Did Valkyr Prime's trailer just confirm the sentience of warframes?

[(XBOX)Rey Za BurreI]

On 3/12/2017 at 11:46 AM, aligatorno said:

 

"They burn with our lost desires, lost instincts. Tenno tamed, but only just. Cast and haunted as game, trapped and tortured,yet they remained Animals. "

We had lots of clues pointing to them being infested, and we had that scene at the end of SD. Is this the first time we got something conclusive about their sentience? 

You're seriously thinking too deep into a trailer thats sole purpose is to advertise a frame. Even know this same trailer is waaaaay late.

[EmptyDevil]

13 hours ago, Blakrana said:

A kind of psychological imprint, essentially? Much how we leave a mark on paper when we spill ink on it, a user may impact a Warframe's neural uptake in some way?

In that case...would it be reasonable to say that's where the personality at large for each class of Warframe comes from? All it takes is the initial blank being employed in tests, then the final proven version taken to production...now with that 'imprint' in play. In theory.

Precisely. We've seen the phrase "Void Imprint" a few times in game IIRC, so it could be similar to that.

[Blakrana]

2 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

Precisely. We've seen the phrase "Void Imprint" a few times in game IIRC, so it could be similar to that.

And due to Transference carrying the Void power with it, there's some ground to that. Especially seeing as the Void seems to operate on a psionic level; a blank slate body is prime ground to imprint on.

Could this be why the Void drove the Zariman crew mad? Something about it impacting their mental state? Though that's into 'wild speculation' territory really.

[Photovoltaeic]

12 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I've said this many times in other threads, whatever the beast of the Rhino Prime Codex is, it is not a Warframe. It was made before even the notion of Warframes existed because that began with Davis and the other discovering that  transference can be weaponized.

Sure, part of whatever made that beast most likely ended up as a part of the Rhino Warframe, maybe even all Warframes but to make explicit suggestions of "Because the beast X then warframes X" is just as much a mistake as saying that because a cow can eat grass and produce milk that obviously a leather jacket can do the same.

You do bring up a good point. Lets agree to disagree.'-

Needless to say, you have some very fascinating theories. :) (I really mean it. They are well developed, and show considerable time and effort into their formulation) :)

[SilentMobius]

On 12/03/2017 at 8:37 PM, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

We are missing something in these Trailers- these are images from the PAST. 

...

Lore videos show us info from the past....

I don't think we're missing anything, the idea that these trailers are set pre-cryo is simply not supported.

We have commentary on the creation of the Corpus Moa in the Anti-Moa Synth and it was made quite clear that before the Old War the Orokin has something akin to Moa's but very different, and that the child's crude creation was the origin of the modern-day Corpus Moas.

The Moa's of the Vauban Prime Trailer are identical to the modern Corpus Moa's meaning that this trailer is overwhelmingly likely to have been set post-cryo

The Infested in the Saryn Prime Trailer use chargers, that are infested Grinner, complete with the clumsy armour that was developed by the devolution of Orokin technology after the fall. Again, overwhelmingly likely to be set post-cryo.

And the Banshee Prime trailer, shows modern Grineer, not fresh Orokin produced and armed Grineer but modern-day retrograde Grineer. Also, there is no indication at all there there was any reason for the Tenno to fight the Grineer around the time of the Old War, as they were on the same side, fighting the Sentients.

Overall there is zero indication that the Trailers are set pre-cryo and a myriad of reason why they cannot be.

Obviously, like the historical audio snippets in the Second Dream, Ballas' unconnected voice-overs could well be historical, and most likely are, but that's all they are: voice overs.

When the Corpus start using that turret device in-game it will of course confirm that these trailer are set post-cryo.

[SilentMobius]

On 2017-3-13 at 0:27 AM, Blakrana said:

So in a sense, an assortment of specific traits and elements to help predispose users of a given Warframe to particular forms of conduct? Fair, and does at least tie into the somewhat 'dream/Jungian' aspects going on, however slight. Without a conscious mind it'd be inert but with one, it serves as a subtle influence? Could explain Silvanna recounting 'another' presence per her 'like ink' line, possibly.

Either way, guess we'll just have to wait and see what's going on. Does make sense to suspect there's something to mitigate any sense of body dysphoria, at least.

Thanks for clarifying, any rate.

Just to be clear I not espousing this idea as a theory, I'm just using it as one example of the many possible explanation that fit what we currently know that don't completely obliterate any sense of morality that our characters had and disincentivise participating in the game.

I'm happy to find out what DE wants to do, so long as it doesn't ruin the game, which inherently sapient (and to a lesser extent inherently sentient) Warframes would do.

I explained the situation to my wife last night using a fantasy analogue of magical children controlling stone golems, then adding the later reveal of breeding wolves that were the fused core of the golems. She said she would be disgusted and would feel betrayed by the author of an interactive story did that to the character she had been building empathy with.

This is the sort of reaction I hope we avoid with Warframe

Edited May 23, 2017 by SilentMobius

[Blakrana]

1 minute ago, SilentMobius said:

Just to be clear I not espousing this idea as a theory, I'm just using it as one example of the many possible explanation that fit what we currently know that don't completely obliterate any sense of morality that our characters had and disincentivise participating in the game.

That's fair; stating possibilities, as it were.

I mean, as you state there's interesting ways to play around with 'living weapon' without treading into the 'inherently revoking the autonomy of a sentient or more creature'. We can attribute a great deal of personhood in the inanimate and lifeless, after all. See people and cars/bikes/computers and the like. A lack of...'essence' for want of a better short hand, doesn't stop one from projecting onto it...indeed can facilitate it. Could even be coping mechanism for some, treating a 'thing' as not a 'thing'.

3 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

I explained the situation to my wife last night using a fantasy analogue magical children controlling stone golems, then adding the later reveal of breeding wolves that were the fused core of the golems. She said she would be disgusted and would feel betrayed by the author if and interactive story did that to the character she had been building empathy with.

Quite. It'd be like telling someone in an RP group that their entire character's stance is different without appropriate grounding at all, just 'GM fiat' out of the blue. No sensible person would be comfortable with the GM just telling them 'you're actually evil because of this thing I never told you was morally dubious from square one'.

There's nothing clever about just...retroactively rewriting player character narrative on something that you cannot actually choose to engage with outside of never getting involved in the first place. In a situation where we're supposed to be able to define a character, to craft a role as we see fit...twisting the field of play isn't a compelling 'shock twist', it's character railroading that contravenes the whole idea of making distinct characters.

Even the 'they're actually the antagonist' reveals for characters requires build up and grounding, for it to have any weight.

Either way, appreciate the patience in clarifying things. Sorry for going on, as always.

[SilentMobius]

On 2017-3-14 at 0:24 PM, Blakrana said:

Quite. It'd be like telling someone in an RP group that their entire character's stance is different without appropriate grounding at all, just 'GM fiat' out of the blue. No sensible person would be comfortable with the GM just telling them 'you're actually evil because of this thing I never told you was morally dubious from square one'.

Not only that, but the GM would then tell you that you can no longer get XP unless you keep doing the evil thing, because acquiring, building, using, selling Warframes and parts of Warframes is still part of the primary progress mechanism in this game.

On 2017-3-14 at 0:24 PM, Blakrana said:

Either way, appreciate the patience in clarifying things. Sorry for going on, as always.

No problem, I don't think you were going on, I'm always happy (eager even) to discuss what's possible and the implications, I just don't like "theorising" as we have so little information that the possible solution space is massive and player theories that graduate to "fact" due to repetition (Like the notion that Nova was crated post cryo and that pre Corpus Valkyr must have different powers to post Corpus Valkyr or the current idea that "The Corpus existed during the Orokin Era" as was previously relied upon in this very thread) have caused significant problem in the past with players claiming that "DE have broken their own lore" when in actual fact so little has been outright stated that what they consider "settled lore" is actually player assumption.

That said, there are contrary examples of settled facts that were still debated. Like the very existence of an operator-like entity. Regardless of the details for their nature the game was always clear on the Story, Progression, Equipment all being based on one "character" and Warframes were just one of those pieces of equipment, and yet there were those who chose to assert the contrary.

Which is why I try to assert nothing that can't be directly quoted from the game or a Devstream

Edited May 23, 2017 by SilentMobius

[Blakrana]

9 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Not only that, but the GM would then tell you that you can no longer get XP unless you keep doing the evil thing, because acquiring, building, using, selling Warframes and parts of Warframes is still part of the primary progress mechanism in this game.

At which point, it's either play the new NPC you've had forced upon you, or leave. No fun for no benefit at all.

10 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

No problem, I don't think you were going on, I'm always happy (eager even) to discuss what's possible and the implications, I just don't like "theorising" as we have so little information that the possible solution space is massive and player theories that graduate to "fact" due to repetition (Like the notion that Nova was crated post cryo and that pre Corpus Valkyr must have different powers to post Corpus Valkyr or the current idea that "The Corpus existed during the Orokin Era" as was previously relied upon in this very thread) have cause significant problem in the past with players claiming that "DE have broken their own lore" when in actual fact so little has been outright stated that what they consider "settled lore" is actually player assumption.

That said, there are contrary examples of settled facts that were still debated. Like the very existence of an operator-like entity. Regardless of the details for their nature the game was always clear on the Story, Progression, Equipment all being based on one "character" and Warframes were just one of those pieces of equipment, and yet there were those who chose to assert the contrary.

Which is why I try to assert nothing that can't be directly quoted from the game or a Devstream

It's a fair policy, especially considering the situations you noted being part of the constant circularity of 'this is wrong/right' when it isn't as clear cut as some like.

Though I guess underscoring when the discussion veers towards theory, conjecture and the like past the bounds of evidence, doesn't flow as nicely as "We have the answer!", "It's obviously x!" or the like. May simply be something that comes down to those of us who do dabble in that scale of things, to be more self aware and consider the importance of such disclaimers.

Passion is good, but shouldn't bring us to neglect when evidence veers into fabrications and not detailing as such.

[DeMonkey]

18 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I've said this many times in other threads, whatever the beast of the Rhino Prime Codex is, it is not a Warframe. It was made before even the notion of Warframes existed because that began with Davis and the other discovering that  transference can be weaponized.

Sure, part of whatever made that beast most likely ended up as a part of the Rhino Warframe, maybe even all Warframes but to make explicit suggestions of "Because the beast X then warframes X" is just as much a mistake as saying that because a cow can eat grass and produce milk that obviously a leather jacket can do the same.

Going to have to disagree with you completely. 

The Rhino in the entry is far far closer to current Rhino than a Leather Jacket is to a cow. I'd even go so far as to say your statements are hyperbolic to the extreme.

1) In the entry the creature literally used 3 of Rhino's abilities (Iron Skin, Charge and Roar in that order), abilities that are unique and iconic to the frame we currently use. The creature was also controlled by a Tenno at the end.

You seem to think there's a gulf between the War 'Creature' and the 'Warframe', but honestly I only see a short step. It was already a weapon, it had Rhino's abilities and it was controllable by the Tenno.

2) Contrary to yourself, I believe Davis had figured out they could be weaponised before the codex entry took place, towards the end he laughs aloud and...

''Davis whispers, "No one would have believed me."''

... after the Tenno has taken control, meaning he had already guessed and bet his life on the fact that they would. This likely means he has been working towards this goal for some time, the creature has very likely been engineered specifically for remote control via the Tenno.

The monster in the codex entry was imo most certainly a frame. More of an beast than a machine, but a Warframe nonetheless.

[Akavakaku]

I think that to fully understand the Valkyr Prime trailer we need the full context. 

Our long deathless winter has left us numb. Our wasted animal within, ugly and gaunt, hibernates beneath shimmering beauty.

This is clearly Ballas speaking about his fellow Orokin.

Why do these Warframes stir us so?
They burn with our lost desires, lost instincts, tenno-tamed.. but only just.
Cast and hunted as game. Trapped and tortured, yet they remain animals.
Less than the human seed, gnawing their limbs from the snare, devouring a banquet of suffering.
Obese with heat and acid.. and rage.
That is why they will destroy us.

This part cannot be about the Operators. The first noun in the paragraph is "Warframes," so it would be very bad English for the following uses of "they" to refer to anything else.

Even if you ignore that point, interpreting it as "Tenno, tamed but only just" doesn't work because it would make the phrasing "They burn with our lost desires, lost instincts, Tenno, tamed, but only just." I definitely heard a comma after "instincts." Even if there is a period there instead, this interpretation would flow much better as "Tenno burn with our lost desires, lost instincts. Tamed, but only just." Since this is not the case, I doubt this interpretation is correct. 

So then, let's consider the consequences of warframe sentience for the Tenno. Yes, one way of writing it in could be that these are sentient beings we are subjugating into fighting for us, against their will.

But I doubt it. Transference was developed by Margulis. The real Lynn Margulis was a scientist who studied symbiosis. This makes it seem like they're hinting at a symbiotic relationship between Operator and warframe. Although Transference was not intended to be used as a weapon, arming the warframes doesn't change their basic relationship to the Operator. Margulis even oversaw their design herself (Silver Grove).

So I'd say the warframe is probably an accepting and mutually benefited, sentient companion to the Operator, similarly to a Kubrow or Kavat. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Akavakaku

[Lawmonark]

Warframes were created to fight both "other" Orokin creations.

To kill the infested and the sentiants.

 

So, what did the Orokin do? They combined the two. The frame is sentiant and the body inside is Infested.  >>>> hope this is the story

[Latiac]

It's highly likely - We are only TWO quests deep so far, and with many more to come it only seems plausible that there is more to it than just Operators...

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

On 3/12/2017 at 10:06 AM, Zanoza-chan said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I mean it CAN be controlled. could your chair be controlled by transference? nope. that's why I think the Maw is not just orokin automation.

and noone says the warframes has similar IQ to human, for example. they are simplified beings, ye, like animals. but surely a living beings, not just a things.

and ofc we cannot know exactly. waiting for new quests to know more clear...

 

 

This is a bad comparison. Chairs are no an automaton. Being automated requires some level of computing hardware. Whether it's organic like a brain/central nervous system which would imply sentience and perhaps even sapience, or just nervous ganglia which implies only animation like a bivalve(clams, muscles, oysters etc), it could also be electronic like a central processor, hard drive, ram etc. Chairs don't have this, but animals, Warframes, robots(non sentient, the stuff that works on assembly lines), cyborgs(half organic half synthetic), androids(fully sapient machine made to look indistinguishable frima human) and other synthetics(synthetic is just a non-organic living being, this doesn't include clones, or genetic modifications) have.

The Warframe probably are sentient(like a cat or dog), but not sapient(like a human). But we COULD definitely look at all of the, "evidence," for them being sentient and find that the aren't.

1. As pointed out it could be the tenno who were not tamed.

2. The creature in the Rhino Prime codex is not a warframe but some sort of infested that was used as a demonstration that they could be controlled as a biowepaon. This could be prior to even using infested to make Warframes. The infested could be like the black goo or xenomorphs in Prometheus used as a weapon. Or it could be the first prototype in the technologies used for a Warframe and it's ability to think was removed to make it less of a ticking time bomb to work with. Making all supsequent Warframes operate closer to a bivalve than a cat, and definitely less than a human.

3. The Warframe removing the sword from itself in the second dream could be a hint at transference without contact or the transference machine like was explored in the War Within quest.

4. Helminth could be fluke, and it could be exerting it's will over Warframes. We don't know how infested operate and if they're a hive mind or more accurately a collective intelligence. Helminth could very well have influence over your Warframe if this is the case. Think about the Geth in Mass Effect. They were Rudimentary in intelligence when each very primitive AI was isolated in a single body. However when multiple worked together it could offload some processes and gain awareness and eventually full sapience and that's what led to the Geth becoming a true AI instead of a VI. Thanks Warframes could have zero awareness until Helminth put it's influence over them, or another prominent infested. This could also be how infested Alad could control Warframes as well.

Edited March 15, 2017 by silkygoodness

[EmptyDevil]

18 hours ago, Blakrana said:

And due to Transference carrying the Void power with it, there's some ground to that. Especially seeing as the Void seems to operate on a psionic level; a blank slate body is prime ground to imprint on.

Could this be why the Void drove the Zariman crew mad? Something about it impacting their mental state? Though that's into 'wild speculation' territory really.

That is an interesting thought. Children do have a more pliable mind than adults, it adapts much more easily than an adult's mind would. I would assume constantly absorbing information like a sponge, readily adapting to new stimuli at a better rate, could be why the children were completely unaffected by the Void madness.

Edited March 15, 2017 by EmptyDevil

[(PSN)MrSnakeyRandom]

Tenno quote: "The infested, An orokin weapon that backfired"

"The warframes, an orokin weapon that backfired"

We know the infested were a desperate attempt to end a war by the orokin, which is exactly what the warframes were. We know that the infested ended the orokin, which is exactly what the tenno did. We know that the tenno don't remember the day they destroyed the orokins, mainly because the warframes regained consciousness and did it themselves.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

20 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I don't think we're missing anything, the idea that these trailers are set pre-cryo is simply not supported.

We have commentary on the creation of the Corpus Moa in the Anti-Moa Synth and it was made quite clear that before the Old War the Orokin has something akin to Moa's but very different, and that the child's crude creation was the origin of the modern-day Corpus Moas.

The Moa's of the Vauban Prime Trailer are identical to the modern Corpus Moa's meaning that this trailer is overwhelmingly likely to have been set post-cryo

The Infested in the Saryn Prime Trailer use chargers, that are infested Grinner, complete with the clumsy armour that was developed by the devolution of Orokin technology after the fall. Again, overwhelmingly likely to be set post-cryo.

And the Banshee Prime trailer, shows modern Grineer, not fresh Orokin produced and armed Grineer but modern-day retrograde Grineer. Also, there is no indication at all there there was any reason for the Tenno to fight the Grineer around the time of the Old War, as they were on the same side, fighting the Sentients.

Overall there is zero indication that the Trailers are set pre-cryo and a myriad of reason why they cannot be.

Obviously, like the historical audio snippets in the Second Dream, Ballas' unconnected voice-overs could well be historical, and most likely are, but that's all they are: voice overs.

When the Corpus start using that turret device in-game it will of course confirm that these trailer are set post-cryo.

Fairly well put. I had a 17 page informative reply but I am just going to say this- We have no idea when the Old War started, ended, how much time the Tenno that were left outside of the moon lived for, until we "the hero" woke up. The Old War could have last a few hundred years, then after the OROKIN were found and dispatched by the Tenno (which could have taken years or decades to do), these were the Frames left behind.

LOTUS has not told the Tenno how much time has passed or what she was doing from the time she put the moon into the VOID til the time we woke our first Frame. It was not days...might have been centuries. In this time, the Frames that were left out might have done their own thing....such as found a way to modify the Frames ala Acolytes.

The thing that makes this trailer relevant to being in the past is that we know what happens to VALK. We know she gets captured at some point by the CORPUS. This might have been that first attempt to capture her and then next attempt they used 4 machines. How did Alad V capture VALK to give us the VALKRIE line we have had for ages?

In the time from the last OROKIN falling until we wake up should be a long time. Many things would have been lost to the ages (as it seems we are always finding something from some past time). The same can be said for VAUB trailer with the MOA and BURSA. The same can be said for the GRINNY in BANSHEE and NEKROS trailers. That could have been the new things 100's of years ago and we are still dealing with them being seen as NEWLY MADE because COLUMBUSING stuff is a real thing. Neffy could have found the BP for the BURSA and thought, lets add some twists....and then claim he made them all along. As time would go forth, the Tenno threat would have decreased since there were not anymore orokin to create new Tenno.

TL;DR- without having a timeframe, these images could have happened 100's to 1000's of years before we woke up. Not seeing them being a new event that happened after we woke up. Especially when going by the descrition of the weapons (Nikana Prime for example).

Enjoy everyone....great thoughts and talk.

[JalakBali]

On 3/13/2017 at 10:17 PM, kbowser said:

I believe Warframes have sentience. They are capable of feeling, they act of their own volition. The Rhino Prime codex is an exemplary example of this- The Rhino rampages around the room and kills the guards. It then shovels gore into its mouth, and then sees the scientists. It recognizes the scientists, and then attacks to exact revenge. Then when it enters the room where they keep the survivors of the Zariman, it stops and cant stop examining its hands. This clearly shows a prioritization from defense, self-repair (another theory I will list at bottom), and revenge.

I read that part as this (especially after combining clues about transference): the scientist ran into the room that's obviously not his jurisdiction and not well known. Davis, the other scientist, was already there and beckoned him in. The rampaging proto-Rhino went in and suddenly became calm. I assume that Davis altered or modified the transference system that is already partially used on the Ten Zero kids in that room so they could dream, and used it on the proto-Rhino. Suddenly a Ten Zero dreamer is inhabiting the warframe and was examining his new body and hands. At this time, the Orokin already had transference tech as they used it for themselves to be immortal. As the dream could be "adjusted", they figured they could use the Ten Zero kids to indefinitely control the warframes since humans cannot survive for long while using transference on them (per Silver Grove lore).

[JalakBali]

13 hours ago, Akavakaku said:

I think that to fully understand the Valkyr Prime trailer we need the full context. 

Our long deathless winter has left us numb. Our wasted animal within, ugly and gaunt, hibernates beneath shimmering beauty.

This is clearly Ballas speaking about his fellow Orokin.

Why do these Warframes stir us so?
They burn with our lost desires, lost instincts, tenno-tamed.. but only just.
Cast and hunted as game. Trapped and tortured, yet they remain animals.
Less than the human seed, gnawing their limbs from the snare, devouring a banquet of suffering.
Obese with heat and acid.. and rage.
That is why they will destroy us.

This part cannot be about the Operators. The first noun in the paragraph is "Warframes," so it would be very bad English for the following uses of "they" to refer to anything else.

Even if you ignore that point, interpreting it as "Tenno, tamed but only just" doesn't work because it would make the phrasing "They burn with our lost desires, lost instincts, Tenno, tamed, but only just." I definitely heard a comma after "instincts." Even if there is a period there instead, this interpretation would flow much better as "Tenno burn with our lost desires, lost instincts. Tamed, but only just." Since this is not the case, I doubt this interpretation is correct. 

So then, let's consider the consequences of warframe sentience for the Tenno. Yes, one way of writing it in could be that these are sentient beings we are subjugating into fighting for us, against their will.

But I doubt it. Transference was developed by Margulis. The real Lynn Margulis was a scientist who studied symbiosis. This makes it seem like they're hinting at a symbiotic relationship between Operator and warframe. Although Transference was not intended to be used as a weapon, arming the warframes doesn't change their basic relationship to the Operator. Margulis even oversaw their design herself (Silver Grove).

So I'd say the warframe is probably an accepting and mutually benefited, sentient companion to the Operator, similarly to a Kubrow or Kavat. 

I read that as warframes being humans that were infected with technocyte to create weapons. Most were failures because they became wild and uncontrollable and thus used for entertainment (maybe for hunting or even gladiator style arenas) because the Orokin were d*cks and they also envy the raw instincts of these creatures. But at any end, when they became warframes, their human mind was gone. The Tenno is probably injecting them with humanity by mind melding with them so with the Tenno "controlling" them, they became complete and no longer mindless beasts. Of course, then we have the Stalker, who might be a rogue warframe without a Tenno, or the result of full transference of a non-Tenno with a warframe.

[--RV--Shadow]

On 12. 3. 2017 at 6:13 PM, Blakrana said:

It's implied that the Archimedian Perintol is responsible for the entities that would go on to become the Sentients, in the Crewman Synthesis. At that time, corpus seems to be implied to refer to either a family unit, or perhaps a guild.

We don't get the beginnings of the Corpus as we know it till after the Collapse, noted in the Anti-Moa Synthesis.

I agree that it does sound to be focused on the Warframes, indeed this is the first trailer where Ballas even mentions the Tenno directly at all in the dialogue; even Banshee's trailer, closest he gets is 'Void demons' or such. However...ambiguity being what it is, I imagine we're going to see a lot of 'yes/no' around how it's meant to be interpreted. Still...it's information. Poetically couched information open to interpretation, mind, but information nonetheless. We're just going to have to see this being built off of in some capacity.

Though...I think I will give one thing to the discussion: much of Orokin technology in general skirts the line between organic and mechanical, living technology such as the Arboriforms being their motifs. Whatever the Warframes are, it's certainly fitting for Orokin trends that there's some kind of melding of these aspects, though the resulting existence doesn't seem to...least at this time...necessarily function independently. It might, but right now...too little hard evidence to say 'yes, they can function independently'.

If i look at rhino in codex i will see creature so called monster...thats the first thing

Second excalibur codex "we built a frame around them" 

Third thing is transference and operators

 

Now just tie it together

Orokin wanted a weapon against sentients so

Orokin created living organism with technocyte virus (rhino codex) capable of wrecking chaos on its own

Then they built "suit" around this creature maybe to make it more powerful as a weapon with build in "neuroptics" to control this weapon on command transference link was established (this theory would explain how can warframes act on their own without tenno controling them)

Later orokin found out that normal human being is not that much capable of controling warframe and even risks to be trapped in warframe forever (stalker and maybe acolytes) so they turned on Tenno and found out they can controll warframes at ease..

Thats one of options how the story could be..at least about how warframes was created

[Photovoltaeic]

19 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Going to have to disagree with you completely. 

The Rhino in the entry is far far closer to current Rhino than a Leather Jacket is to a cow. I'd even go so far as to say your statements are hyperbolic to the extreme.

1) In the entry the creature literally used 3 of Rhino's abilities (Iron Skin, Charge and Roar in that order), abilities that are unique and iconic to the frame we currently use. The creature was also controlled by a Tenno at the end.

Initially I held the same opinion you did- but I have to point this out- it doesn't say it was the rhino frame. It just seems similar to that. I cannot say it was pure technocyte or it was a proto-warframe... 

I think we see the codex entry under rhino and associate it with the warframe it was released with- and usually it is the case. but not exclusively.
I think @SilentMobius has a good point- theories are best founded on un-interpreted data. (i.e. if it doesn't say it was the rhino frame exclusively, it may not be the rhino warframe). Its like saying ballas is dead. We can't prove a thing one way or the other. Dev's haven't released anything. All we can do is theorize that that warframes are "x" based from exhibit "A" and text"z" and movie "q"

[Zanoza-chan]

16 hours ago, silkygoodness said:

Helminth could be fluke, and it could be exerting it's will over Warframes.

I agree that I did not take into account all the sources. Especially I forgot about Rhino Prime Codex entry.

But I highly disagree with suggestion that Helminth could be a fluke - just remember what Ordis said when you entered the Helminth room for first time.

Anyway, we are just making the blind assumptions here... We have a lot ahead, many info, many quests, many explanations. We need just calm down and wait, and maybe DE's answers will surpass all our expectations.

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

35 minutes ago, Zanoza-chan said:

I agree that I did not take into account all the sources. Especially I forgot about Rhino Prime Codex entry.

But I highly disagree with suggestion that Helminth could be a fluke - just remember what Ordis said when you entered the Helminth room for first time.

Anyway, we are just making the blind assumptions here... We have a lot ahead, many info, many quests, many explanations. We need just calm down and wait, and maybe DE's answers will surpass all our expectations.

I think it autocorrected and the word I meant to use was not fluke. I forgot what I meant to say now though.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, kbowser said:

Initially I held the same opinion you did- but I have to point this out- it doesn't say it was the rhino frame. It just seems similar to that. I cannot say it was pure technocyte or it was a proto-warframe... 

I think we see the codex entry under rhino and associate it with the warframe it was released with- and usually it is the case. but not exclusively.
I think @SilentMobius has a good point- theories are best founded on un-interpreted data. (i.e. if it doesn't say it was the rhino frame exclusively, it may not be the rhino warframe). Its like saying ballas is dead. We can't prove a thing one way or the other. Dev's haven't released anything. All we can do is theorize that that warframes are "x" based from exhibit "A" and text"z" and movie "q"

Sure, it doesn't say explicitly it was the Rhino frame. I never said it does say it's the Rhino frame.

However I think that there's more evidence for it being the Rhino frame than anything else.

1) The codex is about Rhino Prime. Excaliburs entry is about Excalibur, Mag Primes entry is about Mag Prime, (At the time of release only she and Ember were Primed females, Ember isn't as ornate nor as slender, it's also far easier to describe Ember P than Mag P, ''Chick's head is literally on fire'' springs to mind. Ember also has her own separate codex entry anyway) Ember Primes entry is not necessarily about Ember Prime herself, but certainly the foundation for the creation of her frame. To suggest that the Rhino Prime entry is about something other than Rhino is a little silly imo.

2) It uses Rhino's abilities. If it had used Rhino charge and then set itself on fire or something then sure, it could be a generic creation from when they were experimenting. But it used Rhino's abilities and only Rhino's abilities.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

This is just semantics at the end of the day.

Edited March 15, 2017 by DeMonkey

[SilentMobius]

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

Fairly well put. I had a 17 page informative reply but I am just going to say this- We have no idea when the Old War started, ended, how much time the Tenno that were left outside of the moon lived for, until we "the hero" woke up. The Old War could have last a few hundred years, then after the OROKIN were found and dispatched by the Tenno (which could have taken years or decades to do), these were the Frames left behind.

We may not have times but we do have a implied order.

Old War -> The Start of the Fall

The Start of the Fall -> The Rebellion of the Grineer

The Rebellion of the Grineer -> The events of the Anti Moa Synth

However long the Tenno stayed active after the fall of the Orokin we have nothing that suggests that any Tenno other than the Stalker (If "Tenno" is a usable for the Stalker) was active until the modern-day awakening by the Lotus

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

The thing that makes this trailer relevant to being in the past is that we know what happens to VALK. We know she gets captured at some point by the CORPUS. This might have been that first attempt to capture her and then next attempt they used 4 machines. How did Alad V capture VALK to give us the VALKRIE line we have had for ages?

That happened at the start of the Gradivus dilemma during the modern age. The launch information for the Gradivus dilemma was:

Quote

Intel shows a growing conflict that will begin on Gradivus in Mars. Expect it to spread. The Grineer are planning an operation against the Corpus lead by Sargas Ruk. Alad V of the Corpus has discovered a cache of Tenno in cryo-sleep and intends on exploiting them for his secret weapons project.

This was supposed to introduce Valkyr as a Warframe+Tenno (in the pre-Second Dream context) that Alad V had found in stasis. as was mentioned in the devstreams of the time (I'll try and find a link when i have access to my devstream archive)

It is possible that Valkyr was not among the captured stasis pods, but it would be unusual for this to the the focus of the event that led to Valkyr and for the lead-up to be unrelated.

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

TL;DR- without having a timeframe, these images could have happened 100's to 1000's of years before we woke up. Not seeing them being a new event that happened after we woke up. Especially when going by the descrition of the weapons (Nikana Prime for example).

Enjoy everyone....great thoughts and talk.

The specific number of years doesn't matter. We know specific latch points:

Orokin fall, the Tenno sleep, The Corpus as we know them do not appear to exist at this point, the anti-moa synth show us the genesis of the Corpus-as-we-now-know-them. The next point that Tenno are awake is post-Cryo according to the Stalker. What we currently know precludes the modern Corpus and a Tenno being active at the same time any time before the start-of-game Tenno awakening.

Edited March 15, 2017 by SilentMobius