Gameplay Feedback And Suggestions From A Game Designer

[obmoc]

I'm with you guys on the cover system. I just think it feels so awkward and looks so dumb strafing out back around corners when in a gun fight. Maybe we just need more animations to keep the world believable.

[obmoc]

I will say this.. The more and more I play the more and more I like it and the more familiar everything becomes. I think they are ramping up the difficulty to slow. I was looking for wall run opportunities in the first 3 levels and there were very few if any. Then I hit like level 5 bam the game opens up and gives you the a better taste of what is to come. I think the first couple of levels need some more style. Where's the ziplines? where's the wall running, etc.. These things set the game up completely differently. The first few levels feel vary Mass Effect and Gears of War that is another reason I gravitated to them. The level design led me in that direction. The levels after that.. atleast the few I've played seem to open up and allow more exploration.

[Shion963]

I'm with you guys on the cover system. I just think it feels so awkward and looks so dumb strafing out back around corners when in a gun fight. Maybe we just need more animations to keep the world believable.

 

Did you know that tapping Shift while aim-strafing does a roll it it's to the sides or forward, and a flip if it's walking backwards? Hold Aim + one movement key (WASD), and tap shift

 

It's not really 'useful' once you have weapons that don't require concentrated strafing and shooting to take down enemies, but it's cool and fun.

 

I will say this.. The more and more I play the more and more I like it and the more familiar everything becomes. I think they are ramping up the difficulty to slow. I was looking for wall run opportunities in the first 3 levels and there were very few if any. Then I hit like level 5 bam the game opens up and gives you the a better taste of what is to come. I think the first couple of levels need some more style. Where's the ziplines? where's the wall running, etc.. These things set the game up completely differently. The first few levels feel vary Mass Effect and Gears of War that is another reason I gravitated to them. The level design led me in that direction. The levels after that.. atleast the few I've played seem to open up and allow more exploration.

 

Neat trivia here: some of the tilesets aren't designed with Wallrunning or vault-climbing in mind (Corpus Ship level, specifically) as those mechanics weren't even in the game at the time of conception!

 

And devstreams have mentioned that part of the rework/polish of U9 is redoing the Tutorial, which is currently a legacy to simpler times without wallrunning or jump kicks.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Shion963

[obmoc]

Overall, good ideas, but your #1 point just lost you a lot of credibility... If you bothered to look on the WF wiki even, most of the weapons in the game can be made/brought with in-game currency and materials. Only the ones that are exclusive are unobtainable.

 

However, if you can come up with an example of a successful MMO that has every weapon that is easily purchasable with in-game credit, I'm sure you with garner much more support. :)

That's another problem with the UI. It isn't immediately noticeable to the player that the game uses crafting as a main source of weapons, etc.. Nobody new will understand the game currency, blue print, resource, crafting loop.

[CloudPies]

That's another problem with the UI. It isn't immediately noticeable to the player that the game uses crafting as a main source of weapons, etc.. Nobody new will understand the game currency, blue print, resource, crafting loop.

 

While I agree with the lackluster UI. How long have you played WF, before submitting a feedback thread? :S

[Oz270]

Those who said no cover system, have any of you guys tested it out? Yes DE said it'll slow down the game pacing, but did they test it out or is it an on paper theory?

The biggest reason that DE wouldn't implement this is most probably due to the amount of work it needs to be done, and I can respect that.

But what's wrong with cover? We can blaze thu a level in 3min and don't give a damn about how the overall mission consequence/pacing, it also makes the mission feel cheap.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Oz270

[Azraill]

This post is mainly to build on my other one, (which was basically the cover system if ever implemented would need an off switch) - is to basically implement a fluid cover system that would IMO need to be as seamless as Assassin's Creed (Difficulty: 9) and then as the off switch it would only ever be active during stealth status in the mission, afterward it shuts off entirely for balancing reasons - and to keep the original intended pace of the game. 

 

That would be acceptable and absolutely fun, stealth then becomes more valid and has ITS own pace and can later Incorporate other gadgets as mentioned prior with things such as climbing walls and stealth suits with toggle stealth during 'stealth' status of a mission (In lore terms, the 'ships sensors' disrupt your stealth designed gadgets and the cover system.) 

 

From lore and gameplay aspects are such mechanics possible and able to balanced? Sure, but I do not by any means expect the Dev team to devote valuable time and resources into it when that was never the real focus of the game to begin with - but it would certainly be fun, I can't deny that. 

[Tsukinoki]

@Oz270
Think of trying to do all the wall running, flipping and climbing past boxes when all your tenno does is want to cuddle the boxes if you get too close.
Think of trying to dodge around enemies and instead cuddling a box and dieing.

Those are two of the reasons DE_Steve has said why they dont want a cover system.

NEXT:
Difficulty.
Many people find the game far too easy already
If you throw in cover it'll be far easier (and quite a bore at that point).
Only way to deal with the difficulty is massively buff enemy damage.
if you do that it forces you to use cover.
That kills melee combat and the uniqueness of warframe.

[CloudPies]

Those who said no cover system, have any of you guys tested it out? Yes DE said it'll slow down the game pacing, but did they test it out or is it an on paper theory?

The biggest reason that DE wouldn't implement this is most probably due to the amount of work it needs to be done, and I can respect that.

But what's wrong with cover? We can blaze thu a level in 3min and don't give a damn about how the overall mission consequence/pacing, it also makes the mission feel cheap.

 

You know that little flip animation you're locked into when you wall climb to the top of something? it annoys the hell out of players that like a little freedom in determining movement.

 

ninja'd by Tsukinoki. Game on bro!

[jibbahjabbah]

Marketplace:

Don't much care for the idea of warframes and mods being purchased for credits. It might be a pain in the butt farming for bps but it's a shared pain which almost creates a sense of camaraderie. Most of the friends I play with on a regular basis started out with us farming the same boss sharing "war stories" about how hard of a time we're having getting a certain bp *cough*nyx*cough*frost*cough*. It's a sense of community I think would be lost if everything would be purchasable by credits. If that were to happen then this game would devolve into 90% of the players rushing the same mission because its the quickest with highest yield of creds. No sympathizing with a guy whose run a boss 20 times and has gotten nothing but a handful of helmets. No shared disappointment when the boss you've been farming with some others drops nothing or the same thing it's dropped last time. No shared joy when finally you get that bp you all been working for. No more awkward moment when the other guy gets what he wanted but you didn't and you have to congratulate him when deep down your really thinking "you son of a...". It'd be a down right shame to loose that kinship we all share.

 

Clan Identification:

Would be nice.

 

Clan PvP:

I always thought capture the flag would be really interesting with the powers and parkour in this game. Seems like they want to make this game competitive too (judging from the last special event) and PvP is leagues beyond leader board in that sense. It's also much more open to everybody as it comes down to skill and not amount of time and mental fortitude you have(1000+ drone kills? Wow, I felt like chugging a gallon of water and then swallowing a toaster after doing getting just 80).

 

Cover System:

I think it would really slow down the game. There's something spectacularly awesome about four people working in unison rushing forward slaughtering everything they come across like a tidal wave of death sweeping through a ship. People start stopping for cover and that fast pace flow goes the way of the dodo.

[MeanOgreGrr]

Hitting a button to magnetically snap yourself into and out of cover is a gameplay mechanic I hope is going away. I have been pressing my characters up against walls and crates longer than there was a button designed to do it, because that's what cover is and it makes sense. The button method works great in games designed around it, but these are very different games from Warframe. Honestly cover systems have been so overused and poorly implemented in too many games that I hope it falls out of favor.

 

Tomb Raider evolved cover gameplay beyond the snap-to button, and it's brilliant. You don't need to snap into cover to see animations of Laura taking cover, she just does it when cover is nearby. I'm sure the levels and art assets used within them were painstakingly crafted in order to achieve this. In the end, it's all about seeing your character in new animations and really unnecessary to the gameplay. But it does look cool.

 

In Warframe your character has cover when at least partially hidden from view from the perspective of your attacker. Because the enemy doesn't have perfect aim with head or center mass bodyshots this is true, and the further behind cover you can get the more incoming damage you will avoid. Warframe does this very well.

 

If they can add in cool new animations when behind cover then I'm all for it, as long as the animations or method they implement for it don't cause a loss of control.

[Oz270]

So what you're saying is that the wall running system won't be fixed? Come on guys think for a moment, nothing is impossible really (within reason) so coding wall running and cover properly is really impossible?
Those top hall of fame games all did something people said was impossible, and I understand that you guys don't want a broken game, neither do I, but I'd like it if warframe pushes the barrier a little bit.
We all like warframe.
I just want them to make something that is different and pushes the barrier.

The cuddling point; right now the scaling enemy's doesn't make the game better only more frustrating and the pacing is all over the place, and most stealth games require cover
 

Edited July 12, 2013 by Oz270

[neKroMancer]

Cover system :

Frankly, this system looks good in single player mode in Mass Effect. However, it fails in MP mode of ME3. Only newbies use it and most players who visited the forum are using righ hand advantage instead, just like Warframe. I don't really see the point of adding a system that isn't going to be of any use. I think it's going to be a good addition to stealth gameplay though. Depends on DE's intention on stealth system.

Marketplace UI :

It's, without any doubt, poorly designed. While I don't have any problem with it, I think it should concentrate on what player can buy with credit more than platinum. I have seen a lot of new players who finished browsing the first page and came running to the forum, accusing this game of P2W (and in the process, got slaughtered by forumers). However, I think there will always be trouble with the marketplace UI since players prefer to blame everything but themselves. There is no limit to human stupidity.

Competitive aspect :

I don't really want the classic PvP setting in Warframe. It's just ... plain. All online shooter games have this stuff as a main concept. Why jump into the market with high competition? Not to mention resource that needed to create separate mode. I have seen a lot of PvP debate : change/ban Warframe power, adjust weapon damage, making new maps, keep wallrunning > look like a bland shooter game with Warframe's art design imo.

I think Warframe should bring competitive aspect into the game based on the current PvE focus and procedurally generated map. I'm more interest in playing a dungeon master mode : controlling AI spawn against a squad of 'live' Tenno and assuming control of the boss itself in my hand-made map full of booby traps. No stat adjustment, no power redesign, just a new mode based on existing concept.

[Tsukinoki]

@Oz270

While they have been making improvements to wall running and climbing..the problem with a cover system is that when you actually TRY to wallrun and jump around cover you'll find your character suddenly cuddling the boxes and hiding. That RUINS the flow of the game and makes all of the wall running and such clunkier and harder to use.

And you have yet to address what they would have to do to the enemy damage if they include a cover system. Even *if* they can fix the cover system so it doesn't interrupt wall running and all of the ninja moves now, tell me how it wouldn't make them suicide moves?

Tell me a single cover game, as in one where you snap to and from cover and are supposed to use it, where you can sit out there and take anywhere near the damage the warframes can take.

I bet that there are none that do that.

Why?

Any game that includes cover basically forces you to use it because of enemies that will kill in you 3 to 5 seconds of sticking your head out of cover.

Good luck trying to wallrun, climb or do anything ninja like when you die if you dont cuddle behind all of the boxes.

Please tell me how that would be an improvement of the game.

Please tell me how that would not kill the unique aspect of this game of ninjaing your way forwards to slaughter the enemies at close range.

Please tell me how any other style of gameplay would be viable with how hard the enemies would *have* to hit to be any sort of challenge for the box cuddlers.

[fatpig84]

Op has a point on point 1 though.

I already pointed this out as a newbie as well (i joined 30th May 2013).

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/65114-make-blueprints-purchasable-in-arsenal-warframe-screen/#entry682634

Edited July 12, 2013 by fatpig84

[Ced23Ric]

Obmoc, thank you for the time to write a feedback that has well-constructed format and points.

 

Nevertheless, as others have pointed out, it seems quite apparent that you took your vocational background and assumed that you have a great spark here. It is only detrimental to your goals that you seemingly did not take the time to investigate what you were commenting on, though. The FAQ alone addresses both the cover system and the PvP aspect of your posts. Blueprints, are something easily learned about when playing the game. The lackluster tutorial in that regard is an issue DE is aware off, but currently has on the backburner. If you follow these forums, you will learn quickly that both DE and the community are quite educated on where it itches, so to speak.

 

I suggest you read the Hot Topics (current developer focus), watch the Livestreams (new releases) and read the FAQ (all-time standing stances). Play the game for a bit, get a feel for it and then give some more feedback. It is usually beneficial to let thoughts simmer a bit and try them out before posting such a thread. :)

 

Welcome to the fold!

[VScipii26]

I agree with almost everything, and most of it has been said by the community as a whole.

PvP I do not agree with. While it could be nice, it would not be nice right now. Why? Because Mag has a radial pull and stun ability for 25 damage, and could also equip the Boar. That's at least one dead character, and wit the right loadout, it could be TPKO in a matter of seconds. This applies to almost every Frame.
The amount of reworking that would go into the game in order to make the PvP actually viable would be asinine for a PvE focused game.

I'm hard pressed about the cover system, simply because of my common play style, which is "Pink Rhino, three shotguns, and an axe."
While I do deviate from it, I think it should be said that I don't believe the the DEs knew exactly who they were attracting with their most recent tagline "Ninjas play for free."

I think you're focusing on "Stealth" and "Ninja" a little too much. I'm not sure how the DEs will approach puzzle platforming, wall running traps, etc. They seem to change their underlying direction every time they have a whole number update.

[Soaron]

PLEASE NO COVER SYSTEM!!! STOP COVER SYSTEMS FOREVER!!

 

In fact the reason I play Warframe with such joy other than games like Mass Effect, or any of those that require the cover system is because there is NO cover system! Cover system makes shooter games slow paced cover fests. Cover, shoot shoot. Cover, Cover, shoot, shoot, Cover.. Lame. To me Mass Effect gameplay now seems like a clunky, broken, slow, cumbersome endeavor.

 

The greatest quality of Warframe comes from its freedom in movement. Have you tried crouching next to a box?! Believe me, it works almost exactly like the cover systems.

 

Cover-Systems should be rendered obsolete in gaming and evading bullets and attacks should be now all based on freedom of movement.

[Various]

I just read the first post and began writing this.  So if any of it has already been said, I apologize.

 

How I see things... :

 

Marketplace: Warframe already does everything you've suggested.  Everything (except the boosters and the extra slots for Warframes and weapons) can be acquired through either some form of farming, or the alert system.  I do agree on the organization of the stores though.  At first glance, it does suggest that a lot of the equipment is buy only.  While a more in depth look is needed, I think a quick fix might be to move all the blueprints and credit bought stuff to the front, and push all the plat / instant-buy stuff to the back.

 

Clan Identification:

 

Cool!  Nothing to say here.  Too bad I'm not in a clan.  ^^;;

 

Mutliplayer PVP:

 

Just.... no...  I understand the appeal, and admit would love watching a few of these hypothetical games.  But in my humble opinion, it would do more harm than good.  As soon as this is introduced, there's going to be a whole mess of balance issues to deal with.  Loki and Ash have Invisibility,  Frost has Snowglobe, Vauban has Bastille, Mag has Pull and Bullet Attractor (the latter becoming incredibly huge with the alternate helm and the Stretch Mod), and Trinity has... all her skills.  Link by itself would be a beast, and combined with Energy Vampire, the only way to beat her would be to keep far, faaaar away from her as Link has a pretty good range by default.  A lot of these abilities that just shuts down options for others would be incredibly OP, and then the screams for nerfs will occur, and then DE will have to either ignore these players because PVP balance isn't their main concern right now, or they'd have to pull extra resources into balancing these characters for PVP.  And these aren't even including all the frames ultimates.

 

No.  As far as PVP is concerned, the dueling room in the Dojo should be as far as it goes.  It allows players to try it out and have fun with it, but keeps the message that "This is a PVE Co Op centric game," which will let player understand that any PVP orientated balance cries will most likely be ignored.  As soon as you introduce any type of competitive PVP (and cross clan team PVP is competitive, even if there are no rewards), it will shift the focus of the game a lot.  If you want to fight people from other clans, maybe ask for a way to invite others into your dojo? Of course, keeping things like Dojo specific BP's restricted and whatnot.

 

Level Design:

 

Difficulty: Nightmare mode is coming!

 

Point 1 (Cover): As a big fan of stealth games, I agree with this, though I can't say I fully back it.  I'm just not sure how well it will be implemented since the game is already so far along.  Also, the preferred play style currently seems to be "Rush in and kill all the things!" simply because it's faster and the farming nature of the game.  If DE does decide to try, I hope it's cover for stealth, and not cover for combat.  Also, controls.  Mass Effect 3 made the mistake of oversimplifying the controls, so sometimes while you're trying to run to get some distance, you get stuck in cover, or stuck trying to revive a fallen friend, or activating an objective.  *Sigh* Memories of misfortune...

 

Point 2 (Depth):  Warframe already has this to some extent.  The Grineer tend to fight you from cover with a few tricks to get you out if you're hiding. The shield guys protect the guys behind them (or try. They're not very good at it) and sometimes rush you to knock you down.  Scorpions pull you.  Rollers annoy you.  And they also have flamethrower guys.  As for bigger and tougher guys, they have their commanders.  The Infested rush you with everything they got, stealing your energy, poisoning you, healing themselves, and sometimes stunlocking you and knocking you down.  The Corpus are more shooty than the Grineer, with stronger firearms and only the stomping MOA's and baton guys to rush you.  But have some tricks up their sleeves as well, like the different types of drones that support their guys or hinders you.  And there are other types of MOA's as well.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about bosses for every level.  Maybe they can appear randomly like the Stalker but with a higher chance?  Having them appear in every level feels like it might just add another level of repetition that players will just get used to.  Even with the randomized loadouts.

 

Point 3 (Platforming and Puzzles):  There are already hidden rooms and secret paths that can only be gotten to with a combination of acrobatics.  If you're talking about enforcing it or requiring acrobatics to progress, DE already stated that they want to first improve the wall-running mechanic and create a tutorial for it before they start considering requiring it in certain tiles.  And even then, it will probably be minimal, or there will always be an option for a long running path, as not everyone can get the hang of it so easily.

 

As I do like logic puzzles, I just don't really see in making much sense in this universe, other than in the hacking minigame... thing...  I don't know, maybe sense isn't required, but it will still have to aesthetically work before it can work in any other way (other than functionality, but that's a given).

 

Anyway my 2 cents... or more than that I guess... Sorry.  Turned out longer than I thought it would be.

 

Edit:  Just realized this came out a lot more aggressive than I meant to be.  Sorry.  >_<

[Venarge]

people with the no PVP go express that somewhere else please.

There wouldnt be the need to express it anywhere if people would finally accept that this game is meant to be PVE....