No More Prime/vandal Weapons

[aucran]

Why? I'd suspect the only Vandal variations of weapons will be released in Beta for Beta Players. Once the game is released, they will probably stop the Vandal game.

[dragonslayer667]

i just want to say i completely agree with vandals and primes being made into skins  for base items. its genius, let the skins keep what ever stat boonuses they have over the originals and there is no downside. except people complaining about the lose of mastery level which right now has no purpose anyways.

[TheDoctah]

That's a clever way of handling it, but it would still be troublesome for people. Namely those who already upgraded both editions of a weapon. ...I'm on the fence about which method is the most rage-free. (Of course, I assume it could be made so that if you possessed both in your inventory, it would refund the upgrade consumables on the base and alloy you to keep the ones on the special edition...? I don't know, I usually favor simplicity.)

 

It would be a kick to you gut, but it would only happen once, and it would be for the sake of making your future a brighter, more organized place.

 

Skins can modify stats, and you can color them just like normal.

 

Mastery Ranks past 7( or 8?) are presently useless anyway. Best to make this change before that changes.

 

Take a look at the Brokk, Manticore, and the Dagger Axes. They all affect stats. So too do the alternate helmets. Skins aren't "skins" in-lore. They're a game mechanic meant for your convenience that DE seems to have overlooked in their continued (and appreciated) efforts to produce more content. ...In other words, Primes and Vandals being skins which affect stats already ties into the system which they have established.

 

I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to, but I don't believe monetization has ever been a primary factor in DE's creative decisions. If you believe that DE's desire to sell base weapons is the reason we don't have skins, please keep in mind that in order to use the skin, you would first need a base weapon. (Which could be sold, just the same.)

 

However, I do agree that a change like this should also change the Braton MK-1, and that expanding on this system, which is already in place (it's just unused) with other slightly MK-1s (which could be straight-upgraded by purchasing/crafting skins) would be a great idea.

 

Yes, I have high hopes that this topic will be heard. Skins have so much potential. Primes are Orokin super-prototypes, and Vandals are Tenno refittings of (currently just Corpus) other tech. New skins-lines could be made for Grineer conversions of other faction tech, Infested assimilation of various weapons, and so on.

 

I feel unique, lore-based weaponry, (IE: The Seer, the Stalker set, and the Brokk Hammer,) should remain unique and separate existences. They're boss weapons and kind of like trophies in and of themselves... (Also the Seer is more like a super-Lex than a Kraken.)

 

A statistical differences are the spice of life. As long as timed exclusives aren't vastly more powerful than the standard fair, I don't see a problem with making them stronger. As skins, they wouldn't make their base models obsolete anyway. 

 

Try to bear in mind that it would still be a separate weapon in your Tenno arsenal. It would just take the form as if a skin in your inventory. Skins are a game mechanic. It's very similar to how alternate helmets are skins even though they're alternate helmets...

 

Yeah, I can't imagine how it must be for DE. When I'm suggesting things, I try and cause the least possible inconvenience for everyone, and I'll still get people who swear I'm trying to actively make the game worse. :-(

 

Well, that's true enough. I tend to never run out of ammo, but I use a Lex, I'd probably feel different if my favorite weapon was automatic.

 

(I don't know if you're supporting the idea and I'm just daft, but) yes, if DE actually used the skin system, it would be like being allowed to keep your data when you upgraded phones.

 

Also if "skins" are bugging you, as a few people suggested earlier in the topic, DE could always call them something a bit different. For example, calling them "models," "variants," or something along those lines could help get the point across to those people who get caught on semantics.

I'm sorry, but making it a a skin but a different weapon would be...really silly. It would be like using the same weapon twice. >_>; sounds kind of dumb to me. Not to mention you're taking up a weapon slot, for a skin. You went through the void (probably many times) for something that doesn't do anything more than look cool. It would have the same stats as the weapon you can get as a noobie. (which also sounds very, VERY silly) why would you put a potato into something that doesn't do anything (again) more than the noobie weapon? Leave the primes the way they are, if you want skins ask for some but not prime skins. Those should be more powerful. I'm not trying to be an &#! or a smart guy. Just saying it how I see it, it doesn't seem very cool at all to me.

Edited July 21, 2013 by TheDoctah

[AlchemistMute]

What's with people reading only the title?
 

- Primes and Vandals feel like separate weapons. It feels wrong to make them skins.

a) Does the Brokk look like it could be a skin for the Fragor? Does the Thrak Rhino Helm look like it can be "taped on" to the default? The only weapons which are truly skins are Vandals, and even those perform differently. Think of skins as alternate weapons or models.

 

- Wait, what about people who already put Forma and leveled their Primes/Vandals?

a) Give people their invested potatoes and add the Formas used to their inventory, then convert the weapons to skins. As for leveling, lucky them. They got some extra Mastery.

 

- Primes and Vandals being turned into skins means less potential Mastery!

a) Skins can be leveled up independently. The only effect is extra Mastery. Only the applied skin is leveled up.

 

Here's some ideas. Opinions, anyone?

[-Kittens-]

To start with, I never suggested that you (or anyone else) should have your exclusive/paid rewards taken away. I suggested that they be turned into skins.

Primarily to solve the (potential) problem of power creep. If all future +1 edition weapons were added as skins the original base weapons would never have to deal with irrelevancy. (You would be required to craft/purchase them no matter what.) As a secondary bonus, it also saves players a handful of weapon slots and allows players to spend their plat on upgrade consumables (forma/catalyts) without fear of +1 edition induced buyer's remorse.

Which, honestly, is why I have so many catalysts and so much forma stockpiled. Not going to drop them on weapons until I know I won't feel like a chump for doing so.

Thanks to X3Evanescence, ZeroAE, and NoirProxy for taking the time to read. :-)

Hate to break it to you but as someone who does design for a living I can tell you power creep and ability shifting over time is absolutely unequivocally going to happen, especially in this title, because as a free-to-pay title and SKU it depends on continual feature advancement/enhancement and ability drift as a matter of course and as a means to keep butts in seats.

It is absolutely inevitable and even necessary to keep the game moving forward and fresh. You can look at pretty much any other title that's lasted for more than three or so years and either the game will be very different than when it started, or it will have continual cycles of revision, rebooting and rebalancing.

These things are going to HAVE to happen to keep interest and keep designers excited about working on the project day after day, year after year.

Power creep is also largely a catch-all myth to whine about when things are changed in a manner that a player doesn't like. Under the hood, Ryu from SFII plays almost nothing like Ryu from SFIV, despite having the signature headband, gi and can-do attitude. It's the nature of continual advancement.

Introducing "rare" or "upscaled" variations is a simple and powerful way to create additional value from an existing product without spending a lot of time or development money, and given the nature of this game's framework, it's pretty much here to stay for rather obvious reasons.

Edited July 21, 2013 by -Kittens-

[ValhaHazred]

I have to admit, I'm convinced. Primes and Vandals can be skins.

I didn't think so at first, but there are some good arguments for it in here.

[Malikon]

I do not support this at all.   As a gentleman/lady before me said, this entire thread seems based off of the idea of "buyer's remorse" and, potentially, some frivilous use of expendable upgrade items.

[BladeMaverick]

It's only as powerful as the money/mods/time you put into it. I don't see what the issue is here.

 

Yeah sure it's a bit more powerful than what you own now, but only if you put in the same time and effort (and possibly money) into the weapon. There's no major competition. The game isn't PvP where having the better gun makes relevance. You as a player will move on once a better gun is released as harder content is brought forth.

 

For Vandals : They're event weapons for the most part. Grow up.

 

The only instance I can think of where the whole "No more Vandals/Prime weapons" should be valid is due to lack of inventory space, to which several thoughts cross through my mind..

 

1) Clean out your inventory of trash you don't use. Just be sure that whatever is useless is already rank 30. You'll thank me later.

 

2) DE should likely add inventory slots as a prize for completing Mastery Ranks for both weapons and warframes.

 

3) With the potential introduction of Vor's Shop and trading mods for Platinum, that solves the Platinum issue instead of having to just outright purchase slots with actual money.

Edited July 21, 2013 by BladeMaverick

[S3ven0F13]

That really would be awesome. I agree with the OP it sounds interesting. Prime should be a skin that boosts stats of the weapon to the prime level. not a whole new weapon that does the same exact thing.

[Rhorge]

I do not support this at all.   As a gentleman/lady before me said, this entire thread seems based off of the idea of "buyer's remorse" and, potentially, some frivilous use of expendable upgrade items.

This and lore. Why on earth would an ancient orokin relic somehow be a modification for your mass produced rifle? As for Vandals, they are better off as seperate weapons because they are awarded for events and most people would like to use them without building the base weapon first, also free slots and potatoes are welcome.

[101blubb]

I happen to find it somewhat silly to have four separate Bratons in the game and I support the OP.

[Tulzscha]

I'm in the "Primes/Vandals are totally separate weapons and have their own mastery points" camp for this one.

[Altey]

I'm in the "Primes/Vandals are totally separate weapons and have their own mastery points" camp for this one.

i too.

[Wooffgang]

Straight to the point: If a low mastery easy to obtain weapon is not better than a harder to get/exclusive one you will not bother to get it.

 

If weapon X requires mastery rank 2 and is stat superior/similar to weapon Y that is harder to get. 90% of the people will only get weapon Y for mastery experience or not get it at all. I have nothing to do with the Catalyst/Forma's that i keep getting so adding upgrades to my existing weapons and getting all around new weapons works for me.

 

A wild guess on the loadout the ppl that complain use: Boltor; Despair/Kunai/Acrid; Orthos. You do not want a weapon upgrade because you want to overpower the stuff you have so much that you never have to change it.

[Krogothian]

Yeah, I would prefer to keep my Founder Prime weapons. Lets be honest, none of the Founder prime weapons are any good.  Lato and Skana prime are only better than their free versions. Nobody spent money, time, or effort to get the Skana or Lato. 

 

In other words; I purchased two weapons that are slightly better than the free versions but no where in the same league as the weapons you can earn in the game.

[Chebyshev]

 

Straight to the point: If a low mastery easy to obtain weapon is not better than a harder to get/exclusive one you will not bother to get it.

 

If weapon X requires mastery rank 2 and is stat superior/similar to weapon Y that is harder to get. 90% of the people will only get weapon Y for mastery experience or not get it at all. I have nothing to do with the Catalyst/Forma's that i keep getting so adding upgrades to my existing weapons and getting all around new weapons works for me.

 

A wild guess on the loadout the ppl that complain use: Boltor; Despair/Kunai/Acrid; Orthos. You do not want a weapon upgrade because you want to overpower the stuff you have so much that you never have to change it.

 

^Only read the title! You WILL bother to get it if you want to skin it to the better one. I agree with you though, that was a wild guess.

So what if this thread is fueled by buyer's remorse? Priming a weapon is arbitrary and for ANY weapon (even a prime weapon), a different suffix can be added to the end of its name and it can be made a strictly better weapon. Braton Vandal -> Braton Prime sets a precedent, what if they decide that Paris Prime < Paris Vandal and they release that? This creates a situation where often a player either suffers buyer's remorse or doesn't upgrade his favorite weapon for fear of a strict upgrade being released.

Sure you might say that his now 2nd favorite weapon did as much damage as before, but if he is like most people, he will upgrade to the better weapon and all his time, potato and forma spent on the weapon goes down the toilet. What's worse is that potatoes don't flush easy and will probably clog your pipes. That is not fun for anyone and the only positive out of this is that DE may make more money (or not due to annoyed customers), who knows? Not only that, good games are balanced around the best choices players make, not the suboptimal choices. Was SCBW balanced so that all newbies could play on equal footing? No, Protoss is much better for newbies. So we can expect mobs to get stronger and the player will be compelled to upgrade.

[ValhaHazred]

This and lore. Why on earth would an ancient orokin relic somehow be a modification for your mass produced rifle? As for Vandals, they are better off as seperate weapons because they are awarded for events and most people would like to use them without building the base weapon first, also free slots and potatoes are welcome.

I don't think skins are supposed to be just modifications of an existing weapon. Look at the ones that do have skins the axes have the Dagger axe skins, Scindo specifically has the Manticore and Fragor has Brokk.

None of them look even remotely similar enough to be simple mods.

I think the intent is "skins" are alternate weapons similar enough to be Mastered the same way.

[Rhorge]

I don't think skins are supposed to be just modifications of an existing weapon. Look at the ones that do have skins the axes have the Dagger axe skins, Scindo specifically has the Manticore and Fragor has Brokk.

None of them look even remotely similar enough to be simple mods.

I think the intent is "skins" are alternate weapons similar enough to be Mastered the same way.

Well, my point was that stuff like manticore and brokk were built from the basic tenno weapons. As for the dagger axe skins: why do they even exist? At any rate they seem to be similar enough to be handled the same way, like you said.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Rhorge

[Ariarch]

No thanks, again.

[10ner]

+1

[Tazmanyak]

I think i never posted in this thread ...

I just totally agree, now DE seems to think usefull to add wagons prime wpns to the game. Thus rendering "base" models totally obsolete, that is pure crap when the base model has been potatoed/formated.

A skins system for prime/vandals would allow to save these items, potatoes, and formas. Would work for frames too.

[Malikon]

*snip*

So what if this thread is fueled by buyer's remorse?

*snip*

Sure you might say that his now 2nd favorite weapon did as much damage as before, but if he is like most people, he will upgrade to the better weapon and all his time, potato and forma spent on the weapon goes down the toilet. What's worse is that potatoes don't flush easy and will probably clog your pipes.

*snip*

I think i never posted in this thread ...

I just totally agree, now DE seems to think usefull to add wagons prime wpns to the game. Thus rendering "base" models totally obsolete, that is pure crap when the base model has been potatoed/formated.

A skins system for prime/vandals would allow to save these items, potatoes, and formas. Would work for frames too.

You do realize that you're asking for expendable upgrade items that are stupidly cheap and that just about everyone has stockpiled to only have to be used once in each weapon's progression path?  You also realize that its been admitted that you only want it because you feel that you made a mistake and want DE to change the above mentioned progression paths for all current and future weapons to suit you?  And not only do you want those paths changed, but some of you have the stones to insinuate that you deserve any "wasted" upgrade items back if you do get your way?

 

When this game holds you down and forces you to upgrade to the newest variant of a weapon (regardless of how minor of a change or upgrade it is), you might have some ground to argue for these things.  As it stands though, you made the decision and you should be held to it.  In every circumstance a person should be held responsible for their actions, even in a video game.  If you made what you felt is a poor choice in retrospect, then thats on you and you'll be all the wiser the next time you're forced to make a choice.

 

I simply cannot believe how ludicrious this whole thread is or how many people are so self-centered that they would support it.

[NoShoes]

I have to agree with OP, why should these weapons make the former version obsolete? And especially in the case of the founder primes and vandal weapons which are exclusive, why should we players who have these weapons for being at the right time or spending the right amount of cash be rewarded with superior weapons? If it's to show your dedication and support to this game, skins are perfectly fine. Heaven forbid if this was a competitive game.

 

And to those claiming that vandal and prime weapons are indeed different weapons, then how, is it not feasible for the prime/vandals be turned to skins and then those weapons be created with a different model/name? Of course, if that were the case, it would be obvious that these weapons would need to be rebalanced to prevent the older weapons from becoming obsolete (which the new primes and vandals do in fact do).

 

If you have to insist that primes and vandals are "superior" versions of a weapon, then you can make them a one time application to a base weapon to give them an otherwise obtainable advantage (say a free polarity slot), otherwise, if trends continue there's absolutely no point to ever build weaker weapons like the Bronco because you can save the resources and get a better version later. Also for mastery, currently there is little point in getting over rank 7 except as a treadmill, but rank 7 is easily obtainable without building the non prime/vandal versions anyway.

[theammostore]

If you have to insist that primes and vandals are "superior" versions of a weapon, then you can make them a one time application to a base weapon to give them an otherwise obtainable advantage (say a free polarity slot), otherwise, if trends continue there's absolutely no point to ever build weaker weapons like the Bronco because you can save the resources and get a better version later. Also for mastery, currently there is little point in getting over rank 7 except as a treadmill, but rank 7 is easily obtainable without building the non prime/vandal versions anyway.

Have fun playing around with your MKBraton Lato and Skana then on Xini.

[ValhaHazred]

You do realize that you're asking for expendable upgrade items that are stupidly cheap and that just about everyone has stockpiled to only have to be used once in each weapon's progression path?  You also realize that its been admitted that you only want it because you feel that you made a mistake and want DE to change the above mentioned progression paths for all current and future weapons to suit you?  And not only do you want those paths changed, but some of you have the stones to insinuate that you deserve any "wasted" upgrade items back if you do get your way?

This is a good point I hadn't thought of. Largely because I've only Forma'd one thing (Flux rifle) and potato nearly everything, even things I don't necessarily want to keep.

I don't know if this would be an issue if their was a good balance of new weapons and their rare skins. I know Steve (or was it Scott?) said they know they've been neglecting skins, so I guess we'll see how it turns out.