How the Grineer Helminth Charger makes sense lore wise.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, Bug24 said:

IT HAD TO BE DONE 

Well played sir, well played.

[Bug24]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

Well played sir, well played.

IT JUST KEEPS GOIN I CANT STAHP

[Herosupport]

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

you must bear in mind that the current system was released in a far from finished state. I doubt they are getting their laughs off at this as this was released in a similar fashion to Spectres of the Rail in terms of finished product not being the case upon shipment.

has I have stated there are players giving DE helpful feedback on how they would like to see the charger pet become.

here is an idea that just popped into my head let the players knock down a enemy and capture it ill choose a nulifier when the mission is over ill infect it with the cyst and make it work for me.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Herosupport

[Bug24]

4 minutes ago, Herosupport said:

has I have stated there are players giving DE helpful feedback on how they would like to see the charger pet become.

here is an idea that just popped into my head let the players knock down a enemy and capture it ill choose a nulifier when the mission is over ill infect it with the cyst and make it work for me.

Just a recommendation to garner more respect:

Proofread your posts before submitting them. It helps your point get across better.

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, Herosupport said:

has I have stated there are players giving DE helpful feedback on how they would like to see the charger pet become.

here is an idea that just popped into my head let the players knock down a enemy and capture it ill choose a nulifier when the mission is over ill infect it with the cyst and make it work for me.

the reason that wouldn't work is that we would need a method to override the signal of the hive mind. This occurs in void towers via the neural sentry, due to the distance from the hive mind signal(pocket dimension of the void n all) making the hive minds signal weak, compared to the virtually overwhelming signal from the NS. add to that that transference works on the same theory as the hive mind, only difference being that it's singular and directional as opposed to mass signal relays and omnidirectional. Add to this fact that transference assumes direct control of a warframe, which in of itself is infested material set for Tenno control. We'd need to effectively abandon control of the warframe, rendering it inert to maintain focus on overriding a solar system spanning signal just to keep the unit from ripping off our faces.

[NeithanDiniem]

12 minutes ago, Herosupport said:

has I have stated there are players giving DE helpful feedback on how they would like to see the charger pet become.

here is an idea that just popped into my head let the players knock down a enemy and capture it ill choose a nulifier when the mission is over ill infect it with the cyst and make it work for me.

That would only work if we had infested versions of those units. It also seems too pokemon-like... Not very similar to what DE is intending for companions by the looks of it.

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

45 minutes ago, Angrados said:

I realize this is a fairly minor quibble, but technically speaking I believe the Ancients are also pure infested as well, as we don't see parts incorperated into their bodies at any point either (unless I'm incorrect, and in which case please do correct me). 

Nah, the ancients are infested orokin, you can see their robes and such. One of the Simaris Codex things gives evidence that the ancients are infested orokin too.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

Nah, the ancients are infested orokin, you can see their robes and such. One of the Simaris Codex things gives evidence that the ancients are infested orokin too.

yup. it was a singular Lorist who was incorporated into the infestation. Her sister came looking for her and was saved by Trinity Prime.

[Angrados]

13 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

yup. it was a singular Lorist who was incorporated into the infestation. Her sister came looking for her and was saved by Trinity Prime.

 

14 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

Nah, the ancients are infested orokin, you can see their robes and such. One of the Simaris Codex things gives evidence that the ancients are infested orokin too.

I've read the synthesis entry, and I know what you're talking about. I always read her salvation as coming at the hands of a Sentient, as the way it was described reminded me of a Battlyst's spinny laser ball attack. But, if it was Trinity Prime, I will take your word for it.

With that in mind, though, there are other problems that arise. If it was one Lorist, why are there three different kinds of Ancients that we've encountered thus far? Does that indicate that there were other subsets of the Orokin that had corresponding abilities that the Infested incorperated? 

Also, if they were in fact infested Orokin, they should be much, much stronger than they are now. Atm they're glorified mobs. They should be minibosses in their own right, and they REALLY shouldn't be popping up all over the damn place. They also have had 400 years worth of replication to become as powerful if not more powerful than Lephantis, in terms of the lore, and that doesn't reflect at all in the gameplay. I say more powerful because Lephantis had space restrictions that the Ancients, apparently, did not. 

This is probably food for another thread, but I have serious issues with the strength of Lephantis vs the strength of, say, the J3 golem. Lephantis is much older, and therefore much stronger, than the J3 golem, or at least, he should be. I can't think of a time where I've ever failed to beat Lephantis in a single run, as opposed to J3, who despite being probably around half Lephantis's age is stronger (higher level too, if memory serves) and much, much bigger. This can be addressed by the space restraint question, of course, but if the Infested really feeds on everything surrounding it and incorperates/self replicates in order to make itself stronger, that would indicate that Lephantis should be several measures of magnitude more powerful and deadly than J3. It just doesn't make any form of logical sense. 

Food for thought, anyway.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Angrados
Ranted about Lephantis for a bit.

[NeithanDiniem]

27 minutes ago, Angrados said:

 

I've read the synthesis entry, and I know what you're talking about. I always read her salvation as coming at the hands of a Sentient, as the way it was described reminded me of a Battlyst's spinny laser ball attack. But, if it was Trinity Prime, I will take your word for it.

With that in mind, though, there are other problems that arise. If it was one Lorist, why are there three different kinds of Ancients that we've encountered thus far? Does that indicate that there were other subsets of the Orokin that had corresponding abilities that the Infested incorperated? 

Also, if they were in fact infested Orokin, they should be much, much stronger than they are now. Atm they're glorified mobs. They should be minibosses in their own right, and they REALLY shouldn't be popping up all over the damn place. They also have had 400 years worth of replication to become as powerful if not more powerful than Lephantis, in terms of the lore, and that doesn't reflect at all in the gameplay. I say more powerful because Lephantis had space restrictions that the Ancients, apparently, did not. 

This is probably food for another thread, but I have serious issues with the strength of Lephantis vs the strength of, say, the J3 golem. Lephantis is much older, and therefore much stronger, than the J3 golem, or at least, he should be. I can't think of a time where I've ever failed to beat Lephantis in a single run, as opposed to J3, who despite being probably around half Lephantis's age is stronger (higher level too, if memory serves) and much, much bigger. This can be addressed by the space restraint question, of course, but if the Infested really feeds on everything surrounding it and incorperates/self replicates in order to make itself stronger, that would indicate that Lephantis should be several measures of magnitude more powerful and deadly than J3. It just doesn't make any form of logical sense. 

Food for thought, anyway.

Yea, a sentient wouldn't have fit because the saved Orokin stated they sensed the presence of another healer. Trinity prime fits that description royally.

The individual infested ancient in the missions we find haven't live for years and years (we aren't 100% on how many hundreds it had been since the infested were created). Also Lephantis did get Orokin in its make up, one of its heads is based on the ancients design. Individual infesteds' adaptations that would make them stronger would be on an individual standpoint, compared to a universal, because its based on their specific environment.

Lephantis had a lot of time to age and adapt to its environment, but its environment was limited. He was restricted to that one section of the ship (maybe his holding cell area?). It is strong, but its environment did not give it the opportunity to grow as much as Jeordas did. He took down entire ships and was able to incorporate all the ships crew and cephalons. Gives him a good amount of time to likewise adapt to a broader environment. Jeordas's age is also not 100% confirmable, as he could have used the old infested strain (he is not a robotic AI, hes a cephalon) and still infested ships. The size of Jeordas is what gives him his strength, as well as having more variety of material to infest and incorporate. That mass gives him a LOT of weapons to use against his enemies. He also created copies of himself, which would have been able to assist or share information between themselves.

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Angrados]

23 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Yea, a sentient wouldn't have fit because the saved Orokin stated they sensed the presence of another healer. Trinity prime fits that description royally.

The individual infested ancient in the missions we find haven't live for years and years (we aren't 100% on how many hundreds it had been since the infested were created). Also Lephantis did get Orokin in its make up, one of its heads is based on the ancients design. Individual infested's adaptations that would make them stronger would be on an individual standpoint, compared to a universal.

Lephantis had a lot of time to age and adapt to its environment, but its environment was limited He was restricted to that one section of the ship (maybe his holding cell area?). It is strong, but its environment did not give it the opportunity to grow as much as Jeordas did. He took down entire ships and was able to incorporate all the ships crew and cephalons. Gives him a good amount of time to likewise adapt to a broader environment. Jeordas's age is also not 100% confirmable, as he could have used the old infested strain (he is not a robotic AI, hes a cephalon) and still infested ships. The size of Jeordas is what gives him his strength, as well as having more variety of material to infest and incorporate. He also created copies of himself, which would have been able to assist or share information between themselves.

 

Technically, you could also mark that down to the Lorist detecting her sister, which is how I read it, but again, two different PoVs, right?

The Infested Ancients, if they were truly Orokin in origin, have to be at least 400 years old, if not older, since that's the last time that the Orokin were recorded as alive. It's possible that in subsequent years the Orokin gradually were consumed by the Infested and that would make sense, but I would peg them to be at least 300 or so years old, with a fairly liberal estimate. They'd have to be much, much stronger if self-replication is in fact a thing, and they'd have to be a hell of a lot less common than they are now. Logically speaking it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

The J3's age is nailed down somewhat, though, and it has to be younger than Lephantis because Jordas was the Cephalon for a Corpus ship. That much is implied at least in the Infested Runner's synthesis entry. So we can peg him at, oh, around 200 years of age, maybe a little more or less, giving the Corpus time to build an empire that could make it out to Eris. 

Which, at the very least, is significantly younger than Lephantis, who as you will recall has no problems busting out of his cage's roof. He is very strong, true, but if he could have broken out of his cell at any time--by blowing out the ceiling of it--why didn't he? Furthermore, before the fight Lephantis communicates with us on the same somatic wavelength, asking us why we defile them and that sorta stuff. In my mind Lephantis is not just strong, but also intelligent (see talking to the Tenno, much like Phorid and the like), so why couldn't have been bothered to leave? What kept him in the Derelict if he was clearly strong enough to leave whenever he chose? 

The design of Lephantis feels somewhat abortive in terms of the lore. If he's really over 400 years old--which he has to be, since he was created during the Old War--why are there elements of modern Grineer and Corpus design in his model? Those didn't really exist back during that time, and unless the hive mind theory is accurate Lephantis never would have had the opportunity to confront or even assimilate that into his own design. If you look inside his chamber there's no remains, just Infested tissue pretty much everywhere. If he really has been self-replicating for centuries--which implies that he hasn't really been getting new material lately--why would those features exist on his model? And if the hive mind were really to be a thing, much like a Gravemind, why would it choose to pick the heads of both as its weakpoints? What strategic or biological purpose does having three heads involve? 

In my opinion, if the lore is actually that important to DE (and I would argue that the inclusion of cinematic quests and their new focus would indicate as much) Lephantis needs either a rework or at least more attention. There's simply too much we don't know about him and the idea that he couldn't leave doesn't hold water because he can, especially if he gives himself more room to replicate (by, say, blowing out the roof of his cell). I think that with the suddenly increased focus on the Infested this is a good opportunity to do it. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Angrados
Fixed a minor redundancy.

[NeithanDiniem]

57 minutes ago, Angrados said:

Technically, you could also mark that down to the Lorist detecting her sister, which is how I read it, but again, two different PoVs, right?

The Infested Ancients, if they were truly Orokin in origin, have to be at least 400 years old, if not older, since that's the last time that the Orokin were recorded as alive. It's possible that in subsequent years the Orokin gradually were consumed by the Infested and that would make sense, but I would peg them to be at least 300 or so years old, with a fairly liberal estimate. They'd have to be much, much stronger if self-replication is in fact a thing, and they'd have to be a hell of a lot less common than they are now. Logically speaking it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

The J3's age is nailed down somewhat, though, and it has to be younger than Lephantis because Jordas was the Cephalon for a Corpus ship. That much is implied at least in the Infested Runner's synthesis entry. So we can peg him at, oh, around 200 years of age, maybe a little more or less, giving the Corpus time to build an empire that could make it out to Eris. 

Which, at the very least, is significantly younger than Lephantis, who as you will recall has no problems busting out of his cage's roof. He is very strong, true, but if he could have broken out of his cell at any time--by blowing out the ceiling of it--why didn't he? Furthermore, before the fight Lephantis communicates with us on the same somatic wavelength, asking us why we defile them and that sorta stuff. In my mind Lephantis is not just strong, but also intelligent (see talking to the Tenno, much like Phorid and the like), so why couldn't have been bothered to leave? What kept him in the Derelict if he was clearly strong enough to leave whenever he chose? 

The design of Lephantis feels somewhat abortive in terms of the lore. If he's really over 400 years old--which he has to be, since he was created during the Old War--why are there elements of modern Grineer and Corpus design in his model? Those didn't really exist back during that time, and unless the hive mind theory is accurate Lephantis never would have had the opportunity to confront or even assimilate that into his own design. If you look inside his chamber there's no remains, just Infested tissue pretty much everywhere. If he really has been self-replicating for centuries--which implies that he hasn't really been getting new material lately--why would those features exist on his model? And if the hive mind were really to be a thing, much like a Gravemind, why would it choose to pick the heads of both as its weakpoints? What strategic or biological purpose does having three heads involve? 

In my opinion, if the lore is actually that important to DE (and I would argue that the inclusion of cinematic quests and their new focus would indicate as much) Lephantis needs either a rework or at least more attention. There's simply too much we don't know about him and the idea that he couldn't leave doesn't hold water because he can, especially if he gives himself more room to replicate (by, say, blowing out the roof of his cell). I think that with the suddenly increased focus on the Infested this is a good opportunity to do it. 

Given that the ancient they were fighting was their sister, and that ancient and the infested with it were killed by the other presence, it would make no sense if it was their sister again. The only way it would begin to make sense is if it was another infested healer, but then why would it kill its own? The flash of silver ("silver" is not good to describe color compared to describing material AND color, and infested rarely have reflective, bright metal material in their makeup) is what leads me to decide it would have to be a Warframe, and the only main healer Warframe we had at that time would have been Trinity Prime.

If you would have read what me and Lee went over before a few times now, infested retain the genetic blueprint of the things they infest. They are the Borg of Warframe, essentially. They can make ancients at will, and it logically HAS to be the only way considering they appear anywhere the infested show up at. Infestation start out as spores in most places and grows from there, it has zero possible ways outside of crashing infested organic material into ships, stations, or planets to spread via a living unit that has already existed for a long time period. That explains how they can be common, how they can appear all over, how they aren't all centuries old, and how they aren't as strong as the boss enemies.

We also have no definitive timeline for how long the Orokin empire has been collapsed. Also the Tenno did not kill all the Orokin, we only killed off the elite ruling and commanding members of the society. To kill off ALL the Orokin we would have almost made the solar system devoid of sentient (not Sentient) life. The corpus (not Corpus as a stand alone faction) and the grineer workers all existed at that time as well. They were servants of the Orokin and considered a part of that empire. Alad V himself is directly stated to be Orokin, and yet he is alive and well. Thus, the Tenno did not kill every Orokin and instead destroyed the Orokin as an EMPIRE. To do that, they took out the ruling elite that had the power and corruption. From a lore standpoint, the Sentients through Natah (to us known as Lotus) only needed us to destroy the empire's control and it would collapse on itself, which it did to a glorious level.

Jordas can in fact be older than the collapse of the empire since there is no definitive timeline when he started his operations beyond Eris. The chaos of the collapse would actually have made it easier for him to function without being detected by a large force. The corpus did have their own ships, they were a smaller sub faction of the empire and largely traded among their colonies. Few of them actually gained high standing in the empire, it was a corpus Archimedian that created the entities that became the Sentients, after all. Also considering that Jordas consumes the other ships he encounters then overwrites that ship's Cephalon with a copy of his own. He'd be able to have started out as a smaller ship and upgrade as he went. He could have just been a smaller cargo craft at the start, expanding into a larger vessel that we now find him in.

Lephantis didn't have too large of a reason to break out of its cell, nor do we know if it easily could have before. The material may not have been weakened enough to break for a significant amount of time, and since it was a weapon for use in the war, the containment cell to hold it must have been designed with containment in mind. It is also too large to travel through the tiny hallways, and probably had been for a long time, making that area be the only location it could fit in. Expanding that area would just mean it could grow larger, but still remain enclosed. Without a goal or threat strong enough, it would have no reason to expand. Next, the Grineer and Corpus existed in that time (not sure where you got the idea they didn't), so yes they very well could have over the entire time of the ship being derelict been killed and incorporated. For the self-replication part, it doesn't require a new body to be developed. That can easily be self-replication on a cellular level, and a body would just be organic material to use so the bodies would have been re-incorporated anyways. The weakpoints are more of a game mechanic to make the fight not be a cheese-fest, Lephantis IS the size of a barn, but it also covers its weakpoints as a form of protection so there is that to consider. Lastly three heads gives the infested unit three points of attacks to go from, as well as have the strengths of all three.

I cant argue that DE could do with polishing Lephantis up or expanding on its story, but the idea that it could leave has been shot down by the size of the hallways that it could not have fit down.

Edited January 4, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Angrados]

29 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Given that the ancient they were fighting was their sister, and that ancient and the infested with it were killed by the other presence, it would make no sense if it was their sister again. The only way it would begin to make sense is if it was another infested healer, but then why would it kill its own? The flash of silver ("silver" is not good to describe color compared to describing material AND color, and infested rarely have reflective, bright metal material in their makeup) is what leads me to decide it would have to be a Warframe, and the only main healer Warframe we had at that time would have been Trinity Prime.

If you would have read what me and Lee went over before a few times now, infested retain the genetic blueprint of the things they infest. They are the Borg of Warframe, essentially. They can make ancients at will, and it logically HAS to be the only way considering they appear anywhere the infested show up at. Infestation start out as spores in most places and grows from there, it has zero possible ways outside of crashing infested organic material into ships, stations, or planets to spread via a living unit that has already existed for a long time period. That explains how they can be common, how they can appear all over, how they aren't all centuries old, and how they aren't as strong as the boss enemies.

We also have no definitive timeline for how long the Orokin empire has been collapsed. Also the Tenno did not kill all the Orokin, we only killed off the elite ruling and commanding members of the society. To kill off ALL the Orokin we would have almost made the solar system devoid of sentient (not Sentient) life. The corpus (not Corpus as a stand alone faction) and the grineer workers all existed at that time as well. They were servants of the Orokin and considered a part of that empire. Alad V himself is directly stated to be Orokin, and yet he is alive and well. Thus, the Tenno did not kill every Orokin and instead destroyed the Orokin as an EMPIRE. To do that, they took out the ruling elite that had the power and corruption. From a lore standpoint, the Sentients through Natah (to us known as Lotus) only needed us to destroy the empire's control and it would collapse on itself, which it did to a glorious level.

Jordas can in fact be older than the collapse of the empire since there is no definitive timeline when he started his operations beyond Eris. The chaos of the collapse would actually have made it easier for him to function without being detected by a large force. The corpus did have their own ships, they were a smaller sub faction of the empire and largely traded among their colonies. Few of them actually gained high standing in the empire, it was a corpus Archimedian that created the entities that became the Sentients, after all. Also considering that Jordas consumes the other ships he encounters then overwrites that ship's Cephalon with a copy of his own. He'd be able to have started out as a smaller ship and upgrade as he went. He could have just been a smaller cargo craft at the start, expanding into a larger vessel that we now find him in.

Lephantis didn't have too large of a reason to break out of its cell, nor do we know if it easily could have before. The material may not have been weakened enough to break for a significant amount of time, and since it was a weapon for use in the war, the containment cell to hold it must have been designed with containment in mind. It is also too large to travel through the tiny hallways, and probably had been for a long time, making that area be the only location it could fit in. Expanding that area would just mean it could grow larger, but still remain enclosed. Without a goal or threat strong enough, it would have no reason to expand. Next, the Grineer and Corpus existed in that time (not sure where you got the idea they didn't), so yes they very well could have over the entire time of the ship being derelict been killed and incorporated. For the self-replication part, it doesn't require a new body to be developed. That can easily be self-replication on a cellular level, and a body would just be organic material to use so the bodies would have been re-incorporated anyways. The weakpoints are more of a game mechanic to make the fight not be a cheese-fest, Lephantis IS the size of a barn, but it also covers its weakpoints as a form of protection so there is that to consider. Lastly three heads gives the infested unit three points of attacks to go from, as well as have the strengths of all three.

I cant argue that DE could do with polishing Lephantis up or expanding on its story, but the idea that it could leave has been shot down by the size of the hallways that it could not have fit down.

1. Granted, and conceded. That makes sense.

2. No, I understood what you guys were talking about (I believe, anyway). It makes sense, and it's actually on that premise that I'm taking issue with the idea that the Infestation can somehow synthesize and replicate Ancients at will. What I'm saying is that there would be no way to synthesize the needed material for Ancients without having the source material on hand (if I understood your argument correctly) because the Orokin hierarchs were genetically unique. Though the Infestation may have the template for it, it would lack the materials, if that makes any sense, at least, logically in my mind. Thus, Ancients would need to be formed from the original Orokin, which is why it's problematic that we mow through probably hundreds of thousands of them every day, collectively.

3. As far as I'm aware, it's been only several hundred years since the collapse of the Orokin Empire. I'm working on pulling sources for it currently, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and we move on. I'm basing my logical process on the assumption that around 400 years has passed since the fall of the Orokin Empire, but theoretically you could unmoor the timeline from any concrete reasoning and still come to the same conclusions. I'll get to that in a moment.

4. I'm aware that the Grineer and the Corpus existed. I'm going to read that entire bit as you misunderstanding my post, which I will attempt to clarify since it was apparently confusing. 

5. On the subject of Alad V, technically speaking the Corpus in general are the direct descendants of the Orokin, or as close as you can get. There's implications in the first Moa synthesis that they were also clones at the time, and the shift from cloning to more natural methods of reproduction are what led to their fall from grace as a species, if you will. There is no indication that Alad V is "Orokin" beyond that he is Corpus, and if the Elder Queen is anything to compare to Alad V would not be nearly in as good of condition as he is if he was truly Orokin after having lived for that long.

6. On the subject of the Fall of the Orokin leadership, this is true and backed up by the Synthesis fragments. However, when we speak of the Orokin we don't talk about the corpus or the grineer clones. We talk about the Golden Ones, the genetically enhanced Orokin that stood above the rest. Perhaps I should have further defined it that way in order to obviate confusion, since it seems we were working on uncertain terms.

7. I have to disagree on the idea that Jordas's operations could have begun before the fall, and there is good reason to do so. All of the ships surrounding Eris (and beyond Eris, as far as we're aware) are purely Corpus technology. There are no Orokin Towers floating around out there, or even Grineer towers, which lends more credence to the idea that Jordas was a product of the post-fall due to a lack of evidence to the contrary. If you were to point to Orokin Derelicts out on Eris as proof, I would be a lot more willing to see the logic of it, but without solid evidence of the Infestation not having taken root after the Fall, specifically in the tech of the Corpus, out on Eris, I don't believe that this is a defensible point. 

8. To touch on your point about the corpus and their role in the Empire, they were its subjects. As I understand the term "corpus" is also a unit for family, as the Executors refer to that Archimedean's corpus when he seeks to challenge them. To go back to your idea of removing the leadership (and I'm about to use a pun to illustrate my point) if the Orokin's Golden Ones were the heads of the Empire, the corpus was its body (pun fully intended). I refer to the Corpus as a singular entity because it is one body, one group, one faction (abeit the largest one, by the looks of it) of the Empire, as you pointed out. That doesn't mean that they functioned with autonomy (because there exists no indication of that, in fact, the Detron Crewman synthesis seems to indicate the exact opposite), much less operated with their own technology. I can't see the Orokin allowing much travel outside of their own ships if they could help it, and maybe they couldn't and the Corpus did have their own fleet. However, if that was the case I'd be willing to bet it was heavily regulated and monitored closely by the Orokin, so if ships were to start mysteriously popping out of existence over by Eris they'd take note and dispatch troops accordingly. The idea still doesn't hold water, even if we do take into account that the Corpus could have had their own ships.

9. And we return to Lephantis, the beastie that completely derailed this thread (which I am completely, utterly, and totally sorry for doing. Hopefully we can draw it to a close here and let the topic get back on topic). I'll begin with the idea that Lephantis couldnt move through the ship. I acknowledge this, as Lephantis is a 60-foot-tall three-headed behemoth looking to assimilate all in its path. What I don't understand is why it didn't grow to assimilate the entire ship around it rather than remain cocooned inside of its own little bubble, which it busted out of pretty easily (and probably had been capable of doing so for a while). It's easy to forget that the Technocyte virus is both a technological and biological corruption, and it's more than likely that Lephantis could have evolved to control both with relative ease, especially given the time frame. I mean, if Jordas can do it in a comparatively shorter time span than Lephantis, why not Lephantis? There's infested growths all over the place already, why doesn't he tap into that?

Now, to address the idea of the corpus and the Grineer "not existing" during the Old War. If you go back and read my post, carefully, I never claimed that they didn't. Or at least, if I did I was greatly mistaken. They did exist, but what my question towards him having two seperate heads devoted to each was whether or not those designs in terms of armor existed during that time period. How long have the Corpus been walking around with cereal boxes on their heads? How long have the Grineer been using that bulky battle armor that obscures most everything except for their face? Both of those are elements that play out in the design of their respective heads, but I have a hard time reconciling that with a creature that's been around for... well, at least several centuries. You'd think that the technology of the Corpus at the very least would have moved forward, and the Grineer probably didn't have that advanced of battle armor back when Lephantis was first conceived. If anything this gives stronger evidence towards the proposed Compound Mind idea that was presented earlier. 

That said, the Compound Mind idea also has flaws when it comes to Lephantis. Specifically, why did the Compound Mind decide that Lephantis needed three heads? I mean, it does give him a full 360 degree field of view, but Lephantis's defenses are somewhat lacking. He has a scythe, a thingy that shoots poison pods and... another thingy that shoots pods that spawn Infested. That's about the degree of his defenses/offensive capabilities. For a weapon of the Old War Lephantis comes across as pretty underwhelming once you get over the initial shock factor of a 60-foot-tall beastie living in the basement. He could definitely use some more love, and I wouldn't be unhappy with some sort of rework or redesign if it were to ever come down the pike (which, if I'm going to be brutally self-aware, it probably won't).

10. The idea that the design is for more gameplay than lore is a valid one, but it also falls apart when the battle consists of Lephantis playing an extended game of peek-a-boo with his heads. There probably could have been better ways to do it than that, if I'm going to be honest, and I think that the entire boss battle would benefit from another look (which, again, will likely never happen/not happen for a very, very long time). 

Hopefully that all clarified my points a little bit. It's late and I'm not very good at articulating when I'm tired, so if there's anything that needs clarifying let me know. I'll be back in the morning.

[Xarteros]

8 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

This is an unfinished system. At present, the system only produces a singular unit. There is nothing to say whatsoever that there will not be other units we might spawn from the cyst, or that the cyst spawning kubrow is the entirety of the planned system, which would be silly to think due to everything present within the room where Helminth resides.

You can't make an argument that a system makes perfect sense when it isn't complete. 

It's a bad idea regardless. There's no reason to require Kubrow eggs whatsoever. Even if they had any number of possible outcome (runners, crawlers, ancients etc) it would still be a bad idea. Instead of using Kubrow eggs, they should add something new in, or make them use Mutagen Masses instead of eggs, or even use Pherliac pods or something. The Technocyte virus can infest electronic equipment too, so why not just drain your cyst into a Warframe Neuroptics, or need 1000 circuits and 10 control modules or something?

There is literally no reason whatsoever to require kubrow eggs if it has nothing to do with kubrow. If it just needs 'a blank genetic template" then DE should have added either Kavat or Kubrow breeding options that both result in Helminth Chargers.

bad idea is bad.

[ObviousLee]

2 hours ago, Xarteros said:

You can't make an argument that a system makes perfect sense when it isn't complete. 

It's a bad idea regardless. There's no reason to require Kubrow eggs whatsoever. Even if they had any number of possible outcome (runners, crawlers, ancients etc) it would still be a bad idea. Instead of using Kubrow eggs, they should add something new in, or make them use Mutagen Masses instead of eggs, or even use Pherliac pods or something. The Technocyte virus can infest electronic equipment too, so why not just drain your cyst into a Warframe Neuroptics, or need 1000 circuits and 10 control modules or something?

There is literally no reason whatsoever to require kubrow eggs if it has nothing to do with kubrow. If it just needs 'a blank genetic template" then DE should have added either Kavat or Kubrow breeding options that both result in Helminth Chargers.

bad idea is bad.

there's no reason for an egg, which is baseline genetic material? you want them to use already infested material(mutagen masses) to make an infested? Pherliac pods? which are harvested from juggies for an entirely different purpose than reproduction? Drain onto a warframe neuroptic? so pour infested material on inert infested material? your right, it makes no sense that you use the exact same item in your orbiter to make any and all companions, even though no egg is used for kavats, just genetic codes. 

and yes, one CAN say something makes sense when you're only accounting for the lore aspect(which was declared in the OP) and you're discounting the game mechanics due to A:unfinished system mechanics and B: game mechanics do not equate to lore. i'm hoping you're capable of understanding that, otherwise we're wasting our time here.

there is plenty of reasoning why. had you actually read what was posted carefully, you'd understand that. 

Know your lore before making responses, unless you're being like @Angrados and having a genuine conversation with people in the thread.

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by ObviousLee

[Angrados]

2 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

there's no reason for an egg, which is baseline genetic material? you want them to use already infested material(mutagen masses) to make an infested? Pherliac pods? which are harvested from juggies for an entirely different purpose than reproduction? Drain onto a warframe neuroptic? so pour infested material on inert infested material? your right, it makes no sense that you use the exact same item in your orbiter to make any and all companions, even though no egg is used for kavats, just genetic codes. 

and yes, one CAN say something makes sense when you're only accounting for the lore aspect(which was declared in the OP) and you're discounting the game mechanics due to A:unfinished system mechanics and B: game mechanics do not equate to lore. i'm hoping you're capable of understanding that, otherwise we're wasting our time here.

there is plenty of reasoning why. had you actually read what was posted carefully, you'd understand that. 

Know your lore before making responses, unless you're being like @Angrados and having a genuine conversation with people in the thread.

 

*implying that I don't know my lore* ._.

You're probably not wrong, though, a reread of the lore fragments in the game wouldn't go amiss on my part. I never could find any evidence talking about the few centuries bit, but I do get the feeling that it's about that time frame. Why, I'm not sure, but if I run across anything I'll let you know about it. 

[NeithanDiniem]

11 hours ago, Angrados said:

<snip>

2: The Orokin would not have any thing specifically unique to then that would prevent the Infestation from replicating it. Its just organic material and technology integrated into it that when infested created a useful weapon distinct from what they already had. There isn't any indication that the Orokin had some specific element or void-energy power unique to them that couldn't be replicated. The infested only need the basic materials and then can build more sophisticated structures and organs from that. Even if there was some unique little bit of them that couldn't be remade, the infested could easily just ignore or even purge that and use what remained.

4: I'll admit I read that part wrong, you specified the modern look of them. However there is nothing at all hinting at them changing their appearance drastically in that time span. Their descriptions remain fairly accurate in the lore we have that describes them at that point in time, so there isn't much to hint that they would have changed. The armor the Grineer had worked for its function, and they did not have the brains to really go about designing new ones. Also Lephantis did not only get its material to form the three heads at the start of its isolation in the derelict. Grineer and Corpus likely had located the ship and went aboard to salvage what they could and fell victim to the infestation, providing the victims needed for Lephy to grow on and increase the numbers of the infestation present. Lephantis had in your timeline 400 years to collect material to form itself into that 3 headed monstrosity. Seems to be plenty of time for it to get a hold of more modern Grineer and Corpus. Also remember, if they are a hive mind, the information for the modern units would be known to Lephantis anyways, and if it provided any advantage over its old form it could always improve itself.

5: The line of Alad being "Orokin" is based on Hunhow's dialog. Granted this is most likely hunhow regarding former subjects of the empire as a part of that empire still, but since we have no direct knowledge on how old Alad V is, how long ago the collapse was, nor how long it took for Orokin elite to fully die off, he could still have had ties with Orokin command in the past. Id also regard the Corpus as the successors of the empire, not the descendants.

6: It isn't known if all those that were Orokin in blood were actually all genetically enhanced, used kuva to gain immortality, or were in positions of power. The Orokin would have had their own civilians that were not members of the corpuses or colonies.

7: The Derelicts are in fact around Eris by lore, and we have no knowledge if Orokin towers were there or not since we are only told that all REMAINING towers are around Mercury. Other planets very well could have had towers that were destroyed, making prime salvage locations, or were taken into the void to escape the consequences of the war. Next the Infestation was released as a weapon against the Sentients before the Orokin turned to using the Tenno, so there very well was an infested presence loose in the system before the fall of the Orokin. And the Orokin lose ships quite often, just look into the lore behind the Zariman, they mention that ships get lost in the void jumps often enough that the Zariman was no major surprise. They really didn't even investigate it much considering the closed the case based on the thought that the ships that get lost in the fold never return. And if it were a corpus ship, as you mentioned, it would not have been of their concern much since it was not an Orokin ship. The corpus were only a small trading group of colonies at that point, and hardly worth troubling over a lost ship here and there. Only if the ship had something of importance to the Orokin would they have bothered to look. Also there is the fact that this would have been started during the War, so the loss of a few smaller ships could easily have been missed in the chaos. The corpus also was based in the outer regions of the system, compared to the inner regions. That would point to them having been at Eris at the time as possible.

9: Lephantis was isolated in the Derelict, and we have no knowledge on if the ship was capable of movement anymore so there may have not been a reason for Lephantis to even bother with expanding. It likely was more focused on maintaining itself, killing anything that came across the location in the hopes of spreading the infestation to new places, and releasing infested spores into space. The Hive would have no use for it just growing for the sake of growing when focus could instead lie elsewhere. Jordas on the other hand was mobile and having a Cephalon it could lure new targets in. Opens up a lot more possibility. Lastly the Orokin structures appear to be more resilient to being broken down by the infestation, look at how the infested bits follow the tree-like wires of the Orokin ships compared to on the corpus ships where it can more easily flow around and integrate with the hulls. There is reason to believe that the Orokin used the same kind of bomb as in Once Awake to clear all organic matter from their ships and towers that were hit by the infestation, hence why the towers are all empty of life outside the corrupted serving the neural sentry. Had the deployment of some of these bombs not gone to plan properly the infestation could have taken root in the now-dead hulks of the derelicts but had limited ability to spread as fast as they could on un-purged ships like the corpus's. Lephantis's combat abilities were tailored to the environment, which was minimal and isolated. For its purpose it had done exceedingly well there considering it managed to live so long and incorporate so much bio material. It being a weapon of the old war isn't much to go on since it clearly evolved a significant amount since then. It wouldn't of had any of the heads or their methods of attack in the old war. For all we know it was just a pod of infested material designed to be detonated and released against the Sentients in the hopes that the infestation within would take root and begin developing units on the field.

10: This is Lehpantis's fight showing his age. Back when he released the fight wasn't that easy since a lot of the mods we enjoy now didn't exist or were rarer, weapons were a LOT simpler, and the mechanics were quite different than what we have upgraded to.

Edited January 4, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Bug24]

2 hours ago, Angrados said:

*implying that I don't know my lore* ._.

You're probably not wrong, though, a reread of the lore fragments in the game wouldn't go amiss on my part. I never could find any evidence talking about the few centuries bit, but I do get the feeling that it's about that time frame. Why, I'm not sure, but if I run across anything I'll let you know about it. 

Just to clarify, he was not implying that you don't know your lore. He was actually crediting you as a contributor to the discussion.

[Angrados]

43 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

 

11 hours ago, Angrados said:

<snip>

2: The Orokin would not have any thing specifically unique to then that would prevent the Infestation from replicating it. Its just organic material and technology integrated into it that when infested created a useful weapon distinct from what they already had. There isn't any indication that the Orokin had some specific element or void-energy power unique to them that couldn't be replicated. The infested only need the basic materials and then can build more sophisticated structures and organs from that. Even if there was some unique little bit of them that couldn't be remade, the infested could easily just ignore or even purge that and use what remained.

 

I disagree. Remember during the Guardsman synthesis when the Dax was surprised that Bilsa was Sectarius class? The Executors also had special genetic coding that separated them from the rest of the rabble. The usage of Kuva probably also had a part to play in that as well, but without more information on both it's hard to tell just from what we know. That said, I do acknowledge that the Infested could probably copy those genetic augmentations, though in the case of Kuva being a key factor that would be much harder to replicate. Imagine if it were something that Infested Ancients sorta just generated, like walking Kuva siphons. Eugh.

54 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

4: I'll admit I read that part wrong, you specified the modern look of them. However there is nothing at all hinting at them changing their appearance drastically in that time span. Their descriptions remain fairly accurate in the lore we have that describes them at that point in time, so there isn't much to hint that they would have changed. The armor the Grineer had worked for its function, and they did not have the brains to really go about designing new ones. Also Lephantis did not only get its material to form the three heads at the start of its isolation in the derelict. Grineer and Corpus likely had located the ship and went aboard to salvage what they could and fell victim to the infestation, providing the victims needed for Lephy to grow on and increase the numbers of the infestation present. Lephantis had in your timeline 400 years to collect material to form itself into that 3 headed monstrosity. Seems to be plenty of time for it to get a hold of more modern Grineer and Corpus. Also remember, if they are a hive mind, the information for the modern units would be known to Lephantis anyways, and if it provided any advantage over its old form it could always improve itself.

A reasonable assertion. However, I would argue that the empty and derelict Death Orbs littered above his chamber seem to indicate that he somehow manages to drag stuff to his chamber for feeding, be it through telepathic control of the Infested or some other means of controlling the Infested since, as we have both concluded, he can't fit through the rather small hallways of the Derelict. It's entirely possible that there were outside parties looking to break in and salvage what they could, but there's no definitie conclusion as to whether or not that was the case from what we have. Entirely probable, not for certain. 

On the subject of the Compound Mind, you make a very good point. However, that then raises the question of Lephantis's role within the Mind. Is he its primary intelligence, much like the Gravemind from Halo? Or is he just another outlet of that hive, another puppet being played to the tune of its goal of replication and assimilation? Hard to say, but I would say that the evidence we can see still gives us the impression that Lephantis should have more weight both in the lore and in the game than he has now. 

1 hour ago, NeithanDiniem said:

7: The Derelicts are in fact around Eris by lore, and we have no knowledge if Orokin towers were there or not since we are only told that all REMAINING towers are around Mercury. Other planets very well could have had towers that were destroyed, making prime salvage locations, or were taken into the void to escape the consequences of the war. Next the Infestation was released as a weapon against the Sentients before the Orokin turned to using the Tenno, so there very well was an infested presence loose in the system before the fall of the Orokin. And the Orokin lose ships quite often, just look into the lore behind the Zariman, they mention that ships get lost in the void jumps often enough that the Zariman was no major surprise. They really didn't even investigate it much considering the closed the case based on the thought that the ships that get lost in the fold never return. And if it were a corpus ship, as you mentioned, it would not have been of their concern much since it was not an Orokin ship. The corpus were only a small trading group of colonies at that point, and hardly worth troubling over a lost ship here and there. Only if the ship had something of importance to the Orokin would they have bothered to look. Also there is the fact that this would have been started during the War, so the loss of a few smaller ships could easily have been missed in the chaos. The corpus also was based in the outer regions of the system, compared to the inner regions. That would point to them having been at Eris at the time as possible.

On the subject of the Eris bit, I don't recall ever hearing about the Derelicts being next to Eris, especially with them floating about on the star map all willy-nilly. I readily admit that I'm somewhat newer to Warframe, having only played for a little over a year now. Was there an event with lore implications that I missed that discussed the location of the Derelicts? In other words, can you point me in the direction of where I can find that particular piece of information?

On the subject of the Towers, there are still plenty of towers in the Void, though this may have to do with, as you most appropriately addressed, them being lost in the Void. What's rather odd, though, is that the towers left in the void are immaculate. There's no people aboard other than the Corrupted serving the Neural Sentry (which we still have no idea as to its nature), though maybe this could be marked down to the Corrupted serving as glorified maids after all of the Orokin finished killing each other due to Void madness. Maybe. While the only towers left in the system may be in orbit around Mercury, there are more that exist, to be certain. After a brief check ingame, I don't see any place to find the information regarding Mercury and the Towers. It's definitely something I remember hearing, but then again, I also seem to remember the lapse in Tenno presence lasting about 400 years, so take that for what you will. 

On the subject of the Zariman, I find the idea of the Void somewhat confusing, if only as to why people try and transit through it. What's on the other side? It's not like people would transit through it to get from point A to point B, it's out in the middle of nowhere on the star chart. This is another place where I don't think we have enough development of the lore--what is the purpose of the Void, why do people transit through it, and why did the Orokin keep sending people into the Void if it kept eating their ships? That seems incredibly dumb for a hyper-advanced race of space-faring creatures. In other words, what stakes lie within the Void?

On the subject of the Zariman being a Corpus ship, I don't find that likely, since if that were the case we would probably see them or have run into them in our time exploring the Void. The only reason I can think of for us not running into them is because they are either completely empty and have nothing for us to use, or the Lotus really doesn't care for the Corpus, which I think paints the Lotus in a unfairly negative light. In terms of the lore, it would fit, but functionally there's no evidence of the Corpus taking forays into the Void beyond using Void gates (which, again, why were the Orokin so obsessed with getting into the Void?). 

Other than that the points about the Corpus having been based further out are on point and they make sense. I will concede that much, but also raise the question as to Eris itself, since we don't know anything about its surface. I imagine it's completely overrun by Infested at this point, but I also what to know what that looks like and why nobody has bothered to try and deal with it. 

1 hour ago, NeithanDiniem said:

9: Lephantis was isolated in the Derelict, and we have no knowledge on if the ship was capable of movement anymore so there may have not been a reason for Lephantis to even bother with expanding. It likely was more focused on maintaining itself, killing anything that came across the location in the hopes of spreading the infestation to new places, and releasing infested spores into space. The Hive would have no use for it just growing for the sake of growing when focus could instead lie elsewhere. Jordas on the other hand was mobile and having a Cephalon it could lure new targets in. Opens up a lot more possibility. Lastly the Orokin structures appear to be more resilient to being broken down by the infestation, look at how the infested bits follow the tree-like wires of the Orokin ships compared to on the corpus ships where it can more easily flow around and integrate with the hulls. There is reason to believe that the Orokin used the same kind of bomb as in Once Awake to clear all organic matter from their ships and towers that were hit by the infestation, hence why the towers are all empty of life outside the corrupted serving the neural sentry. Had the deployment of some of these bombs not gone to plan properly the infestation could have taken root in the now-dead hulks of the derelicts but had limited ability to spread as fast as they could on un-purged ships like the corpus's. Lephantis's combat abilities were tailored to the environment, which was minimal and isolated. For its purpose it had done exceedingly well there considering it managed to live so long and incorporate so much bio material. It being a weapon of the old war isn't much to go on since it clearly evolved a significant amount since then. It wouldn't of had any of the heads or their methods of attack in the old war. For all we know it was just a pod of infested material designed to be detonated and released against the Sentients in the hopes that the infestation within would take root and begin developing units on the field.

The Lotus calls Lephantis the source vector for the sector, which feels and sounds highly ambiguous. Is she referring to the Origin system? The field of Derelicts? Whatever the case, Lephantis was and is supposed to be a big deal. The Compound Mind may have dispensed with Lephantis once they found a new shiny to play with (see Jordas), which would make sense, but at the same time that also denies the idea that Lephantis seems to have a larger role to play, which also doesn't appear to be the case. I guess what can be taken away from this debate is that Lephantis needs some love from the Devs, in a lot of different ways, which is something you touched on in your tenth point as well. 

22 minutes ago, Bug24 said:

Just to clarify, he was not implying that you don't know your lore. He was actually crediting you as a contributor to the discussion.

I know, at the time I was a little irritable since it was late and I hadn't slept in a while. I do appreciate the recognition, and I think I was hoping to come across as tongue in cheek when I wrote it. I do appreciate the credit, though, as it means that I'm doing this whole forums thing right imo.

[NeithanDiniem]

8 minutes ago, Angrados said:

I disagree. Remember during the Guardsman synthesis when the Dax was surprised that Bilsa was Sectarius class? The Executors also had special genetic coding that separated them from the rest of the rabble. The usage of Kuva probably also had a part to play in that as well, but without more information on both it's hard to tell just from what we know. That said, I do acknowledge that the Infested could probably copy those genetic augmentations, though in the case of Kuva being a key factor that would be much harder to replicate. Imagine if it were something that Infested Ancients sorta just generated, like walking Kuva siphons. Eugh.

We do not know yet if Kuva was used for all of the Orokin military commanders or of it was more restricted to the governing class members. However kuva as far as we can tell is only used for "gaining immortality" as it were, possibly a factor in transference. The infested have no need for kuva and could probably just ignore that.

8 minutes ago, Angrados said:

A reasonable assertion. However, I would argue that the empty and derelict Death Orbs littered above his chamber seem to indicate that he somehow manages to drag stuff to his chamber for feeding, be it through telepathic control of the Infested or some other means of controlling the Infested since, as we have both concluded, he can't fit through the rather small hallways of the Derelict. It's entirely possible that there were outside parties looking to break in and salvage what they could, but there's no definitie conclusion as to whether or not that was the case from what we have. Entirely probable, not for certain.

The Derelicts often have Corpus and Grineer incursions in them, where they can appear during the mission. This is likely evidence of the factions attempting to secure the area for a salvage mission.

8 minutes ago, Angrados said:

On the subject of the Eris bit, I don't recall ever hearing about the Derelicts being next to Eris, especially with them floating about on the star map all willy-nilly. I readily admit that I'm somewhat newer to Warframe, having only played for a little over a year now. Was there an event with lore implications that I missed that discussed the location of the Derelicts? In other words, can you point me in the direction of where I can find that particular piece of information?

Eris and Europa both once had the same planet description in-game, that of "The Infested are spreading throughout the Orokin Derelicts in this region." Giving rise to the idea that since Europa has been retcon'd to not be an infested planet and have its own unique description, that the remaining infested Derelicts we explore are around Eris for the time being.

8 minutes ago, Angrados said:

On the subject of the Towers, there are still plenty of towers in the Void, though this may have to do with, as you most appropriately addressed, them being lost in the Void. What's rather odd, though, is that the towers left in the void are immaculate. There's no people aboard other than the Corrupted serving the Neural Sentry (which we still have no idea as to its nature), though maybe this could be marked down to the Corrupted serving as glorified maids after all of the Orokin finished killing each other due to Void madness. Maybe. While the only towers left in the system may be in orbit around Mercury, there are more that exist, to be certain. After a brief check ingame, I don't see any place to find the information regarding Mercury and the Towers. It's definitely something I remember hearing, but then again, I also seem to remember the lapse in Tenno presence lasting about 400 years, so take that for what you will.

This again is based on Mercury's old planet description in-game, but it has since been replaced with the more updated description we have now. The towers I would guess were not originally built to stay in the void, but to provide a protective fortification around planets. They were moved into the void probably during the Sentient's attack or the subsequent infested outbreak to avoid them or to further secure the fortifications. This plan seems to have backfired, and may relate to the bombs the Orokin would have used against the infested to wipe out all organic matter and leave everything else intact. Or as you said, it may just be the tower cleaned up the remains of the dead.

8 minutes ago, Angrados said:

On the subject of the Zariman, I find the idea of the Void somewhat confusing, if only as to why people try and transit through it. What's on the other side? It's not like people would transit through it to get from point A to point B, it's out in the middle of nowhere on the star chart. This is another place where I don't think we have enough development of the lore--what is the purpose of the Void, why do people transit through it, and why did the Orokin keep sending people into the Void if it kept eating their ships? That seems incredibly dumb for a hyper-advanced race of space-faring creatures. In other words, what stakes lie within the Void?

Think of the Void as a shortcut. All long-distance travel goes through the void via Solar rails. You travel from point A to B via the "highway" between that is in the void. You don't travel to a place in the void unless that place is held within a shielded bubble in the void, like the towers or Lua was. Otherwise the Void would be largely unnavigable and you'd get lost pretty darn good. The void is the space between spaces, essentially, but it is a place in and of itself. The easiest way I can describe it is its a dimension that we go into to rapidly travel between points. As stupid as it sounds its like the Nether in Minecraft. The Orokin don't send people there, they send people through it because its the only means of time efficient travel. The few that get lost are insignificant to an empire of possibly trillions of individuals. The fact that the Void on the star chart is off to one side is just a game mechanic, its not at that specific location, its everywhere.

8 minutes ago, Angrados said:

On the subject of the Zariman being a Corpus ship, I don't find that likely, since if that were the case we would probably see them or have run into them in our time exploring the Void. The only reason I can think of for us not running into them is because they are either completely empty and have nothing for us to use, or the Lotus really doesn't care for the Corpus, which I think paints the Lotus in a unfairly negative light. In terms of the lore, it would fit, but functionally there's no evidence of the Corpus taking forays into the Void beyond using Void gates (which, again, why were the Orokin so obsessed with getting into the Void?).

I actually didn't say that the Zariman was a corpus ship, I said it was lost in the fold and since the Orokin had never once found a ship again once it had been lost to it, they didn't investigate it much further beyond informing the families of those on board.

8 minutes ago, Angrados said:

Other than that the points about the Corpus having been based further out are on point and they make sense. I will concede that much, but also raise the question as to Eris itself, since we don't know anything about its surface. I imagine it's completely overrun by Infested at this point, but I also what to know what that looks like and why nobody has bothered to try and deal with it.

Eris probably isn't worth the trouble of dealing with the Infested at this point since all it has to offer is a single Corpus research facility on the surface.

8 minutes ago, Angrados said:

The Lotus calls Lephantis the source vector for the sector, which feels and sounds highly ambiguous. Is she referring to the Origin system? The field of Derelicts? Whatever the case, Lephantis was and is supposed to be a big deal. The Compound Mind may have dispensed with Lephantis once they found a new shiny to play with (see Jordas), which would make sense, but at the same time that also denies the idea that Lephantis seems to have a larger role to play, which also doesn't appear to be the case. I guess what can be taken away from this debate is that Lephantis needs some love from the Devs, in a lot of different ways, which is something you touched on in your tenth point as well.

Lephantis may have been the original source of the infested in that sector of space, making him be the "breeding ground" for spreading the spores of infestation through space. Jordas was just another means to securing the area around the planet in a more mobile fashion, possibly with the goal of building a force to send to other planets and stations and smashing the infested ship mass into the surface, letting them have a foothold in high numbers.

Yes, he needs some good lovin to make him more important, I wont disagree.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

to the OP, I personally think that while your post is well thought out, its still a matter of opinion. As others have said, the infested adapt from available material, its all personal headcannon when u believe they'd create inorganic material like grineer armor from organic material. Its neither supported or denied by lore. As far as the game models, that can either be viewed as supporting this theory or for the sake of game optimization and needing less resources for something that until now didn't get called into question that much. But either way thats a viewpoint n is opinion based.i personally feel its optimization. I feel like while a large portion of your analysis is true, the hive mind is a) less involved in the mutation process and b) is unlikely to produce matter which is not like that which its adapting. Basically that while its true that theres a hive mind and that the infestation carries blueprints of how to mutate things, its going to mutate a grineer lancer into a charger and a corpus into a runner. It'll change moas into mutalist moas, etc. It wont turn a grineer into a mutalist moa or a moa into a flying mutalist. I also feel like those blueprints are carried virally and the mutation happens in order to link to the hive mind, I dont believe its linked until its already decided what form to mutate to and achieved that form. Once that occurs, a) the infested then can transmit its "blueprint" to the hive mind if its formed from something new and b) the infested can then over time continue to mutate and particularly old infested, like lephantis, become unique. Furthermore, if it didn't work this way, I doubt the infested would be referred to as "strains" like a virus. I also think its quite possible that what we keep calling a hivemind might truely be as simple as a sense of each other that stems from the biological need for the invested strain to analyze nearby creatures in order to infect/mutate them.

so in my opinion, the grineer armored charger doesn't make sense with helminthe, not even slightly. Its not an infected grineer, and its not the same strain of the virus. Its wrong on multiple levels, was done as as way of shooting multiple birds with one stone for optimization purposes, was an attempt to give people requesting a charger skin what they wanted (even though I guarantee most of those people would pay plat for a skin) to give a new breed of pet (could have been way better than an ability from 2 previous breeds) and to combine the two in order to not need a new model for something that should be unique or as others have said, a juggernaut skin. I'm down for optimizing things to more effectively produce content, but this is just cutting corners to get it out the door before the end of the year without any sort of quality control.

[Tora.Prime]

Don't search lore where there is not, the helminth charger is just an unfinished project of DE, that's all

[ObviousLee]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

to the OP, I personally think that while your post is well thought out, its still a matter of opinion. As others have said, the infested adapt from available material, its all personal headcannon when u believe they'd create inorganic material like grineer armor from organic material. Its neither supported or denied by lore. As far as the game models, that can either be viewed as supporting this theory or for the sake of game optimization and needing less resources for something that until now didn't get called into question that much. But either way thats a viewpoint n is opinion based.i personally feel its optimization. I feel like while a large portion of your analysis is true, the hive mind is a) less involved in the mutation process and b) is unlikely to produce matter which is not like that which its adapting. Basically that while its true that theres a hive mind and that the infestation carries blueprints of how to mutate things, its going to mutate a grineer lancer into a charger and a corpus into a runner. It'll change moas into mutalist moas, etc. It wont turn a grineer into a mutalist moa or a moa into a flying mutalist. I also feel like those blueprints are carried virally and the mutation happens in order to link to the hive mind, I dont believe its linked until its already decided what form to mutate to and achieved that form. Once that occurs, a) the infested then can transmit its "blueprint" to the hive mind if its formed from something new and b) the infested can then over time continue to mutate and particularly old infested, like lephantis, become unique. Furthermore, if it didn't work this way, I doubt the infested would be referred to as "strains" like a virus. I also think its quite possible that what we keep calling a hivemind might truely be as simple as a sense of each other that stems from the biological need for the invested strain to analyze nearby creatures in order to infect/mutate them.

so in my opinion, the grineer armored charger doesn't make sense with helminthe, not even slightly. Its not an infected grineer, and its not the same strain of the virus. Its wrong on multiple levels, was done as as way of shooting multiple birds with one stone for optimization purposes, was an attempt to give people requesting a charger skin what they wanted (even though I guarantee most of those people would pay plat for a skin) to give a new breed of pet (could have been way better than an ability from 2 previous breeds) and to combine the two in order to not need a new model for something that should be unique or as others have said, a juggernaut skin. I'm down for optimizing things to more effectively produce content, but this is just cutting corners to get it out the door before the end of the year without any sort of quality control.

Fragment Lore
The Infestation spreads across the Origin System – a techno-organic parasite that attaches itself to natural and synthetic forms, slowly digesting the host subject and transforming it on a molecular level. Organic materials morph into new homogeneous organisms while harder, inorganic materials, like metals, will change structurally into a pseudo-organic substance that holds the characteristics of its previous forms. 

this is taken directly from the infestation fragment. you can see here that any effective material encountered is not safe from being digested/converted into mass that can be replicated within the infestation. It is possible, admittedly, that several oversights occurred in the process of implementation, but at the same time the lore also supports the theory within this thread. we're here to discuss that, using game lore and actual biology and genetics to help "flesh" out the logic behind the helminthe charger.

1 hour ago, Tora.Prime said:

Don't search lore where there is not, the helminth charger is just an unfinished project of DE, that's all

sources to back up this dictation?

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

3 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Fragment Lore
The Infestation spreads across the Origin System – a techno-organic parasite that attaches itself to natural and synthetic forms, slowly digesting the host subject and transforming it on a molecular level. Organic materials morph into new homogeneous organisms while harder, inorganic materials, like metals, will change structurally into a pseudo-organic substance that holds the characteristics of its previous forms. 

this is taken directly from the infestation fragment. you can see here that any effective material encountered is not safe from being digested/converted into mass that can be replicated within the infestation. It is possible, admittedly, that several oversights occurred in the process of implementation, but at the same time the lore also supports the theory within this thread. we're here to discuss that, using game lore and actual biology and genetics to help "flesh" out the logic behind the helminthe charger.

sources to back up this dictation?

right, I know that description of the infestation. That simply says it effects both organic and inorganic, changing them both. It does not say it transforms organic matter into inorganic armor that wasn't present. It says directly "holds characteristics of it previous forms" hence why chargers, formed from grineer still have grineer armor. No where in that description does it lead me to believe it would create grineer armor on a mutated non grineer.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

right, I know that description of the infestation. That simply says it effects both organic and inorganic, changing them both. It does not say it transforms organic matter into inorganic armor that wasn't present. It says directly "holds characteristics of it previous forms" hence why chargers, formed from grineer still have grineer armor. No where in that description does it lead me to believe it would create grineer armor on a mutated non grineer.

the grineer armor, is no longer armor at that point. it becomes part of the biology of the infested, similar to corpus helmets present on leapers and crawlers. it's now part of the template. this is proven by identical Ancient healers spawning in rapid order after the introduction of a single lorist. one person was incorporated into the infestation, and became many.