeed but the fun part of that is DE wanted us to have a sense of working together with clans iirc from a past statement with this weapon obtainment and downsizing and kicking people out definitely emphasizes that bravo its doing that and more we make sure the casuals or those who dont feel the gun is worth the effort out of clans cause we cant be bothered to farm for it while we go do something else we prefer to do over farm ONE resource for ONE gun that is mediocre/MR fodder at BEST. Sorry for the tone i sending here but this just does not fly with me if they wanted more clan cooperation they would work faster on that thing they mentioned some time ago with syndicates+clans.

PS this is my last comment on this topic this is as pointless as the hema gl to your warframing hopefully they dont add any more resource sinks for things that DONT need it in the foreseeable future cause this was by far the most crazy i have ever seen

Edited January 27, 2017 by Omnipower

[egregiousRac]

1 minute ago, Omnipower said:

Yes downsizing does exist indeed but the fun part of that is DE wanted us to have a sense of working together with clans iirc from a past statement with this weapon obtainment and downsizing and kicking people out definitely emphasizes that bravo its doing that and more we make sure the casuals or those who dont feel the gun is worth the effort out of clans cause we cant be bothered to farm for it while we go do something else we prefer to do over farm ONE resource for ONE gun that is mediocre/MR fodder at BEST. Sorry for the tone i sending here but this just does not fly with me if they wanted more clan cooperation they would work faster on that thing they mentioned some time ago with syndicates+clans.

1. If people haven't been on in over a month they aren't really contributing much to the existence of the clan. I can understand keeping some people around (our Dojo architect is still in ours even though she hasn't played in a year), but if you are in a huge clan there can't be that many that that is the case for.
2. Derelicts aren't hard at all, so I'm not sure what you comment about casuals is.
3. Derelicts are also a decent source of Orokin Cells and Neurodes. Many players need a fair number of those. Additionally, anybody that isn't Hydroid will be getting a sizable amount of XP for their weapons. On top of all of that, lots of relics and a fair amount of Endo is up for grabs in the mission drop pools there.
4. The gun isn't mediocre or MR fodder. It's actually a quite good weapon, as many in this game are (far more than people give credit to).

The Derelicts is useful for more than one thing. If anything, the Hema is a blessing in that it gets people to not ignore it quite so much.

[Liminal]

3 minutes ago, egregiousRac said:

The Derelicts is useful for more than one thing. If anything, the Hema is a blessing in that it gets people to not ignore it quite so much.

And by powerfarming samples, how many cells,neurodes and nanospores will players end up with? Who knows how DE will address those stockpiles. This one item devalues every other derelict resource. This cost is a mistake on more than one front.

[egregiousRac]

3 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

And by powerfarming samples, how many cells,neurodes and nanospores will players end up with? Who knows how DE will address those stockpiles. This one item devalues every other derelict resource. This cost is a mistake on more than one front.

I think I gained about fifty of each there. It's hard to tell given that I haven't paid them much attention for a while.

This game currently requires around 400 orokin cells for all of the items in the game other than potatoes and forma, so that isn't throwing it off too badly. I'm not sure on the neurodes needed in the game, but they are used a fair amount too.

[Naskoni]

22 minutes ago, egregiousRac said:

No, it took 8-10 runs for a two-man clan. A solo ghost clan would need 20-25 because of the lack of Nekros' 50% loot boost. For 50 people in a Moon clan that would be about 36 runs each (one a day at this point), but they would be significantly faster due to having twice the players in the match. The latter isn't even necessary though.

My point is that if you can't muster 50 people in a month, there is no reason you should be in a Moon clan. That's only half a Storm clan.

You've had more than a month so far. You've hopefully got many more months ahead of you in your life, as do your clan mates. There's no rush, take your time. If it's too much for you though, and your clan is really that dead, downsize.

So a moon clan player making 10 000 samples in 36 runs needs to get 278 samples a run. Guess even with both boosters on that quite some runs we're speaking about here (not to mention the stupidity of spending that much plat for boosters to get a supposedly free weapon - 200p per booster per month, since you imply doing it for months). Just to land back on Earth - a 20 round ODD with a single Nekros in a 4-man team without any boosters produces 35 samples on average. But as we already established math is not exactly your strong side. Deluding yourself though - now that is on entirely other plane of mastery in your case...

And in addition - the Hema is not a bad weapon? You concluded that after making a grand total of 125 kills with it? Because in my personal experience it's not even mediocre, it's trash.