Think of the Vets

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3V4-Nq5URI&t=962s

Dear DE Devs.

I want to begin by thanking you all for the masterpiece you have let so many of us experience, Warframe. This is my favorite game, and I have been playing it since it came out on Ps4. what initially attracted me to Warframe was its free to play, what made me stay and keep playing it was the amazing world design, weapons, Warframes, and especially the feeling of badassness I got every time I took on an army as a solo ninja-robot-wizard-warrior-wrecking ball of bullets and swords.

I just happened upon iFlynn's video "Warframe: is a game about Grinding" and all the amazing memories I have of this game came back, the feels were intoxicating for a moment, but it disappeared with the understanding I got from them, the game isn't what it used to be, in incredible jaw-dropping ways, as well as in the ways people like me who have played for so long can't recognize many of the things that were good about it. As iFlynn says in the video Warframe has become too easy for the vets and for new players to catch up to them ( in this context I consider myself a vet in the time I have spent playing, not in ability nor some superiority-seeking sense), this results in the loss of a key aspect that I personally (and will guess many others) LOVED about Warframe. You are rewarded by the time you put into it, contrasting with destiny's terrible loot system that left any amount of time spent there as a wasteful repetition exercise ( I apologize for bringing up another franchise), Warframe rewarded those who played it for hours on end with skyscraping stacks of resources, credits and rare mods that left the player fulfilled in the efforts put in each mission. This feeling is perpetuated by the series of event exclusive weapons and the once elusive prime weapons and Warframes that could only be found in this almost legendary space called the void, and only through the use of tower keys. These keys teleported you to a gilded space filled with amazing sights and incredibly powerful enemies, offering a challenge to new players and vets alike to gain prestige level items to show off during missions, effectively rewarding the effort put into the grind that is synonymous with Warframe.

Now however anyone with enough money can get the prime pacs or the plat needed to buy it from other players, and the grind itself is lessened, therefore Warframe is lessened, and the people who feel this impact to the greatest extent are the vets. I understand that change is needed for Warframe and the changes I mentioned above are not toxic, I do like new players can catch up to the vets and do the hardest content faster. But I do believe that giving the very best and most dedicated veterans a chance to outshine the new players with something only time and skill will let you obtain is nessesary. Arcanes are a good step forward but If I spend money for plat I could buy all the  Arcane sets I want, reducing the grind and Warframe, and Riven mods to be honest were executed incorrectly, lottery systems traditionally in other games have been side gimmicks, and to buff the weaker weapons would be easier and more effective to buff them directly.

What I propose is to create a new level of reward grinding, something that effectively upgrades the Warframes beyond the current regular state, hidden behind a challenge you can only do once and to only a single version of the frame (either regular or prime), clearly overpowering the frame in a customizable way. this means the vets and new players that manage to beat this challenge get a reward that only their skills let them obtain, and cannot be bought, this will add a new layer of mastery for vets and something beyond the primes to aim for as a new player.  

I understand this game is your vision and your work, and would not want you to compromise its integrity or yours as creators, but I really love this game and this is what I feel may drive me away from it eventually. Thank you for reading this far.

Sincerely yours

Zero_Noctis. 

[ArchPhaeton]

@OP So basically this is about a vet's ego, being unable to showoff their "hard earned" stuff?

These days showing off is all about liset primes, tennogen skins and prime accessories. The days of "showing off" hard earned gear are long gone - it happened with Prime part trading and to a lesser extent with PA packs - and then they also made Dojo research available for plat at the market. All these things effectively killed the "exclusivity" aspect of dedicating yourself to actually playing the game. I remember being disappointed big time when those changes were introduced but honestly I don't care anymore _{as apparently my low founder badge is enough to impress newbies}. The devs need to make money (which became even more perceptible after their Chinese alliance) and the game sort of took a hit from that.

I do understand things change over time, and seeing the curve we have taken (not even gonna mention them) WF will soon be quite different from the badass free to play indie utopia it was 4 years ago. I don't think the game will die, but it will definitely be something else. Many of us may move on and many others will join, that's the flow of things.

[ChuckMaverick]

All games need a 'catch-up' system, or they die as more and more new players realise they're never going to be able to match what the vets have, and quit.

Exclusivity should be reserved for cosmetic items, not anything that affects gameplay.

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

I agree. There is really no way to differentiate yourself as a vet from newbies because the game is just too easy. It really is, just get the tigris prime, loki and lesion and you are already set for every challenge that DE gives you. There is also no endgame because as I stated before: Everything is easy. And there is no reason to go 2-3 hours in a endless mission now since it is better to just go 4 waves and extract. Raids are some kind of "endgame" but they are (to me) boring and can be cheesed very easily.

The fast pace of the game is also a problem. Everyone wants to get the new shiny prime in a day or week. And when they do get it, they just go back to their old favorite frame and weapon. Modding is also boring. Just go to Hydron, put 4 forma on the thing you are maxing and put the most powerful build on it. At the end it is all worthless having 70 weapons and 40 frames maxed out.

The focus system is interesting, but everything but the passives are not worth getting since you will have to wait another 2-4 minutes to activate it again. 

This game is really special and I love it to bits. It's just that I can't work to be better, I can't go to level 200 with my weapon, I can't use a fun build without loosing on it being useless/bad. 

I am not a veteran, I barely have 1 year since registration, but I want every player to be something special. Something that we actually have to do.

Something, that will not burn me out in a week.

 

[LuckyCharm]

When i started (after i modded my gear) things were challenging. Now theyre not. This comes from many factors but the most obvious is energy and the abundance of it. We used to have to rely on energy orbs and later energy siphon. Ev was terrible and there was no zenurik and no energy pads and the only efficiency mod was streamlined. Making it impossible to spam your skills made you think and act tactically against the hoards thrown at you. Now though as was seen in the most recent event all too often was the ability to spam everything and lock down entire maps. You can bastille endlessly and ev spam. You can blessing and frost globe and every other skill without a thought. 

Another factor is the permenant invis from naramon. I use it when im lazy but it really is powerful since you cant be nullified out of it. 

There is many factors contrubuting to the ease of the game and sadly its bred people who cry at any mention of change. Meaning that de cant fix core issues without lots of outcry. Imagine it. De remove energy pads, zenurik and ev. Half the community would be at their doors with pitchforks. A quarter will just find another way to cheese things, and the rest will enjoy it. 

[ChuckMaverick]

10 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

When i started (after i modded my gear) things were challenging. Now theyre not. This comes from many factors but the most obvious is energy and the abundance of it. We used to have to rely on energy orbs and later energy siphon. Ev was terrible and there was no zenurik and no energy pads and the only efficiency mod was streamlined. Making it impossible to spam your skills made you think and act tactically against the hoards thrown at you. Now though as was seen in the most recent event all too often was the ability to spam everything and lock down entire maps. You can bastille endlessly and ev spam. You can blessing and frost globe and every other skill without a thought. 

Another factor is the permenant invis from naramon. I use it when im lazy but it really is powerful since you cant be nullified out of it. 

There is many factors contrubuting to the ease of the game and sadly its bred people who cry at any mention of change. Meaning that de cant fix core issues without lots of outcry. Imagine it. De remove energy pads, zenurik and ev. Half the community would be at their doors with pitchforks. A quarter will just find another way to cheese things, and the rest will enjoy it. 

If all frames' ability sets were as well designed as Nidus and allowed for self-contained resource management then I would agree with you, but they're not, and removing external sources of energy would reduce most frames' gameplay to running around with guns and occasionally using an ability, which would not only be less interesting but diminish the individual character of frames.

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

4 hours ago, ArchPhaeton said:

@OP So basically this is about a vet's ego, being unable to showoff their "hard earned" stuff?

These days showing off is all about liset primes, tennogen skins and prime accessories. The days of "showing off" hard earned gear are long gone - it happened with Prime part trading and to a lesser extent with PA packs - and then they also made Dojo research available for plat at the market. All these things effectively killed the "exclusivity" aspect of dedicating yourself to actually playing the game. I remember being disappointed big time when those changes were introduced but honestly I don't care anymore _{as apparently my low founder badge is enough to impress newbies}. The devs need to make money (which became even more perceptible after their Chinese alliance) and the game sort of took a hit from that.

I do understand things change over time, and seeing the curve we have taken (not even gonna mention them) WF will soon be quite different from the badass free to play indie utopia it was 4 years ago. I don't think the game will die, but it will definitely be something else. Many of us may move on and many others will join, that's the flow of things.

 

 

Sorry if it came across as an ego seeking narrative from a vet, it was not intended as so. Yes and I love the game changing into a different thing every year, evolving and becoming more complex and easier in some ways, but the feel of working hard for something great like it was before is gone and the most recent updates are mostly for newer players (wich is necessary), but as a vet I scramble to find meaningful things to farm for, all I do now is log in reward>sorty>alerts and done in more or less 2 hours. I guess what I want is a place where I have  a reason to stay 1 whole hour in a mission to reach a rewarding goal that says " hey I did this, and am able to do more because I did" 

Edited March 12, 2017 by (PS4)Zero_Noctis

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

4 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

All games need a 'catch-up' system, or they die as more and more new players realise they're never going to be able to match what the vets have, and quit.

Exclusivity should be reserved for cosmetic items, not anything that affects gameplay.

 

Yes definitely agree with you, but the main thing that gave you effort somewhat significance was getting the prime sets. this was due to a lack of a trading system wich was bliss for those who wanted 100% reward for effort put in. This was lost due in part because of trade and the easiness of getting prime sets, this is not a bad thing, I like having strong randoms and friends to play, my issue is that it was not replaced by anithing so the feeling of reward for time put into the game is gone.

[ChuckMaverick]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_Noctis said:

I guess what I want is a place where I have  a reason to stay 1 whole hour in a mission to reach a rewarding goal that says " hey I did this, and am able to do more because I did"

What you seem to be advocating, whether intentionally or not, is a shift from Warframe's current mostly horizontal progression model (where more time in game gives you more options), to a vertical progression model (where more time gives you more power).

In my opinion this would destroy one of the best aspects of Warframe, and simultaneously introduce even more need for a 'catch-up' system so that new players could hope to be able to play with vets.

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

43 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

What you seem to be advocating, whether intentionally or not, is a shift from Warframe's current mostly horizontal progression model (where more time in game gives you more options), to a vertical progression model (where more time gives you more power).

In my opinion this would destroy one of the best aspects of Warframe, and simultaneously introduce even more need for a 'catch-up' system so that new players could hope to be able to play with vets.

 

 

To answer your question, the current top builds are made from Prime Frames and Weapons with Forma and potatoes (Relic Farms); Primed mods and especially mods (By-weekly vendor+ RNGesus); 2 full  Arcane sets that complement the Frame and your playstyle ( Trials aka Raids); and Focus school of your choosing with Syndicate augment mods (overall Grind with lenses and glyphs). the "Horizontal"  model progression (ill assume you mean sequenced progression) allows you to get all the things from Relic Farms the By-Weekly Vendor (eventually) and the Syndicate Grind, after you build your gear with that you can move on to Raids and eventually finishing the Focus build you want.

All this you can buy from plat and get yourself a very strong build in both Warframes and weapons literally within 3-4 weeks of playing the game, assuming you have a demanding RL. and this allows one to enjoy the raids the sorties the story missions, I believe this is a great base for catch up, get all of this by either getting it yourself or trading, I am happy with this.

You refer to "Vertical" progression as more time equal more power, I would agree with this. before the "more power" was the prime frames, when they started getting extra stats, they used to be a cosmetic change, if on top of the " Horizontal" progression I stated above, I could get my frame an even greater modifier, be it in stats be it mod space, or even a cosmetic effect for that frame that required multiple grinding sessions of a high level mission, or even just a really long and hard quest that was only for my frame and my account to say hey peeps look at what I got for going through the "end game" content, the content I could only do by getting all the base things from the "Horizontal" progression and then was rewarded because I could do more, it's not alienating the new players, rather it's giving them a goal to attain, may be for only their favorite frames, maybe for every frame they have, but something you can only get yourself by playing the game right, not by paying for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VuYCLelIO8

The amazing feeling of how Warframe used to feel is accurately put into pictures in 100days of Warframe linked above.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by (PS4)Zero_Noctis

[ChuckMaverick]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_Noctis said:

but something you can only get yourself by playing the game right, not by paying for it.

I'm totally fine with this as long as the 'something' is along the lines of a cosmetic or otherwise visible achievement that doesn't affect gameplay.

WoW is a game where the most powerful items can only be earned in game, and can't be bought with RL or in-game currency; but WoW is a very different game to Warframe, with a very different progression model.

I think the choices that DE have made with Warframe's progression model are one of its biggest strengths.

Think of vertical vs horizontal progression like getting bigger, more powerful hammers vs having a wider variety of tools (screwdrivers, wrenches, etc.).

The fact that new players can very quickly get to a similar power level as vets, albeit in a more limited set of scenarios (due to having access to less frames and weapons), is a good thing.

Fully ranked mods are the biggest factor in player power, above both choice of frame and weapons, and aside from primed mods (which can still be acquired with plat via trading) even newish players can collect and rank those fairly quickly.

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I'm totally fine with this as long as the 'something' is along the lines of a cosmetic or otherwise visible achievement that doesn't affect gameplay.

WoW is a game where the most powerful items can only be earned in game, and can't be bought with RL or in-game currency; but WoW is a very different game to Warframe, with a very different progression model.

I think the choices that DE have made with Warframe's progression model are one of its biggest strengths.

Think of vertical vs horizontal progression like getting bigger, more powerful hammers vs having a wider variety of tools (screwdrivers, wrenches, etc.).

The fact that new players can very quickly get to a similar power level as vets, albeit in a more limited set of scenarios (due to having access to less frames and weapons), is a good thing.

Fully ranked mods are the biggest factor in player power, above both choice of frame and weapons, and aside from primed mods (which can still be acquired with plat via trading) even newish players can collect and rank those fairly quickly.

4

As I have never played WoW I can't completely see the picture you paint, but whether its cosmetic or otherwise empowering is still an irrelevant issue so long as that space remains empty, I would like a way to make frames stronger but if its cosmetic alone so be it.

what you said with mods is troubling, with the current progression what I see is Rivens for Warframes and that would really be a horrible state of affairs. Your build strengths or lack there of will be due to RNG rather than either Horizontal or Vertical progression.

[ChuckMaverick]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_Noctis said:

what you said with mods is troubling, with the current progression what I see is Rivens for Warframes and that would really be a horrible state of affairs. Your build strengths or lack there of will be due to RNG rather than either Horizontal or Vertical progression.

Warframe rivens would be very challenging to implement in a balanced way, while I'm not outright against it I would have big concerns about its implementation.

Weapon rivens on the other hand I have no problem with, except a desire to see some more transparency about how the dispositions are calculated.

If implemented well, rivens should level the playing field when it comes to power differentials between different items, which only increases the number of viable options available to players.

[KorbanGado]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero_Noctis said:

Sorry if it came across as an ego seeking narrative from a vet, it was not intended as so. Yes and I love the game changing into a different thing every year, evolving and becoming more complex and easier in some ways, but the feel of working hard for something great like it was before is gone and the most recent updates are mostly for newer players (wich is necessary), but as a vet I scramble to find meaningful things to farm for, all I do now is log in reward>sorty>alerts and done in more or less 2 hours. I guess what I want is a place where I have  a reason to stay 1 whole hour in a mission to reach a rewarding goal that says " hey I did this, and am able to do more because I did" 

You know what doesn't show any indication of how skilled or how much you know about a game? Getting lucky with RNG. As a fellow person whose played for darn near forever and has a skill level impressive to some but laughable to others, RNG is the one part of the game I really don't like. I understand it's reasoning for existing, and I agree that it's existence is necessary to entice the otherwise non-paying audience to spend a little money and support the game while making their life easier. Heck, I understand that more than the mentality of "I need to be way more awesome than everyone else."

I recall once when I burned through a stack of 20 T4 Survival keys, staying till 40 minutes on each run in an attempt to get a single part. Over and over and over, I was denied by RNGesus in near-laughable odds when you consider that 40 tries (two C rotations each match) to get that item. The kicker? The last key's 40 minute run was a 20K credit award. At that point, my luck with RNG went from laughable to downright insulting, and I rage quit the game hard that night. All RNG denotes is that someone got luckier than me. I have never once looked at another player in warframe (at least, back when I did steady PUGs) and thought "wow, that guy is super cool"/"that dude must be a Vet" for anything but the skill they displayed by playing. I've seen Excalibur Primes running around, and not had that knee-jerk reaction of "I want to be that guy someday." So by all means, maybe instead of saying "think of the vets" try instead saying "I'd rather you did this" - because as with every aspect of this game, one person can't speak for everyone.

I've also never understood people being fully decked out in mods and with their max-formad guns calling the game "too easy" and needing a harder mode. If all you wanted was a challenge, why wouldn't you be taking handicaps by doing things like using "sub-par" items, or leaving everything un-modded. It's why I'm always baffled with the constant "we need engame!" comments - back when I first got into games, the game was done at the end and replay-ability was largely just getting the High Score. If a carrot needs to be on the stick to make you move, then how can you say you enjoy the treadmill? I do admit, however, that I seem to be the crazy dude living in the attic of this community when it comes to my opinions sometimes, so heck, what do I know?

[ChuckMaverick]

7 minutes ago, KorbanGado said:

I do admit, however, that I seem to be the crazy dude living in the attic of this community when it comes to my opinions sometimes, so heck, what do I know?

You're not alone.

While rewards like getting a prime part I need or a mod I've been after are nice, they only guide my play, they're not why I play.

I play Warframe because I find the gameplay fun.

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

3 minutes ago, KorbanGado said:

You know what doesn't show any indication of how skilled or how much you know about a game? Getting lucky with RNG. As a fellow person whose played for darn near forever and has a skill level impressive to some but laughable to others, RNG is the one part of the game I really don't like. I understand it's reasoning for existing, and I agree that it's existence is necessary to entice the otherwise non-paying audience to spend a little money and support the game while making their life easier. Heck, I understand that more than the mentality of "I need to be way more awesome than everyone else."

I've also never understood people being fully decked out in mods and with their max-formad guns calling the game "too easy" and needing a harder mode. If all you wanted was a challenge, why wouldn't you be taking handicaps by doing things like using "sub-par" items, or leaving everything un-modded. It's why I'm always baffled with the constant "we need engame!" comments - back when I first got into games, the game was done at the end and replay-ability was largely just getting the High Score. If a carrot needs to be on the stick to make you move, then how can you say you enjoy the treadmill? I do admit, however, that I seem to be the crazy dude living in the attic of this community when it comes to my opinions sometimes, so heck, what do I know?

4

On the main two points you made. RNG is part of the challenge to getting the shiny things, I am not opposed to it when it comes to farming keys and such,I am however against RNG determining both when I can get my shiny new frames and weapons as well as how much stronger those things can end up becoming, for example take 2 Akstilleto primes with two rivens, (exaggeration) one of those riven is rolled 50 times and the best it gives is some damage and status, the other one on the same roll gives dmg status crit dmg and chance with punch through all positives....no amount of grind will result in the same riven rolls so thins IMO is flawed.

Using Forma and Potatoes to min max build and putting them through the grinder is also part of the game, maybe you don't do so and that is fine if that's is the fun you like to take out from the game, others love to make builds that can't be made without Forma and potatoes. At that point it becomes a question of whether the game is for weapons at base in endgame or the endgame challenges the "fully" formaed weapons and frames and whether those who relish challenges should be thrown under the bus or those who like the base level since both expectations can't be met. I think there is room for both and I don't see it for the people who like to"follow the carrot on the stick to enjoy the threadmill"

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

17 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Warframe rivens would be very challenging to implement in a balanced way, while I'm not outright against it I would have big concerns about its implementation.

Weapon rivens on the other hand I have no problem with, except a desire to see some more transparency about how the dispositions are calculated.

If implemented well, rivens should level the playing field when it comes to power differentials between different items, which only increases the number of viable options available to players.

 

I will take you back to the buff the sicarios prime got. a mastery fodder gun became actually fun to use without the use of rivens. What I really do not want to see is the RNG factor be used to determine the overall performance of gear since no 2 rivens can be alike without unrealistic effort, luck or both

[ArchPhaeton]

56 minutes ago, KorbanGado said:

-snip-
I've also never understood people being fully decked out in mods and with their max-formad guns calling the game "too easy" and needing a harder mode. If all you wanted was a challenge, why wouldn't you be taking handicaps by doing things like using "sub-par" items, or leaving everything un-modded. It's why I'm always baffled with the constant "we need engame!" comments - snip-

I am totally with you man. I am one of the few "vets" that have never felt the need of this so-called "endgame" that has been confirmed not to be the answer for "vets", or even "more content" "more missions" more this, more that, nah man, with all the stuff we have to do around I have yet to get everything done, and more often than not I just do stuff I want to, be it farm an specific mod, 7-forma odd weapons, reroll the synapse riven for the 36th time, max my Primed Disappointment, etc.

Personally I will never share this "DE should cater to the vets" claim, I play the game and do stuff in it to have a fun time accomplishing virtual goals, it's not that I need to be chained to it 24/7 or else my life will be incomplete... Specially considering the long backlog my Steam account has.

_{That said, it's about time they un-nerf solo stealth runs, vauban, and several other things.}

[Volinus7]

Eye candy : 10/10

Gameplay : 4/10

Story : 3/10

Business model : 11/10

Cumulative effort reward is good for holding players who invested too much time but also bad for motivating new players. Games with intensive straight gear race often end with horrible fate. It's I/O question. Nitain time gate is an example in this case even it's not a hard gate that severed vets from newbies but there're complaints here and there up to this day.

Uber charge a single frame to make it reflects the time invested has the same problem plus there's no balance between each frames it will not go well.

If you feel empty as a veteran, it's a good sign you realized that infinite progression bars just make the game look like over cooked noodles which absorb all the water. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Volinus7

[taiiat]

pretty much stemming back to Powercreep problems, as things often do.
yes, infinitely increasing stats influences the described problem here, as well.

things that people that can't handle facts don't get - Powercreep is a lose-lose situation. it hurts everything in a Video Game.
if you like infinitely increasing stats, cool story - just know what infinitely increasing stats does to games.

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

What you seem to be advocating, whether intentionally or not, is a shift from Warframe's current mostly horizontal progression model (where more time in game gives you more options), to a vertical progression model (where more time gives you more power).

are we even playing the same game? i think you're playing a different game from everyone else.

Warframe has almost zero Horizontal Progression. it's almost entirely Vertical.

[ChuckMaverick]

10 minutes ago, taiiat said:

are we even playing the same game? i think you're playing a different game from everyone else.

Warframe has almost zero Horizontal Progression. it's almost entirely Vertical.

Warframe is a game where with the same 'character' you can acquire and play 31 different 'classes' (frames), how is that almost zero horizontal progression?

Not to mention the hundreds of different weapons, mods, etc.

It has some vertical progression, sure, as you rank up, potato and forma your gear, but that's quickly done and has a hard limit unlike games with true vertical progression which raise the level cap with every expansion and make all previous gear redundant.

[taiiat]

11 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Warframe is a game where with the same 'character' you can acquire and play 31 different 'classes' (frames), how is that almost zero horizontal progression?

Not to mention the hundreds of different weapons, mods, etc.

It has some vertical progression, sure, as you rank up, potato and forma your gear, but that's quickly done and has a hard limit unlike games with true vertical progression which raise the level cap with every expansion and make all previous gear redundant.

Warframe does just that - Warframes replace each other in roles, Weapons at times completely defeat 90%+ of the other ones from existing...
ever increasing Stats and complete obsolescence, everything else be damned.

again, you're clearly playing an entirely different game from everyone else.

[ChuckMaverick]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Warframe does just that - Warframes replace each other in roles, Weapons at times completely defeat 90%+ of the other ones from existing...
ever increasing Stats and complete obsolescence, everything else be damned.

again, you're clearly playing an entirely different game from everyone else.

Most warframes and weapons are not objectively better than others by design (Mk1, prime/non-prime and Ak versions notwithstanding), and riven mods exist at least in part to revive the viability of weapons that are less popular in the current meta.

The fact that some weapons are seen as more powerful than others is not 'progression', it's a balancing issue.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I have seen people ask for things for veterans to do/have for a long time but it never actually had any changes. To be fair, sorties made some people login everyday and rivens gave min-maxers like me a reason to keep playing ( like a personal objetive).

Now Im working on my Aklex Prime which requires kuva, forma etc... last week was secura dual cestra... etc...

 

[LuckyCharm]

Im one of the vets calling for endgame. Really if we arent supposed to have perfect formad gear and frames then why are formas, potatos and primed mods even in the game? But then.. where are we supposed to use this stuff currently without spending a boring hour in survival for things to even start getting hard. 

I wouldnt care if the end game was just the same starmap missions with just super high levels. Where the only change is exp gain and the chance of farmable cosmetics..even if it was just say.. the illiac set recolored for infested missions