Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[Ardhanarishvara]

17 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Say what you want but I've been able to take this build as deep as 90 minutes solo in a Mot Survival with Zenurik as my focus school. You keep talking about how you can tank with Oberon in your sorties, you'll get 1 shot by a crewman in the content I spend my time in and is why I place more value on constant CC than you do evidently.

I spend most my playtime in Mot. I speak from an endless perspective. Be stuck in casting animation with an ability with mediocre range = death.

btw, 115% duration is poor? I have a 23 second HG and my energy drain on my Renewal is only .52. Duration is only good for 2 things on Oberon: Keeping up his HG and the timer on his Iron Renewal buff AFTER YOU toggle of renewal, you can keep Iron Renewal going forever so long as you have the energy to do so. So the difference between my efficiency build and your duration build is that your HG lasts for 20 more seconds, but your abilities are much more expensive to cast and the HG won't ever even reach half that duration in Mot (or in any corrupted/corpus mission, for that matter) due to the existence of Nullifiers.

This brings to light a completely different issue.

Why are you playing on Mot? There's nothing to gain there but Argon Crystals, and you're gonna lose half of them by tomorrow anyhow. I doubt you'd be doing it for leveling, because Akkad's better for that. You're putting yourself into a situation on purpose that has no real value to the rest of the game as a whole, and then talking about how Oberon plays out from that perspective. Mot strikes me as somewhere you go to challenge yourself by breaking the game as much as possible when you've got nothing left to do, rather than somewhere you go to actually achieve something.

Why are you using Zenurik on a channeling warframe? If you want to survive and not have to rely on Rage, you use Naramon, using a slide attack build with an Entropy or Blight-enabled primary or secondary, preferably one that fires rapidly so you can quickly pop nullifier bubbles at a distance. If you want to damage, you use Madurai, as that'll increase the damage output of Smite by a significant margin.

Your extreme power range is what's making it so that your hallowed ground is easily accessible by Nullifiers, and yet your justification is only Nullifier deep.

Your Renewal may be at a low cost, but that's ONLY FOR YOU. Your teammates cost just as much as ever, but by gimping yourself on power strength, you're ensuring that you're spending way more time actually healing them, which in turn only increases the drain on your energy pool that much more strongly, never mind the fact that they're taking far more damage.

EDIT: Actually, is Mot a focus farm?

Edited May 1, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

On 4/28/2017 at 9:59 PM, MarrikBroom said:

Instead of trying to keep with Kubrow/Kavat/Helminth and or 'random wildlife' as Oberon's passive... let's look at Oberon Himself. He is the Paladin. He is in the Paladin Pack. He came with a very Knightly weapon (the Magistar.) 

So here's what I propose:

Give Oberon a passive that combines Rage, and Guardian Derision. Given how Renewal is an aura that heals this would give Oberon an interesting role dynamic in that he'll WANT to jump into a crowd, pull out his melee, and block. This keeps fire off of squishy frames like Nova, Mag, Banshee, etc and gives Oberon instant energy to cast his other abilities AND get people on his hallowed ground.

Fantastic suggestion imo. I've been running guardian derision and rage on Oberon for the past week when testing him and found it to be a fairly good combo but also very limiting as far as build versatility goes ( which is bad to me as versatility should be somewhat of a staple for a "jack of all trades" frame). 

Honestly though, why not include this with his current passive or previous passive. As it stands, I hardly notice the companion buff (especially in higher level content) and at least the mobs of kurbows/kavats attacking their owners was kinda cool if a bit niche and impractical since the effect wasn't permanent. I understand DE's motives for not wanting to risk balancing issues, but currently, anything to make the frame stand out among others is what I think they should prioritize.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Oni_Spartan4

[Ardhanarishvara]

That would be a great passive, although if it's anything like Equinox I would expect it to be horribly watered down compared to the fully ranked iterations of either mod. Like the Guardian Derision effect only reaching 1 meter at best, or the Rage having 5% efficiency, which would just be such a massive disappointment for me while also not actually doing much of anything to keep me from using both mods anyways - if anything it'd just be more ubiquitous to use them because they'd likely stack on to the actual mods, and then where would the whole pet factor go?

Edited May 1, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara

[Music4Therapy]

33 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

This brings to light a completely different issue.

Why are you playing on Mot? There's nothing to gain there but Argon Crystals, and you're gonna lose half of them by tomorrow anyhow. I doubt you'd be doing it for leveling, because Akkad's better for that. You're putting yourself into a situation on purpose that has no real value to the rest of the game as a whole, and then talking about how Oberon plays out from that perspective. Mot strikes me as somewhere you go to challenge yourself by breaking the game as much as possible when you've got nothing left to do, rather than somewhere you go to actually achieve something.

I already have all the primed mods, weapons, frames, etc... that I'd ever want. The only thing that keeps me coming back to this game is its amazing gameplay, I try playing another game and I find myself wishing I could bullet jump lmao. I also like a challenge, I'm a huge Demon/Dark Souls fan. Which is what got me to like Oberon in the first place. Oh, people say this guy is bad? I'm going to hop into the biggest, baddest content and wreck S#&$ with em. To my surprise, he was actually a solid frame and I grew to really like him over the past 2 years. AoE CC that ignores LoS and can be cast mid bullet jump? Count me in! Great panic button. I like having that feeling that if I make a mistake I will die, it makes the game (and all games, really) very thrilling to me.

Quote

Why are you using Zenurik on a channeling warframe? If you want to survive and not have to rely on Rage, you use Naramon, using a slide attack build with an Entropy or Blight-enabled primary or secondary, preferably one that fires rapidly so you can quickly pop nullifier bubbles at a distance. If you want to damage, you use Madurai, as that'll increase the damage output of Smite by a significant margin.

I only have Zenurik and Naramon unlocked, and I hardly benefit from Zenurik at all as Oberon admittedly. That said, I refuse to use Naramon because it is so broken, cheesy, and will likely be removed when focus schools "get the sledge hammer." I believe it and the removal of towers killed endurance runs for most players, it used to be an accomplishment being able to last over 60 minutes in a T4S, now anyone and their mom can go 2hrs+ with Naramon. Trivialized the game and made it feel less rewarding overall. The gameplay is what keeps me coming back though.

Quote

Your extreme power range is what's making it so that your hallowed ground is easily accessible by Nullifiers, and yet your justification is only Nullifier deep.

My power range is also so that Reckoning has more reach. Being able to buy time to defend a point/revive a teammate/grab life support is very important and I find Reckoning with this much range is able to do so sufficiently.

Quote

Your Renewal may be at a low cost, but that's ONLY FOR YOU. Your teammates cost just as much as ever, but by gimping yourself on power strength, you're ensuring that you're spending way more time actually healing them, which in turn only increases the drain on your energy pool that much more strongly, never mind the fact that they're taking far more damage.

I have no energy problems whatsoever with my current build, though I admittedly haven't raided with Oberon yet nor have I gotten the chance to see what that whole Oberon/Shadows of the Dead thing is about. The issue I have is that normally having max efficiency is enough to do the trick, I love casting my abilities so efficiency has always been a preference of mine. The problem I'm having is, max efficiency isn't enough for Oberon. I don't want to sacrifice Range or Efficiency for Strength when those stats help me avoid being hit in the first place, and if I get rid of Primed Continuity I'm in the negative for duration. I'm not going to cut out Phoenix Renewal or Vitality. So that leaves Natural Talent, and having a 50% longer cast time isn't worth 60(with intensify) or 110 armor (with TF) to me. He needs Rage. With Rage, I find that I have no issues at all doing what I want when I want even without Primed Flow, again I don't just run around mashing 4. Its just crazy to me that he needs everything and that a frame so energy hungry needs so many stats. Like, its not even like he has some amazing top tier kit.. nothing justifies how energy hungry he is imo. The only other frame I use Rage on is Wukong lol, every other frame 130%-170% is enough to cut it. Hell, some frames I use despite my playstyle even have negative efficiency. The fact he doesn't have a stat that he can just trash is limiting his potential, imo. He has trouble uses Corrupted mods imo.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Chipputer]

44 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

As someone that spends the majority of his game time in Mot

Don't care where you spend your time, the fundamentals of the frame are the same. The only difference is how powerful the enemies approaching you are and literally any frame will have to shift their focus to CC and survivability in that situation.

46 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

with the use of Zenurik (naramon is so broken)

So is Zenurik. I use it, too, but to call Naramon broken in the same breath as mentioning Zenurik is quite silly, but that's another topic, entirely.

47 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

don't run into energy problems until I can no longer rely on Rage because 1 shot = death

If you're using Zenurik this shouldn't ever be the case. 4 energy/sec is more than enough to keep you juiced in almost every situation you can imagine, minus being bombarded with energy leeches. Turn off Renewal, find cover, recover for a bit, come back out with your guns loaded.

48 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

No other frame in the game needs every stat including survivability + the utility of Rage/Natural Talent.

It's interesting that you say "need" here, then immediately follow it up with:

49 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Are Rage and Natural Talent required? No

He either needs it or he doesn't. You can't have it both ways. Quite frankly, to say that Oberon needs Natural Talent shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how to properly use the frame (or any frame, for that matter).

50 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

but his cast times (particularly on Reckoning) are long as hell and will result in him dying if he is stuck in them for too long

Smite: 1 handed cast. You can literally be shooting during the animation. I use it all the time while reloading.
Hallowed Ground: Quick bowling motion. Stop using it in front of hordes of enemies and you won't die.
Renewal: It's literally half as long as it used to be. Jump in the air and aim glide to stay mobile while casting it to increase survivability.
Reckoning: Jump in the air and aim glide while casting. Everything near you is immediately picked up and disabled for the entire duration, meaning they aren't a threat.

These are tricks that you learn with literally any other frame. This is a similar issue to people who bring up Mesa getting killed while using Peacemaker because they're not using cover effectively and think that standing in the middle of a horde of 50 enemies is perfectly fine to do. The issue is with your play style. The mod helps you adjust to your own play style. Recognize the difference between the frame needing it and the player needing it.

53 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Oberon. Needs. Everything. And thats the problem with his current kit

But that isn't a problem. He's a frame that excels in adaptability. You need everything in order to adapt properly. I'm running 106% duration, 175% efficiency, 145% range, and 200% power strength, right now. Occasionally I'll use Growing Power so I can reach 225% strength. I'm capable of adjusting my playstyle to almost any situation the game can throw at me, minus when the game decides 15 nullifiers with 3 corpus techs under each bubble is an appropriate show of force (but literally any frame would struggle with that situation).

I can buff my own armor for 20 seconds at the cost of less than 50 energy. By the time that I need to reapply that buff I've already killed enough enemies, or had Zenurk tick up enough, that my energy has fully replenished.
I can chokepoint enemies hardcore with my Hallowed Ground. By merely backing away from it (and maybe applying a second one for personal use) I can allow the Radiation effect to properly work, causing effective CC.
I can top up health whenever we have a quiet moment. Emergency situations can call for a few spam casts to get the initial high heal-burst, instead of channeling, but channeling it still restores 80 to 90 health per second, depending on if Growing Power is active.
I can CC enemies both on the go and when holding still by tapping the 4 key at appropriate times. Jumping away from the enemies that I've hit with Reckoning causes them to not target myself, meaning I've effectively neutralized a wide range of enemies by simply staying mobile (something literally every frame in the game needs to do, minus frames built specifically for defense missions).
I can knock down, and CC, priority targets for a pittance, while reloading, while shooting at them, by tapping my 1 key.

You name a situation, I have an answer for it. That's what Oberon is good at. That's what Oberon should be built for.

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

8 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

That would be a great passive, although if it's anything like Equinox I would expect it to be horribly watered down compared to the fully ranked iterations of either mod. Like the Guardian Derision effect only reaching 1 meter at best, or the Rage having 5% efficiency, which would just be such a massive disappointment for me while also not actually doing much of anything to keep me from using both mods anyways - if anything it'd just be more ubiquitous to use them because they'd likely stack on to the actual mods, and then where would the whole pet factor go?

It's upsetting to me that you're most likely very correct about the watering down. Maybe the range on the "passive guardian derision" scaled with range the same way his hallowed ground does but could not be reduced past 10m. (basically just so it could cover, yet not exceed, the entirety of hallowed ground and give more of a reason to build for range and battle on the carpet and not penalize the player for negative range...even though I'm more in favor of HG being an aura ability anyway but I digress) that way players could still run with guardian derision so that it stacked to a fairly far range of aggro but in doing so could risk being one shotted and therefore replace it with a more important damage mod, point is, it's give the player more options. 

As far as rage... you're probably right that DE would water that down way too heavily to make a difference. But if they just kept it at 30% that would be fine by me, and again stacking the two would just give the players more options for a renewal build but heck what do I know about "balancing"

[Chipputer]

4 minutes ago, Oni_Spartan4 said:

stacking the two would just give the players more options for a renewal build

Stacking the two would give more options?

I thought the whole point was that using Rage was limiting your options, to begin with?

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

13 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Stacking the two would give more options?

I thought the whole point was that using Rage was limiting your options, to begin with?

Thats my point, by having these qualities as a combined passive (that could stack with mods) players wouldn't need to worry about those mods being "mandatory" to their build, just a nice addition so they could focus on other moding combinations. If a player wanted to include 'rage' or 'guardian derision' they still could and receive considerable benefits from them and the option to build around them. 

 

Though I think I see your point, "if i got a free buff for my mods, why wouldn't I maximize that buff? That doesn't solve a problem that just makes an existing problem worse" But I would argue that that exact point helps strengthen mine. Any Oberon build you make requires you to sacrifice something (be it power strength, range, efficiency etc.) But the suggested passive instead gives the player more freedom to decide weather they want to make "the ultimate rage aggro build" or just use the passive as a bonus and add a mod like energy conversion instead. I appreciate your criticism however 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Oni_Spartan4

[Music4Therapy]

35 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

He either needs it or he doesn't. You can't have it both ways. Quite frankly, to say that Oberon needs Natural Talent shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how to properly use the frame (or any frame, for that matter).

-snip-

You name a situation, I have an answer for it. That's what Oberon is good at. That's what Oberon should be built for.

I am assuming we are both running Stretch + Primed Continuity + Fleeting Expertise/Streamline and your value of 106% duration is a typo.

That said, the rest of my build consists of:

Cunning Drift, Vitality, Rage, Phoenix Renewal, and lastly Natural Talent.

 

First off, I hate Rage as a mod. The only frame I use it on is Wukong aside from Oberon. Anything that requires me to be shot to take effect I am not a fan of unless I have some sort of invincibility mechanic working in my favor. That said, if I had to get rid of any of those mods right now in favor of power strength it would be Natural Talent. That said, I wouldn't use Blind Rage because that is too big of a hit to my efficiency and I wouldn't want to use Intensify or Transient Fortitude because I'd rather have smoother animations than 60 (intensify) or 110 (TF) armor and 20/hps, which won't save me from 1 shots... but 50% faster cast times could potentially. I would consider throwing on power strength if it didn't make smite damage split into more projectiles or Reckoning stripped a higher % of armor at base. If Oberon was given an energy mechanic, I'd trade out out Rage, Natural Talent, etc... for more Str so that I can crank up that armor stripping since I'd have multiple slots to work with. It just doesn't feel right using max efficiency and Rage on a frame that wants so much. I feel like you avoided what I said about not knowing of any other frames need str/rng/dur/eff and survivabiliy. All the frames with the exception of Oberon iirc can trash atleast 1-2 if not 3 of those. Rather, you poked at the Natural Talent/Rage hole in the argument.

 

Quote

So is Zenurik. I use it, too, but to call Naramon broken in the same breath as mentioning Zenurik is quite silly, but that's another topic, entirely.

Naramon being able to continue providing invisibility while under a nullifier bubble would be like if Zenurik allowed you to continue gaining energy during channeled abilities or completely disabled the drain effect of Energy Leech Eximus. It also removes any and all threat there is to being in melee range in the first place while also multiplying all melee damage dealt by a factor of 8. Its broken, makes the game trivial, and it along with the removal of towers killed endurance missions. Lasting over an hour solo in T4S used to be an accomplishment, now anyone can go 2hrs+ just by having Naramon and some crit. Zenurik is very powerful, but nowhere *NEAR* the levels of broken Naramon touches.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Music4Therapy]

Rage is cancer. Being shot shouldn't be Oberon source of energy. This suggestion is terrible and is literally the opposite of scaling because it would be a passive that would gradually become more and more useless the higher the level the enemies become. Your focus should be avoiding hits in the first place, parkour 2.0 exists.

 

EDIT: He isn't even a tank, he's a frontline support. He doesn't scale off of armor like real tanks do. ala Chroma's Vex Armor, Valkyr's War Cry, Rhino's Iron Skin, Frost's Bubble, etc......

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

24 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Rage is cancer. Being shot shouldn't be Oberon source of energy. This suggestion is terrible and is literally the opposite of scaling because it would be a passive that would gradually become more and more useless the higher the level the enemies become. Your focus should be avoiding hits in the first place, parkour 2.0 exists.

 

EDIT: He isn't even a tank, he's a frontline support. He doesn't scale off of armor like real tanks do. ala Chroma's Vex Armor, Valkyr's War Cry, Rhino's Iron Skin, Frost's Bubble, etc......

I definitely agree that he needs an alternative way of regaining energy, as well as a bit of an armor buff or form of survivability as a paladin is supposed to be able to tank, which is why I think rage coupled with renewal (and iron renewal) is on paper a very good idea, and a non "cancerous" passive (and currently in game feasible until around level 60 in my experience with rage+guardian derision). 

Edit: also, as far as the parkour 2.0 comment, I do think that avoiding damage should be a priority, but looking at Oberon's kit we can see that he has a stationary ability, hallowed ground, which encourages staying still and taking damage. Now, if that were an aura I might have a different opinion, but seeing as one is given benefits for standing on hallowed ground and remaining stationary, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to tank.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Oni_Spartan4
Typo

[Ardhanarishvara]

7 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Rage is cancer. Being shot shouldn't be Oberon source of energy. This suggestion is terrible and is literally the opposite of scaling because it would be a passive that would gradually become more and more useless the higher the level the enemies become. Your focus should be avoiding hits in the first place, parkour 2.0 exists.

 

EDIT: He isn't even a tank, he's a frontline support. He doesn't scale off of armor like real tanks do. ala Chroma's Vex Armor, Valkyr's War Cry, Rhino's Iron Skin, Frost's Bubble, etc......

You're going to get shot at. This is not something that you can avoid. It is going to happen. You're gonna be in the wrong place at the wrong time when a rocket goes off, or you're gonna be subject to a venomous eximus aura, or a mutalist carrier you didn't notice is going to spray toxin all over the place.

And, since you're going to be so blunt, so will I. You're wrong. He is very much a tank right now. Rhino's Iron Skin vanishes instantly at higher levels. Frost's bubble explodes instantly at higher levels. Valkyr's warcry is nice, but the force of diminishing returns means that even with it on, she'll only take half as much damage as Oberon, without a passive health regen AS she's taking damage, only the hope that she'll be able to hit 4 fast enough and will cast quickly enough to be able to recover. Same thing with Chroma. You are putting way too much value on what armour can do beyond a certain point. It doesn't matter if my Valkyr literally has 2000+ armour after Warcry, she's still only taking half as much damage as Oberon is, as I have shown the numbers on earlier in the thread around pages 50-55 thereabouts.

You are not putting as much value on health regen as you ought to be, likely because yours isn't high enough to actually make the same kind of difference as mine might. The proof exists that Oberon is able to survive damage as well as or better than Valkyr outside of Hysteria. Just because you're choosing to ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My build doesn't even have Blind Rage or Transient Fortitude, and it's STILL able to survive higher level enemy encounters, purely because his regen and armour makes him that much more difficult to kill.

[Music4Therapy]

37 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

You're going to get shot at. This is not something that you can avoid. It is going to happen. You're gonna be in the wrong place at the wrong time when a rocket goes off, or you're gonna be subject to a venomous eximus aura, or a mutalist carrier you didn't notice is going to spray toxin all over the place.

I agree, it isn't something you should rely on though. Consistency is key.

 

Quote

And, since you're going to be so blunt, so will I.

Good, as long is we're being constructive right? Straight to the point.

Quote

You're wrong. He is very much a tank right now.

He can take a hit, but he is a frontline support. Unlike Rhino/Frost/Valkyr/Chroma, he doesn't scale off of armor while they all do. Rhino's Iron Skin, Frost's Bubble, Valkyr's Warcry, and Chroma's Vex Armor is what allows them to tank. Oberon, instead of turning into a tank, turns into a durable frontline support. Which isn't a bad thing, I really like the niche.

Quote

Rhino's Iron Skin vanishes instantly at higher levels.

Not if you know how to take advantage of the 3 second window of i-frames. I've taken Rhino a couple hours solo into Mot survival (again, never Naramon) and was able to withstand heavy fire. The key is refreshing your Iron Skin with Iron Shrapnel and soaking the damage while you are invincible, with max efficiency+Zenurik+Natural Talent the only time he is open to damage is inbetween refreshes of Iron Skin, which is extremely fast with Natural Talent. Helps that refreshes Iron Skin ragdolls everything within 25m with my build too. 

Quote

Frost's bubble explodes instantly at higher levels.

Same thing as Rhino's Iron Skin, but stacks. It has a 4 seconds of i-frames and stacks with itself. It, like Rhino, scales infinitely when utilized properly and is why endless Frost players run with negative power strength builds with emphasis on efficiency (for bubble stacking), range (for bubble size and Ice Wave Impedance), and duration (the time Ice Wave Impedance/Avalanche lasts)

Quote

Valkyr's warcry is nice, but the force of diminishing returns means that even with it on, she'll only take half as much damage as Oberon, without a passive health regen AS she's taking damage, only the hope that she'll be able to hit 4 fast enough and will cast quickly enough to be able to recover.

"only take half as much damage as Oberon"--- Oberon's hp regen is nice but by no means does it make him a tank. Valkyr can place Life Strike on her melee or use hirudo, combined with the Attack Speed from Warcry and the hyperarmor from most top tier melees, nothing will stop her from staying topped up in Health for a long time so it will take her much longer to fall off than it will Oberon, who lacks i-frames thus isn't an effective tank. She also has i-frames (a common theme among tanks, as you can see) via her 4. Inaros is the same, his 2 gives him i-frames. Wukong's Defy is loaded with i-frames.

Quote

Same thing with Chroma.

Chroma is the next rework, don't be surprised if he too get i-frames.

That said, lets pretend Oberon has 1000 armor after all is said and done between buffs and whatnot.

Cold Chroma has anywhere between 12k-20k Armor depending on how crazy the Chroma player wants to get with the armor/str stacking. Again, he will fall off WAYYYYYY later than Oberon but won't last as long as a properly player Valkyr or Rhino due to the fact he lacks i-frames in his kit.

Quote

You are putting way too much value on what armour can do beyond a certain point.

 

No, I'm really not. I've mentioned the term "i-frames" many times because that is what allows you to take damage consistently without being in harm's way.

 

Quote

It doesn't matter if my Valkyr literally has 2000+ armour after Warcry, she's still only taking half as much damage as Oberon is, as I have shown the numbers on earlier in the thread around pages 50-55 thereabouts. You are not putting as much value on health regen as you ought to be, likely because yours isn't high enough to actually make the same kind of difference as mine might.

"She's still only taking half as much damage as Oberon" "not putting as much value on health regen"

Lets ignore the fact you tried poking holes in my build (I've tested many different mod setups) and lets instead focus on the fact that you think Oberon's health regen makes up for the fact "Valkyr takes half as much damage" You know Life Strike exists right? And that Life Steal will heal more than your 80 hp/s? Oberon doesn't have nearly as much EHP as true tanks.

 

Quote

The proof exists that Oberon is able to survive damage as well as or better than Valkyr outside of Hysteria. Just because you're choosing to ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My build doesn't even have Blind Rage or Transient Fortitude, and it's STILL able to survive higher level enemy encounters, purely because his regen and armour makes him that much more difficult to kill.

I'm not choosing to ignore it, it flat out doesn't exist. Him having 350-600 armor after Iron Renewal and some health regen doesn't make him a tank. Durable? Yes. Tank? Look at Chroma's 12k-20k armor, that is a tank. Wukong? Tank. Valkyr? Tank. All of which don't have hp regen, but like every other frame in the game can make use of Life Strike. Thats why I am against him using Rage and should instead generate energy through the use of his amazing abilities which all proc statuses and whatnot.

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

8 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Thats why I am against him using Rage and should instead generate energy through the use of his amazing abilities which all proc statuses and whatnot.

 

I agree to an extent. I don't think rage should be "the end all for Oberon's energy problem" but i think it is a good bonus supplement. He cannot tank as effectively as most tank frames, you're absolutely correct, but this still does not solve my previous point in that one of his primary abilities forces you to hold a position. Given this factor, there is no reasonable way to avoid taking damage without abandoning hallowed ground, and thus, a passive which allows you to draw enemies to the position you are occupying while absorbing their damage (contributing to your health regen) is very beneficial to Oberon's current playstyle. Personally I don't think it's enough however (and that's not "getting an inch and asking for a mile") because of the exact point you made. Taking damage is by no means rational (as it puts you in the face of danger) but it is reliable, as Ardhanarishvara points out. I absolutely agree that it shouldn't be the only source of energy regeneration he has though, and capitalizing on hallowed grounds damage/procs will only help this passive (since as stated previously, you're drawing enemies to your location). I appreciate your defence of opinion, you bring up very good points.

[Ardhanarishvara]

28 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

I agree, it isn't something you should rely on though. Consistency is key.

Good, as long is we're being constructive right? Straight to the point.

He can take a hit, but he is a frontline support. Unlike Rhino/Frost/Valkyr/Chroma, he doesn't scale off of armor while they all do. Rhino's Iron Skin, Frost's Bubble, Valkyr's Warcry, and Chroma's Vex Armor is what allows them to tank. Oberon, instead of turning into a tank, turns into a durable frontline support. Which isn't a bad thing, I really like the niche.

Not if you know how to take advantage of the 3 second window of i-frames. I've taken Rhino a couple hours solo into Mot survival (again, never Naramon) and was able to withstand heavy fire. The key is refreshing your Iron Skin with Iron Shrapnel and soaking the damage while you are invincible, with max efficiency+Zenurik the only time he is open to damage is inbetween refreshes of Iron Skin. 

Same thing as Rhino's Iron Skin, but stacks. It has a 4 seconds of i-frames and stacks with itself. It, like Rhino, scales infinitely when utilized properly and is why endless Frost players run with negative power strength builds with emphasis on efficiency (for bubble stacking), range (for bubble size and Ice Wave Impedance), and duration (the time Ice Wave Impedance/Avalanche lasts)

"only take half as much damage as Oberon"--- Oberon's hp regen is nice but by no means does it make him a tank. Valkyr can place Life Strike on her melee or use hirudo, combined with the Attack Speed from Warcry and the hyperarmor from most top tier melees, nothing will stop her from staying topped up in Health for a long time so it will take her much longer to fall off than it will Oberon, who lacks i-frames thus isn't an effective tank. She also has i-frames (a common theme among tanks, as you can see) via her 4. Inaros is the same, his 2 gives him i-frames. Wukong's Defy is loaded with i-frames.

Chroma is the next rework, don't be surprised if he too get i-frames.

That said, lets pretend Oberon has 1000 armor after all is said and done between buffs and whatnot.

Cold Chroma has anywhere between 12k-20k Armor depending on how crazy the Chroma player wants to get with the armor/str stacking. Again, he will fall off WAYYYYYY later than Oberon but won't last as long as a properly player Valkyr or Rhino due to the fact he lacks i-frames in his kit.

No, I'm really not. I've mentioned the term "i-frames" many times because that is what allows you to take damage consistently without being in harm's way.

"She's still only taking half as much damage as Oberon" "not putting as much value on health regen"

Lets ignore the fact you tried poking holes in my build (I've tested many different mod setups) and lets instead focus on the fact that you think Oberon's health regen makes up for the fact "Valkyr takes half as much damage" You know Life Strike exists right? And that Life Steal will heal more than your 80 hp/s? Oberon doesn't have nearly as much EHP as true tanks.

I'm not choosing to ignore it, it flat out doesn't exist. Him having 350-600 armor after Iron Renewal and some health regen doesn't make him a tank. Durable? Yes. Tank? Look at Chroma's 12k-20k armor, that is a tank. Wukong? Tank. Valkyr? Tank. All of which don't have hp regen, but like every other frame in the game can make use of Life Strike.

1: Oberon isn't incapable of using Life Strike, it's just nice that he doesn't have to rely on it as much as other 'frames might have to just to stay alive. In fact, by using Vaykor Sydon and blocking, I'm giving myself an 85% damage reduction on top of my armour and health regen, followed directly by a radial blind that scales with reach. As many videos have shown, that's more than enough to keep him alive and his energy up even when up against higher level enemies. Potato, potato.

2: Enemies are affected by your 4 the moment you cast it - THERE'S your i-frames. Suddenly nobody's shooting at you anymore, and by the time they've stood back up, your health is full again, as is your energy from having been shot at, plus half of them are going to be targeting each other giving you plenty of time to maneuver into a more advantageous position and pick them off.

3. Frost isn't a tank any more than Volt is. He's a point defender, and is damn good at his job, but will melt the instant he takes one step outside of his bubble. LIMBO is more of a tank than Frost is.

4. Those holy i-frames you exalt so heavily are, again, worthless. Their scaling is negligible. They can take a few hits, but the end result is that it only takes slightly more than just that many hits to undo them, and the moment they run out, you are going to die. Painfully. Because I have yet to meet a Rhino that does not choose him just so he can stand around like a fool, and good luck pulling off the role of a "tank" if you're jumping around and letting the enemies target your teammates.

EDIT: I have realized why people tend to go cold with Chroma. Vex stacks with Elemental Ward, doesn't it? I apologize for the slander and hostility.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara
Apology.

[Iccotak]

Skip to around 1:20:00 into the video. Xenogelion is a long time Oberon main and gives specifics into why he loves the Oberon rework.
 

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Iccotak

[Music4Therapy]

15 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

1: Oberon isn't incapable of using Life Strike, it's just nice that he doesn't have to rely on it as much as other 'frames might have to just to stay alive. In fact, by using Vaykor Sydon and blocking, I'm giving myself an 85% damage reduction on top of my armour and health regen, followed directly by a radial blind that scales with reach. As many videos have shown, that's more than enough to keep him alive and his energy up even when up against higher level enemies. Potato, potato.

If Oberon being able to block and regenerate health makes him a tank, then Volt is the tank god. Blocking doesn't block attacks from the sides or behind, just like Volt's Riot Shield. But, Volt's Riot Shield prevents 100% of all damage from the frame and he can p much instantly restore his shield and get maximum overshields vs Capacitance. With shield gating being a thing in the future, I guess this makes him god of tanks?

 

Quote

2: Enemies are affected by your 4 the moment you cast it - THERE'S your i-frames. Suddenly nobody's shooting at you anymore, and by the time they've stood back up, your health is full again, as is your energy from having been shot at, plus half of them are going to be targeting each other giving you plenty of time to maneuver into a more advantageous position and pick them off.

i-frames is you have complete invincibility, Oberon doesn't have that. To your point, too bad Reckoning has mediocre range and the CC doesn't last long at all. Plus, without max efficiency you likely are dropping ~100-40 energy per Reckoning.

 

Quote

3. Frost isn't a tank any more than Volt is. He's a point defender, and is damn good at his job, but will melt the instant he takes one step outside of his bubble. LIMBO is more of a tank than Frost is.

I'll give you this, I should have clarified I was referring to the bubble's ability to take damage... not Frost's.

Quote

4. Those holy i-frames you exalt so heavily are, again, worthless. Their scaling is negligible. They can take a few hits, but the end result is that it only takes slightly more than just that many hits to undo them, and the moment they run out, you are going to die. Painfully. Because I have yet to meet a Rhino that does not choose him just so he can stand around like a fool, and good luck pulling off the role of a "tank" if you're jumping around and letting the enemies target your teammates.

Sounds like you've played with some terrible Rhino's. The ability is refreshable, I can recast the Iron Skin as needed very often due to max efficiency + zenurik, and safely due to having 250% range and it ragdolling everyone within 25m of me whenever I refresh it. Again, I've gone 2hrs solo in Mot as Zenurik Rhino.

 

Quote

6. At this point, you are flat out deluding yourself, misrepresenting Chroma's capabilities to everyone else here, and lying straight to my face. "Chroma's 12-20k armor" you say. It takes every single power strength mod under the sun, plus a maxed out steel fiber, plus armored agility, to even reach 10.9k, at the absolute maximum. Good luck doing anything else between the absurdly low duration, absurdly high cost, and not much else.

Math by Iheartscones:

Quote

 

Chroma with all 4 power mods, Vitality, Steel Fiber, Armored Agility, Energy Conversion, and Rage. This is Chroma's natural armor value, nothing added:

350 * (1+ 1.1 + .45) = 892.5 armor. That's not bad, but we can do better. Let's pop an Ice ward that increases base armor by power strength x 1.5.

892.5 + (350 * 5.385) = 2777.25 armor. That armor would make even valkyr jealous, but we're not done yet. Not even close. Vex armor time.

2777.25 * 12.21 = 33,910.23 armor. That's all of chroma's abilities, so we're done, right? Not yet, we still need arcane guardian.

33,910 * 1.6 = 54,256 armor. That's a lot of armor, so I think it's time to call it... oh wait, unairu's passive, stone shape.

54,256 * 1.12 60,766 armor. How much damage reduction is this?

(60,766) / (60,766+300) = 0.995, representing a 99.5% damage reduction.

You will have greater damage reduction than a 99% bless.

Of course, there are other non-realistic shenanigans such as unairu's 50% armor boost, equinox's 80% power boost, that weird new channeling mod, and I'm not sure if ice auras stack, but these are too ridiculous.

 

So 12k-20k was very conservative, I was assuming they wouldn't be running with Energy Conversion or Armored Agility or using Arcane Guardian. Also didn't factor in Growing Power, though.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Ardhanarishvara]

3 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Math by Iheartscones:

I'm not going to read it. I already figured it out and edited it out, and again will apologize for what I said.

My post doesn't seem to be letting me edit it again, so I'll put the edit here.

EDIT 2: I'm not even sure how it got to this point. I do agree that Oberon is more of a tanky support than a straight up tank. I guess I take offense to your idea that Rage should not be considered standard or reliable, when you're coming from the perspective of someone who does content that is not in any way applicable to the rest of the game.

Ultimately, I am not trying to argue that Oberon should replace any other 'frames, and I don't think anyone else should, really. My argument is that he is perfectly valid for standing beside them as is, and would only need some relatively minor tweaks to fix him up. Saying that he has energy issues when you're playing 90 minutes Mot isn't really fair when there's energy leeches, parasites, and nullifiers coming out the wazoo there. There aren't many 'frames that DON'T have energy issues at that point. Are you going to argue that every single rework in the future should include some sort of energy regain mechanic?

[Music4Therapy]

11 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Ultimately, I am not trying to argue that Oberon should replace any other 'frames, and I don't think anyone else should, really. My argument is that he is perfectly valid for standing beside them as is, and would only need some relatively minor tweaks to fix him up. Saying that he has energy issues when you're playing 90 minutes Mot isn't really fair when there's energy leeches, parasites, and nullifiers coming out the wazoo there. There aren't many 'frames that DON'T have energy issues at that point. Are you going to argue that every single rework in the future should include some sort of energy regain mechanic?

I agree Oberon is in a great spot atm. And its not that I run into issues with energy... its how many mods I have to dedicate to be at the point that is giving me problem. Max efficiency is usually enough to do the trick, its weird having to rely on Rage as well to be in the position other frames are at just by running Fleeting + Streamline. Which is why I agree with the "he needs energy gain", it simply takes too much imo, but maybe there are things I can do better.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Ardhanarishvara]

Can we at least agree that, at the very least, allowing team healing cost to be affected by efficiency and duration would help to relieve some of the pressure?

Spoiler

Also, what do you think of my old page 52 idea of Smite causing "shards" to fly out of an enemy, that can be picked up and slammed with Reckoning, dealing damage scaling with health/shields and multiplied against heavily armoured enemies by the armour rating of the initial target, and that not only the enemies killed by Reckoning, but also the shards, have a 10%-ish chance of dropping energy orbs?

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara
Clarification

[Music4Therapy]

Just now, Ardhanarishvara said:

Can we at least agree that, at the very least, allowing team healing cost to be affected by efficiency and duration would help to relieve some of the pressure?

  Hide contents

Also, what do you think of my old page 52 idea of Smite causing "shards" to fly out of an enemy, that can be picked up and slammed with Reckoning, and that not only the enemies killed by Reckoning, but also the shards, have a 10%-ish chance of dropping energy orbs?

 

Both are good ideas for sure.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

6 hours ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

His old passive would directly interfere with mission progress in defense and interception missions. Considering oberon's stationary playstyle made him well-suited for those mission types, that passive was complete and utter trash. Even disregarding that, the passive only worked against two summons of one faction, or the fairly rare natural wildlife in derelicts and earth. Versus corpus, he may as well have had no passive. This new passive creates a clear, noticeable, and positive effect, and boosts the already great utility of pets. Changing the passive yet again would be a mistake, and worse, a waste of DE's time when other aspects of his kit are much more deserving of their attention.

True, yet this passive is just the one he had before he had gotten the taming one and there are many other frames with almost useless or niche passives. Which is why I suggest a limit to the amount of times an animal could be tamed on top of increasing a companions stats. I still find a lot of frames passives are so extremely niche like Rhinos, which doesn't even work, that they deserve an addition to their passives. For example, giving Mag an innate faster shield recharge for her and allies nearby due to her magnetic powers. Ember would take less damage from heat procs while also gaining energy while on fire, Frost would be more immune to the cold, etc.

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

So now that you guys have reached an agreement (honestly I'm very happy the conversation ended maturely) I want to discuss changes that can be made to accomedate for this situation:

21 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

I agree Oberon is in a great spot atm. And its not that I run into issues with energy... its how many mods I have to dedicate to be at the point that is giving me problem. Max efficiency is usually enough to do the trick, its weird having to rely on Rage as well to be in the position other frames are at just by running Fleeting + Streamline. Which is why I agree with the "he needs energy gain", it simply takes too much imo, but maybe there are things I can do better.

Regarding my previous comment about the passive being a complement to energy regeneration on hallowed ground, where does everyone stand on this inclusion to his passive (as I hardly see how it would be OP to include a niche use for pets and a unique way to use the frame, which is fitting to theme, at the same time)? Because I want to see an argument similar to the one above as to why or why not it should be included.

My ideal "fix" to Oberon includes the aforementioned passive (convert 30%-40% of damage to health into energy, blocking aggro's enemies within a minimum of 10m *but scales with the range of hallowed ground to include the entirety of the area) and a change to hallowed ground. Number one, make the angle 360° at base. I cannot see a valid reason for why it is not a full circle (especially when reckoning is supposed to have synergy with hallowed ground yet reckoning casts in a circle, meaning at base, if you're surrounded by enemies, only half will get the armor debuff since the other half of the enemies are on the other side of the 180°).

Number two, I am of the firm belief that hallowed ground should have a way to supply you with energy, namely, when enemies are affected by a radiation proc on hallowed ground Oberon receives 1 energy, when enemies are killed on hallowed ground Oberon receives 5 energy with the effects stacking (so an enemy that is killed while affected by radiation restores 6 energy).

Number three though potentially "unreasonable" I also feel Oberon should be able to move his Hallowed ground via aura (can "pick up" hallowed ground and run with it as an aura effect which drains energy similar to renewal). Aura hallowed ground has 1.5x less range than placed hallowed ground. When placed again after moving, the timer continues based off of what hallowed ground was when picked up. Oberon could still place multiple hallowed grounds like he does now however (the action to convert it to an aura would be more like volts shield/riot shield). However, because of the change in mechanics I'm sure DE wouldn't want to implement anything new like that so I suppose it's not worth suggesting. However, I think it would give him far more field management as well as supporting capabilities since he would be able to be as mobile as trinity.

 Regardless, please please let me know what you think and if any of my suggestions are viable (particularly the passive, I'm much more interested in that). 

[(PSN)destroyerchris1]

Honestly I think one of Oberon's BIGGEST weaknesses isn't even his abilities themselves which need tweaking a bit but their damage type/element. What I mean by that is Oberon's abilities are designed around Radiation everyone knows that. But a GIGANTIC focus of Oberon is the radiation proc's confusion which makes enemies attack each other. That's his main utility from his powers is the radiation proc and that's supposed to be where his survivability, cc, and scaling comes from. The big problem with that is Radiation is horribly and I mean horribly inconsistent with it's proc. You can proc confusion and enemies sitting literally 2 feet from each other will still not attack each other and prioritize you anyways as if there was no proc. This happens the majority of the time even with a massive application of Rad procs enemies will still prioritize you so any utility confusion should be giving gets thrown out the window because of how inconsistent it is... The few times it does work as intended it works beautifully but those moments are few and far between and tend to happen when you proc confusion then run far away so they don't prioritize you anymore. Radiation's proc is weak and broken and has always been his main issue to me. I mean look at Nyx and her powers effects which are identical to what a rad proc would do. Major difference is Nyx confusion actually works and is reliable in that when she does it you can be sitting right in front of an enemy and they prioritize their allies over you. If the elemental combo's status proc that Oberon is centered around actually worked he would be SO much better. He would have survivability and utility but DE puts way to much faith in the current rad proc and it just doesn't work as it should. Its the only status proc that's so severely inconsistent. Imagine if ember's status proc we're as inconsistent the fire would have no CC. Or if saryns viral didn't halve enemy health all the time or if frost ice rarely ever slowed enemies. Radiation's proc is a major problem of why Oberon falls short of where he should be to me. But that's the damage types fault more so then his. Bottom line is an enemy should not be attacking you with confusion active period and enemies surrounding that enemy should actually prioritize the confused enemy over you instead of ignoring confusion all together and gunning for you anyways.

Edited May 1, 2017 by (PS4)destroyerchris1

[Music4Therapy]

1 minute ago, Oni_Spartan4 said:

So now that you guys have reached an agreement (honestly I'm very happy the conversation ended maturely) I want My ideal "fix" to Oberon includes the aforementioned passive (convert 30%-40% of damage to health into energy, blocking aggro's enemies within a minimum of 10m *but scales with the range of hallowed ground to include the entirety of the area)

-snip-

Number two, I am of the firm belief that hallowed ground should have a way to supply you with energy

-snip-

Regardless, please please let me know what you think and if any of my suggestions are viable (particularly the passive, I'm much more interested in that). 

Not a fan of rage for aforementioned reasons, plus allowing his passive to have that much possibility to generate Rage would hurt the strength of whatever energy the rest of his kit offered.

I agree that it'd be cool if Hallowed Ground had some sort of energy gaining mechanic and the energy per rad proc or kill ideas are solid. That would scale very well, it doesn't matter what level enemies you are facing you would be able to reap the benefits.

That said, the idea I've been pushing is "While on Hallowed Ground, every time a projectile created by Smite hits a target you gain X energy." It is often complained about that the damage Smite does is split more and more the higher you power strength is, this idea would turn that into a positive. Less str = smite is more focused and deals more % damage, more str = smite is spread out and but produces energy.