[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

2 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

Please, the lack of challenge is one of the main things that are making people leave warframe, and you guys want DE to keep on doing it?

So, based on my experience reading these forums, the hardcore non-mainstream are all about maximum efficiency kill-everything-with-one-button farming. The sheer amount of people who look down on players who'd actually like to shoot things rather than watch an Ember kill it before you can reach it, or walk along behind the Miragulor gathering plastids, kinda points out that New Limbo is following the low difficulty kill-em-all frame design mode.

You can be clever and hit all four powers in certain order if you want, but it sounds very much like you don't need to, so I imagine it's not going to be long before people just stop playing clever games and focus on straight up 2+4 damage dealing. 

[DreadWarlock]

7 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Why give him the rift in the first place then if it's considered overpowered then try to force him out of it? No, we need to shuffle the way you access and enter the rift around in order to fix these things. The rework needs a rework.

No, the only problem this rework has, two problems actually. Is the mechanics of Rift surge and the Cataclysm synergy with Rift Torrent. As soon as he stops killing everything instantly(which is cancer to any game, not just here), he'll be pretty balanced.

Limbo has always been a niche warframe, cattering to certain kinds of people, making it excessively simple and easy is not the way to go about it, you'll attract the wrong kind of players.

It's okay to have powerful abilities, but players also have to work to build up what they are intending to do.

This kind of no risk, all rewards playstyle that these mechanics bring, will only make people sick in the long run.

Why else do you think people abandoned their Tonkor long before the nerf even happened? The weapon was boring as hell.

It got easily dropped by the Miragulor which was still fresh, and in time people would abandon it too, even without the nerfs. Hell they already did, it was changed from Simulor to Telos Boltace.

Edited March 28, 2017 by DreadWarlock
Extra comments.

[Frenjo]

I don't see why people are fighting against multiplane banish though, because of the fact that it makes their lives easier and removes the unnecessary complexity? I just... I don't get people.

[DreadWarlock]

6 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

I don't see why people are fighting against multiplane banish though, because of the fact that it makes their lives easier and removes the unnecessary complexity? I just... I don't get people.

That's because Games are not a job, we play to have fun. Excessive efficiency disrupt that fun, not all people like having the challenge being taken away. 

It's not a problem for players who play more casually, but for hardcore players, who want to learn all mechanics and explore them. They are being punished for using said mechanics. Because the game has been rewarding players for ignoring said mechanics.

Exactly what Telos Boltace did to the melee aspect of the game. Why combo when it's more effective to cosplay as a beyblade? Why aim for headshots, when AOE weapons can wreck everything instantly regardless of where you hit your enemy? Why bullet jump or roll, when you kill so many enemies instantly that you simply won't let enemies shoot their guns?

Can you see how that is a big problem for people who devoted themselves to explore the game's mechanics?

Edited March 28, 2017 by DreadWarlock

[Frenjo]

Just now, DreadWarlock said:

That's because Games are not a job, we play to have fun. Excessive efficiency disrupt that fun, not all people like having the challenge being taken away. 

It's not a problem for players who play more casually, but for hardcore players, who want to learn all mechanics and explore them, are being punished for using said mechanics, because the game has been rewarding players for ignoring said mechanics. Exactly what Telos Boltace did to the melee aspect of the game. Why combo when it's more effective to cosplay as a beyblade? Why aim for headshots, when AOE weapons can wreck everything instantly regardless of where you hit your enemy? Why bullet jump or roll, when you kill so many enemies instantly that you simply won't let enemies shoot their guns?

Can you see how that is a big problem for people who devoted themselves to explore the game's mechanics?

It's nothing to do with excessive efficiency, it's the fact that it's just too damn overcomplicated for a simple action!

[DreadWarlock]

8 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

It's nothing to do with excessive efficiency, it's the fact that it's just too damn overcomplicated for a simple action!

It's not complicated. Much on the contrary, i've seen gemes who were much more complex and they ended up being fan favorites. The problem is that DE screwed up and let these tools run free for far too long. Now nobody makes an effort to try and use the mechanics.

Edited March 28, 2017 by DreadWarlock

[Ta10S]

12 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

I don't see why people are fighting against multiplane banish though, because of the fact that it makes their lives easier and removes the unnecessary complexity? I just... I don't get people.

I'm the one who don't get it.
Same-Plane restriction of banish ruined the knockdown effect of itself. Former banish enable limbo to ground finisher immediately. But now, we need to banish enemies and use rift dash and come close to them, and they don't wait you to come closer.

[Frenjo]

1 minute ago, Ta10S said:

I'm the one who don't get it.
Same-Plane restriction of banish ruined the knockdown effect of itself. Former banish enable limbo to ground finisher immediately. But now, we need to banish enemies and use rift dash and come close to them, and they don't wait you to come closer.

Exactly, it also kind of defeats the purpose.

EDIT: *insert make banish great again meme here*

Edited March 28, 2017 by Frenjo

[Brainwright]

49 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Collapsing cataclysm nukes everything anyway without rift surge :P

?

I think that Rift Surge was poorly worded, because not even I understood it at first.  So let me explain it to you since you seem to be having vast difficulties :

 

Rift Surge enemies while in your Cat.  Then, when your Cat collapses, enemies are still in the Rift, still stasis'd and can be banished as little bombs when new enemies come by.

This is an ever escalating mountain of power that essentially makes Limbo able to kill anything on a mass scale.  I don't see a problem here.

[Frenjo]

Just now, Brainwright said:

?

I think that Rift Surge was poorly worded, because not even I understood it at first.  So let me explain it to you since you seem to be having vast difficulties :

 

Rift Surge enemies while in your Cat.  Then, when your Cat collapses, enemies are still in the Rift, still stasis'd and can be banished as little bombs when new enemies come by.

This is an ever escalating mountain of power that essentially makes Limbo able to kill anything on a mass scale.  I don't see a problem here.

Like I said, collapsing cataclysm clears the field without even using rift surge.

[DreadWarlock]

1 minute ago, Brainwright said:

?

I think that Rift Surge was poorly worded, because not even I understood it at first.  So let me explain it to you since you seem to be having vast difficulties :

 

Rift Surge enemies while in your Cat.  Then, when your Cat collapses, enemies are still in the Rift, still stasis'd and can be banished as little bombs when new enemies come by.

This is an ever escalating mountain of power that essentially makes Limbo able to kill anything on a mass scale.  I don't see a problem here.

Yep, that's the chain reaction thingy that was mentioned in Rift Surge's description. I use it on banish and it's already decent.

[Frenjo]

2 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

Yep, that's the chain reaction thingy that was mentioned in Rift Surge's description. I use it on banish and it's already decent.

Well, I don't get how it's working for some people, but for myself and a bunch of others in this very thread it isn't working.

Addendum: DE can you explain exactly whether it's bugged or not, or what else is going on?

Edited March 28, 2017 by Frenjo

[DreadWarlock]

Just now, Frenjo said:

Well, I don't get how it's working for some people, but for myself and a bunch of others in this very thread it isn't working.

I've mentioned a few posts ago that this ability is indeed a bit buggy at the moment. Sometimes it works, or it works in a manner that you don't want it to, or even it does not work at all. I think it's bug, but it usually works better with cataclysm.

[Frenjo]

I just thought of something, people are arguing about banish being multiplane, but in either event, the hardcore non-mainstream farmers can just ignore it by pressing 2 + 4 to win... So why's it even a problem?

[malekas]

8 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

I just thought of something, people are arguing about banish being multiplane, but in either event, the hardcore non-mainstream farmers can just ignore it by pressing 2 + 4 to win... So why's it even a problem?

I like my frames to have 4 useful abilities. Right now Limbo has 2, Stasis and Cataclysm.

 

Banish and Rift Surge are both clunky wastes of energy. I would like to see them tweaked, but DE will probably do the same thing they did with Mag and forget about them now that the rework is out.

[Frenjo]

1 minute ago, malekas said:

I like my frames to have 4 useful abilities. Right now Limbo has 2, Stasis and Cataclysm.

 

Banish and Rift Surge are both clunky wastes of energy. I would like to see them tweaked, but DE will probably do the same thing they did with Mag and forget about them now that the rework is out.

That's my fear! At best I want a full reversion of banish and new changes to rift surge.

[Clonmac]

15 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Well, I don't get how it's working for some people, but for myself and a bunch of others in this very thread it isn't working.

Addendum: DE can you explain exactly whether it's bugged or not, or what else is going on?

What isn't working for you? Just saying it isn't working doesn't exactly help the situation. If it truly isn't working for you, then relaying some situations that you've thoroughly tested would go a long way toward helping the developers resolve it.

Back in my post that had steps 1-7, have you tried that and didn't received the same results I do? I have yet to come across a situation where Rift Surge didn't function in the way that I was expecting.

Computers aren't random no matter how random they appear, so if you feel that something is not working about Rift Surge, then you should be able to duplicate it no matter how obscure the cause of the bug may be.

[Frenjo]

Just now, Clonmac said:

What isn't working for you? Just saying it isn't working doesn't exactly help the situation. If it truly isn't working for you, then relaying some situations that you've thoroughly tested would go a long way toward helping the developers resolve it.

Back in my post that had steps 1-7, have you tried that and didn't received the same results I do? I have yet to come across a situation where Rift Surge didn't function in the way that I was expecting.

Computers aren't random no matter how random they appear, so if you feel that something is not working about Rift Surge, then you should be able to duplicate it no matter how obscure the cause of the bug may be.

I haven't even bothered and don't intend to use it again either way, so i'll leave that up to interested parties to figure out what's going on. Just like banish, it's firmly relegated to my useless abilities list.

[Clonmac]

3 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

That's my fear! At best I want a full reversion of banish and new changes to rift surge.

You want to be able to kill things without ever being able to die. You've made that abundantly clear.  

[Frenjo]

1 minute ago, Clonmac said:

You want to be able to kill things without ever being able to die. You've made that abundantly clear.  

No! Hence why I want limbo to be vulnerable to nullifiers, and want them to change rift walk to have a duration and energy cost again!

EDIT: Will be no less vulnerable than before.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Frenjo

[Spikey844]

Preaching to the choir mate. Lets hope DE listens.

[Clonmac]

1 minute ago, Frenjo said:

I haven't even bothered and don't intend to use it again either way, so i'll leave that up to interested parties to figure out what's going on. Just like banish, it's firmly relegated to my useless abilities list.

Which is exactly why I think the more likely scenario we have here is "I don't understand how it works and therefore I'm not going to use it".

[Frenjo]

Just now, Clonmac said:

Which is exactly why I think the more likely scenario we have here is "I don't understand how it works and therefore I'm not going to use it".

Think what you like, doesn't change the truth.

[Clonmac]

13 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Think what you like, doesn't change the truth.

I'm not thinking it, I'm just reading what you type. You've stated numerous times that Rift Surge is bugged and then you state that you don't use it enough to know whether it is bugged or not. To me that just sounds like the initial troubles anyone would go through when learning how to use a new gameplay mechanic...only you gave up before you learned it.

I'm not claiming it is or isn't bugged. From what I've experienced I haven't come across a bug. But, if you're going to claim it is bugged, it would be helpful if you were absolutely sure it is bugged and could explain how it is bugged. Otherwise you're just going to spread false rumors around the community.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Clonmac

[Frenjo]

Just now, Clonmac said:

I'm not thinking it, I'm just reading what you type. You've stated numerous times that Rift Surge is bugged and then you state that you don't use it enough to know whether it is bugged or not. To me that just sounds like the initial troubles anyone would go through when learning how to use a new gameplay mechanic...only you gave up before you learned it.

I've not bothered using it /because/ it is bugged.