Conclave mods in PvE

[Heckzu]

9 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

Honestly, I'd love if ALL of the PvE mods were balanced like PvP's are. It'd be a hell of a lot easier for DE to balance their game. Not to mention modding (particularly for weapons) would involve a lot more actual decision-making than it does now. I'd love to see the DPS calculators become obsolete and for modding to become more of a matter of complimenting one's own fighting style.

I'd love to see it too. If the game was balanced like Conclave, then PvE might actually be challenging and fun. But unfortunately that won't happen any time soon thanks to so many people unable to handle balance changes.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Heckzu

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Skaleek said:

15/30/15 is puncture but still rather balanced in the grand scheme. 25%/50%/25%. Would be a good candidate for conversion mods.

yup. On a sidenote, if DE ever Primes Tiberon, I hope they make it a no-crit no-status weapon with pure raw damage as the normal Tiberon is :3

[Skaleek]

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

yup. On a sidenote, if DE ever Primes Tiberon, I hope they make it a no-crit no-status weapon with pure raw damage as the normal Tiberon is :3

Agreed, too many weapons right now are crit or status. A raw damage burst rifle would be great. They always make primes high status though, don't they?

[Simmml]

4 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Tiberon is a Puncture weapon, you are thinking of Sybaris.

Yes ofc. Sorry. I ment to use the base Burston as example here

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Skaleek said:

Agreed, too many weapons right now are crit or status. A raw damage burst rifle would be great. They always make primes high status though, don't they?

Yes, though I would prefer if Tiberon had more raw damage, enough to be on par even with crit/status weapons, and some other gimmick, like inate 2.0 Punch Trough and probably faster reload speed and bigger clip.

Anyway, we are heading away from the main topic hahaha.

Honestly making PvP mods usable in PvE has no downsides. In fact, DE could add the Mobility stat to PvE and make Bulletjump mods buff Mobility instead of just bulletjump (FYI Mobility not only affects Bulletjump, it also affects how fast/far you roll and your general parkour speed)

Edited April 13, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Simmml]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

Yes, though I would prefer if Tiberon had more raw damage, enough to be on par even with crit/status weapons, and some other gimmick, like inate 2.0 Punch Trough and probably faster reload speed and bigger clip.

They are reballancing right now. We will see what they will do. Also:

Spoiler

http://imgur.com/a/Mfpts

 

TIBERON!

[KirukaChan]

41 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

You mean making mods convert damage (and add the type if it's missing) instead of adding damage. Like, instead of say, Infected Clip adding 90% Toxin damage it would convert around 30% of the weapons damage to Toxin. So if you have a weapon that deals 100 IPS, it would deal 70 IPS+30Toxin

Pretty much. With using conversions rather than additions, there wouldn't be much point to using a ton of IPS or elemental mods unless you're going for a jack-of-all-trades build rather than specializing, which in itself could be desirable in certain situations (fighting Corrupted or Sentients). But now you'd also have other options that would be viable additions to your weapon, like reload speed or magazine size. The +holster speed and +movement speed while aiming mods would probably find their way into most builds, too.

[Simmml]

I think an IPS conversion mod could (if we stay with the Burston because 10/10/10 IPS spread) change that to 5/20/5 for example

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

Pretty much. With using conversions rather than additions, there wouldn't be much point to using a ton of IPS or elemental mods unless you're going for a jack-of-all-trades build rather than specializing, which in itself could be desirable in certain situations (fighting Corrupted or Sentients). But now you'd also have other options that would be viable additions to your weapon, like reload speed or magazine size. The +holster speed and +movement speed while aiming mods would probably find their way into most builds, too.

And give DE a balanced platform from which to start rebalancing enemy scaling, as starting with enemies and then trying to balance our guns would lead to more problems.

[KirukaChan]

43 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

I'd love to see it too. If the game was balanced like Conclave, then PvE might actually be challenging and fun. But unfortunately that won't happen any time soon thanks to so many people unable to handle balance changes.

The real trick here is that all the required changes would have to roll out at once. Weapon balancing, mod balancing (including auras), enemy scaling balancing (armor in particular), possibly Warframe/pet balancing and mission balancing, too. Hell, even consumables would need a balance pass. It'd be a huge project, but the resulting game would be a lot more involved, both in-mission and out-of-mission.

Making more mods mutually exclusive would be good too. Look at reload/magazine/recoil mods for PvP weapons and mobility/EHP mods for PvP Warframes. All we've got going on for that right now in PvE are Riven mods (which are a whole other can of worms) and parkour mods, which I'm pretty sure are rarely used in any "pro" builds. Yet we've got stuff like Intensify, Transient Fortitude, Blind Rage and Power Drift all stacking with each other. And Streamline and Fleeting Expertise stacking with each other. Apparently, despite that, parkour mods being stacked would break the game.

[Nazrethim]

11 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

The real trick here is that all the required changes would have to roll out at once. Weapon balancing, mod balancing (including auras), enemy scaling balancing (armor in particular), possibly Warframe/pet balancing and mission balancing, too. Hell, even consumables would need a balance pass. It'd be a huge project, but the resulting game would be a lot more involved, both in-mission and out-of-mission.

True, it would be a big rebalancing update. I think consumables (which here roughly translates to "restores") would just need a 1min shared cooldown and for Auras, just make them not stack (not our auras, and not enemy auras) so instead of 4cps we get to see more diversity.

Quote

Making more mods mutually exclusive would be good too. Look at reload/magazine/recoil mods for PvP weapons and mobility/EHP mods for PvP Warframes. All we've got going on for that right now in PvE are Riven mods (which are a whole other can of worms) and parkour mods, which I'm pretty sure are rarely used in any "pro" builds. Yet we've got stuff like Intensify, Transient Fortitude, Blind Rage and Power Drift all stacking with each other. And Streamline and Fleeting Expertise stacking with each other. Apparently, despite that, parkour mods being stacked would break the game.

I think that Corrupted mods should make any other mod with it's stats mutually exclusive. To elaborate a bit, say you have Transient Fortitude (+Strenght -Duration), equiping it would make any other Duration or Strenght mod unable to be used (Blind Rage, Intensify, Continuity, Narrow Minded) with the exception of Drift mods (they being mutually exclusive within themselves so you can have only one of the seven active at any given time). That way corrupted mods become "power at a price" instead of "just stack this, this and this". At best you would be able to equip two corrupted mods (+power stats and -other power stats, like BlindRage [+str-effi] and Narrowminded [+duration-range] )

We would need more Corrupted mods to make all combinations of two stats of 4 possible, like +Duration -Effi etc etc

Edited April 13, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Simmml]

Well the point of introducing PvP mods would primarily be to give us access to the already existing interresting mechanincs. Yes the game needs rebalancing. badly. But for introducing these mods to PvE that step is not really necessary in my eyes.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Simmml said:

Well the point of introducing PvP mods would primarily be to give us access to the already existing interresting mechanincs. Yes the game needs rebalancing. badly. But for introducing these mods to PvE that step is not really necessary in my eyes.

True. I personally want the Conclave stances, they feel much better and natural than many PvE ones.

[Simmml]

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

True. I personally want the Conclave stances, they feel much better and natural than many PvE ones.

Stances and augment mods is what I am after. Fun cool new things they already have ready made and just need to remove the restrictions and add to the drop tables or shopping lists of the syndicates. 'We struggle to make enough content' <- remove the nonsensical restrictions on the nice content you already have!

[Nazrethim]

6 minutes ago, Simmml said:

Stances and augment mods is what I am after. Fun cool new things they already have ready made and just need to remove the restrictions and add to the drop tables or shopping lists of the syndicates. 'We struggle to make enough content' <- remove the nonsensical restrictions on the nice content you already have!

I don't mind the stances dropping, since they are rank 1 and easy to get anyway and the gunmods are random rewards from just playing so it's the same. The problem is on the Augments, as they are high end Syndicate rewards, adding them to droptables anywhere is the same as adding the other syndicate augments to droptables as well, adding them to the syndicates sounds good, though I would prefer if Conclave kept some incentive to be played besides just cosmetics, at least until DE gets around to adding a Conclave Syndicate Weapon (hopefully Twin Nikanas)

Edited April 13, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Simmml]

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I don't mind the stances dropping, since they are rank 1 and easy to get anyway and the gunmods are random rewards from just playing so it's the same. The problem is on the Augments, as they are high end Syndicate rewards, adding them to droptables anywhere is the same as adding the other syndicate augments to droptables as well, adding them to the syndicates sounds good, though I would prefer if Conclave kept some incentive to be played besides just cosmetics, at least until DE gets around to adding a Conclave Syndicate Weapon (hopefully Twin Nikanas)

The day they add Conclave Syndicate weapons is the day I stop playing this game. Like I stated in the very beginning: Less than 2% of people like conclave...

I see no issue with conclave only awarding visuals, honestly...

[Nazrethim]

1 minute ago, Simmml said:

The day they add Conclave Syndicate weapons is the day I stop playing this game. Like I stated in the very beginning: Less than 2% of people like conclave...

Well, it could go in two ways really: Like the SixSynds a built tradable weapon or like Simaris an untradable blueprint with platinum option on the market.

Also, where do you pull the 2% exactly?

1 minute ago, Simmml said:

I see no issue with conclave only awarding visuals, honestly...

Considering is the only skill-based challenging mode that can't be cheesed in the whole damn game, a more than visual reward would be welcome.

[Skaleek]

33 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Conclave stances, they feel much better and natural than many PvE ones.

Yes please. They're way more fluid. Not sure why this isnt already a thing.

[KirukaChan]

27 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

True, it would be a big rebalancing update. I think consumables (which here roughly translates to "restores") would just need a 1min shared cooldown and for Auras, just make them not stack (not our auras, and not enemy auras) so instead of 4cps we get to see more diversity.

I think that Corrupted mods should make any other mod with it's stats mutually exclusive. To elaborate a bit, say you have Transient Fortitude (+Strenght -Duration), equiping it would make any other Duration or Strenght mod unable to be used (Blind Rage, Intensify, Continuity, Narrow Minded) with the exception of Drift mods (they being mutually exclusive within themselves so you can have only one of the seven active at any given time). That way corrupted mods become "power at a price" instead of "just stack this, this and this"

Restores on a cooldown would be good (considering how our Air Supports right now are all weaker than Restores are, yet are on a bloody 10 minute cooldown and require rarer resources like Plastids to craft), but limiting the number we can carry into a mission is another important aspect. Right now we can carry 200 of the damn things. Really, any more than 5 would be overkill, especially considering that a full party could technically have access to 20 of each type.

Auras would need a complete overhaul. I think duplicates should stack (if nothing but to ensure that pub games still benefit from everyone's auras), but with diminishing returns. Each duplicate aura would give half of the previous one. Using CP as an example, the first would give the normal 30%, the second 15%, the third 7.5%, and the fourth 3.75% for a total of 56.25% armor reduction. Still very helpful, but all of a sudden a mix of auras might be more desirable. Although, with the overhaul of auras, CP and Shield Disruption would be some of the first for a complete rework. Things like Sprint Boost, Speed Holster, Enemy Radar and Ammo Scavenger auras are good examples of auras that could probably stay in as-is.

I quite like your view there on the power attribute mods. I could imagine a lot of folks going for just all-round improvement, though, via Stretch+Intensify+Continuity+Streamline (I know that's what I would do and just say nuts to the corrupted ones), so making those four mutually exclusive might be good too. It seems restrictive at first, but significantly less so when we look at the sheer number of mods in PvE, and how many more might be added. We have all of 8 standard mod slots, an aura and an Exilus to fill on our Frames.

35 minutes ago, Simmml said:

Well the point of introducing PvP mods would primarily be to give us access to the already existing interresting mechanincs. Yes the game needs rebalancing. badly. But for introducing these mods to PvE that step is not really necessary in my eyes.

Well, as it stands, the PvE mod scene is already a bloody mess. We've got mandatory mods like base damage and multishot, alongside trash mods like Warm Coat and the +15% status chance mods. Adding a bunch more mods to the pile will just make things even more cluttered and get even more people griping about all the useless (i.e. non-DPS-meta) mods in the game.

[Heckzu]

31 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Considering is the only skill-based challenging mode that can't be cheesed in the whole damn game, a more than visual reward would be welcome

I think making the Snowball skin and Teshin's dual swords + its holster a skin for all dual swords exclusive to the Conclave rewards store would be enough. They're some of the most desired items by the player base and the player base would probably bawl as not only would their addition to the Conclave store be completely justified, but they'd have no reasonable justification to make them obtainable outside of Conclave.

[Nazrethim]

29 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

Restores on a cooldown would be good (considering how our Air Supports right now are all weaker than Restores are, yet are on a bloody 10 minute cooldown and require rarer resources like Plastids to craft), but limiting the number we can carry into a mission is another important aspect. Right now we can carry 200 of the damn things. Really, any more than 5 would be overkill, especially considering that a full party could technically have access to 20 of each type.

Agreed. Also, I like the word "Bloody"

29 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

Auras would need a complete overhaul. I think duplicates should stack (if nothing but to ensure that pub games still benefit from everyone's auras), but with diminishing returns. Each duplicate aura would give half of the previous one. Using CP as an example, the first would give the normal 30%, the second 15%, the third 7.5%, and the fourth 3.75% for a total of 56.25% armor reduction. Still very helpful, but all of a sudden a mix of auras might be more desirable. Although, with the overhaul of auras, CP and Shield Disruption would be some of the first for a complete rework. Things like Sprint Boost, Speed Holster, Enemy Radar and Ammo Scavenger auras are good examples of auras that could probably stay in as-is.

Diminishing returns sound good too. I was thinking non-stacking because it's an easy solution (something DE is rather fond of) as well as something we actually got for a while (it was a bug, but holy hell what a nice bug)

29 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

I quite like your view there on the power attribute mods. I could imagine a lot of folks going for just all-round improvement, though, via Stretch+Intensify+Continuity+Streamline (I know that's what I would do and just say nuts to the corrupted ones), so making those four mutually exclusive might be good too. It seems restrictive at first, but significantly less so when we look at the sheer number of mods in PvE, and how many more might be added. We have all of 8 standard mod slots, an aura and an Exilus to fill on our Frames.

I don't think the +30% ones should be mutually exclusive, as they are not big deal anyway, they are often used to complement Corrupted mods, but with Corrupted mods making them unusable (as well as the counterstat to negate the negative effect) people stacking all 4 wouldn't be much of an issue.

29 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

Well, as it stands, the PvE mod scene is already a bloody mess. We've got mandatory mods like base damage and multishot, alongside trash mods like Warm Coat and the +15% status chance mods. Adding a bunch more mods to the pile will just make things even more cluttered and get even more people griping about all the useless (i.e. non-DPS-meta) mods in the game.

Yeah, like it happens with SpringLoaded Broadhead, the mod is amaizing in concept and for pvp, but sadly falls short in pve.

 

18 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

I think making the Snowball skin and Teshin's dual swords + its holster a skin for all dual swords exclusive to the Conclave rewards store would be enough. They're some of the most desired items by the player base and the player base would probably bawl as not only would their addition to the Conclave store be completely justified, but they'd have no reasonable justification to make them obtainable outside of Conclave.

Honestly the snowball skin should have been a market option, rather than a conclave one. The dual Nikanas should be implemented either as their own weapon or the wakizashi added to Teshin's shop table as a Warframe Auxiliary attachment with the gimmick that it uses default nikana appearance or mimics the appearance of a current equiped nikana (or has the same cosmetic options as the nikana family). Could also be a "Conclave Tournament" reward for the very bests of an hypotetical tournament, a small cosmetic nikana to display their martial prowess.

A Conclave weapon wouldn't be different than regular Simulor or any of the other Syndicate weapons, you either work for it or trade/buy it, considering syndicates have a cap of 135k standing and Conclave standing is arguably easy to max out it wouldn't be a problem really.

[TheChaotic1]

Honestly I say keep them as only obtained through conclave, then they would all sell for like 15-25 plat, would be a good source of income for people who don't want to do syndicate missions all the time

[Simmml]

2 minutes ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Honestly I say keep them as only obtained through conclave, then they would all sell for like 15-25 plat, would be a good source of income for people who don't want to do syndicate missions all the time

And force everyone else to play this broken, hated game mode. I don't think that would be very good...

[TheChaotic1]

Just now, Simmml said:

And force everyone else to play this broken, hated game mode. I don't think that would be very good...

1. They put octavia in the derelict because it was underused, do you really think they wouldn't choose the easiest way to get people to play conclave which they have been trying to do for years?

2. No one would be forced, anyone who would actually be looking for these mods would be far enough in the game to be able to trade for them.

[Simmml]

2 minutes ago, TheChaotic1 said:

1. They put octavia in the derelict because it was underused, do you really think they wouldn't choose the easiest way to get people to play conclave which they have been trying to do for years?

2. No one would be forced, anyone who would actually be looking for these mods would be far enough in the game to be able to trade for them.

In principal it's ok to have them stay conclave exclusive rewards that are usable in PvE. It's a compromise I am willing to make if all else fails.

However I just think back to Conclave event 3 in a row... People were... "pleased"   /s

Edited April 13, 2017 by Simmml