my take on difficulty without too much enemy scaling and too much nerfing

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

usually the harder difficulty should be based on number of enemy spawns that eventually overwhelms the player rather than being bulletsponges with 1 hit kill. like how even the most elite soldier can be killed by a zombie horde.

but wf is different because of skills that can  wipe out entire maps if mobs dont have enough ehp.

also wf is most enjoyable because it allows spamming of overpowered skills and nerfing is always a controversial topic.

here is my analysis.

on pre nerf ash the reason it has become unstopabble press 4 to win is because it can replenish or even save up energy with each cast of blade storm instead of being a hard to cast super strong skill.

the issue comes from energy efficiency and abundant energy orbs thus unlimited skill cc.

cc is fine but the ability to cc infinitely is what makes the game very easy.

so my proposal is either remove efficiency or limit energy orbs drops.

the only nerf im seeing is trinity ev, all trinity in party should not gain energy from ev to make her actually run out of it.

basically the best way to achieve difficulty is to make the team exhaust resources with the growing number of enemies. the team who can coordinate to efficiently cast skills wins the longest.

next issue is melee as it is usually a 1 hit kill and does not need ammo, it is also fast. the change should be is that there should be a pause after each attack combo. it can be fast but the next combo should not come right away. this will give time for mobs to counter after a melee attack. the challenge is implementing this without being clunky.

then as much as i love infinite invisibility this must consume energy too that should eventualy run out. probably make invisibility a channel ability across the frames, including naramon.

primary weapons are ok as it is because even if you can 1shot anything the reload speed is significant and can also run out of ammo.

the real question is the game engine capability on how much enemy can it spawn in the game.

[Drasiel]

Your blue font most certainly reads well on the light theme but for us using the dark it's barely legible.

Td;Cr too dark couldn't read. 

[Volinus7]

What you said is basically pulling the plug from all perpetual builds combined with scaling cap.

Good or bad? There's one thing I'm sure, minmaxers and endurance runners will be enraged lol.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Volinus7

[-N7-Leonhart]

If this were to be a thing, there are far more things to be balanced, other than you mentioned. The energy restores, Rage mod and stuff like Zenurik or Arcane Energize, all will have to be balanced around it which is no easy thing to do.

Also, guns would certainly be a more viable option, since there are many means to make them replenish a lot more ammo from drops than they should, making them fire indefinitely.

What you propose here will need complete overhaul of the game, which I am sure you realize it won't happen easily, or probably at all.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

3 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

What you said is basically pulling the plug from all perpetual builds combined with scaling cap.

Good or bad? There's one thing I'm sure, minmaxers and endurance runners will be enraged lol.

minmaxers maybe but i think this is a new kind of endurance run.

also the alternative if we dont want to remove mods is the energy orb solution.

either way the game will scale to a point where difficulty is unwinnable anyways. this is just to move away from one shotters and bullet sponges. also it is more rewarding to a point that more enemies means more loot.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

2 minutes ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

If this were to be a thing, there are far more things to be balanced, other than you mentioned. The energy restores, Rage mod and stuff like Zenurik or Arcane Energize, all will have to be balanced around it which is no easy thing to do.

Also, guns would certainly be a more viable option, since there are many means to make them replenish a lot more ammo from drops than they should, making them fire indefinitely.

What you propose here will need complete overhaul of the game, which I am sure you realize it won't happen easily, or probably at all.

even with max efficiency if there are lower energy orb drops as the battle gets longer the team will run out if they dont use it sparingly.

energy restores are limited per run and 100 per tick. put down 4 and you will deplete it easier.

guns with all the ammo in the world if you reload you stopped attacking for a while. 

i think it is easier to implement rather than rebalancing all 300+ weapons.

in the end it is matter of choice to keep the enemy scaling or go with the resource reduction formula.

[Drasiel]

Don't forget if you remove energy sources then enemy leaching Mechanics also need revision or removal. Few are going to enjoy the random energy nukes, terrain ignoring energy drain, enemy attacks granted energy drain on hit, energy drain doors and any other energy affecting enemy mechanics I can think of. 

Energy balance isn't just about affecting energy gain, it's everything else that tangentially touches it. Enemy scaling, power costs, warframe energy pools, power damage types, power utility value, all base power stats, team composition, solo play. I think your simple Solution is a lot more complicated than you think it is. 

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

8 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Don't forget if you remove energy sources then enemy leaching Mechanics also need revision or removal. Few are going to enjoy the random energy nukes, terrain ignoring energy drain, enemy attacks granted energy drain on hit, energy drain doors and any other energy affecting enemy mechanics I can think of. 

Energy balance isn't just about affecting energy gain, it's everything else that tangentially touches it. Enemy scaling, power costs, warframe energy pools, power damage types, power utility value, all base power stats, team composition, solo play. I think your simple Solution is a lot more complicated than you think it is. 

reduce not remove. ok balance the energy gain.

now we created a dynamic battle, when are you relying on your loadout or your skills, with the leechers mechanic the gameplay shifted from cc skills to gunning and dodging looking for those energy. energy drain traps becomes more threathening.  but you still got your weapons and parkour.

balancing will always be an issue and it never is simple but as it stands today the gameplay is cc and cc and cc or we are just too op. casual runners dont go beyond one rotation because there is not much reward and it is not worth the effort.

[FireSegment]

1 hour ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

so my proposal is either remove efficiency or limit energy orbs drops.

the only nerf im seeing is trinity ev, all trinity in party should not gain energy from ev to make her actually run out of it.

basically the best way to achieve difficulty is to make the team exhaust resources with the growing number of enemies. the team who can coordinate to efficiently cast skills wins the longest.

so your idea of "difficulty" basically make the whole game become a Energy Reduction mode in sortie? That's it? No thanks, u completely missed the point. We already passed the energy hunger state (back around u7-u10 or so) - where frames are trash and u dont even equip mods for abilities. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

 

next issue is melee as it is usually a 1 hit kill and does not need ammo, it is also fast. the change should be is that there should be a pause after each attack combo. it can be fast but the next combo should not come right away. this will give time for mobs to counter after a melee attack. the challenge is implementing this without being clunky.

What would this achieve? does the pause still there if the enemy not dead in one strike? What would happen with all the weapon that have fast attack speed in concept (fist, claws, ...)? Why would the pause matter anyway if we already killed them with one strike?

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

 

then as much as i love infinite invisibility this must consume energy too that should eventualy run out. probably make invisibility a channel ability across the frames, including naramon.

the only thing i agree with you is that invisibility should contain more risk, however, we already have that kind of risk play out really well in Ivara, and only frame that can get near the perma invis is loki, but DE dont nerf him since ... the game started speak volume on how they (DE) want to keep it.

Overall mate, sorry to say this but when i imagine your idea take effect, it pretty closed to the state of Archwing when it just got introduced in U15 ...... The difficulty you present cant be justify, yet it not even a difficulty since you dont provide any way for player to get around the no-energy-for-you policy.

[KingOfHearts]

That is all great. It really is tweek that reduce here, how about letting us have all the overpowered stuff but just make stronger new enemy's and i dont mean ehp damage armor wise. I mean nulifier manic's i mean sargases ruks x100 i mean a freaking horde of heynas  a challenge to something overpowered that a warframe should be.

How many new toys and frames did we get over the last 4 years of wf standing strong how many of them got nerfed in to not fun? Every weapon or frame ever added.
How many new enemy's that didnt die from a bullet to the head did we get? How many new enemy's that didnt die from this or that ability did we get? you know the answer to that one.