Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[SilvaDreams]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)ArnnFrost said:

Basically The World stand (With the japanese accent its ZA WARUDO) stops time, too OP.

And if you tell you watch Anime but not JoJo ... i'd feel bad for you! JoJo of how bizarre and awesome (and manly, duh) it is, it's now the holy water of Anime curing you from all the Loli + Magical princesses crap that is in every freaking (bad) Animes out there right now (namely SAO)

And it is Bizzar because it is one giant meme for music

[2Peter3Nine]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)AlastorLines said:

Personally I would prefer for Banish a similiar method to Ash's new Bladestorm. By holding the skill-key he can switch to marking mode and upon release the enemies get banished to/ released from the Rift. This allows for quick Mass-Banishes, but also giving the selective choice, who to let in or out. As the "new" Banish was only shown in a solo-environment I am a bit concerned about how it is applied to allies, if they are surrounded by enemies though.

Also his 3 is different from what the thread creator describes (or he simply didn't understand it). It is like Nova's 4, "priming" all targets in the void. By killing the targets inside the void they release a damaging pulse that can arc outside the rift, while de-banishing them will create a mini-Cataclysm (like Oberon's augment "Hallowed Reckoning"). What exactly this state of being "Void Primed" implies in terms of damage or other effects is so far still unknown.

I myself like the rework (mostly because I don't try to play Sonic in Warframe, using more than just rolling) as it trades in the Rift Surge, which was a pretty selfish damage buff and was kinda out of theme for him. Limbo should be a master of strategy and battlefield manipulation and not some user of brute force.

Limbo only needs to do one at a time.

I know a lot of you think it's slow and boring,

and that's why you should play a different warframe and leave my strategically built limbo alone.

[2Peter3Nine]

24 minutes ago, Nokah said:

Re: Stasis, we don't know the limit on it. Based on the gameplay, the limit is high - and we also don't know how long the "cooldown" is. If they're doing extensive testing, we'll likely see it be fine. If Stasis shatters Limbo's playstyle too often, I'm sure it'll get buffed to the point where it's only breakable if you really keep it on lock.

Re: Rift pockets, it adds inconsistency, but they only happen if you pop charged enemies out of the Rift. Limbo should always know when this happens, so he should always be able to deal with them.

Cataclysm isn't bad, so it didn't really need a buff. The only change is making it do the same thing as Banish: AoE knockdown on cast, along with more damage from its initial formation (and from blowing it up). Adding damage up/down buffs would be nice, but it's not necessary to keep Cataclysm as a skill you'd be using.

You kinda brought up all these concerns in your other thread. It doesn't need to be copied to every other discussion about it.

Until people get it in their thick skulls that every warframe doesn't need to be built on DPS,

i'll keep at it.

 

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)ArnnFrost said:

Basically The World stand (With the japanese accent its ZA WARUDO) stops time, too OP.

And if you tell you watch Anime but not JoJo ... i'd feel bad for you! JoJo of how bizarre and awesome (and manly, duh) it is, it's now the holy water of Anime curing you from all the Loli + Magical princesses crap that is in every freaking (bad) Animes out there right now (namely SAO)

I've seen......one episode?(it's how i even know about it)

my idea of manly anime may differ from yours(guren lagann) so that may be another reason.

though i have been wanting to watch more of jojo's.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

What we saw was good. But.. this is an unfinished product. I expect some duration or cost for his passive. For "balancing" purposes. I personally would like it, as long as what we see is what we get. I have a few concerns with the way his 2 and 3 will work with "mini cataclysms" and how player/enemy projectile will effect time stop. Usually with things that appear too good to be true, it is the truth. My example, scrapped the idea of no duration on SotD. 

[corrosivePaladin]

Ill hold no judgement yet. While the rework sounds interesting I hold judgement until its fully implemented.

[(PSN)AlastorLines]

12 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Limbo only needs to do one at a time.

I know a lot of you think it's slow and boring,

and that's why you should play a different warframe and leave my strategically built limbo alone.

Or you should learn to read, accept other opinions and not to dismiss all changes as garbage, just because the don't match your concept. Someone who clings to Rift Surge in its current version, because he relies on a pure damage buff and still calls his build "strategically".

Edited February 18, 2017 by (PS4)AlastorLines

[2Peter3Nine]

2 minutes ago, corporatePaladin said:

Ill hold no judgement yet. While the rework sounds interesting I hold judgement until its fully implemented.

And then if you don't like it, it'll be three years before they work on him again.

[Lalaef]

I tried.

[2Peter3Nine]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)AlastorLines said:

Or you should learn to read, accept other opinions and not to dismiss all changes as garbage, just because the don't match your concept. Someone who clings to Rift Surge in its current version, because he relies on a pure damage buff and still calls his build "strategically".

Did read, and only responded to a part I thought needed responding too.

Limbo needs to be able to controle who is and isn't in the rift at all times.

AoE banish and surge rift pockets prevent him from doing to efficiently.

 

Limbo was release with Opticore, he's meant to be used with it.

He's meant to single out one target, then kill them in one devastating shot.

But, he can do groups too, riftwalk, then cataclysm an area while you stand outside of it,

shooting your assault rifle or shotgun into it.

it's a little sloppy, and slower than everyone else, unless you don't mind being gungho.

But it works for him.

It might not work for you, or other red players, but for blue players, he's great.

~~

Here are ways I play limbo.

 

Cataclysm sniper, (3 of 4 powers used)

while riftwalking, cast cataclysm at a far point with enemies.

Then surge, and shoot them with your rifle from a safe distance.

 

Rift Reviver,

freely revive fallen allies even when they are in the range of a rampart,

or boss, without worry or fail.

 

Banish assassin, (3 of 4 powers used)

rift walk, all the time, banish an enemy,

melee finisher them while they are knocked down.

Repeat until all desired enemies are dead.

 

Hostage guardian,

banish the hostage and get them to extraction.

 

Broken Scepter supporter,

the broken scepter's ability is usable while rift walking.

Use it to freely create orbs for your allies.

 

Syndicate enforcer,

Syndicate weapon burst effects, effect enemies outside the rift.

Bring Loka weapons to grineer maps, Talos weapons to infested maps, and Suda weapons to corpus maps.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

I can see his passive having some kind of static duration. Something like 30 seconds or so. Also "It doesn't cost energy" and "Not right now" were used really close together in the Devstream. None of what we saw is set in stone as of right now. Time Stop looks interesting but being effected by team mate/enemy projectiles as well could mean perma-lock out of the ability. How the developers implement that could reflect your builds and how you interact with other players. 

[kyori]

Limbo didn't stop time much as other enemies not affected are still moving.

Rhino's stomp is more like it as it affects way more enemies.

 

In order to be really like a stop time ability, they should make limbo like ember... press power and limbo shout 'zawaruto'  then enemies will be time-stopped as limbo move past them... as in the time-stopping version of WoF.

Edited February 18, 2017 by kyori

[2Peter3Nine]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

I can see his passive having some kind of static duration. Something like 30 seconds or so. Also "It doesn't cost energy" and "Not right now" were used really close together in the Devstream. None of what we saw is set in stone as of right now. Time Stop looks interesting but being effected by team mate/enemy projectiles as well could mean perma-lock out of the ability. How the developers implement that could reflect your builds and how you interact with other players. 

Yeah, like, what happens if an ally has a grakata or soma?

The limit would be broken before faster than it even have a chance of being useful.

[WhisperByte]

Started a similar thread about Limbo's fashionframe on reddit yesterday. Here's my chosen colors. Might have to tweal it a bit

[Nokah]

It's useless to try and argue that you can only play Limbo one way. He can be played many ways.

Your strategic build for Limbo won't be hurt by these changes. You might not be able to select one enemy, but you can better freeze groups, which lets you go full ham. You can most likely still increase damage done to these enemies too, using the 3 as a Prime and then killing the enemies to arc lighting the group outside. The enemies you prime never have to leave the Rift - you choose if they do, and that's how you decide where the mini-cataclsyms will drop. There is basically 0 chance you'll ever accidentally create a cataclysm unless you prime inside a big Cataclysm and pop it.

You can still use Cataclysm how you want to. There's no real changes to it. It got some minor adjustments to work like Banish does with CC - initial stun, higher initial damage - but it's still the same ability.

We don't know enough about Stasis to dismiss it as garbage. It appears to have an extremely long duration, and it seems to be able to hold quite the number of projectiles and enemies.

We don't know enough about the changes to Banish to dismiss them as garbage. Combining Stasis and Banish allows Limbo perfect control: As long as an enemy doesn't resist Stasis, he always knows how many people are in his field. Cataclysm and Stasis won't play nice with each other, but we don't place Cataclysm to use Stasis: Cataclysm is placed for different things, and while you can creatively combine the two, Cataclysm is not only useful because Stasis exists - rather, Stasis is a way to make Cataclysm even more powerful for a short period, but if it overfills, the frame overloads.

There's no reason for you to be upset about them adding versatility to your frame. Worse, you're trying to prove people wrong by using weapons with damage types versus enemies that are actively strong against their base damage. Grineer resist impact, so you need to be using a damage type that's more effective against Grineer, like Slash or Puncture. Worse still, you don't point out if these enemies can be CCed, and since we saw the timestop can last for about 20 seconds at an absolute minimum, it's silly to say that an enemy could even get up and attack Limbo.

If Limbo's Stasis can only be used in short bursts, why wouldn't he dart in, deal a ton of damage to the enemies he's Stasis-Banished, then back off, drop Stasis, recharge while they scramble around, then Stasis again, jump back in, and attack them while they can't do anything? It's not the most effective method, but it seems to match your playstyle: Dealing with groups by doing that kind of tactical style might even be more enjoyable for you.

Most of all, I'd really like it if you could chill. Nobody wants to make Limbo a top-tier DPS frame. But the primary way a frame provides utility is by offering damage. Limbo is keeping all his cool tricks, getting another, and Stasis's amazing CC potential alongside his wayyyy more fine control about what enemies can do in the void plane makes him sound like he's going to be super enjoyable, as long as they don't adjust him one way and then fail to account for how their good ideas might warp slightly into bad ones.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

Just now, General_Durandal said:

Yeah, like, what happens if an ally has a grakata or soma?

The limit would be broken before faster than it even have a chance of being useful.

I'm more concerned about the infamous spamulor users. 

[2Peter3Nine]

Just now, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

I'm more concerned about the infamous spamulor users. 

mirage :I

she is now limbo's arch-nemesis.

[(PSN)AlastorLines]

9 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Did read, and only responded to a part I thought needed responding too.

Limbo needs to be able to controle who is and isn't in the rift at all times.

AoE banish and surge rift pockets prevent him from doing to efficiently.

 

Limbo was release with Opticore, he's meant to be used with it.

He's meant to single out one target, then kill them in one devastating shot.

But, he can do groups too, riftwalk, then cataclysm an area while you stand outside of it,

shooting your assault rifle or shotgun into it.

it's a little sloppy, and slower than everyone else, unless you don't mind being gungho.

But it works for him.

It might not work for you, or other red players, but for blue players, he's great.

 

As I use him with my 5 forma Opticor (I actually didn't know he was released together with it), while currently utilizing a min-range Cataclysm as deployable cover. Funny that I play him with the intended weapon without knowing it.

[2Peter3Nine]

Well, his current passive makes him better in every aspect while in the rift.

Deals more damage, takes less, regens energy, ect.

But the new passive will replace it.

Why roll into it? I use the roll function all the time, in every mission.

It's a very helpful way of mobility.

Why can't they just make it trigger with the alt-fire button?

[2Peter3Nine]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)AlastorLines said:

As I use him with my 5 forma Opticor (I actually didn't know he was released together with it), while currently utilizing a min-range Cataclysm as deployable cover. Funny that I play him with the intended weapon without knowing it.

Wait, you use cataclysm as your camp spot, while banishing far away enemies then shooting them?

That actually sounds safer than the other way around, and more useful in some ways.

Like, what if you need to get out of the rift, but then back in?

The way I did it i'd have to uncast and recast his 2nd, but with that setup you can just step into and out of the cataclysm.

Buuuuuut, if someone sneaked up on you they would be able to melee you.

[(PSN)sixsecondsleft]

In lieu of what DE has shown us of Limbo's rework, here is what I'd like to see as someone who loves Limbo.  These are based off his current abilities.

 

In the rift: Limbo/allies gain +2 health/sec (along with the current 2 energy/sec)

 

1. Banish:  An enemy killed in the rift creates a mini cataclysm-esque implosion/explosion.  Hopefully, affecting nearby (non-rift) enemies.

 

2. Rift Walk:  No changes.  Augment:  Limbo draws enemy fire similar to Nyx in Absorb.  Limbo's invulnerability helps draw fire from allies.

 

3. Rift Surge:  Applies to allies in the rift.  Slows enemies in the rift.

 

4. Cataclysm:  Starts as a small point that continually pulls enemies in (vortex-like) as it grows, engulfing enemies, and resulting implosion/explosion damage dependent on # of enemies in the "grown" cataclysm.

 

Deluxe skin weapon skin idea:  Walking cane skin for the Destreza

 

I don't think Limbo needs the major rework, obviously.  I'm sure DE wants to make him more appealing to more players, but he is fun as his current niche self.  Keep him unique!

 

 

[2Peter3Nine]

If the banish explosion damages things in the rift, than YES PLEASE!

The last thing limbo needs is uncontrollable rift pockets popping up all over the place.

 

An augment for agro is soarly lacking in this game, and limbo would be by far the best decoy around.

 

How would rift surge apply to allies? Giving them the same buffs he gets while in the rift like energy regen and damage bonus?

Then YES PLEASE!

 

Hmm... Not a fan of moving targets, so having the cataclysm work like a vortex, well, i'm not a fan of that part.

Now, if it worked like a magnetic anomaly, slowing drawing close by enemies into it's center instead of quickly and forcibly,

that that would be one hek of an upgrade.

[(PSN)AlastorLines]

5 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Wait, you use cataclysm as your camp spot, while banishing far away enemies then shooting them?

That actually sounds safer than the other way around, and more useful in some ways.

Like, what if you need to get out of the rift, but then back in?

The way I did it i'd have to uncast and recast his 2nd, but with that setup you can just step into and out of the cataclysm.

Buuuuuut, if someone sneaked up on you they would be able to melee you.

If you have the Zenistar, just use it. Deploy the disc inside the Cataclysm, so any enemy entering it will be killed by the damage field, which lasts 45 seconds. I am unfortunately still a bit away from it, but this is pretty much the solution to the problem you just presented.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

17 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

mirage :I

she is now limbo's arch-nemesis.

Especially considering each projectile counts as 3. So 1 Mirage could effectively be as bad as 3 teammates. 

[D33STRUCTIV3]

Howdy,

As we all know, Limbo's receiving a bit of a rework aiming to improve his kit. So far, most of the reception has been very positive, especially in regards to Limbo's new passive. I'm with the majority here-- I absolutely love it. However, there's still a decent chunk of people left dissatisfied. Notably, many Limbo mains have been expressing their woes after seeing that, for example, Banish is an AoE. I'm by no means a Limbo main, nor am I a very mechanically skilled Warframe player. However, there's one thing I could immediately tell despite this: the new kit Limbo has tentatively been showed off with does not match his theme as well as it could. With this in mind, I'd like to offer my own two cents in hopes that somebody from DE would care to give it a read.

To start, I'd like to list off some traits I think of when I play Limbo, or think of Limbo...

• Masterful, careful use of Void energy.
• Strategic preparedness.
• Control.
• Wittiness, class.
• Perhaps even a bit of over-confidence in the expenditure of his powers, considering what happened to the original owner. I think that players should have to take the same precautions the original owner did.

Basically, I think of Limbo as the frame that gets the job done cleanly and seamlessly. He's what I like to call a control frame, similar to Vauban or perhaps Ivara. In their utility, control frames find ways to style and mold the battlefield to their every whim, and once they play out their intentions, they look cool as hell doing it. They can potentially take loads of skill to play to their fullest, but the resources are all available to the player to shine from the get-go.

So, this being said, what do I find wrong with the currently shown Limbo rework? Well, there's just a couple things...

• Limbo's ability to individually choose who does and does not enter his domain has been stripped. Currently, Limbo is slated to have his 1st ability, Banish, be an AoE. This, in effect, strips away part of the thematic cohesion Limbo's new kit is trying to uphold. He's masterful enough to stop time in its tracks, but not masterful enough to cherry-pick specific targets for in-Void elimination? That makes no sense!
• If I'm not mistaken, enemies who were charged with Void energy then returned to the regular plane of existence, will explode in a mini-Cataclysm. This is cool, sure, but does it reflect the essence of control and mastery that Limbo not only possesses, but is expected from players eventually? Not really. Limbo players are going to want to very particularly choose who enters and exits their realm. This is the sort of effect that, while cool, is unnecessary fluff that might foil the plans of budding, ingenious Void-benders such as yourselves. It risks unwanted enemies crashing your party, and that's not what Limbo ought to be about. He's the one writing the guest list.
• Limbo's tentatively named "Stasis" ability has a cap. That's fine, but here's what's not: lack of indicators. There is absolutely no clarity. There's nothing that tells the player "hey, this alternate plane of existence is getting a little stuffed. Stop freezing things." What does that do to a control-oriented warframe, and its strategic operator? It frustrates the hell out of them, because they might've accidentally reached that threshold without knowing, or not by their hand (for example, via the aforementioned Cataclysms).

All right, so what could be done to improve the new Limbo?

• Give players more options-- starting with Banish. Make Banish, by default, a single-target ability. Then, when held, Banish could be charged to cover more ground as an AoE at the cost of more energy. Better yet, have a varying AoE size based on how long the button is held.
• Get rid of the mini-Cataclysms. Keep the Void-lightning, because it's badass, but still give players a reason to phase enemies out before killing a target. For example, what if the Void-lightning was stronger and more volatile in the regular plane of existence, giving the player and incentive to phase targets beforehand? They could explode more violently, dealing increased damage or covering more ground. What if it chained longer inside or outside of the Void?
• Give Stasis and Cataclysm an indicator, like some kind of warping in the visuals of the Void/enemies within it (or a sound), that suggests "hey, this place is about to crumble, don't overload it!" Better yet, incentivize the use of collapsing Void zones. At a small cost to Limbo, perhaps overloading the Void could deal damage to the enemies and players within before collapsing in on itself? Anyways, even a small noise or an increasing, distant sound could become a solid indicator to let the player know they're reaching their limits.
• In general, give a control-oriented frame more control. That's what the players need, that's what they can use, that's what they have fun with. For example, in regards to Limbo's passive, let him activate it while standing still or crouched, not just in a roll and midair. There will be situations where all of these instances will come in handy, but definitely keep the roll-- it's super cool. Can't wait to breeze through levels with a healthy mix of dashes and Void-rolls.

Anyways, that's all from me. Sorry for the wall of text. Fortunately, now it's your turn-- tell me what you think! What should DE do to truly make this rework shine, and ensure it's the last bit of TLC Limbo needs for a while? Is it perfect as-is, or do you think some of the contentions provided hold some substance? Would love to hear what everyone has to say.