[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Frenjo]

I have to say, at this point, it would have been better to leave limbo where he was than cause all this uproar with such drastic changes.

[Azamagon]

So, tried out him quite extensively now. I hold the exact same opinion as when I guessed how it would end up. Albeit, slightly worse.

Passive - Still getting the hang of this. I think it can work, but I honestly think it wasn't needed for Limbo's revamp.
If it's here to stay, I'd say it needs to have the ability to swap in and out without needing the dash (standstill toggle), which shouldn't create the tear either. Actual dashing (and tear creation) should only happen while moving + rolling. (Sidenote: Is the tear even necessary at all?)
Also, some kind of indicator (like a buff-indicator) that is is active would also be nice. Especially so if the near invisible Rift-shimmer-effect is here to stay.

Banish - While I understand that you need to make sure that your Warframe has a weakness (which is made null by Cata+Stasis anyway...), was it necessary to make Banish like this?
If I had my way on it, I'd change it like this:
Tapcast = Banish a single target. This banishment can banish back and forth between planes without restriction (i.e: Old banish)
Holdcast = Banish in an AoE, with soft-targetting a lá Rest & Rage. This banishment can only banish enemies INTO the same plane as Limbo is in (meaning, if he is in the Rift, all banished targets will go into the Rift. In other words, the opposite direction of the current AoE banish)

Stasis - Exactly the trolling+clunk issues as predicted. It should only stop enemies from moving, not stop Limbo's / allied projectiles. Understandly, it needs to have a downside, so why not make its duration tick slightly faster (like 10%?) for each additional enemy caught in it instead or something? *shrugs*
Also, some kind of clear indicator that Stasis is active (other than the timer in the bottom right) would be very nice. Old Rift Surge's particles perhaps?

Rift Surge - I really tried to use this ability. But in the end, since its interaction mainly seems to be hinted at with Banish, it feels like a complete waste of an effort to use this ability (+Banish), when Cataclysm does the same job as Banish+Rift Surge faster anyway. I mean, wasn't the point of this revisit to remove redundancy?
I'd honestly revamp this ability entirely, again.
My suggestion: Make it a twofold ability, very similar to Accelerant:
1) Places a buff on Limbo (the old selfdamagebuff he had, toned down if necessary)
2) Places a debuff on enemies within X radius upon cast, which weakens enemy damage output. If enemies are killed with the debuff on them, they explode, dealing radial damage around them. (With the explosion being much more powerful if the killed enemy was in the Rift).
This ability should be recastable at any point.

Cataclysm - Generally much better, especially when used in conjunction with Stasis (obviously).
But I have one REALLY annoying gripe with it: If you are in the Rift via his passive Rift Dash, go into a Cataclysm, and then exit the Cataclysm... why is the Rift Dash cancelled?! It's really frustrating! Can we please NOT have Cataclysm cancel his Rift Dash?

Rift in general - I honestly dislike how the "Rift flames" got so hard to see. I'm probably one of the few that thinks that way though *shrugs*.
Being able to pick stuff cross-rift up is a nice change though, no doubt.

To be honest, I think this revamp was overdone, a bit too drastic.
Not that I think anyone cares, but here's how I would've changed him:

Passive
* Rift dash removed.
* Keep the reloadspeed (and movementspeed) buff, but make the reloadspeed work at half the bonus in the Material plane. This means, he has a passive that works all the time (but works better when in the Rift).

Rift in general
Allow us to interact with anything crossrift, please? At the very least with things caught by Cataclysm?

Banish
Tapcast = Banish a single target. This banishment can banish back and forth between planes without restriction (i.e: Old banish)
Holdcast = Banish in an AoE, with soft-targetting a lá Rest & Rage. This banishment can only banish enemies INTO the same plane as Limbo is in (meaning, if he is in the Rift, all banished targets will go into the Rift. In other words, the opposite of the current AoE banish)

Rift Walk
Combine the old Rift Walk (selfbanish) and old Rift Surge (selfdamagebuff). Also make it a "legfree" cast (you can run and cast it, but not shoot).

Stasis
Same as now, but with a few changes:
* No longer stops ally projectiles.
* For each enemy caught by Stasis, the duration of Stasis ticks down a little bit faster. Say, 10% faster for each additional enemy. That means, catch 10 enemies in stasis and it ticks 100% faster (i.e., it lasts for up to half the speed). The penalty is adaptive too, with dead enemies not counting anymore. This promotes killing quickly, and keeps an important downside to it which cannot be circumvented (unlike the current one, with the use of melee/abilities).
* Add a buffindicator and some visual effect on Limbo, to better clarify that it is active (reuse the old swirling particles which the old Rift Surge used to have? Those particles could swirl faster in relation to the durationpenalty, to help you see that it is ticking down faster)

Cataclysm
Keep as the current Cataclysm, it's good. (Just make sure it doesn't dispel Rift Walk in this version *mumblegrumble*)

[Frenjo]

6 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Banish - While I understand that you need to make sure that your Warframe has a weakness (which is made null by Cata+Stasis anyway...), was it necessary to make Banish like this?

 

If I had my way on it, I'd change it like this:
Tapcast = Banish a single target. This banishment can banish back and forth between planes without restriction (i.e: Old banish)
Holdcast = Banish in an AoE, with soft-targetting a lá Rest & Rage. This banishment can only banish enemies INTO the same plane as Limbo is in (meaning, if he is in the Rift, all banished targets will go into the Rift. In other words, the opposite direction of the current AoE banish)

To be honest as a start, I think they should just revert banish to the way it was and glaring problem number one is fixed.

EDIT: I feel that would improve the flow significantly and make it way less clunky. (I guess at least now I get to say... "Back in my day...")

Edited March 26, 2017 by Frenjo

[Azamagon]

Just now, Frenjo said:

To be honest as a start, I think they should just revert banish to the way it was and glaring problem number one is fixed.

Yeah, if that is easy to do, I'd be happy.

Cataclysm (and new Rift Surge) would be his AoE banishment anyway.
Still, why is Rift Surge the way it is? It feels like quite a redundant ability imo... and wasn't part of the Limbo rework to remove redundancy?

[Frenjo]

Just now, Azamagon said:

Yeah, if that is easy to do, I'd be happy.

Cataclysm (and new Rift Surge) would be his AoE banishment anyway.
Still, why is Rift Surge the way it is? It feels like quite a redundant ability imo... and wasn't part of the Limbo rework to remove redundancy?

Ermagerd! Finally someone that talks sense! :D

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Banish' changes do seem to be the biggest complaint out of all complaints, for being both counterintuitive and user-surly. 

And if reverting it means you can stay in the Rift indefinitely and yank enemies in with you, so be it. That's DEs problem for turning something that is gameplay-significant enough to be a power (Rift walk) into a passive. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Frenjo]

Just now, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

It does seem to be the biggest complaint out of all complaints, for being both counterintuitive and user-surly. 

And if it means you can stay in the Rift indefinitely and yank enemies in with you, so be it. That's DEs problem for turning something that is gameplay-significant enough to be a power (Rift walk) into a passive. 

Exactly! People actually start to get it! I'm nearly crying with happiness that people are finally coming out and stating my points for me.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

1 minute ago, Frenjo said:

Exactly! People actually start to get it! I'm nearly crying with happiness that people are finally coming out and stating my points for me.

Oh, I've been a rework-hater since the beginning. I bathe in Haterade just to keep the flow. 

I was mostly worried about control ergonomics and controller limitations, though.

[Frenjo]

Just now, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Oh, I've been a rework-hater since the beginning. I bathe in Haterade just to keep the flow.

Gotta admit, same here. I just want to make it semi bearable and have been trying to hide my pure loathing for it.

[AerinSol]

3 hours ago, LegionCynex said:

So, here is the less "Omg Fantasy" idea

Limbo's Passive:

His passive chuold do with a bit of a bigger buff, While in the Rift, Limbo receives a much bigger Energy regeneration. Additionally, enemies killed in the Rift will grant Limbo 10 Energy, His Dash Passive, Remains how it is. (However I suggestion a Toggle)

Banish: Limbo can Bring Enemies into the Rift, regardless of what plane he is in. Items can be still picked up and dropped safely, Regardless what plane.. Allies inside the rift, gain Limbos Dash Power, so they can exit much quicker. Note: They will lose the dash, when they leave. Duh.

Rift Surge: Allow it to be casted regardless of what plane you are in. (Like How does this power even work?, I can;t cast it inside or outside the rift) 

Rift Surge needs to be cast on an enemy and while there is at least one in the rift. But still only works half the time. Currently Rift Surge is bugged to hell. I get 1 kill and the ability cancels. Or 3-5 with enemies still in the rift and it cancels. Then of course the casting works half the time.

[Music4Therapy]

Guys, play more of new Limbo before telling them to change things.

The interactions between his abilities are AMAZING and offer levels of synergy that no other frame aside from Nidus comes close to approaching, and even then the depth in which they work together add a certain complexity to the character that makes it feel VERY rewarding.

You cannot talk about any one of his abilities without including how they work with the others. A great example of this is his reworked Banish. At first glance, his Banish may seem to be clunky. Why do you have to be in the same plane as a target to banish them? But when you see how it interacts with the rest of his kit, you appreciate this fact. You see, he is given enhanced energy generation when in the rift, this encourages the use of his abilities... including his most expensive ability, his cataclysm. Using his cataclysm, you can send large amount of enemies into the rift. Using his 3, you can "prime" said targets, which allows you to prematurely end your cataclysm and force all primed targets to remain in the rift. From that point, any enemies not primed or not in the rift can be sent there via the use of his 1 then primed from outside the rift via the use of his 3.

There are so many interactions within his kit. His new 3 is amazing and is what allows many of these interactions to take place. His Stasis is exactly what he needed to be able to safely go in and out of the rift. His cataclysm before was hard to interact with, but with changes to his 3 becomes so simple and fluid. His new 1, while the change to it not drastic, made it work perfectly with his new kit. I, for one, love what DE did with the rework.

That said, I believe the damage numbers should be given another look. There is a particular combo that he can use, the 4-3-4 combo, that feels too powerful. For all you Limbo players out there, do what I did. You don't need power strength, just max out his range. Perhaps his efficiency. Go into a survival, I personally tested this in Mot and ODS (farming for Octavia), and spam 4-3-4. Teammates of mine were unable to touch enemies as they would instantaneously die upon coming into my massive range. I didn't have energy issues either, with max efficiency and his already superb energy generation, continuously upkeeping his 4 then using his 3, dropping his 4 then summoning another Cataclysm, rinse and repeat, was a very destructive force. Using this method, even an hour into ODS, the vast majority of enemies were dying instantly upon coming into my range (62.5m)

[AerinSol]

What he says too^

Insta-nuke Cataclysm is a bit too much. Reduce damage to 85% of Health and Shield of enemies in the rift.

[AerinSol]

Also, can't unbanish allies in either plane at times. I'm guessing because they are next to enemies that are in a different plane.

[(PSN)psycofang]

You guys need to actually play and test him before demanding so many nerfs. Play him, until you can manipulate all his mechanics moderately well.

 

It SOUNDS like a lot of you are hoping on for an hour or less trying things you USED to do and getting upset\confused because it doesnt function like that anymore so you want it back.

 

Banish is still useful and whoever says its not doesnt know what they are talking about. It can banish selected enemies from the rift and cause a 5m banish for every enemy ejected and they all get sucked back in.

 

You can resurge the enemies that missed too which is only helping you. 

Who cares if you banish allies with enemies? You should have your 2 up regardless so they can kill mobs and be in 0 danger if you accidentally catch your team.

Banish can also knock down waves of enemies for bonus damage and time stop them to keep it going until they are all dead.

His abilities are a little glitched atm but thats just new patch shenanigans.

The way his powers work now, especially his 4 collapsing finishing off all those hurt enemies are very fluid and functioning. 

 

 

Its like the Saryn change all over again

 

 

[(PSN)psycofang]

23 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Guys, play more of new Limbo before telling them to change things.

The interactions between his abilities are AMAZING and offer levels of synergy that no other frame aside from Nidus comes close to approaching, and even then the depth in which they work together add a certain complexity to the character that makes it feel VERY rewarding.

You cannot talk about any one of his abilities without including how they work with the others. A great example of this is his reworked Banish. At first glance, his Banish may seem to be clunky. Why do you have to be in the same plane as a target to banish them? But when you see how it interacts with the rest of his kit, you appreciate this fact. You see, he is given enhanced energy generation when in the rift, this encourages the use of his abilities... including his most expensive ability, his cataclysm. Using his cataclysm, you can send large amount of enemies into the rift. Using his 3, you can "prime" said targets, which allows you to prematurely end your cataclysm and force all primed targets to remain in the rift. From that point, any enemies not primed or not in the rift can be sent there via the use of his 1 then primed from outside the rift via the use of his 3.

There are so many interactions within his kit. His new 3 is amazing and is what allows many of these interactions to take place. His Stasis is exactly what he needed to be able to safely go in and out of the rift. His cataclysm before was hard to interact with, but with changes to his 3 becomes so simple and fluid. His new 1, while the change to it not drastic, made it work perfectly with his new kit. I, for one, love what DE did with the rework.

That said, I believe the damage numbers should be given another look. There is a particular combo that he can use, the 4-3-4 combo, that feels too powerful. For all you Limbo players out there, do what I did. You don't need power strength, just max out his range. Perhaps his efficiency. Go into a survival, I personally tested this in Mot and ODS (farming for Octavia), and spam 4-3-4. Teammates of mine were unable to touch enemies as they would instantaneously die upon coming into my massive range. I didn't have energy issues either, with max efficiency and his already superb energy generation, continuously upkeeping his 4 then using his 3, dropping his 4 then summoning another Cataclysm, rinse and repeat, was a very destructive force. Using this method, even an hour into ODS, the vast majority of enemies were dying instantly upon coming into my range (62.5m)

I agree whole heartedly good write up.

[Frenjo]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Banish is still useful and whoever says its not doesnt know what they are talking about. It can banish selected enemies from the rift and cause a 5m banish for every enemy ejected and they all get sucked back in.

That's not the point. The point is cataclysm can just nuke everything without even worrying about banish, and do the exact same time freeze. Right now banish is pointless. My vote goes towards reset it to pre-rework banish and Limbo will be better than right now.

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

That's not the point. The point is cataclysm can just nuke everything without even worrying about banish, and do the exact same time freeze. Right now banish is pointless. My vote goes towards reset it to pre-rework banish and Limbo will be better than right now.

And yet most other arguments had nothing to do with cataclysm at all and only about multiplane banish because they couldnt dash and pull things in with him like old limbo. Thats MY point.

Edited March 26, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[Frenjo]

Just now, (PS4)psycofang said:

And yet most other arguments had nothing to do with cataclysm at all and only about multiplane banish. Thats MY point.

Multiplane banish is needed to make it separate from cataclysm as a precision tool, lose the aoe and multiplane it and boom, banish is fixed.

[Eldest89]

Just now, Frenjo said:

Multiplane banish is needed to make it separate from cataclysm as a precision tool, lose the aoe and multiplane it and boom, banish is fixed.

Yeah I agree with you

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

30 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Guys, play more of new Limbo before telling them to change things.

The interactions between his abilities are AMAZING and offer levels of synergy that no other frame aside from Nidus comes close to approaching, and even then the depth in which they work together add a certain complexity to the character that makes it feel VERY rewarding

We'll see how it goes when it hits console, but without changes I don't see using much Limbo. The new synergies sound cool, but running the power board to make the synergy work will give me repetitive stress injuries. 

(even the relatively simple 4-3-4 combo is 9 button presses to start, and 5 per rotation to sustain; one other suggested combo can be up to 17 button presses each time). 

Edited March 26, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Multiplane banish is needed to make it separate from cataclysm as a precision tool, lose the aoe and multiplane it and boom, banish is fixed.

 

If its single target multi plane then i agree, still doesn't mean (reading from various arguments) that his 1 is useless.

And tone down Cataclysm damage but that also might be a bug related to a number of weapons dealing 4 billion damage per shot.

[Frenjo]

31 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Guys, play more of new Limbo before telling them to change things.

Implying I regularly play anything /other/ than Limbo?

[(PSN)psycofang]

4 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Implying I regularly play anything /other/ than Limbo?

 

Play time doesnt mean jack, ive met hakumen players who played him for 8 years and still couldnt understand his counters or mugen loops.

 

Same as saying im an X main because that also doesnt mean anything.

 

I wish i had bought some recording equipment while im playing on pc to post vids on the ins and outs of new limbo entirely but i cant. 

[Music4Therapy]

I'd spend less time on the boards and more time playing new Limbo. The guy is a different kind of animal. Take the time to really learn the new synergies within his kit. Take him into long survival runs, solo. Really enjoy the power you now have to have absolute control over the battlefield. He is 100% the tactician frame now, and he will be good in the hands of an average players and top tier in the hands of a great player. I love the changes DE has made, and his 4-3-4 combo is broken good and needs another look. This is coming from an endurance player. My idea of endgame is level 3000+ enemies.

[Ta10S]

Why can PS4 user talk about new Limbo as if he played this? I suppose that PS4 is still U19.