"Nerf" World On Fire by making Ember stronger

[Djego27]

Technically not, however I believe that a deeper explanation to Embers mechanics is required most of the time, given that people repeat the same old "Ember does not scale" since years.

[Almagnus1]

4 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

Is there any point in creating endless walls of text that repeat "use firedamage buff with fire damage" and "strip armor from armored units" again and again?

Not really, but Djego27 has clearly shown that they just don't get why we look at Ember and go "she's under powered", and probably never will.

9 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Not really sure what this has to do with the akstilleto or Tigris prime, given that there is hardly any reason to use a gun on Inaros anyway while weapons on Ember are usually used to add things the frame does not provide like more CC, armor ignore or healer aura ignore, non of this is needed on Inaros.

This right here shows that you don't understand that warframes can be built to be more than "just use a skill".  The answer: To give Inaros variety as an Akstiletto Prime or Tigris Prime can help carry (and kill) much faster than anything you've mentioned previously.  A well built Tigris Prime is arguably the most broken weapon in the game due to the high damage output.

You're loadout also speaks volumes that you do not understand (much less appreciate) what weapons can do, and how they can help compensate for a frame's shortcomings.

[Djego27]

Suit yourself, I would not dare to make a statement about game balance if I where you, most of the stuff is around the power level of Ember at high levels, or even a bit weaker, and considered useless by the majority of the community because of broken stuff like Inaros, akstilleto prime or Tigris pime(Soma prime is done well), that could only be easier if DE would send DE Steve to your house to help you pressing that single button during your intense Warfame experience.

On 16.4.2017 at 1:48 AM, Almagnus1 said:

This right here shows that you don't understand that warframes can be built to be more than "just use a skill".  The answer: To give Inaros variety as an Akstiletto Prime or Tigris Prime can help carry (and kill) much faster than anything you've mentioned previously.  A well built Tigris Prime is arguably the most broken weapon in the game due to the high damage output.

You're loadout also speaks volumes that you do not understand (much less appreciate) what weapons can do, and how they can help compensate for a frame's shortcomings.

Since you do not realize, a melee will out scale any gun on Inaros, you do not need guns(this also goes to all the Valkyr players in the game, use your melee instead of being last on the damage meters with guns) and ofc you build around pocket sand, given that it is one of the most overpowered abilities DE ever put on a melee frame and the reason why all the other 3 skills might as well not be there(with the exception of the armor buff on his 4, that you realistically also not need).

Heck a melee(as Embers worst weapon class because of modding issues since the event mods) will out scale guns in T3S on Ember, because it gives you another 1.2k EHP to work with and avoid one shot kill damage.

Yes my load out is bad, this is exactly why I can semi afk click myself through L100 extra armor sortis without naramon, CL, or any guns on Inaros or do the same with a frame that is called in this thread here, incapable to deal with sorti enemy levels, leave alone solo face roll through them. People would call it capable if you could do 1/12 of my damage, because then your Ember would deal around the same amount of the damage other players do that normally play sortis and that I sometimes meet if I feel like playing warfame as a co op game.

I for myself find it ironic that you pretend that you have the right to remove actual game play from other people at lower levels, even more so calling WoF a good mechanic that is worth keeping because it is in your opinion the only use for Ember after all, stating yourself that Ember is not good enught for you at high levels, criticize other people that try to explain to you that Ember does work at high levels(going further actually explaining to you how, because you and 99% of the community did not figure it out during the last couple of years and there is no such thing like a youtube video that includes that knowledge) and remove the opportunity to do anything interesting in the game from no one other then yourself by the choice of your gear and the shortcomings in game balance DE seams incapable to address or even see.

I guess it is called irony overload if you speak about drawbacks on frames while pointing out your overpowered weapons, CL dagger and naramon that you do not even need on a frame, where you could remove 75% of the EHP, 75% of the abilities, heck even 75% of the range on his first ability and that still would not have a single shortcoming that you have to compensate for. Using the puzzle reference again, DE given you 2 pieces in case of Inaros and you still fail at putting them together correctly. This is why you pretend you need all the stuff to carry and kill, that you actually have no use at all for on Inaros, since it simplifies game play to just one button, no weaknesses, no deaths, no danger. A frame made to make the game incredible simple and trivial to a point where you can hardly argue that DE still treats you as a intelligent player that should be encouraged to enjoy and check out the vast amount of different weapons, frames and gear in the game.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

2 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Suit yourself, I would not dare to make a statement about game balance if I where you, most of the stuff is around the power level of Ember at high levels, or even a bit weaker, and considered useless by the majority of the community because of broken stuff like Inaros, akstilleto prime or Tigris pime(Soma prime is done well), that could only be easier if DE would send DE Steve to your house to help you pressing that single button during your intense Warfame experience.

And this is why we should ignore you....

[Djego27]

There is a ignore button here on the Forum that you can use if you feel that my opinion bothers you to much.

To summarize:

Ember can scale and is a fairly decent choice for high level missions, just not in your opinion.

Using abilities like WoF to remove the shooting game play, as well as similar abilities that do the same at low levels, is a fairly stupid mechanic to have in a co op shooter. While it is in Warframe since years, it is literally everywhere today, while it was just on a few maps earlier in Warfames life cycle. There is no reason to hold on to it, it does not remove the appeal and power of Ember for me and I do not care if it does for 99% of the player base, given that they all reduce the frame to this single bad mechanic while posting every week about how bad Ember is once the mechanic fails to play the game for them.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

2 hours ago, Djego27 said:

There is a ignore button here on the Forum that you can use if you feel that my opinion bothers you to much.

To summarize:

Ember can scale and is a fairly decent choice for high level missions, just not in your opinion.

Using abilities like WoF to remove the shooting game play, as well as similar abilities that do the same at low levels, is a fairly stupid mechanic to have in a co op shooter. While it is in Warframe since years, it is literally everywhere today, while it was just on a few maps earlier in Warfames life cycle. There is no reason to hold on to it, it does not remove the appeal and power of Ember for me and I do not care if it does for 99% of the player base, given that they all reduce the frame to this single bad mechanic while posting every week about how bad Ember is once the mechanic fails to play the game for them.

No.

Ember needs a complete rework, because any reasonable person (ie: not you), will look at World on Fire, see what it does in high level content, realize it's completely useless without the Firequake augment, and then proceed to either choose a frame that doesn't suck in high level content, or build around the augment.

While the rest of the kit has utility in the star chart, it's largely garbage in high level content.

Ember doesn't need a nerf, but you DO need to learn to play warframe - including learning that using the best in class weapon isn't looking for an easy button, but it's all about optimizing yourself for the highest DPS output possible while being as survivable as possible, without slowing down your group.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Almagnus1

[Djego27]

What Ember needs are people that actually learn how to play the frame instead of suggesting a full rework while knowing next to nothing about how it is played at higher levels where WoF does not play the game for you. The reason that you would put Firequake on the frame just shows that(what is a very bad mod, since it gimps the damage of any weapon used for head shots into oblivion, what is in return one of Embers main ways to scale up weapon based fire damage). Ember does not suck in high level content, the frame performs perfectly fine for anybody that plays it decently and is very effective when it comes to damage(because it can hit like a metric truck with crit/head shot weapons and turn low damage status weapons into stuff that can contest some of the most overpowered weapons in the game for killspeed, since status modding comes at no damage cost on the frame) and CC.

Solo T3 corpus mobile defence, apparently Ember does not need a snow globe, a team to hold her hand and can deal with high level enemy units just fine outside of levels where WoF does all the killing for you.

Same mission in a pug, just to give you a basic idea how much punch a status rifle that does actually fairly low damage got on Ember. Keep in mind this does include overkill damage like on the mesa with 19% since Ember does not have such a thing with status weapons, you just disable the defences with status and after this 1-2 shot it with heat what means you do not do 4 million damage against a 4M EHP target, you only deal like 100k(the first 50k disable the armor while doing little to no damage to the target, the second 50k remove the HP). The difference of my weapon compared to the weapons of the people I did revive a couple of times is that it does hard CC on the first hit, every hit, everything in front of you just shake your mouse a bit, nullify armor or shields and punches on Ember with the help of flash accelerant(because you only got room for one dual status fire mod on it) thrught L100 enemies like butter.

The grakata got fully status and crit modded around 155 damage, 33 of that in heat. This number with flash accelerant and 4.4x accelerant damage multiplication turns into 413 heat damage before crit and head shots(8.8k heat damage every second as base damage on a crit rifle that only does 10 damage at base, around 13 times more then any frame without damage scaling abilities would get out the same build). You nearly did tipple the base damage of the weapon what is stronger then what is Saryn or Nova offers(where it is just 2 times the damage) but there is more, given that the drawback of low damage on status weapons that allow you to disable shields and armor is non existent for you, running status weapons comes without the drawback that any other frame got with them and even can be used to in very interesting ways, where Ember actually becomes kind of overpowered as a status frame. Since you do not scale all damage types, just heat it removes nearly all drawbacks from status weapon use what means a radiation, viral and heat weapon is just broken powerful vs Infested since it disables auras, doubles heat damage and hits like a BFG, while it is completely useless on other frames. All this while heat scales very good against the remaining HP after shields, armor or auras compared to other damage types and does very consistent CC on this kind of status weapons.

Also I might be a good player, just hit up sortis solo with your ember and see for yourself how far your knowledge about status, Ember, enemy types, weapon choice and your player skill really goes, because it actually takes quite a bit of that on Ember once WoF turns into a CC skill. Your statement that Embers WoF needs more damage(while it is already one of the hardest hitting 4 in the game, scoring at 18k damage with just 200% power strength) and is useless at higher levels just illustrates how much you desire a easy mode button.

Edit: It is really a irony that one of the frames that benefits the most out of proper weapon modding and gun play is mainly the choice for people that are to lazy to use her weapons, what should change instead of just over buffing Ember by the demand of people that hardly understand what her frame is actually capable of if you utilize it's strengths properly.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Djego27

[main_antagonist]

Have a read of my topics and have a look over my ember buff I suggested

[Almagnus1]

Quote

Also I might be a good player, just hit up sortis solo with your ember and see for yourself how far your knowledge about status, Ember, enemy types, weapon choice and your player skill really goes, because it actually takes quite a bit of that on Ember once WoF turns into a CC skill.

What's the point of bringing Ember when there are far, far better tools for the sorties available that make doing them solo cake?

So others know what we're referring to, today's sorties are spy (augmented enemy armor), rescue (enemy elemental enhancement), and defense (radiation hazard) in that order, all against the infested.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Almagnus1

[Grilleds]

14 hours ago, Djego27 said:

There is a ignore button here on the Forum that you can use if you feel that my opinion bothers you to much.

To summarize:

Ember can scale and is a fairly decent choice for high level missions, just not in your opinion.

Using abilities like WoF to remove the shooting game play, as well as similar abilities that do the same at low levels, is a fairly stupid mechanic to have in a co op shooter. While it is in Warframe since years, it is literally everywhere today, while it was just on a few maps earlier in Warfames life cycle. There is no reason to hold on to it, it does not remove the appeal and power of Ember for me and I do not care if it does for 99% of the player base, given that they all reduce the frame to this single bad mechanic while posting every week about how bad Ember is once the mechanic fails to play the game for them.

Actually Ember's ultimate is one of the few that doesn't remove the shooting gamplay from the game. It doesn't kill everything around her and she can still move around and shoot enemies after activating it. Promoting a run and gun playstyle. You need to be fighting very low level enemies for her WoF to do most of the work and even then it's a rather slow process compared to many other mob clearing methods.

Compare M-Prime, which requires Nova to shoot one shot afterwards to remove an entire room full of enemies, or Miasma, which let's Saryn destroy everything nearby her in one quick cast. WoF by comparison is much more interactive. You press a button and basically give yourself a passive damage aura while you go back to playing the game as normal.

The problem isn't this ability. This ability isn't even that good. The problem is that the rest of her kit is so awful, that people end up relying solely on this ability. I like Ember, I really do, but she's a 1 button frame. Her flame donut's are terrible, because enemies somehow know to avoid them and they don't even do much damage. Her Fireballs are terrible because of travel time and lacking additional mechanics to make them somewhat OK like Freeze or other 25 energy skills. Accelerant literally requires you to gear out specifically to make use of it, and it's still not one of the game's better steroids even if you do. Even if we buff all those 3 abilities, or replace them with something else, we don't really need to nerf WoF, as it's not one of the better ultimates. Nobody is ever going to say "Wow, our team is great, but we really should have an Ember on it."

Edited April 16, 2017 by Grilleds

[Djego27]

On 16.4.2017 at 11:57 PM, Almagnus1 said:

What's the point of bringing Ember when there are far, far better tools for the sorties available that make doing them solo cake?

So others know what we're referring to, today's sorties are spy (augmented enemy armor), rescue (enemy elemental enhancement), and defense (radiation hazard) in that order, all against the infested.

The frame is very strong in sortis, because Ember is a very strong CC and damage frame, it is just that it is not played like this by the majority of the community. Since it is very trivial today, it should be no issue for you.

On 17.4.2017 at 0:30 AM, Grilleds said:

Actually Ember's ultimate is one of the few that doesn't remove the shooting gamplay from the game. It doesn't kill everything around her and she can still move around and shoot enemies after activating it. Promoting a run and gun playstyle. You need to be fighting very low level enemies for her WoF to do most of the work and even then it's a rather slow process compared to many other mob clearing methods.

Compare M-Prime, which requires Nova to shoot one shot afterwards to remove an entire room full of enemies, or Miasma, which let's Saryn destroy everything nearby her in one quick cast. WoF by comparison is much more interactive. You press a button and basically give yourself a passive damage aura while you go back to playing the game as normal.

The problem isn't this ability. This ability isn't even that good. The problem is that the rest of her kit is so awful, that people end up relying solely on this ability. I like Ember, I really do, but she's a 1 button frame. Her flame donut's are terrible, because enemies somehow know to avoid them and they don't even do much damage. Her Fireballs are terrible because of travel time and lacking additional mechanics to make them somewhat OK like Freeze or other 25 energy skills. Accelerant literally requires you to gear out specifically to make use of it, and it's still not one of the game's better steroids even if you do. Even if we buff all those 3 abilities, or replace them with something else, we don't really need to nerf WoF, as it's not one of the better ultimates. Nobody is ever going to say "Wow, our team is great, but we really should have an Ember on it."

You can kill anything on the star map without firing a single shot outside of bosses and WoF scales fairly well up to L70 ish. The problem that people point out, being unable to use her weapons on the star chart is fairly accurate as soon as you have 1-2 frames like this in the group. 

Fire ball does more or less the same as on other frames, volt is not terrible because of shock(shock is good), mag is not terrible because of pull(even if it loses most of the value at high levels, given that you do not want to pull L100+ stuff in range). Given the AOE it is easy to use for disabling cameras or grenier door traps, to quick CC a L100 tech in front of you during a reload or to remove snapping ospray orbs from the floor.

Accelerant is one of the bests stuns in the game, DE added LoS to radial blind while accelerant does not have it while doing the same(very big area of effect instant stun for a few seconds, minus the long blind afterwards). Further more it is also a very strong team based damage buff, increasing team damage more then the mprime or the AOE viral proc of saryn, it is just not perceived as this since it does nothing on weapons or abilities that are not build around pure fire damage. It also scales better the other damage buffing abilities on status weapons, what means that using the 60% dual status mod for building corrosive on your weapon does not necessary reduce your damage over a 90% mod, since you only really scale over the heat damage that you add on the weapon. This in return allows Ember to use lower damage status weapons, that provide a high amount of CC to a similar or greater effect like other people use top tier damage/crit weapons.

Fire blast needs the hole ring on fire to be a substantial way to slow targets down. While that is fairly niche, it is also something what I miss on my Frost since the 4 globe limit the most, where you could just snow globe spawn points and do excavations at high levels with rarely shooting a gun, since enemy units are just in soft CC, somewhere outside of LoS where they can not shoot the team or the defence target.

WoF, even if it does not contribute much to Embers total damage output at high levels is still a very solid CC ability, especially combined with a good status weapon what can create a very strong AOE lock down around Ember, the reason why the frame does defence type missions so easy on it's own is just that.

So Ember has like nearly every frame in the game 1 ability that is not that useful. The issue in my eyes is more so that all this features that the frame got are very depend on gear, specific weapons and mods to really shine, much more so then on other frames while it is not even obvious how to archive that. The result of that is that people have the perception of her 4 being the only useful thing and once that starts to not do the main thing what is expected from a damage frame(damage) by enemy HP and defence(aura, armor, shields) scaling it is considered useless, even if like you pointed out correctly WoF does only trivial damage compared to what you can do with other things on Ember.

While Ember naturally leads itself well to weapons and scales incredible good with some of them(the number of them is actually not that big in the hole game and most of them I only really did get and forma for the use on Ember), this effect is only present if you properly build Ember around high power strength, use accelrant a lot and mod your weapon around that one ability. Take the boar prime for example. It is vaulted, it actually does not work like it is out of the box on Ember since the changes to shotguns nearly two years ago because it only has 30% instead of 40% base status(looks like a minor detail but is a massive deal breaker on Ember), needs a lot of missions to get the shotgun dual status mods(that are only useful on 2 shotguns in the hole game), 6 forma and a riven that adds at least 60% status so you can use it corrosive\fire modded where it becomes a fairly good weapon on Ember, compared to using it with corrosive\blast where it is just a massive waste of time on all frames, not just on Ember. Even after all that it is realistically not even better then a vaykor hek what is much easier to obtain and to mod for kill speed in L100 grenier sortis(it slightly pulls ahead in extra armor ones on Ember or if you go into the L150 ish range) while having a effective 5m range because of the high spread and being incredible ammo ineffective while also not being able to use ammo mutation since you need all the mods on it to just make it work as it is. The main difference is however that it provides the strong AOE lock down with fire procs what is not present on the vhek that you need on Ember to avoid getting hit, while it would be just a trivial detail on frames like Frost or others where my vhek is for the most part just the much more convenient weapon to use.

If people complain that Ember does not scale, would need much more HP to survive at high levels, does no damage with weapons and use mods like fire quake what further reduce her damage while there are much better CC options on Ember they did just fall into the trap that Ember is for new players. Because outside of the WoF AOE kill potential at lower levels, it is a frame that scales more then others on very specific gear and modding what takes a very high amount of time to gather for a newer player, that even if they would realize what you can do with Ember will just move on to other things before finishing that grind and calling Ember bad(because it actually is in her hands), even if Ember is actually compared to other damage frames surprisingly reasonable balanced and quite strong outside of the gimmick that WoF can finish the mission for you at lower levels without requiring you to point weapons at stuff and press the left mouse button.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

The frame is very strong in sortis, because Ember is a very strong CC and damage frame, it is just that it is not played like this by the majority of the community. Since it is very trivial today, it should be no issue for you.

Actually, yes.  Loki Prime and Inaros handled all three missions without much issue at all.  What I find absolutely hilarious, though, is how you went on for pages about how good Boar Prime was, yet when you really needed damage you went with a meta call for one of the best shotguns in the game - despite how much flack you've given me over the Soma Prime and Akstiletto Prime.

Hypocrite.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

Fire ball does more or less the same as on other frames, volt is not terrible because of shock(shock is good), mag is not terrible because of pull(even if it loses most of the value at high levels, given that you do not want to pull L100+ stuff in range). Given the AOE it is easy to use for disabling cameras or grenier door traps, to quick CC a L100 tech in front of you during a reload or to remove snapping ospray orbs from the floor.

Accelerant is one of the bests stuns in the game, DE added LoS to radial blind while accelerant does not have it while doing the same(very big area of effect instant stun for a few seconds, minus the long blind afterwards). Further more it is also a very strong team based damage buff, increasing team damage more then the mprime or the AOE viral proc of saryn, it is just not perceived as this since it does nothing on weapons or abilities that are not build around pure fire damage. It also scales better the other damage buffing abilities on status weapons, what means that using the 60% dual status mod for building corrosive on your weapon does not necessary reduce your damage over a 90% mod, since you only really scale over the heat damage that you add on the weapon. This in return allows Ember to use lower damage status weapons, that provide a high amount of CC to a similar or greater effect like other people use top tier damage/crit weapons.

Fire blast needs the hole ring on fire to be a substantial way to slow targets down. While that is fairly niche, it is also something what I miss on my Frost since the 4 globe limit the most, where you could just snow globe spawn points and do excavations at high levels with rarely shooting a gun, since enemy units are just in soft CC, somewhere outside of LoS where they can not shoot the team or the defence target.

WoF, even if it does not contribute much to Embers total damage output at high levels is still a very solid CC ability, especially combined with a good status weapon what can create a very strong AOE lock down around Ember, the reason why the frame does defence type missions so easy on it's own is just that.

So this "awesome DPS frame" is really just a CC frame because you're using Firequake and accelerant to stun things, and you're leaning on your shotgun to do the damage because Vaykor Hek basically deletes what it's aimed at?

/facepalm

[Djego27]

On 17.4.2017 at 9:49 AM, Almagnus1 said:

Actually, yes.  Loki Prime and Inaros handled all three missions without much issue at all.  What I find absolutely hilarious, though, is how you went on for pages about how good Boar Prime was, yet when you really needed damage you went with a meta call for one of the best shotguns in the game - despite how much flack you've given me over the Soma Prime and Akstiletto Prime.

Hypocrite.

Corrosive procs do nothing vs infested, strong AOE CC is not required if you do not get shot and everything dies in a single shot anyway. Nobody uses a boar prime against infested because the main feature of the weapon(corrosive proc stacking against armor) is not useful against the faction and outside of that it is just a shotgun with a super high spread, low damage and very ammo inefficient to boot. However the boar prime is a much better balanced weapon compared to our top end shotguns(assuming it would have 40% status at base what it does not got currently), since it is situational, has a lot of flaws to it and low damage, while still being very useful for specific tasks at high levels, different to the vaykor Hek(or all top tier shotguns for that matter) that are just universal better for any content then you could play up to sortis then other shotguns and honestly most other weapon in the game as well.

On 17.4.2017 at 9:49 AM, Almagnus1 said:

So this "awesome DPS frame" is really just a CC frame because you're using Firequake and accelerant to stun things, and you're leaning on your shotgun to do the damage because Vaykor Hek basically deletes what it's aimed at?

/facepalm

I never use Fire quake since it the worst thing you can do to your own and your teams dps as Ember player.

If you think the Vaykor Hek deletes things, you have no idea how it deletes things on Ember, because you are looking into 300k+ dps easy mode that one shots things well beyond sorti levels on Ember.

The reason why you hardly need a boar prime outside of CC even for extra armor L100 sortis on Ember is because the frame actually has a very strong damage buff. Vaykor Hek is the highest scaling damage shotgun on Ember, because fire damage is fully affected by crit and head shot multipliers, what in return means waves 60 solo into ODD is just simple point and click for Ember while you hardly feel a resistance on enemy units even if you are already kill millions of EHP every single wave.

Also despite to your massive surprise, I actually use my top tier weapons(boar prime and prisma grakata are top tier weapons on Ember, just without being broken powerful). At least the ones that are interesting for me as Ember player since obvious my goal as player of a damage frame is to do very high damage. I do however not agree that the top tier damage shotguns should be as powerful as they are, since this makes other shotguns and other weapon classes like rifles fairly bad in comparison as well as having issues with stuff like akstilleto prime that  is already unreasonable powerful compared to other options as status or crit weapon, not both at the same time what is plain stupid.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

17 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Also despite to your massive surprise that I actually use my top tier weapons(boar prime and prisma grakata are top tier weapons on Ember, just without being broken powerful) that are interesting for me as Ember player since obvious my goal as player of a damage frame is to do very high damage. I do however not agree that the top tier damage shotguns should be as powerful as they are, since this makes other shotguns and weapon fairly bad in comparison as well as having issues with stuff like akstilleto prime that  is already unreasonable powerful compared to other options as status or crit weapon, not both at the same time what is plain stupid.

Or maybe the problem is you've been using bad frames and weapons for so long that you're perception of "fair" has been dropped into the dirt, so anything that's actually strong is OP to you.

IMO, the problem with this thread is you have an unrealistically low expectation for how things should work, and that's why you're asking for nerfs on a frame that doesn't need it.

[Djego27]

It is more likely that I have just a better understanding of the mechanics of the game and what the word balance means.

This is the reason why I as literally only person her one the forums point out that the 30% status boar prime and 5s reload speed strun wraith are utterly bad balanced to complete in content like sortis since they even at L100 extra armor grenier still get beaten by just throwing a couple of damage mods on the top tier shotguns in her niche in regards of kill speed(it is a bit more balanced on Ember, again because status weapons scale well with accelerant), where they are compared to weapons like rifles already very powerful in that specific niche. You on the other hand are the kind of person that would just point out that the status shotguns need more damage and crit(all the threads about them where full of this people) because they are just bad compared to top tier shotguns even properly modded and in her niche. DE would go on and buff the damage and the next thing we see is that they are universal better then rifles and people demand a rifle buff. Hey wait the rifles are so strong, I think I need a buff on my Bow as well!!!

What this leads to is a endless cycle of making the game more trivial leading to players getting bored by the lack of challenge and demanding more challenging content, forcing DE to throw more broken mechanics like Nullifiers into the game, while it is much simpler just to nerf the Tigris shotguns by 20% and the Heks by 15% of her damage, at what point they still would be incredible powerful as damage weapons. Assuming you buffed status shotguns to be feasible again, people would now have reasons to farm for the status mods and weapons because they are better in L100 extra armor sortis and also happy rifle users that do not feel having the short end of the stick when they look at the damage numbers other players can pull off with Tigris or vhek.

Balance means choice and options and is beneficial for a game that likes to present you with a lot of options, however very little real choice since most of that options are always worse then others. However fear not that is not the case on Ember vs other damage frames, that is actually fairly well balanced, it is just a bit more complex on Ember and to much based on gear.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

It is more likely that I have just a better understanding of the mechanics of the game and what the word balance means.

That's a good joke, please tell me another =D

Quote

This is the reason why I as literally only person her one the forums point out...

If you're the only person, the problem is you, not whatever you're QQing about.

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You on the other hand are the kind of person that would just point out that the status shotguns need more damage and crit(all the threads about them where full of this people) because they are just bad compared to top tier shotguns even properly modded and in her niche.

If you mean the kind of person that likes not gimping themselves so I don't have to write pages on a forum about why I'm awesome in a subpar frame, then sure I'll give you that.

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I think I need a buff on my Bow as well!!!

Bows need a rework because the draw time is (in general) too long and it makes it next to impossible to play a Daikyu in a group.  Bows may also need a damage buff so they're somewhat comparable to snipers (which is what they should be balanced against, NOT rifles), but that's a subject for a different thread...

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What this leads to is a endless cycle of making the game more trivial leading to players getting bored by the lack of challenge and demanding more challenging content, forcing DE to throw more broken mechanics like Nullifiers into the game

Full auto weapons make these a non-issue.  Please git gud and stop QQing.

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while it is much simpler just to nerf the Tigris shotguns by 20%

Tigris Prime is actually fine because it has a MR 13 requirement, Sancti Tigris and Vaykor Hek have a MR 12 requirement.  Higher MR requirement should yield a better weapon, which is why the Stradavar is such a frustrating weapon because it should be much stronger than it is because of it's higher MR requirement than most other rifles in the game.

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and the Heks by 15% of her damage, at what point they still would be incredible powerful as damage weapons.

Please see http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_Comparison/Primaries/Shotgun and sort the table by MR.  Vaykor Hek is MR 12 (2nd highest MR of all shotguns), while Hek is at 4 which is 4th highest of all shotguns.

Hek is also a weapon that's easy to get (from the market), and it's possible to sink forma into one of the few early weapons that can be built into something really good.

Here's 3 progressive builds for the Hek that will take it's DPS from kinda meh, to not bad, while also laying necessary groundwork to move into the Vaykor Hek...

Beginner (75.6k burst/25.8k sustained): http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Hek/t_30_22200300_165-3-3-167-6-3-170-5-5-175-4-5-178-1-5-180-0-5-186-2-5-792-7-3_180-5-178-8-186-5-165-9-175-11-170-6-167-9-792-5/en/2-0-31/

With Syndicate Mod (100.0k burst/40.4k sustained): http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Hek/t_30_22200300_167-6-3-170-5-5-175-4-5-178-1-5-180-0-5-186-2-5-365-3-3-792-7-3_180-5-178-8-186-5-365-7-175-11-170-6-167-9-792-5/en/2-0-31/

With Syndicate + Primed Point Blank (130.0k burst/52.6k sustained): http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Hek/t_30_22200300_167-6-3-170-5-5-175-4-5-178-1-5-186-2-5-365-3-3-482-0-10-792-7-3_482-7-178-8-186-5-365-7-175-11-170-6-167-9-792-5/en/2-0-31/

That seems like it's actually fairly balanced as the Hek is getting stronger as you start using more exotic mods.

Now let's compare this with the Vaykor Hek with only Primed Point Blank (149.1k burst/58.7k sustained): http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Vaykor_Hek/t_30_22220000_165-4-3-167-7-3-168-2-5-178-3-5-181-1-5-186-5-5-482-0-10-792-6-3_482-7-181-5-168-5-178-8-165-9-186-9-792-5-167-9/en/2-0-81

Now with Primed Point Blank and Primed Ravage (183.8k burst/72.3k sustained): http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Vaykor_Hek/t_30_22220000_165-4-3-167-7-3-168-2-5-178-3-5-186-5-5-480-1-10-482-0-10-792-6-3_482-7-480-7-168-5-178-8-165-9-186-9-792-5-167-9/en/2-0-81

While you can drive the DPS even higher on the Vaykor Hek (over 200k burst) with the Acolyte mods, again, you're using some fairly hard to come by mods combined with two max rank primed mods, so the expectation is that you should have an immensely powerful weapon.

The interesting thing, however, is that if you take all of the mods from the beginner Hek build, and max those, a good chunk of those mods gets used for the Vaykor Hek build, which helps gives the player a sense of progression and makes the transition much easier.  I also find it very interesting that the Vaykor Hek isn't that much of an upgrade over a tricked out Hek unless you have both primed mods for it.

Again, all of this seems very balanced to me.

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Assuming you buffed status shotguns to be feasible again, people would now have reasons to farm for the status mods and weapons because they are better in L100 extra armor sortis and also happy rifle users that do not feel having the short end of the stick when they look at the damage numbers other players can pull off with Tigris or vhek.

And that's why we need a deterministic (NOT RANDOM) Riven system, but that's a subject for another thread....

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Balance means choice and options and is beneficial for a game that likes to present you with a lot of options, however very little real choice since most of that options are always worse then others. However fear not that is not the case on Ember vs other damage frames, that is actually fairly well balanced, it is just a bit more complex on Ember and to much based on gear.

Caster frost is a force of destruction, caster Ember is a complete joke because her kit's garbage.  Volt has a good utility kit, Ember's utility kit is a bad joke.  Saryn is based on toxin which bypasses armor, while Ember's fire damage gets mitigated.

And then there's the exalted weapon frames, which make Ember look like a Solar Rail mook you mow down to move to the next planet.

Need I go on?

You're just trying to polish a turd that needs a rework, while crusading to have the only redeeming skill on Ember nerfed.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Almagnus1

[Djego27]

You are a lost case.

Bows do not need a rework they are fine as a weapon class and I use them fairly often. The problem with the Diaku is just that a status weapon with a insane low proc per second rate does not make any sense, be it a bow or any other weapon class for that matter.

Your shotgun modding is just as terrible as the one of the number jockeys with the akbronko prime, nobody mods like that, because it is plain ineffective, both at low levels(where you do not need it) as well as at high levels, where it costs just more ammo restores for no benefit.

Edit: The main difference of the Hek vs vhek is single damage type scaling, what makes the later noticeable more powerful at levels far above sorti, on specific frames like Ember and ironically also the best anti corpus shotgun as puncture based weapon.

Btw what makes nullifiers so broken is the one shot damage, that actually kills you in a single shot at higher levels while the unit and everything around it is immune to CC for at least 2 seconds till the bubble collapse no matter how quick you can shoot it down, what becomes very noticeable if you would ever happen to play high level corpus/void solo with frames like Mag or Ember.

You do not need to go on. What you should do is to actually play with the things you have no idea off for a few hundred hours solo at L100+ to get a bit more understanding of the game you think you need to balance(yes because buffs are also balance).

This is from last year, where somebody was claiming that Saryn is a super good melee frame because of her 3, while I was pointing out that it is hardly better then Ember at it. In the end the only real advantage is that you can not use corrosive on the weapon on Ember, what you now can with flash accelerant since the damage output is fairly comparable. Turns out that person that demanding massive EHP buffs for Saryn had not the slightest clue about real melee game play, how to even mod a frame for melee runs and was entirely depended his Naramon cheese and stealth proc damage multiplication that DE should fix because it is also just stupid overpowered for no reason.

This is why it is for the most part pointless to discuss game balance with somebody like you or you making suggestions. Because you lack the experience to judge things fairly. I like and play a lot with Ember because I know the frame and what it can do, doing sortis with it solo is not a challenge for me because it is just as good if not better at it like other options to me, you complain and suggest buffs to something that you can't even play competitively to other alternative frames by your lack of knowledge about it, leave alone understand inside out and able to rate it fairly against other options.

If you think Ember is very weak at high levels to die in a single hit, mag, saryn even frost(since you do not use defensive mods on the frame at high levels) and a metric ton of other frames sharing that with her. If you think the damage is low, so it would be on Saryn if you do not use spore and just spam miasma, so it is on Nova if you just use mprime without antimatter drop, so it is on mag if you do not have specific weapons for magnetize, so it is on vauban if you not bring a weapon like a mara detron to proc radiation on your L200 healer in your vortex that makes everything else in it nearly unmanageable even with top of the line guns. Ember in the end is not that different to other frames.

The only difference is that there is no real guide to how to actually play it effective, you have to find that out for yourself, because it is a not a often played frame outside of WoF spam at lower levels that got a bad reputation for being terrible at high levels mostly delivered by people that do not know how to play the frame. A year ago you might just be as successful for requesting guidance on Ember as you are now, where the frame was nowhere while it is now everywhere and still even with that very big Ember player base the chance of somebody that can answer your questions correctly is probably not better then a year ago because people do not tend to advance into Ember game play, they are just here to press 4 and will leave as soon as it is tuned down to reasonable levels again or a better option arrives(that is already in the game with Equinox). Input from people such as myself that actually play Ember as main at higher levels, mostly solo I might add, is just ignored, if you think I am mad at this, I am not. I am just here, I am honest and I like warframe to offer a challenge to me both in player skill as well as on my intellectual capability, while most people just want this replaced with standing in a spot, preferable having a channelling ability that they do not have to press again more often then every 5 minutes and pretend they still actually like to "play" that because I am 100% sure they don't, they just do that because the level of grind is otherwise not manageable to them, as it is for basically every person that actually works for a living and plays Warfame as a hobby. You just buy plat instead of wasting 40 hours of her life in the old T3S because of DEs drop table design to get the last Saryn prime part(yes I did 40 hours of T3S, mostly solo, to get my saryn prime part).

Edited April 17, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

11 hours ago, Djego27 said:

You are a lost case.

The feeling's mutual.

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Bows do not need a rework they are fine as a weapon class and I use them fairly often. The problem with the Diaku is just that a status weapon with a insane low proc per second rate does not make any sense, be it a bow or any other weapon class for that matter.

No, the problem is that it's a 45% Status bow with damage based on puncture that cannot be fired until fully charged, making it an exceedingly slow bow - when compared to the Rakta Cernos and Cernos Prime.

Then there's the Dread, which shows why Slash procs are good... assuming it doesn't kill on the first shot due to it's nuts crit chance.

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Your shotgun modding is just as terrible as the one of the number jockeys with the akbronko prime, nobody mods like that, because it is plain ineffective, both at low levels(where you do not need it) as well as at high levels, where it costs just more ammo restores for no benefit.

Experience has shown those builds work just fine for me.

Do you want to take this one back?

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Btw what makes nullifiers so broken is the one shot damage, that actually kills you in a single shot at higher levels while the unit and everything around it is immune to CC for at least 2 seconds till the bubble collapse no matter how quick you can shoot it down, what becomes very noticeable if you would ever happen to play high level corpus/void solo with frames like Mag or Ember.

Inaros actually deals with them really easily as I can run through the bubble and shoot them in the face, assuming I haven't already dealt with them at range with either the Soma Prime or Akstiletto Prime that is.

I cannot do this on Ember because Ember is not nearly as tanky as Inaros, and Ember doesn't have abilities (like Inaro's 2 and 4) that function really well when you don't mod them.  While it's true that the 1 and 3 need some mods, I've found the abilities are effective enough with Stretch, Primed Continuity, and Rage - with the 3 only really being useful in group play because I'm not modding it for damage - which means the 1 works with a Covert Lethality dagger to drop just about any target when I have something that'd just take too long with weapons, while 2 heals me when I need the health, and 4 greatly ups my EHP to stupid levels when I'm fighting the Grineer and Infested.

That means the rest of my mods are dedicated to making Inaros tanky, and trivializing the status and knockdown effects.  I'm generally the one that's running around and reviving everyone else because it takes soo much damage to drop me, especially when you have something like Sanctuary or Shelter maxed out on your companion to give you shields when you revive.

This is my loadout on Inaros: http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Inaros/t_30_4443000033_2-0-10-4-6-5-13-3-3-19-1-10-27-9-3-34-8-5-59-5-3-418-2-5-479-7-10-544-4-5_2-6-19-7-418-6-13-7-544-11-59-9-4-9-479-14-34-14-27-5_0/en/1-0-45

Also, here is my dagger: http://warframe-builder.com/Melee_Weapons/Builder/Karyst/t_30_322000002_238-5-3-240-6-3-241-0-5-245-7-5-251-4-5-298-8-3-557-2-3-729-3-10-733-1-10_241-6-733-7-557-7-729-14-251-11-238-7-240-7-245-11-298-10/en/4-0-61

I'll swap out Primed Continuity for Antitoxin or Diamond Skin depending on the sortie.

This is because (IMO) Inaros is a superior warframe to Ember for surviving high level content.

So yeah... do you really want to discuss this one further?

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This is why it is for the most part pointless to discuss game balance with somebody like you or you making suggestions. Because you lack the experience to judge things fairly. I like and play a lot with Ember because I know the frame and what it can do, doing sortis with it solo is not a challenge for me because it is just as good if not better at it like other options to me, you complain and suggest buffs to something that you can't even play competitively to other alternative frames by your lack of knowledge about it, leave alone understand inside out and able to rate it fairly against other options.

In other words, you're the only one that knows this game well enough, and the rest of us plebs on the forums should just bow to your knowledge.

I'll start taking what you say seriously when you actually start documenting what builds your using, until then, you're just stroking an ePeen that really needs a date with the business end of a Nikana Prime.

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The only difference is that there is no real guide to how to actually play it effective, you have to find that out for yourself, because it is a not a often played frame outside of WoF spam at lower levels that got a bad reputation for being terrible at high levels mostly delivered by people that do not know how to play the frame. A year ago you might just be as successful for requesting guidance on Ember as you are now, where the frame was nowhere while it is now everywhere and still even with that very big Ember player base the chance of somebody that can answer your questions correctly is probably not better then a year ago because people do not tend to advance into Ember game play, they are just here to press 4 and will leave as soon as it is tuned down to reasonable levels again or a better option arrives(that is already in the game with Equinox). Input from people such as myself that actually play Ember as main at higher levels, mostly solo I might add, is just ignored, if you think I am mad at this, I am not. I am just here, I am honest and I like warframe to offer a challenge to me both in player skill as well as on my intellectual capability, while most people just want this replaced with standing in a spot, preferable having a channelling ability that they do not have to press again more often then every 5 minutes and pretend they still actually like to "play" that because I am 100% sure they don't, they just do that because the level of grind is otherwise not manageable to them, as it is for basically every person that actually works for a living and plays Warfame as a hobby.

People don't write guides on how to survive on subpar frames because there are other frames that will do everything Ember can do, and do it better.

When are you going to stop being delusional about Ember's capabilities and accept this truth?

Edited April 17, 2017 by Almagnus1

[Justice_Ember]

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

This is because (IMO) Inaros is a superior warframe to Ember for surviving high level content.

Alright, I was staying out of this hoping for an actual reason for superiority other than "my inaros is tanky so he is better". 

Ember is certainly a complex and hard to understand frame but thinking she is less fit for survival than inaros is plain ignorant, I'll also quit here because there's only negativity in my mind right now and nothing constructive will come of it.

[Almagnus1]

37 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

Alright, I was staying out of this hoping for an actual reason for superiority other than "my inaros is tanky so he is better". 

Ember is certainly a complex and hard to understand frame but thinking she is less fit for survival than inaros is plain ignorant, I'll also quit here because there's only negativity in my mind right now and nothing constructive will come of it.

Inaros can heal himself while completely invulnerable (with his 2), Ember has no such ability.

Inaros can stun things in front of himself with his 1, which can allow a covert lethality dagger to one-shot almost anything in the game.  While Ember can do this with her 2 (and potentially with Firequake), Inaros is built to best utilize Rage - unlike Ember because Ember has shields.

With the above Inaros build, I have to be reliant upon weapons for Inaros to do damage, most of the good weapons are solid enough that they can kill things while Inaros will mitigate the incoming damage.  While Ember has access to the same weapons, Ember is completely reliant upon mods for her survivability, or reliant upon having power to keep her going.  Yes, Quick Thinking + Rage is kinda funny, but throw in an enemy that drains power and Ember is toast.  Unlike what I've observed with Inaros.

So it really boils down to Inaros actually having a really solid kit to work with.... while Ember really doesn't.

That said, if you want to try to persuade me with build information, and other information (not self wanking screenshots) - and use the game formulas to back up what you're saying, be my guest.

[Djego27]

On 18.4.2017 at 0:35 AM, Almagnus1 said:

No, the problem is that it's a 45% Status bow with damage based on puncture that cannot be fired until fully charged, making it an exceedingly slow bow - when compared to the Rakta Cernos and Cernos Prime.

Then there's the Dread, which shows why Slash procs are good... assuming it doesn't kill on the first shot due to it's nuts crit chance.

So you disagree with status/s is the problem while pointing out that status/s is the problem because of intentional low fire rate?

On 18.4.2017 at 0:35 AM, Almagnus1 said:

Experience has shown those builds work just fine for me.

Do you want to take this one back?

Your builds are focused on rof and reload speed to create very high burst dps number what is useless on a weapon that still one shots stuff in sortis in normal builds while it would be a disadvantage by the higher ammo use and blast instead of much better scaling elements at higher levels. If I use 4 ammo restores in a 10 minute sorti for my boar prime, this is because of it being a ammo ineffective, low damage gun(the punch comes from status, that does require a constant high amount of rounds put even into easier targets). However why should you mod a weapon that can do the same thing without any ammo restores because it is kind of OP, into something that does while being even weaker in the long run(by the lack of better scaling elements like corrosive or radiation) while consuming a ton more ammo at the same time?

There actually was a thread on reddit of people trying to crunch how much burst dps you can get out of the akbronko prime with silly builds(a weapon that is realistically never used, given that it is halve a status shotgun by the 30% status with utterly terrible attributes clip size and reload speed to work as such in the long run). I just shake my head at this, because the akbronko prime is already painful to use at high levels by the long reload and low clip(while reducing the time to go through the clip in from 0.5s to 0.2s adds 150% burst dps, it does not add any practical value to it).

In short, what you prefer, I do not.

On 18.4.2017 at 0:35 AM, Almagnus1 said:

Inaros actually deals with them really easily as I can run through the bubble and shoot them in the face, assuming I haven't already dealt with them at range with either the Soma Prime or Akstiletto Prime that is.

Inaros does not deal easy with it, since it will be affected just as much as any other frame by it if you go high enught in scaling content. The only difference between me and you here is that you do not put yourself into the position where CC and player skill will most likely dictate success or failure, this is why you can not relate to units breaking this mechanic, because there is nothing you can do with Ember(or 90% of the frames in the game) at L100+ in the old T4S to avoid getting hit and instantly die. It is just roll a dice if the nullifier or anything else in his bubble does shot you or not in the 2 seconds . It removes any input of the player what is a utterly stupid mechanic to have in a game.

On 18.4.2017 at 0:35 AM, Almagnus1 said:

In other words, you're the only one that knows this game well enough, and the rest of us plebs on the forums should just bow to your knowledge.

I'll start taking what you say seriously when you actually start documenting what builds your using, until then, you're just stroking an ePeen that really needs a date with the business end of a Nikana Prime.

No I am just somebody that knows a lot more about frames, weapons and game mechanics that you and most people making you tube guides because I spend a fair amount of my time playing warframe at high levels without relaying on stupid mechanics, overpowered frames/weapons or just sitting there for hours and pressing a single button. I as most likely one of the few people in the game actually did test how Ember scales vs Saryn melee only in practical application(keep in mind that not even 1% of the people that are interested into a answer to that fairly bizarre question are actually capable to play with both frames to very high levels to get her awnser).

What I mean is literately what I did write. Do not relay on guides, do not relay on other peoples opinion, heck do not relate on my opinion. Take a frame, take some weapons, set your game to solo and just play a few endless missions.

You will see that you can not survive for more then 40 minutes on Ember, by the lack of CC. Now you look into getting more CC with changing your weapons, adding more power strength, using accelerant more and playing more aware of things that will one hit you. You realize you still take a very high amount of damage, what is most of the time not lethal but stacks up without you being able to compensate for it. You add a raksha kubrow + redirection and might look into arcane victory(the best self heal arcane in the game, as long as you use a shotgun, it is also incredible cheap because it is considered bad) and suddenly your Ember turns into a Rino with Iron shrapnel. Not because you have a ability that grants 2k EHP on demand, recast-able but replenish this EHP on your frame in a matter of seconds all the time, making Ember, outside of taking lethal one shot damage, insane durable compared to other frames, while still being a incredible powerful CC and dps frame at the same time. You now see you have issues killing stuff far beyond the 1h mark and look into even more power strength and weapons that are specifically designed to go around that issues, giving you nearly infinite scaling. Now you look at the forums again, and see people just as you did once complain that Ember is incapable of dealing with L60 targets or sorti missions, what are no challenge any more for you.

The funny thing is you can change Ember with any other frame that you like in that example and tweak it around your play style and you only really have to do that process of exploring how you actually make one frame really scale once, because outside of using stuff like Inaros that ignores most mechanics if not all of scaling, you can apply that to all further frames. It also gives you the ability to do runs with different frames and notice why many situations are easier with Ember by the massive CC and the low AOE damage compared to saryn with the higher AOE damage but no CC outside of spamming miasma is actually more enjoyable to play, because doing 3 more clicks to one shot stuff on screen is a lot less trouble then being trapped 25-50% of your playtime in a miasma animation on Saryn just to stay alive.

I do not imply that you can not do the same thing as me with Ember, because I know that you currently can't and it is just yourself plus a lot of very convenient and overpowered options that really holds you back. Considering me as god like player with a large Epeen is false because in reality I am not and my power might be as well yours, if you really want to. The frame is in your inventory same as it is in mine and your ability to utilize it to do awesome things with itis not worse then mine.

After this come back and give relevant input about game balance, because your views might have changed a lot, similar as mine did over the years.

On 18.4.2017 at 0:35 AM, Almagnus1 said:

People don't write guides on how to survive on subpar frames because there are other frames that will do everything Ember can do, and do it better.

When are you going to stop being delusional about Ember's capabilities and accept this truth?

Well I did actually explain fairly well why on a L100 extra armor grenier sorti Ember is more convenient to me then Inraros for a solo run.

If I use Inaros, enemy scaling is ignored, given that finishers one hit everything even without CL, enemy damage is ignored since it is trivial compared to your HP pool and instantly refreshed on any channelled finisher, frame utility might also be ignored, since you are perfectly capable to stun lock everything, even if you do not even need to do that given that you have a massive HP pool and can take a lot of hits. At this point the sorti might be just L1 and give you the reward instantly, because this is how different the amount of gear, preparation and player skill required for both frames is, what again is a result of the lack of balance in the game.

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

9 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Well I did actually explain fairly well why on a L100 extra armor grenier sorti Ember is more convenient to me then Inraros for a solo run.

Your explanations are nothing more than ramblings of a deranged mind with screenshots that don't really prove anything.

Please goto http://warframe-builder.com/ , recreate your build, and then link the export link.  Anything less and I call BS on you.

[Djego27]

My build on Ember is on the first page, blind rage is replaces with redirection for sortis to counter one hit kill stuff and intensify for flash accelerant with the prisma grakata.

As for deranged mind, I am a autist, what makes me medical attested 100% unable to relay to your emotional driven attachment to a idea that does not make any sense if you take away that there would be any emotions attached to it, since this comes purely form your emotional attachment while is not logical. It is not even predicable for me and that comes from the point of view of somebody that has to predict and emulate normal human behaviour every single day in my life(since different to you, nothing in our brain tells us to be like this) what makes you kind of a weird person.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

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As for deranged mind, I am a autist, what makes me medical attested 100% unable to relay to your emotional driven attachment to a idea that does not make any sense if you take away that there would be any emotions attached to it, since this comes purely form your emotional attachment while is not logical. It is not even predicable for me and that comes from the point of view of somebody that has to predict and emulate normal human behaviour every single day in my life(since different to you, nothing in our brain tells us to be like this) what makes you kind of a weird person.

So you're losing an argument and you play the autism card?

That's messed up dude - and it's extremely offensive to those of us (like me) that don't use our mental conditions as a "get out of jail free card" in an argument.

[Djego27]

Look the point is that I can never share your emotional dissatisfaction with nerfs, because it is a simple process of changing game mechanics in the vision DE might or might not have to dictate the direction of the game. A nerf is just as good as a buff, since both are just changes to game balance, while it triggers completely different response for you. I can also not share your satisfaction of finding the next best overpowered thing, what is very obvious in F2P games to be easy to find for a normal player and stimulate people to invest into that, till it is changed and people have to invest into something new, rise and repeat, because it is designed around to trigger something in you, while it does nothing for me.

If you think it is unintentional than you are wrong, because playing with your emotional driven desires instead of your logical side of your mind stimulate players into spending more money(because it is much harder for them to control) is a very well documented thing in games with just as much thought process and careful consideration put into it as the graphic you see on the screen. The main difference is just that it will not work on me(it would be like trying to sell a beautiful painting to a blind person), because it is designed around a neurological normal person(what is called normal simply because the majority of the human race is like that), by people that did actually study how you stimulate them best to make a purchase with a strong emotional motivation while you would not do that on a pure logical level. It also creates further issues that it triggers other parts of the neurological spectrum even more, with things like for example gambling addiction, obsession with grind(what a autist can also very easily fall victim for, because we like repetitive tasks more then normal people) or obsession of whales to get a big positive feedback from other players by the amount of money the spend for that and that alone. This is the reason why eastern countries have actual laws that restrict the excessive use of that in games for developers, because eastern people, by the way they respond to them are far more in danger to fall victim to this to a point where it can ruin her life.

For me it is just bad overall balance and a game that offers a lot of similar good options has a similar if not greater amount of items you want to acquire, invest time and plat into and have fun with.

Autism does not mean I do not understand that there is a strong emotional influence in nearly every thing the human mind comes up with. I probably understand that better then most, because I have a much easier time to recognise it is there on others then they have for them self, given that I have to actually think about why it is there and what the person expects me to interpret because it is present, what other people do for the most part without a lot of thought process attached to it natural. However if you base a argument simply on the value of emotions attached to it, without building a argument that is supported by a real logic behind it, it simply disappears for me.

The only reason we tell other people that we are like this is to prevent them form trying over and over to appeal to something that we do not share with them, similar as a blind person does communicate very clearly that he can not see the world like you do or a deft person can not understand what you say(to him, assuming you remove lip reading, every spoken language is just like one you just do not speak as normal person). We all do that to prevent others to get frustrated trying to communicate with us in a ineffective way, because we respond to that different then they might expect.

As for your string of arguments:

Ember needs the current WoF. I explained why WoF should change and why I think it is bad for the game overall, even if you enjoy it. Simply because it diminishes actual game play and comes at the expense of other people that actually want to use her guns at lower levels.

Ember would have no use at all without the current WoF. I shown you that you can do a lot more with the frame then you and most players think and that it is comparable in performance to other much more known high damage frames, where the main difference is for the most part that fire damage scaling is a lot more gear/modding related(what could, as I pointed out need some work to lessen the issues) compared to abilities like mprime or spore that are flat out 100% damage buffs for you and everybody in your team with every weapon and any other ability. Objectively Embers damage buff is even stronger, while most people don't even know it is there because it is only present on fire based abilities and weapons modded around specific, impractical for other tasks, builds.

Ember should be massively buffed to be comparable in the mechanic to plain ignore a lot of game mechanics like Inaros. I do not agree that this is reasonable, given that Ember is already comparable to average design with the advantages and drawbacks to other frames, what means balanced compared to them. I also do not think it is a good to do this, because it reduces choice of frames and tools that we are given to deal with the mechanics normally to a point that Inaros is a big out liner, not Ember.

You suggest a lot of buffs to weapons that already are in a balanced state compared to other options. A crit modded soma prime will do more damage then a status modded boar prime, even before you look into issues with spread and damage falloff. However additional mechanics like status make the boar prime much better against high levels of armor to a point where both weapons are similar useful, just for different tasks with different advantages and disadvantages. A vHek in comparison will be just better then the soma or boar prime against any faction even at sorti levels to a point where it is just the better option and players might as well complain that other options do not exist, what you basically do by demanding buffs.

You perceive me as a hypocrite for using weapons like the vhek because I am for some reason in your perception a try hard person that restricts himself to a artificial level of difficulty for the plain sake of doing so. While I do that most of the time, because the game is fairly boring if you utilize cheese, I also use specific tools to help me perform well compared to other players in content like sortis. However I can still have my opinion that things like vhek, naramon or Inaros are bad for the game. I would not stop to use my vhek if it would do 15% less damage tomorrow, since it would still be a very good weapon that gives me reasons to use it while making alternatives more appealing as well. This is something that makes me different from what might be the average warframe player that gets deeply emotional disturbed if you change a number on some pixels in a make believe world a bit downwards, even if it would make a lot of sense from a pure logical point of view. 

You state that your modding is superior then mine, because it creates higher numbers in warframe builder. However if you put damage types, mechanics like CC and status into consideration I will have a much easier time at high levels then you. This is not because your logical approach is wrong but because you lack the experience at high level in warframe to judge better how useful one thing is compared to the other there.

You state that I have a large epeen. Things that would be unnatural behaviour to me to a point where you could say I can't really do that(technically I can, I would just not have the emotional motivation for doing so).

Now you are offended by me telling you that the reason I can not relate to your argument that is not based around logic but purely emotional related is because our minds are different, giving you the advantage to take this into consideration before trying to add more emotional related content to your argument and expecting that is does add weight to your argument for me.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Djego27