Thaylien

Zephyr should be good; a fix thread ::Edit 7th September::

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Hmmm... I've been thinking a little more too. Because Synergy.

Bear with me for a moment, because I'm at work so my response time and length is limited. 

Synergy in my opinion is when skills offer unique attributes to create opportunities for them to capitalize on each other. 

Zephyr even with the Rework has forced synergy.  With or buffs to 1,2,&4 in the thread, Zephyrs skills don't apply to one another rather than giving them an actual role. It's like we Started with Zephyr .8 and now we're working her towards 1.0 while the rest of the frames are granted 2.0 with actual synergy. 

The buffs we deserve give function to Tailwind which i guess you can suggest synergizes with Tornado, being generous as you can potentially lead targets into it should you find a path. Unfortunately you'd also be bringing yourself to it, positioning yourself away from the area which the enemies are to lead them where you want them to be.

Dive-bomb still has the forced synergy with Tailwind. Despite being buffed the ability had no standing power without a launch. Its makes me disappointed really considering how much more versatile the move could be. 

Indulge me for a second with my new idea of rework in keep pushing. Enemies surround you and you cast dive bomb on the ground. All of the enemies in the AoE get lifted with you as you get launched in the air. The effect of lifting them grants then a 3 second moment of stasis as they are suspended in air. Consider it, the wind. Then you have the option to Dive-bomb to a location, taking those suspended enemies with you in a vortex to slam into other enemies. Or you could cast 1 in the air (I'm calling it Impaling Gale because it has a ring to it). Gale allows you to toss those suspended enemies away or perhaps at you teammates of that is where you were aiming. 

That's what i consider synergy. Each skill independent of another, while offering unique opportunities when combined. Dive-bomb didn't need Tailwind for positioning. It did it itself. It also had options after it was cast. What was proposed in regards to buffing Dive Bomb after a Tailwind is cast feels like an excuse to try to force Tailwind to seem more useful. Tailwind for the sake of extra damage. Even if you're already positioned above the enemy, do it anyway or you'll be lacking in potential damage.

I've used this example to show the differences in what I believe synergy is or should be in comparison to what is being offered in terms to her current kit and buffs.

The role of a shock trooper in Warframe from your description doesn't exist. There's hardly a need for that sort of infantry when the AI doesn't include any tactics of their own. 

While I'd love for WF to include the use of roles, tactics in regards to gameplay mostly consist of run and him with blind shooting. There is no threat that requires us to plan our combat that goes further than spam a single ability.

When DE designs enemies with certain immunities and increased threat level beyond 1 shotting and perhaps with Goliath or Titan styled normal enemies, this feature would become more prevalent. Enemies that we don't want to get too close to not be too far from. Where we are now, we run through mobs of trash, or fight overpowered armored enemies with spam skills. 

Or perhaps I'm not grasping the concept of shock trooper. I'd like to wow more but i can't until work is over.

Edited by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

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On 2017-6-6 at 4:12 PM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

It's like we Started with Zephyr .8 and now we're working her towards 1.0 while the rest of the frames are granted 2.0 with actual synergy.

You know, you're absolutely right...

I actually said it myself earlier and didn't even realise what I was saying... heck, even the name of this thread is this entire point. And I didn't realise it.

One second, let me address something first:

On 2017-6-6 at 4:12 PM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

The role of a shock trooper in Warframe from your description doesn't exist. There's hardly a need for that sort of infantry when the AI doesn't include any tactics of their own.

Actually, it does exist, because while we don't have AI tactics, it is a Horde Mode where every 'spawn' of enemies is split into charger, trooper, heavy and special units. They swarm points and players from all angles, and their only real tactic as such is to group up around the big guys like gunners, bombards, techs, nullifiers and so on. The ability to dive a priority target, like an Eximus unit healing up their allies, or leeching you, is very, very useful, and often a key move to make killing the rest of the enemies easier overall.

We use this tactic all the time and don't even think about it. You and I would love to have assigned roles in the game like this, and we both know it won't happen, but we do use this tactic almost every single time we play.

When you look at it, frames like Excal almost entirely rely on acting like a shock trooper, but don't have the base personal defense to fully commit to it, you can jump into the group of enemies, cast a radial ability where it has the most effect, and then proceed to take down mobs from the middle of the group relatively unscathed. Random shots and those not caught in your ability can still attack, but this is the weakness of the frame and why it has three other abilities based on offensive directional, radial and high-powered melee attacks to compensate by killing faster instead of having defense.

The advanced play of this game is all about managing where the mobs go, even if it's only a meter or so around an object so you can pick them off one at a time, or funnel them into a choke, and if you want to take out a large group of them sometimes the best way is to attack the centre of the group (usually a heavy or special) with a radial attack that catches the most enemies and work out. Zephyr can already do that, dive in, stun a radius, shotgun specific enemies to the face, revive a team member or get life while bullets miss her, and then extract again fast. And it's a great role to have as both a solo and team player because you can switch from ranged weapon attacks, protecting yourself and others with Turbulence while enemies come to you, and then be breaking a group of enemies swarming a defense/interception point or a downed team mate depending on the situation.

I know that this seems like a very niche kind of role, but it's really not, people don't realise how much they use the tactic in Warframe overall, not just as specific characters, and so having a frame that is designed around that concept would be pretty cool.

Now, sure, you could argue that there's better ways to play Zephyr, and you wouldn't be wrong, for the most part. What you can't deny is that the shock trooper is a valid play style for a lot of players.

Now, on to the more important part of this reply!

I think you're right, I think you're actually convincing me.

What we need now is something to look at the way that Warframe could work for us, instead of trying to catch up to the way Warframe is now. How do we future-proof Zephyr instead of just bringing her up to 1.2 standard? (The additional function was the .2, the rest was the move from .8 to 1.0)

How do we make a Zephyr 2.0?

Well...

I have a plan. I'll think it through, and you'll see a new thread from me when I do have a more solid base to work from.

While I definitely think that 3 will stay, and 4 will be the real star of the rework... We'll definitely be taking the basic concept that we don't merge 1 and 2, we make 2 do better, and making Glide the passive. And then we bring in a new 1. The Limbo treatment, instead of the Oberon treatment.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

You know, you're absolutely right...

We use this tactic all the time and don't even think about it....

Well...

I have a plan. I'll think it through, and you'll see a new thread from me when I do have a more solid base to work from.

While I definitely think that 3 will stay, and 4 will be the real star of the rework... We'll definitely be taking the basic concept that we don't merge 1 and 2, we make 2 do better, and making Glide the passive. And then we bring in a new 1. The Limbo treatment, instead of the Oberon treatment.

Now that you've explained it once more I completely understand what you mean and you're right I didn't even notice I've performed this role in game. Due to the volume and threat level of enemies, the only enemies that have lead me to take on this role are Nullifiers, Ancient Toxics, and Ancient Disruptors because all the other enemies dont hold a threat to me by any means or spawn is such a higher value.

That however doesn't discount the truth that the role of a shock trooper is viable and necessary.

I'm looking forward to the next thread and I'm excited to see what you will come up with. I think the potential effectiveness I described in my earlier post with showing what I felt synergy was has been helpful and eye opening for Zephyr potential. She can be amazing with a bit of effort from DE. 

Can you imagine her wings from the Deluxe skin expanding when gliding? So cool.

I at least want to try and ask DE. I know it may be much but worst case scenario we get an Oberon but we should at least ask for a Limbo right?

Edited by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

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1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

While I definitely think that 3 will stay, and 4 will be the real star of the rework... We'll definitely be taking the basic concept that we don't merge 1 and 2, we make 2 do better, and making Glide the passive. And then we bring in a new 1. The Limbo treatment, instead of the Oberon treatment.

Yes!

Welcome Thaylien, you are now one of us >:)

Looking forward for that new thread btw. I have been inclined to do a Zephyr thread with the Limbo-treatment, but haven't had the energy to do so. Thus I'll definitely chime in and support your new thread! :)

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Well, since DE have made noises indicating that they would prefer to keep the existing abilities of warframes and work within the box to fix them, I thought I'd blow the dust off this old thread.

Let's see if anyone new picks up on it!

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Regardless of what they do I'll still play her unless they make the titania archwing thing some people ask for.

But if Dae doesn't utilize anyone's ideas because I've read them ALL, I'll be very disappointed.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

But if Dae doesn't utilize anyone's ideas because I've read them ALL, I'll be very disappointed.

Hah, exactly that. After everything I've read so far, if they don't use one of them, they'd better come up with something that none of us thought of and none of us realised was possible.

Actually, the most disappointing would be if they did one of the many things that you and I both know is bad and have corrected people on constantly in the past. Like turning Turbulence into a toggle or just adding damage numbers to her 2 without changing anything else that it does.

That would be worse...

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Literally skimmed this is like 2 minutes because I'm tired. But overall it's similar to what I mentioned in my updated post that has a 1 ability add discussion and a simple mechanic change to her current abilities. Take a look. I'll reread this tomorrow when I'm not so tired and give you a more detailed answer.

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for me personally i dont really use 1 on the ground to jump up, because i can either double jump or bullet jump, why spend energy?  I also dont really use 2, because melee slam attack is basically the same thing, and often better damage, so again why spend energy.  and i find her passive when it works to your advantage is great, but when it's slowing you down or causing you to say land on the top of a door it can be a real drag (pun intended).

So with that in mind, my suggestions would be,

Tail Wind :  same air functionality, when cast on the ground propels her forward but not as much as in the air, maybe 1/2 as effective (maybe -friction will increase effectiveness), this might end up making it too similar to rhino charge, so maybe tweak some things so the ability is still unique

Dive Bomb: Remove.  Replace this with an ability that toggles on/off her passive, thus allowing you to use it when it's beneficial but turn it off when not.  Should have very low energy cost and no drain.

She now needs a new passive, but mainly i wanted to bring up these two things to help improve her mobility since she is supposed to be a highly mobile frame, and nothing comes to mind off hand so no suggestions for new passive.

One more thing to me is tornado's probably need a rework or replace, i know when i'm playing with a zephyr in squad and the targets i'm shooting at suddenly go up in the air twirling around making it harder to hit i get frustraed, so i don't really use the ability much when i play her which is unfortunately very rarely.  My only thought is maybe a gust that will knock enemies away, could synergize well with tail wind if you knock them into a wall.

 

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3 hours ago, Sleepdebt said:

So with that in mind, my suggestions would be,

Interesting... Well, I know I tend to wall-of-text, so let's go through these.

Because of the difference in function, Tailwind would now actually propel you forward. Think of it acting exactly like Bullet Jump in terms of activation, it goes where you point it no matter where you are. Just that now, if you're on the ground at the start of the cast, it buffs you for when you come down with Dive Bomb. Oh, and all the problems of getting stuck in places are now fixed, so you don't have to worry about her passive being only great 'when it works' the landing function has you covered.

Dive Bomb... is unlikely to be removed. DE have made it clear that they want to make their reworks stick to the original themes and abilities as much as possible, just make those abilities better. It took me a while, but the new functionality on DB would make it a viable cast from wherever you are. That's the best I could do for it.

And yeah, Tornado is frustrating, that's why I tried to make it predictable. The idea is that enemies in the tornado funnels are lifted, but can still be shot in the same way that Hyrdoid's new Tentacle Swarm thrashes slower when it has enemies lifted in the tentacles, and then they're launched straight up from the funnel like Vauban's Bounce (so if there's a roof, they hit it and fall) then land on the ground before they are able to be re-targeted by Tornado and captured again. This will mean that it's like clay pigeon/skeet shooting with the enemies, you know the ability is going to fire them, you just have to point and click when it does, and the enemies will no longer be 'invulnerable' if they're behind or above a funnel, it'll have pass-through for your bullets/abilities so that even if you have potato aim, there's a good chance you can hit them at any point.

Again, the idea with this one is to take what she has right now, no replacing, no removal, and make it better, it's a challenge ^^

Thanks for stopping by!

Edited by Thaylien

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15 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

@Thaylien I think DE is going to skip Zephyr. With PoE and and Umbra getting close and no sign of Deluxe skin, they have no time to do a rework on. Her.

That's my fear, Mirage is a much more popular frame and her skill set is far more 'ready' for a prime.

On the other hand... there's still two months before the next Access... think about it, they're really pushing Plains now, they want it out before the end of the month (two weeks, so they can talk about the release on Prime Time and the next Devstream), that leaves a whole month for hotfixes, then the entirety of November for work on the next Prime.

Considering Oberon and Hydroid were each done in a month right before their Primes... it's not impossible.

But I have been wrong before.

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1 minute ago, Thaylien said:

That's my fear, Mirage is a much more popular frame and her skill set is far more 'ready' for a prime.

On the other hand... there's still two months before the next Access... think about it, they're really pushing Plains now, they want it out before the end of the month (two weeks, so they can talk about the release on Prime Time and the next Devstream), that leaves a whole month for hotfixes, then the entirety of November for work on the next Prime.

Considering Oberon and Hydroid were each done in a month right before their Primes... it's not impossible.

But I have been wrong before.

But then there's Umbra which I thought they also wanted this year. I'm assuming a holiday release.

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If we get something like Mirage + Mesa Prime as the next two female primes and we go back to the 2M cycle again I'm probably going to have to kill someone.

 

On a more productive note, given that we've had confirmation that Zeph can't have the Limbo treatment, I do feel that her existing abilities could be all worthwhile.

Plains has made some of the little momentum upsets with tailwind painfully obvious especially now that the jump momentum trick doesn't work anymore, so it'd be nice to have a fix for that. Smooth transitions from tailwind are probably one of the best things that could happen to it, also.

Since we now know that dive bomb is staying, what are your thoughts on having the effect range scale with height as well as the damage? If the ability was tuned high enough to be useful and getting height added substantial power to it, then it would synergise very nicely with Zeph's kit, I feel.

 

Also, on tornado... Tornadoing on a low ceiling can keep the enemies in a tight cluster at the top of the tornado without ejecting them. This transforms the ability from a 'make them stop doing things briefly' into an extremely lethal control ability that keeps the enemies controlled - a far more useful form of tornado. If this behaviour were the default, I think that even without other changes tornado would be drastically more useful.

Edited by Arkenai7

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8 hours ago, Arkenai7 said:

Plains has made some of the little momentum upsets with tailwind painfully obvious especially now that the jump momentum trick doesn't work anymore, so it'd be nice to have a fix for that. Smooth transitions from tailwind are probably one of the best things that could happen to it, also.

Yeah, I don't think that this can be understated. It makes me think what a big QoL change it was that Mag was able to cast her first 3 abilities while moving. Removing little barriers to the flow of control during gameplay goes a long way to enhancing the parts of the game that are actually fun.

8 hours ago, Arkenai7 said:

Since we now know that dive bomb is staying, what are your thoughts on having the effect range scale with height as well as the damage? If the ability was tuned high enough to be useful and getting height added substantial power to it, then it would synergise very nicely with Zeph's kit, I feel.

Making it a charge might also be viable. Thinking about how this ability looks, maybe there is value in altering the animation such that Zephyr gets treated like a hitscan weapon rather than a projectile. I've seen some comparisons between divebomb and slam attacks. One of the ways to differentiate might be to just have Zephyr get to the ground far faster to the point that Divebomb is practically like a teleport. The move would do the same thing but just massively upping the speed and giving a stock ending animation. I don't know for certain but it might circumvent the bug where divebomb doesn't detect the ground collision properly. Just having Zephyr appear on the ground and apply the ability effect in globe around her might be more reliable. Not sure what the interaction is currently but maybe doing Divebomb this way would give Zephy a way to disjoint things like Bombard missile tracking. Combining this with your suggestion of scaling would certainly make Divebomb a viable use of energy in more situations.

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8 hours ago, Arkenai7 said:

Plains has made some of the little momentum upsets with tailwind painfully obvious especially now that the jump momentum trick doesn't work anymore, so it'd be nice to have a fix for that. Smooth transitions from tailwind are probably one of the best things that could happen to it, also.

Glad I suggested some then ^^

Also, good to see you back Ark.

The range-modified-by-height was something I did play around with when concepting, I thought it would be better to keep it the same, but ensure that what you actually hit was worth the time it took to hit it by upping the main damage scaling and making that CC reliable.

Also, with the height you can achieve in the Plains, this would really need to be capped anyway... from 300m you could make some fairly ridiculous AoE effects.

The contrast to this, however, would be something like this:

12 minutes ago, blacklusterseph said:

One of the ways to differentiate might be to just have Zephyr get to the ground far faster to the point that Divebomb is practically like a teleport.

Because the idea is sound, but doesn't factor in the rush of an actual Dive Bomb.

A really good proposal that somebody else came up with though was that, after 15m high, no matter how high you go, the time to hit ground remains the same. So from the extreme heights it really would be like a teleport, but you would still have animation. It would also mean that the timing for a player aiming would be the same and be predictable, much the same way that we can predict a running enemy with a regular projectile weapon, except that the timing would never waver over the distance, it would always be that 1.2 seconds (or less) that it takes to hit ground no matter where you were, never more than that.

Thanks for stopping back in guys!

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25 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

A really good proposal that somebody else came up with though was that, after 15m high, no matter how high you go, the time to hit ground remains the same. So from the extreme heights it really would be like a teleport, but you would still have animation. It would also mean that the timing for a player aiming would be the same and be predictable, much the same way that we can predict a running enemy with a regular projectile weapon, except that the timing would never waver over the distance, it would always be that 1.2 seconds (or less) that it takes to hit ground no matter where you were, never more than that.

People who play Zephyr more can way in but my theory on why Divebomb has the flaking proc'ing at the end is because of the bolded. I think if you gave divedomb a wind up animation but made the actual travel near instant with a standard animation for ground impact (super hero landing for example) perhaps you eliminate the opportunity for the bugs that currently plague the ability.

I can't really speak to the rush of divebomb. I always thought the sound and the way the animation looked were annoying. I am more of a 'destination over the journey' person.

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32 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Glad I suggested some then ^^

Also, good to see you back Ark.

The range-modified-by-height was something I did play around with when concepting, I thought it would be better to keep it the same, but ensure that what you actually hit was worth the time it took to hit it by upping the main damage scaling and making that CC reliable.

Also, with the height you can achieve in the Plains, this would really need to be capped anyway... from 300m you could make some fairly ridiculous AoE effects.

 

The potential for immensely strong dive bombs did occur to me. But - Consider how you would reach 300m in the first place. It would take many repeated tailwinds to reach such an altitude, which in turn is a big energy investment. For an immense divebomb, it is an equally immense energy investment in tailwinds. For our hypothetical 300m divebomb build, bear in mind that before modding Zephyr is outright incapable of reaching that height - she doesn't have the energy or distance on the tailwind.

Even with 200% duration, it would take you 10+ tailwinds to reach that altitude - an investment of 250 energy before efficiency. Even with high efficiency builds that's ~100 energy minimum invested, then the dive bomb on top, plus the time you spent going up that high, and the time it takes you to come back down. You're spending several times the energy of an ultimate ability and maybe 20-30 seconds of setup time. If the payoff is devastating, I think that's honestly reasonable. That said, a 1m increase every 10m would still yield a solid 30m range increase, so an upper cap is sane. Just not too low, all things considered, I feel. :satisfied:

 

32 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

The contrast to this, however, would be something like this:

Because the idea is sound, but doesn't factor in the rush of an actual Dive Bomb.

A really good proposal that somebody else came up with though was that, after 15m high, no matter how high you go, the time to hit ground remains the same. So from the extreme heights it really would be like a teleport, but you would still have animation. It would also mean that the timing for a player aiming would be the same and be predictable, much the same way that we can predict a running enemy with a regular projectile weapon, except that the timing would never waver over the distance, it would always be that 1.2 seconds (or less) that it takes to hit ground no matter where you were, never more than that.

Thanks for stopping back in guys!

Extending the hypothetical 300m divebomb, this would give us a Zephyr that moves at 150+ m/s. That's, uh... terrifying. If we had high scaling for height then having to aim more carefully and consider the greater distance might be a sensible tradeoff for the heavy bomb.

 

Curious as to your thoughts on changing the ejection behaviour of tornado so it holds targets more predictably (so that you can actually kill them).

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4 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

People who play Zephyr more can way in but my theory on why Divebomb has the flaking proc'ing at the end is because of the bolded.

The reliability of the proc is really simple; animations beat procs, so if an enemy is doing some form of animation, like hacking a console, using a turret, ground-slamming if they're a heavy, throwing a boomerang or grenade... the knock-down proc doesn't proc.

My solution, up there in the OP, is to make it a brief animation itself. For two reasons, really, the first because it would fix the reliability, the second because it would mean you could have enemies under 'slow' effects suspended for longer, so a slow Nova could make the animation last for as long as Rhino Stomp can ^^

4 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

I think if you gave divedomb a wind up animation but made the actual travel near instant with a standard animation for ground impact (super hero landing for example) perhaps you eliminate the opportunity for the bugs that currently plague the ability.

The reason I'd rather not give it a wind-up is because that takes away the instantaneous nature of Dive Bomb on low-altitude. If it were given the radial ground effect I would prefer when you're on the ground, that wouldn't be so much of a problem, but Zephyr isn't a teleporter, she's an air caster. The ability works by propelling her, accelerating her, at the target. So making it go faster over longer distance isn't so much of a problem, but having her apparently not cover that distance and instead just be there, doesn't really fit in my mind. It's kind of a personal reason there, but it's the only one I've got that I really feel makes sense to me.

59 minutes ago, Arkenai7 said:

But - Consider how you would reach 300m in the first place.

Plains of Eidolon, Archwing up to stratosphere. No energy cost, just a single consumable ^^ It's also the only place in game where you can get that high in the first place.

The scaling, back in the updated OP, would be a much more aggressive scale. Quite apart from, say, making it melee-mod scale, which would give the neutral strength DB a potential base damage of nearly 4200 instead of 250 (that's with Primed Pressure Point, Spoiled Strike and the four 90% Elemental mods), so at 300m, you've got (0.2 x 300) x 4200 = 252,000 damage (actually a lot less than you'd think, right? That's about a decent Nova AMD on enemies resistant to Radiation...) Half a million damage if you mod for power Strength.

My scaling, however, would give the original base 250 damage... hmm... let's see now. (0.1 x 300) x (0.2 x 300) x 250 = 450,000. Which is a little more impressive. More so if you mod for the 200% Strength build I currently have for Jet Stream, just under a million damage in a single hit. You'd still need five of those to kill a fully-armoured level 150 Bombard, but still, that's kind of fun. Add in melee scaling? You hit a base damage, neutral strength, of 7,560,000, and a Strength build gives you 15,120,000 damage.

So, for the cost of an Archwing on the Plains, you could use your Operator to remove a Teralyst's shields, and then archwing to the stratosphere, and nuke a limb instantly. Isn't that a fun thought? XD

The answer to Zephyr damage scaling, add a secondary multiplier onto the equation ^^ You don't even need the melee scaling to make it better after that point.

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Well. That puts things into perspective.

Yes, mod scaling would alternatively catapult dive bomb into usefulness.

 

Archwing up to sky limit is still a cost though, really.

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1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

The reliability of the proc is really simple; animations beat procs, so if an enemy is doing some form of animation, like hacking a console, using a turret, ground-slamming if they're a heavy, throwing a boomerang or grenade... the knock-down proc doesn't proc.

I see. How general is that though? I haven't tested it extensively but it seems to me like there are times the knockdown doesn't proc and the enemy isn't doing anything other than running at me.

 

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

The reason I'd rather not give it a wind-up is because that takes away the instantaneous nature of Dive Bomb on low-altitude.

I was still on the charging train of thought but you could substitute this for a start-up animation to get my meaning. I see that people would perceive this differently depending on what divebombing looks like in your mind. I just see it as Zephyr orientating herself in the air in a few frames and blasting into her landing pose at a rate almost like the Liset blasting off at the end of a mission.

 

2 hours ago, Arkenai7 said:

Curious as to your thoughts on changing the ejection behaviour of tornado so it holds targets more predictably (so that you can actually kill them).

I'm somewhat indifferent to this although it would become irritating like Hydroid is currently when his 4 is too weak to kill but needs all sorts of adjustments so that it isn't torturous to actually shoot things that the tentacles are holding. Granted Zephyr's tornadoes dumping the contents doesn't let them do max damage but it does make her slightly less of an annoyance to her teammates.

Edited by blacklusterseph

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4 hours ago, Arkenai7 said:

Curious as to your thoughts on changing the ejection behaviour of tornado so it holds targets more predictably (so that you can actually kill them).

I also forgot to mention this, sorry ^^

Again, the OP explains my views on this, I would personally prefer a guaranteed release in a reliable upwards direction, so it lets them go with momentum, but if they can't be moved due to a ceiling they drop back down again. Reasons include; target practice in open areas, where reliable launches mean reliable aiming trajectories; falling back into the area of a funnel means the funnel can pick them back up again as long as the ability lasts, meaning more chances of damage and procs; and finally because even if we can shoot through the funnels, the funnels themselves need to move on from target to target, having them standing still repeatedly targeting the same enemy because it can't be released from the top of the funnel is, to me, one of the downsides because it means it can't chase down and target new enemies.

1 hour ago, blacklusterseph said:

I see. How general is that though? I haven't tested it extensively but it seems to me like there are times the knockdown doesn't proc and the enemy isn't doing anything other than running at me.

No, after extensive testing, this isn't limited to Zephyr. It's the key reason that all other abilities that CC trigger animations that have priority; Radial Blind, Silence, Chaos, Stomp, Divine Spears, all of them trigger animations. Two specific ones that don't? Dive Bomb and Sonic Boom, both of them have the same issue with reliability because the blast knockdowns and ragdolls are status, not animation.

It's a pain ^^

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7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I also forgot to mention this, sorry ^^

Again, the OP explains my views on this, I would personally prefer a guaranteed release in a reliable upwards direction, so it lets them go with momentum, but if they can't be moved due to a ceiling they drop back down again. Reasons include; target practice in open areas, where reliable launches mean reliable aiming trajectories; falling back into the area of a funnel means the funnel can pick them back up again as long as the ability lasts, meaning more chances of damage and procs; and finally because even if we can shoot through the funnels, the funnels themselves need to move on from target to target, having them standing still repeatedly targeting the same enemy because it can't be released from the top of the funnel is, to me, one of the downsides because it means it can't chase down and target new enemies.

I did read this section but I see no reason why most of the two visions - of one chasing down enemies and one holding enemies - are irreconcilable, though the idea of a loop of enemies going through the funnel, being ejected, and immediately being picked back up again is something I disagree with. Here's why.

The tornadoes can carry things around in them while still chasing down new enemies, no? The difficulty with the swift ejection method is that the enemies controlled by the tornado are always moving quickly, and while they're not harming people you may actually be hurting your squad's ability to kill them. When I attempt to bring Zephyr to defence based missions, I don't get rejected because tornado won't do anything - quite the opposite. Just today I was asked not to bring Zephyr 'because it will make it take forever'. That's a common perception of Zephyr as a CC frame that I've met and it's not a wrong one. An off switch helps reduce this effect somewhat, but it doesn't change that Zephyr's CC, unlike most CC frames, doesn't actually assist in killing anything and instead makes it more difficult.

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I still kind of want a Tailwind that lasts for as long as you specifically want it, not based on mods equipped. Continue to use the ability and become a directed rocket that uses a reasonable amount of energy over time.

I wonder if that could be an augment one day, a simple 'hold 1 to continue dashing' augment might be a nice way to fill out that spot since Tailwind currently has no augments.

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These are pretty great fixes, though I'd like to see Tailwind become a toggled movement mode. I haven't taken Zephyr out since Parkour 2.0 because the mediocrity of her current abilities is only exacerbated by the ways the new mobility tools render them superfluous, even though she was my most-used 'frame for a while.

It'd be cool if Tornado funnels held onto bullets or other projectiles fired into them, doing damage to captured targets before tossing them out. Or at least I feel like enemies should take more damage when they finally hit the ground. Or be disarmed by the winds pulling the weapons from their hands. 

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