Can we please ditch self-damage?

[TheBrsrkr]

I made a thread about this already [shameless self bump] :

 

I'd rather it be fixed than removed, because a key factor of any explosive weapon  is its ability to kill its user. 

[MudShadow]

Why use the Zarr (or any self dmg launcher) when there is the Galatine prime (or any aoe melee weapon) which has almost the same AOE radius and a combo meter + turns the player invisible and self heals. That's the way I see it.

The Zarr only works on a select few frames. Either those with innate invisibility. So that you can go invisble and don't have enemies running into your face. Or frames which can metigate the self dmg through abilities, such as Forst's barrier or Volt's shield. Even then though melee is generally still better at dishing out AOE.

Edited May 8, 2017 by MudShadow

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

On 5/8/2017 at 4:15 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

This was fixed in one of the patches after the banace pass. The tether grenades mod no longer prevents self damage. Also the bug where the grenades decide to blow themselves up is still there. Also aoe explosions cant trigger headshots.

I'm aware that Tether Grenades does not remove self-damage. That's not why I was recommending it. While I was sad to see it go, I understand the reasons and agree with DE's decision (albeit reluctantly). The automatic detonation is not a bug; in addition to its other effects, TG adds an 8s timed trigger.

AOEs can indeed be headshots. You can test this yourself in the simulacrum. Try and detonate the grenade above the enemy, when it is still slightly in front of them so that the AOE hits the head before any other part of the body (use an unmodded Penta for testing, it will be easier to tell when you've landed a headshot). Penta is more easily capable of headshotting multiple enemies than other launchers, due to its manual detonation, but enemies must be very close together. It takes practice to pull off consistently; TG's glow messes with depth perception. A secondary that can proc cold on several enemies will make group headshots even easier, since they will be trapped in the dead center of TG's effect.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

On 5/8/2017 at 8:02 AM, Rambit23Z said:

Their on-paper dps might be lower, but the AOE means that you need to multiply that number by 10 or even as high as 30 to get an accurate representation of what damage those weapons really dish out.

Okay, but how do you factor in the shots you don't take because they would kill you though self damage into your DPS?  Also I am sincerely impressed that every shot you take with the ogris hits between 10 and 30 enemies.

[(PSN)KnowLedge]

"Flying space ninjas and invisible dogs"

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I'm aware that Tether Grenades does not remove self-damage. That's not why I was recommending it. While I was sad to see it go, I understand the reasons and agree with DE's decision (albeit reluctantly). The automatic detonation is not a bug; in addition to its other effects, TG adds an 8s timed trigger. Its actually 10 sec, but flight time can modify it.

AOEs can indeed be headshots. You can test this yourself in the simulacrum. Try and detonate the grenade above the enemy, when it is still slightly in front of them so that the AOE hits the head before any other part of the body (use an unmodded Penta for testing, it will be easier to tell when you've landed a headshot). Penta is more easily capable of headshotting multiple enemies than other launchers, due to its manual detonation, but enemies must be very close together. It takes practice to pull off consistently; TG's glow messes with depth perception. A secondary that can proc cold on several enemies will make group headshots even easier, since they will be trapped in the dead center of TG's effect. The problem with this is that aoe in this game is not based on a growing area but an instant hit on all targets. I recommend to test it with argon scope, no aoe based weapon (without a direct hit element) can trigger headshot.

 

[Rambit23Z]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Okay, but how do you factor in the shots you don't take because they would kill you though self damage into your DPS?

Pre-planning, simply stay at a distance at all times. Similar to how you would stay in point-blank range to not lose dps when using melee. Or just use a secondary or quick-melee when you're too close.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Also I am sincerely impressed that every shot you take with the ogris hits between 10 and 30 enemies.

I usually only bring explosives to missions where they would be useful, by using choke points. Not to mention, many frames have abilities that can bunch up enemies.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

26 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The problem with this is that aoe in this game is not based on a growing area but an instant hit on all targets. I recommend to test it with argon scope, no aoe based weapon (without a direct hit element) can trigger headshot.

I did, but not with Argon Scope. The interaction between launchers and Argon Scope was nerfed several updates ago (I don't recall when exactly, but the phrasing in the patch notes was convoluted and caused a lot of confusion in the community). Originally, launchers would trigger Argon Scope if the AOE included a head, whether or not it was an actual headshot. Now, launchers only trigger Argon Scope if a headshot multiplier is scored with either the projectile or the AOE. (Note that Tether Grenades stops Penta's projectile from triggering Argon Scope for some reason; only the AOE will trigger Argon Scope if TG is equipped.)

Just to doublecheck I wasn't talking out of my &#!, I ran a test before my initial post. I took an unmodded Penta (save for TG) into the simulacrum, spawned a lv145 ancient disruptor and cast Zenurik on it. I fired at the ground and detonated below it. The damage was 565. I fired at center mass, no change. I fired over its head and detonated. The damage was 1129. (Obviously I ignored crits; one of the headshot crits was worth 4518 damage, though.)

After your previous post, I doublechecked that my info on how Argon Scope interacts with launchers was up-to-date performing the same test, but with Argon Scope in addition to TG. The results were as I described in the first paragraph of this post.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

8 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

Pre-planning, simply stay at a distance at all times. Similar to how you would stay in point-blank range to not lose dps when using melee. Or just use a secondary or quick-melee when you're too close.

And your 'pre-planning' costs you the 30x DPS you touted.  Even if you only consider the time it takes to switch to a secondary and back, that is a massive reduction in your claimed DPS.  A simple Galatine or Atterax build will outpace any explosive weapon with just the spin attacks with no risk of self damage.  If you are not playing solo your attacks have a long setup and an underwhelming delivery meaning your teammates have long left you in the dust, leaving you nothing but a wall to shoot with your claimed '30x ogris rocket'.

10 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

I usually only bring explosives to missions where they would be useful, by using choke points. Not to mention, many frames have abilities that can bunch up enemies.

So you admit that explosive weapons are bad general weapons, and should only be used in special circumstances.  Also your 'many warframes' means nidus and vauban which is 2/32 warframes.  Nidus does not want your help so it's really only 1/32.

[Rambit23Z]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

And your 'pre-planning' costs you the 30x DPS you touted.  Even if you only consider the time it takes to switch to a secondary and back, that is a massive reduction in your claimed DPS.  A simple Galatine or Atterax build will outpace any explosive weapon with just the spin attacks with no risk of self damage.  If you are not playing solo your attacks have a long setup and an underwhelming delivery meaning your teammates have long left you in the dust, leaving you nothing but a wall to shoot with your claimed '30x ogris rocket'.

1. I don't switch to my secondary, it's something you could do, but I don't. I just bulletjump up in the air.

2. No risk of self damage with melee, sure. But you do risk damage from other enemies and AOE's instead.

3. You can't be "left behind in the dust" on a defense mission. And of course AOE weapons are sub-par on rushing missions where the enemies are spread out.

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

So you admit that explosive weapons are bad general weapons, and should only be used in special circumstances.

Nope, I just prefer to use my 27 Rate of Fire Supra (now Vandal).

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Also your 'many warframes' means nidus and vauban which is 2/32 warframes.  Nidus does not want your help so it's really only 1/32.

Frames than can group up enemies:

Atlas can drag along enemies with his boulder.
Banshee can knock enemies together with Sonic Wave.
Hydroid can gather enemies up with Tidal Wave and/or Undertow.
Loki can group them up with irradiating disarm.
Mag has Magnetize.
Nidus has Larvae. (As you mentioned)
Nyx can do the same as Loki with chaos. (Less reliable)
Octavia can gather them with her roller.
Titania has the Lantern.
Valkyr with Prolonged Paralysis.
Vauban with Vortex.
Zephyr with Divebomb Vortex.

And every frame with CC and a choke point, so almost every single one.

You also seem to have forgotten that I said "10 to 30", not "always 30".

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

3 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

1. I don't switch to my secondary, it's something you could do, but I don't. I just bulletjump up in the air.

2. No risk of self damage with melee, sure. But you do risk damage from other enemies and AOE's instead.

3. You can't be "left behind in the dust" on a defense mission. And of course AOE weapons are sub-par on rushing missions where the enemies are spread out.

Nope, I just prefer to use my 27 Rate of Fire Supra (now Vandal).

Frames than can group up enemies:

Atlas can drag along enemies with his boulder.
Banshee can knock enemies together with Sonic Wave.
Hydroid can gather enemies up with Tidal Wave and/or Undertow.
Loki can group them up with irradiating disarm.
Mag has Magnetize.
Nidus has Larvae. (As you mentioned)
Nyx can do the same as Loki with chaos. (Less reliable)
Octavia can gather them with her roller.
Titania has the Lantern.
Valkyr with Prolonged Paralysis.
Vauban with Vortex.
Zephyr with Divebomb Vortex.

And every frame with CC and a choke point, so almost every single one.

You also seem to have forgotten that I said "10 to 30", not "always 30".

Na, I'm going to hold you to your original statement which was explosive DPS needs to be multiplied by 10-30x due to it's AOE properties.  You only look at optimal situations and do not consider mitigating factors.

Your answer is 'Well I just use my supra.'  That was my point.  Explosives are not worth it.

Spoiler

Banshee's cone dispersion sonic boom is meant to group enemies together?  Give me a break.

 

[Rambit23Z]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Na, I'm going to hold you to your original statement which was explosive DPS needs to be multiplied by 10-30x due to it's AOE properties.  You only look at optimal situations and do not consider mitigating factors.

The whole purpose of AOE is to hit multiple targets. Why waste limited ammo on lone targets?

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Your answer is 'Well I just use my supra.'  That was my point.

Because I like said weapon.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Explosives are not worth it.

They are though, used the Zarr quite a bit when it came out.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Banshee's cone dispersion sonic boom is meant to group enemies together?  Give me a break.

By pushing enemies into walls and corners. Just gotta be a little creative.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

2 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

1. The whole purpose of AOE is to hit multiple targets. Why waste limited ammo on lone targets?

2. They are though, used the Zarr quite a bit when it came out.

3. By pushing enemies into walls and corners. Just gotta be a little creative.

1.  Still going to hold you to your statement.  If lone targets are encountered often then you clearly are not dealing the 10-30x damage you stated.

2.  Literally everything was used quite a bit when it came out.  The Zarr is not used now.  That's the point.

3.  How many sonic booms does it take to bunch 30 enemies in a corner for a single ogris shot?  How do all those sonic booms factor into your 30x DPS calculation for the ogris?  Does it factor in the 10 mins you spent to make such a feat possible?

[Potato]

Self damage is annoying. If you want to add challenge to the game, dont make it via suicide. lol

[Rambit23Z]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

1.  Still going to hold you to your statement.  If lone targets are encountered often then you clearly are not dealing the 10-30x damage you stated.

You can't lose DPS you couldn't even have in the first place. Weapons have a certain purpose and when used outside of those cases they're going to be less effective. That's just common sense. It's like trying to use a shotgun for sniping. (Excluding the Hek, cause that thing is basically a shotgun sniper)

8 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

2.  Literally everything was used quite a bit when it came out.  The Zarr is not used now.  That's the point.

Do you have any facts to back this statement?

8 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

3.  How many sonic booms does it take to bunch 30 enemies in a corner for a single ogris shot?  How do all those sonic booms factor into your 30x DPS calculation for the ogris?  Does it factor in the 10 mins you spent to make such a feat possible?

1, maybe 2. It takes less than 5 seconds to cast two Sonic Booms from different directions.

 

P.S. I should mention that my main reason for not using AOE weapons is that I mostly play Saryn, which deals more than enough AOE dmage.

[RealisticName]

With great power, comes great risk

[Fallen_Echo]

9 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I did, but not with Argon Scope. The interaction between launchers and Argon Scope was nerfed several updates ago (I don't recall when exactly, but the phrasing in the patch notes was convoluted and caused a lot of confusion in the community). Originally, launchers would trigger Argon Scope if the AOE included a head, whether or not it was an actual headshot. Now, launchers only trigger Argon Scope if a headshot multiplier is scored with either the projectile or the AOE. (Note that Tether Grenades stops Penta's projectile from triggering Argon Scope for some reason; only the AOE will trigger Argon Scope if TG is equipped.)

Just to doublecheck I wasn't talking out of my &#!, I ran a test before my initial post. I took an unmodded Penta (save for TG) into the simulacrum, spawned a lv145 ancient disruptor and cast Zenurik on it. I fired at the ground and detonated below it. The damage was 565. I fired at center mass, no change. I fired over its head and detonated. The damage was 1129. (Obviously I ignored crits; one of the headshot crits was worth 4518 damage, though.)

After your previous post, I doublechecked that my info on how Argon Scope interacts with launchers was up-to-date performing the same test, but with Argon Scope in addition to TG. The results were as I described in the first paragraph of this post.

Interesting, i never assumed that im able to do headshot (or headshot crits) with aoe weapons ever since i heard that those were "patched" so weapons like the tonkor and the synsim will be unable to get absurd amount of damage.

I read the original notes somewhere near the u19 update where they managed to change the headshot effect for all aoe weapons, i always thought that im cant make headshots or headshot crits.

Thanks for clearing it for me!

[Callback]

Self damage needs to be reigned in, not removed entirely.  The problem is that instead of being merely self-damage, it's instant suicide.  Even the very edge of an Ogris explosion is instant death for 95% of frames.  The problem is that these weapons pose a far higher threat to us than they do to the enemy.  It's made worse when we have such easy alternatives like Tigris Prime that work JUST as well for carving through them, but with No risk to us.

 

Balance the risk.  Make self-damage not scale with mods and other buffs (and remove self damage from additional projectiles created by multishot).  Simple as that.  Our health and the enemy's health work on completely different orders of magnitude, so hitting ourselves with numbers meant for them is just insane.  If I fire a bit too close to myself and take 350 damage and a blast proc for being a bit too close, that's meaningful but not debilitating.  Yes some frames can build ultra tanky and won't be impacted as hard.  So what?  So a tank can tank.  This game isn't built purely around max strength vex armor Chroma (tho corpus techs sure make it seem that way).

 

If we balance self-damage around the kinds of hits enemies are doing to US instead of the hits we are doing to THEM, then it becomes an appropriate risk vs the reward offered.  A reward that is not very substantial considering how powerful many of our other risk-free weapons already are.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Callback

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2017. 05. 08. at 6:50 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

I made a thread about this already [shameless self bump] :

 

I'd rather it be fixed than removed, because a key factor of any explosive weapon  is its ability to kill its user. 

Every time someone talks about self damage i link this in.

[Truckerbuzz]

Comming back after not playing for almost 6 months i like the change to do self damage "but" my main frame i play as mirage its stupidly leathal if i missjudge a railing #1 ablilty tends to kill me with any explosive cause i dont pay full attention to the mirrors and the explosive will detonate on a wall im next to took two shots with the tonkor to figure out what was happening cause i missed what actally happened on the first one

second take after testing on the open ground on earth the mirrors grenades are actually exploding on anouther portion of the shot if im attmpting to arc over one of them death insues just due to the extreame damage on the build and this was after taking away firestorm to attempt to reduce the raius of the explosion to prevent self death in 90% of shot but it still happens

Edited May 10, 2017 by Truckerbuzz

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

Play as a Defy Wukong and equip your explosives then you'll see why there is self damage.