How the Grineer Helminth Charger makes sense lore wise.

[Bug24]

I think we should probably put a spoiler tag on this. Just for safety net, y'know?

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, Bug24 said:

I think we should probably put a spoiler tag on this. Just for safety net, y'know?

good call. on it.

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

The infestation, irregardless of distance, is connected via a hive mind. This hive mind, is capable of transmitting and receiving genetic information over great distances.

OK, but the hive mind in this case is Helminth. Which most likely doesn't have any grineer dna in its "code".

 

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

These kills can be considered collection of raw genetic data that he is able to transmit to other warframes, as well as filter into a kubrow egg.

The flaw in this argument is that you can get injected by Helminth, then never use that frame for a full week, then just pop the cyst into a kubrow egg and out comes an infested grineer.

Also, none of this explains how our infested pet comes out WEARING armor. Armor doesn't contain DNA as far as I know.

[Bug24]

Just now, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

OK, but the hive mind in this case is Helminth. Which most likely doesn't have any grineer dna in its "code".

 

The flaw in this argument is that you can get injected by Helminth, then never use that frame for a full week, then just pop the cyst into a kubrow egg and out comes an infested grineer.

Also, none of this explains how our infested pet comes out WEARING armor. Armor doesn't contain DNA as far as I know.

This is where lore breaks down.... nonetheless, the devs probably rushed to push this with the Glast Gambit, so it has a few loose ends.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

OK, but the hive mind in this case is Helminth. Which most likely doesn't have any grineer dna in its "code".

 

The flaw in this argument is that you can get injected by Helminth, then never use that frame for a full week, then just pop the cyst into a kubrow egg and out comes an infested grineer.

Also, none of this explains how our infested pet comes out WEARING armor. Armor doesn't contain DNA as far as I know.

Helminth is only activated by Nidus, and DE could have released this mechanic with the assumption in mind that nobody was going to craft/purchase nidus and NOT use him. So, possible oversight on the dev's part could be the culprit.

As for wearing the armor, just as all infested chargers do. It's likely part of the template for infested chargers as a whole, due to the infested using organic and inorganic components in it's unit creation. Genetically speaking, it's easier to retain information regarding form of body and transition over extensive periods of time. and if current forms allow for adequate defensive abilities in relation to resource requirements to create said defenses in tandem with offensive and self sustaining systems, then there is little to no need for any further adaptation other than incorporating new information/source material for future use.

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

Helminth is only activated by Nidus, and DE could have released this mechanic with the assumption in mind that nobody was going to craft/purchase nidus and NOT use him. So, possible oversight on the dev's part could be the culprit.

As for wearing the armor, just as all infested chargers do. It's likely part of the template for infested chargers as a whole, due to the infested using organic and inorganic components in it's unit creation. Genetically speaking, it's easier to retain information regarding form of body and transition over extensive periods of time. and if current forms allow for adequate defensive abilities in relation to resource requirements to create said defenses in tandem with offensive and self sustaining systems, then there is little to no need for any further adaptation other than incorporating new information/source material for future use.

The infested don't just generate random body parts, they're parasites. The maggots are the only "pure" infested that exist, everything else needs something to latch onto. And back to the armor: Armor can in no possible way contain DNA. It's made of inorganic compounds. Otherwise the infested could just make a mutalist moa, which again makes no sense (also from my understanding the "mutalist" infested is a specific strain of infested that can inhabit and overtake inorganic systems, like robots). 

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

The infested don't just generate random body parts, they're parasites. The maggots are the only "pure" infested that exist, everything else needs something to latch onto. And back to the armor: Armor can in no possible way contain DNA. It's made of inorganic compounds. Otherwise the infested could just make a mutalist moa, which again makes no sense (also from my understanding the "mutalist" infested is a specific strain of infested that can inhabit and overtake inorganic systems, like robots). 

yes, it's made of inorganic compounds, which can and are, manipulated and altered by the infestation. Thus, once an entity has been mutated and assimilated the entirety of the unit can be recreated. this is indicated by the game lore itself as mentioned by god is a cat girl earlier. Boilers spawn leapers and crawlers as well, further spreading currently existing infested units from a form of rapidly growing eggs. These egg-like structures already contain the pre-programmed blueprint of the unit. The only thing that happens during the short maturation period is localized materials are absorbed and incorporated to complete the blueprint and create the infested unit.

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

yes, it's made of inorganic compounds, which can and are, manipulated and altered by the infestation. Thus, once an entity has been mutated and assimilated the entirety of the unit can be recreated. this is indicated by the game lore itself as mentioned by god is a cat girl earlier. Boilers spawn leapers and crawlers as well, further spreading currently existing infested units from a form of rapidly growing eggs. These egg-like structures already contain the pre-programmed blueprint of the unit. The only thing that happens during the short maturation period is localized materials are absorbed and incorporated to complete the blueprint and create the infested unit.

OK, I can vibe with a majority of that, but my last comment before I go watch the Simpsons: Even if the infested can make carbon copies of things, the material contained inside a kubrow egg is strictly organic. Unless there's a particle accelerator inside that egg you're not gonna come out with any transition metals to make that armor.

[NeithanDiniem]

14 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

OK, but the hive mind in this case is Helminth. Which most likely doesn't have any grineer dna in its "code".

 

The flaw in this argument is that you can get injected by Helminth, then never use that frame for a full week, then just pop the cyst into a kubrow egg and out comes an infested grineer.

Also, none of this explains how our infested pet comes out WEARING armor. Armor doesn't contain DNA as far as I know.

Actually since Helminth is infested, it bears to reason that this creature was made and separated from the hive. It can perfectly well already have the genetic knowledge to create the charger, so there is no breakdown of the lore at all here. Also for that matter, Helminth injects you with something, what else would that be than the genetic information to begin incubation of the cyst? It contains Infested material that contains the potential information required to create the charger from the organic material in the egg. There is no flaw at all. Lastly, how is the armor any different whatsoever from an exoskeleton for the infested? Infestation can incorporate inorganic material, probably by binding to it, breaking it down, and intermixing organic material into the whole deal. The incubation chamber would then provide the required materials for the incubation to end up making the infested charger. It provides the nutrients and materials needed to rapidly incubate a Kubrow or a Kavat, how is providing the extra material needed for rapid growth of an infested any different?

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

OK, I can vibe with a majority of that, but my last comment before I go watch the Simpsons: Even if the infested can make carbon copies of things, the material contained inside a kubrow egg is strictly organic. Unless there's a particle accelerator inside that egg you're not gonna come out with any transition metals to make that armor.

Your body itself has metals in it, how would the incubation chamber not be able to provide any other needed materials?

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

OK, I can vibe with a majority of that, but my last comment before I go watch the Simpsons: Even if the infested can make carbon copies of things, the material contained inside a kubrow egg is strictly organic. Unless there's a particle accelerator inside that egg you're not gonna come out with any transition metals to make that armor.

bear in mind that the incubator itself performs genetic alteration to predispositioned breeds, and that material information theoretically is collected by Nidus when he kills a grineer.

[Herosupport]

no you never once explained how a grineer lancer got into the kubrow egg nor will i take the time to explain how inefficient forming ferrite(steel) by biological means is when their is not enough raw material in the kubrow egg to produce it would however make more sense for the Helminith/Nidus genetic material in the cyst to combine with the female genetic material to create a new creature entirely especially with the food Ordis feeds are pets when they are out of cryo would not contain large amounts of the elements required to manufacture grineer cybernetics has feeding protocols for kubrows would not include steel and polymer and plastids or alloy plates so this new creature would most likely develop purely organic features has that would be the most efficient use of its food.

Helminith is a being separate from the infestation hive mind however similar but individual in nature most likely designed to add the organic components in every warframe (the reason you need life support) it also makes warframes immune to the infestation and by nature is men't to reject and defeat the infestation there is no reason that can be given why such a organism would acquire any infested traits or blue prints of any kind. the helminith cyst would however Acquire the Nidus traits and use them to create and new kubrow/Nidus hybrid.

[NeithanDiniem]

7 minutes ago, Herosupport said:

no you never once explained how a grineer lancer got into the kubrow egg nor will i take the time to explain how inefficient forming ferrite(steel) by biological means is when their is not enough raw material in the kubrow egg to produce it would however make more sense for the Helminith/Nidus genetic material in the cyst to combine with the female genetic material to create a new creature entirely especially with the food Ordis feeds are pets when they are out of cryo would not contain large amounts of the elements required to manufacture grineer cybernetics has feeding protocols for kubrows would not include steel and polymer and plastids or alloy plates so this new creature would most likely develop purely organic features has that would be the most efficient use of its food.

Helminith is a being separate from the infestation hive mind however similar but individual in nature most likely designed to add the organic components in every warframe (the reason you need life support) it also makes warframes immune to the infestation and by nature is men't to reject and defeat the infestation there is no reason that can be given why such a organism would acquire any infested traits or blue prints of any kind. the helminith cyst would however Acquire the Nidus traits and use them to create and new kubrow/Nidus hybrid.

Yea we did, repeatedly, multiple times. If you cant take the time to read the several times we've stated it, why are you replying? If the only thing you are going to do is read the OP instead of all the conversation that went on afterwards, you are going to just endlessly cause people to have to repeat themselves.

Warframes are infested golems wearing suits, they are already immune to the infestation because they ARE infested. You are also forgetting that Helminth came into existence after the infestation had already been created, let loose, and started a full on plague in the origin system, its fully capable of having the genetic "blueprint" of a Charger. Lastly, it wouldnt be a Kubrow/Nidus Hybrid if the thing can grow on any warframe, it would just be an infested Kubrow.

Edited January 4, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, Herosupport said:

no you never once explained how a grineer lancer got into the kubrow egg nor will i take the time to explain how inefficient forming ferrite(steel) by biological means is when their is not enough raw material in the kubrow egg to produce it would however make more sense for the Helminith/Nidus genetic material in the cyst to combine with the female genetic material to create a new creature entirely especially with the food Ordis feeds are pets when they are out of cryo would not contain large amounts of the elements required to manufacture grineer cybernetics has feeding protocols for kubrows would not include steel and polymer and plastids or alloy plates so this new creature would most likely develop purely organic features has that would be the most efficient use of its food.

Helminith is a being separate from the infestation hive mind however similar but individual in nature most likely designed to add the organic components in every warframe (the reason you need life support) it also makes warframes immune to the infestation and by nature is men't to reject and defeat the infestation there is no reason that can be given why such a organism would acquire any infested traits or blue prints of any kind. the helminith cyst would however Acquire the Nidus traits and use them to create and new kubrow/Nidus hybrid.

actually, I did explain everything in detail, had you read carefully. The infested make a blueprint of ALL current existing information regarding the unit they are infesting, from outward inorganic material to inward organic material. After it's been mutated, the information is uploaded to the hive mind. This material, is collected and developed within the cyst, then drained into a machine that performs genetic manipulation. Also, you're under the misconception that Ordis feeds your companions, when there is nothing at all hinted at in the game, save for the kavats which are dictated to feed off of the infestation itself. Aside from that, there is nothing at all hinted at or declared by the lore of the game that dictates Ordis is the one who feeds or maintains the companions.

So, again, since all components regarding an infested unit are recorded into a blueprint format and uploaded for mass production system wide, and you're taking that concentrated delicious goo and overriding genetic information on an egg, it does indeed make sense.

[Herosupport]

2 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Yea we did, repeatedly, multiple times. If you cant take the time to read the several times we've stated it, why are you replying?

Warframes are infested golems wearing suits, they are already immune to the infestation because they ARE infested. You are also forgetting that Helminth came into existence after the infestation had already been created, let loose, and started a full on plague in the origin system, its fully capable of having the genetic "blueprint" of a Charger. Lastly, it wouldnt be a Kubrow/Nidus Hybrid if the thing can grow on any warframe, it would just be an infested Kubrow.

well you blind fanboys have fun running this game into the ground.

if Helminith is part of the infestation then it along with ordis deserves to die.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Herosupport said:

well you blind fanboys have fun running this game into the ground.

if Helminith is part of the infestation then it along with ordis deserves to die.

explain to me how appreciating and knowing the lore in this game makes me a "fanboy" and is driving this game into the ground. DO elaborate, please.

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, Herosupport said:

well you blind fanboys have fun running this game into the ground.

if Helminith is part of the infestation then it along with ordis deserves to die.

Again you show that you didn't read anything. We specifically stated that Helminth was NOT a part of the Hive. The ignorance is staggering.

[Xarteros]

One might as well argue that since the Infested "hive mind" is overriding the original Kubrow DNA to be a grineer-based sequence, we should also be able to breed Lephantis, and Ancient Healers, and Mutalist Tar Moas

No, it still makes no sense at all. You always inject a Kubrow egg (not a grineer clone) with the cyst's contents, and it always comes out as a charger, not some other infested type. If it were some 'hive mind override', there is no reason whatsoever that it can only produce a single type of infested creature. It doesn't make sense thematically, genetically or mechanically. 

I welcome the devs making some way to 'tame' a charger as a pet, or to make a 'charger-themed kubrow', but breeding a grineer-based charger from a kubrow egg is stupid, pointless and misguided.

[Angrados]

41 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

The maggots are the only "pure" infested that exist, everything else needs something to latch onto.

I realize this is a fairly minor quibble, but technically speaking I believe the Ancients are also pure infested as well, as we don't see parts incorperated into their bodies at any point either (unless I'm incorrect, and in which case please do correct me). 

 

5 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Yea we did, repeatedly, multiple times. If you cant take the time to read the several times we've stated it, why are you replying?

Warframes are infested golems wearing suits, they are already immune to the infestation because they ARE infested. You are also forgetting that Helminth came into existence after the infestation had already been created, let loose, and started a full on plague in the origin system, its fully capable of having the genetic "blueprint" of a Charger. Lastly, it wouldnt be a Kubrow/Nidus Hybrid if the thing can grow on any warframe, it would just be an infested Kubrow.

I think the story has spent quite a bit of time exploring what the Tenno are. Now, in a sense, we are asking the opposite question: What is a Warframe? It's already sort of known that the Technocyte plague is part of a Warframe. I tend to think of the Infested in terms of the Technocyte plague, since that's where it started. The real question is, where does Nidus fit into the picture in terms of his role within the plague?

Regarding the Helminth Charger, and Helminth in general, if it is in fact just another strain of the Plague and not connected to the original strain that's taken everything over, I find that idea fascinating. My perspective on Helminth is that it's the "hive mind" that we've thrown around a couple times in this conversation, but only just awake (kind of like a newly formed Gravemind from Halo, if you will). Or perhaps, considering the way it handles the Operator and the way it speaks about sleeping, it was once much more powerful but only awoke later? It's hard to tell with what we have. I'm not terribly troubled by the Helminth charger and how it looks or behaves, simply because it doesn't bug me. I'm excited to see more of Helminth and how it affects the plot and world of the game.

18 minutes ago, Herosupport said:

well you blind fanboys have fun running this game into the ground.

if Helminith is part of the infestation then it along with ordis deserves to die.

Yikes. For the record, Ordis has nothing to do with the Infestation. He also has no connection to Helminth. It sounds like you have your own personal animi to deal with, so I don't see why you're getting upset.

[Herosupport]

Helminith Charger

Codex entree reads has follows: an infested pet bread from the helminith cyst. so i looked up bread on google image and i got stuff like:

   

pet mods reads has follows:

Helminith ferocity: Allows the kubrow to use finisher attacks on an enemy. +120% finisher damage

Helminith hunt: an unused, unfused artifact. the kubrow charges ahead to attack an enemy, dealing 160 damage to all in its path.

I also noticed the red underline beneath unfused so i googled the definition 

un·fused

ˌənˈfyo͞ozd/

adjective

 

1. 1.

   not fused or joined.

   "Darwin had predicted that a proto-bird would one day turn up with unfused wing fingers"
2. 2.

   not fitted or supplied with a fuse.

   "unfused electrical terminals"

 

This looks like a joke to me one DE is getting their laughs off on tho this pet would of been one of the greatest april fools day joke. has it looks like it could of been done in one days worth of work.

Unlike you guys or gals there are players(like me) who like the concept of having a infested pet are doing their best to help DE make something great out of this

Edited January 4, 2017 by Herosupport

[Bug24]

3 minutes ago, Herosupport said:

well you blind fanboys have fun running this game into the ground.

if Helminith is part of the infestation then it along with ordis deserves to die.

Ordis is a light construct of the consciousness of the late Ordan Karris, a cephalon. He can not be killed. It's also his punishment for attempting to slaughter the people who were to give him immortality as an Orokin instead of as a cephalon. Also, must you be so rude? We're just hypothesizing.

We would encourage you to propose another theory, if you would like; but giving a statement that we "fanboys" are the exclusive cause of decay of this game whilst you aren't even fully comprehending what we are saying is utter nonsense.

This has gone from a constructive post regarding lore and real life links to a thread arguing about your desire to deny any theory that does not satisfy all of your conditions. If you would like to contribute, try to support this theory and use real logic to back it up, as I did with my analysis of genome injection using vectors and recombinant DNA.

I researched my post, and stated that some of my sources were out of my own notes from high school. I also gave external information to explain what I was trying to say without going on and on for 4-5 paragraphs.

Tl;dr:

If you're not gonna say anything nice, don't say anything at all. Keep criticism constructive. Try not to be perceived as inquisitive.

One thing I did find correct with your post is the spelling of Helminith. Good on you, boy.

[NeithanDiniem]

4 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

One might as well argue that since the Infested "hive mind" is overriding the original Kubrow DNA to be a grineer-based sequence, we should also be able to breed Lephantis, and Ancient Healers, and Mutalist Tar Moas

No, it still makes no sense at all. You always inject a Kubrow egg (not a grineer clone) with the cyst's contents, and it always comes out as a charger, not some other infested type. If it were some 'hive mind override', there is no reason whatsoever that it can only produce a single type of infested creature. It doesn't make sense thematically, genetically or mechanically. 

I welcome the devs making some way to 'tame' a charger as a pet, or to make a 'charger-themed kubrow', but breeding a grineer-based charger from a kubrow egg is stupid, pointless and misguided.

No, you wouldn't breed a Lephantis, because it took him centuries of self replication and incorporating genetic material to become what it is today, let alone that it wouldn't fit in the incubation chamber. You are however fully capable of creating other infested units using this system as long as they would fit into the machine, but a Charger is the only one that would be capable of using existing skeletal structures and animations, and the charger was a concept exploration by DE.

You inject ORGANIC MATERIAL with infested fluid, which has the capability of changing organic material drastically, and you do this in a machine that is capable of GENETIC MANIPULATION. It does not require a Grineer clone. Why is this you may ask? Read previous comments by myself and Lee. We have explained this three times already, and honestly are tired of doing so again.

The only misguided one here seems to be the ones that fail to read over material that has been discussed already, and are thus going around asking the same questions that have already been answered.

[Herosupport]

@Bug24 ive been playing this game for a long time and I keep seeing DE make some poor choices like the way they nerfed several weapons and other content they put into the game and to see a post like this its easy for me to misinterpret the meaning behind them. and for that im sorry about the conclusion i made about this post.

[ObviousLee]

9 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

One might as well argue that since the Infested "hive mind" is overriding the original Kubrow DNA to be a grineer-based sequence, we should also be able to breed Lephantis, and Ancient Healers, and Mutalist Tar Moas

No, it still makes no sense at all. You always inject a Kubrow egg (not a grineer clone) with the cyst's contents, and it always comes out as a charger, not some other infested type. If it were some 'hive mind override', there is no reason whatsoever that it can only produce a single type of infested creature. It doesn't make sense thematically, genetically or mechanically. 

I welcome the devs making some way to 'tame' a charger as a pet, or to make a 'charger-themed kubrow', but breeding a grineer-based charger from a kubrow egg is stupid, pointless and misguided.

This is an unfinished system. At present, the system only produces a singular unit. There is nothing to say whatsoever that there will not be other units we might spawn from the cyst, or that the cyst spawning kubrow is the entirety of the planned system, which would be silly to think due to everything present within the room where Helminth resides.

 

9 minutes ago, Bug24 said:

Ordis is a light construct of the consciousness of the late Ordan Karris, a cephalon. He can not be killed. It's also his punishment for attempting to slaughter the people who were to give him immortality as an Orokin instead of as a cephalon. Also, must you be so rude? We're just hypothesizing.

We would encourage you to propose another theory, if you would like; but giving a statement that we "fanboys" are the exclusive cause of decay of this game whilst you aren't even fully comprehending what we are saying is utter nonsense.

This has gone from a constructive post regarding lore and real life links to a thread arguing about your desire to deny any theory that does not satisfy all of your conditions. If you would like to contribute, try to support this theory and use real logic to back it up, as I did with my analysis of genome injection using vectors and recombinant DNA.

I researched my post, and stated that some of my sources were out of my own notes from high school. I also gave external information to explain what I was trying to say without going on and on for 4-5 paragraphs.

Tl;dr:

If you're not gonna say anything nice, don't say anything at all. Keep criticism constructive. Try not to be perceived as inquisitive.

One thing I did find correct with your post is the spelling of Helminith. Good on you, boy.

I literally jumped to my feet in applause.

7 minutes ago, Herosupport said:

Helminith Charger

Codex entree reads has follows: an infested pet bread from the helminith cyst. so i looked up bread on google image and i got stuff like:

   

pet mods reads has follows:

Helminith ferocity: Allows the kubrow to use finisher attacks on an enemy. +120% finisher damage

Helminith hunt: an unused, unfused artifact. the kubrow charges ahead to attack an enemy, dealing 160 damage to all in its path.

I also noticed the red underline beneath unfused so i googled the definition 

un·fused

ˌənˈfyo͞ozd/

adjective

 

1. 1.

   not fused or joined.

   "Darwin had predicted that a proto-bird would one day turn up with unfused wing fingers"
2. 2.

   not fitted or supplied with a fuse.

   "unfused electrical terminals"

 

This looks like a joke to me one DE is getting their laughs off on tho this pet would of been one of the greatest april fools day joke. has it looks like it could of been done in one days worth of work.

Unlike you guys or gals there are players(like me) who like the concept of having a infested pet are doing their best to help DE make something great out of this

you must bear in mind that the current system was released in a far from finished state. I doubt they are getting their laughs off at this as this was released in a similar fashion to Spectres of the Rail in terms of finished product not being the case upon shipment.

[Bug24]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

This is an unfinished system. At present, the system only produces a singular unit. There is nothing to say whatsoever that there will not be other units we might spawn from the cyst, or that the cyst spawning kubrow is the entirety of the planned system, which would be silly to think due to everything present within the room where Helminth resides.

 

I literally jumped to my feet in applause.

you must bear in mind that the current system was released in a far from finished state. I doubt they are getting their laughs off at this as this was released in a similar fashion to Spectres of the Rail in terms of finished product not being the case upon shipment.

IT HAD TO BE DONE