Excalibur could use some tweaks

[Buzkyl]

First before the inevitable swarm of "Excalibur is fine" post, the fame like every frame in the game has issues with his kit. While he's in a better position than other frames, this isn't the place to discusses which frames need, but to discuss excal and Excalibur.

 

So let's start

1.Slash Dash

• Should give given a combo meter like Landslide Ripline and rhino charge.
• Should be able to crit, while in exalted blade
• Increase speed/better consistency in homing and dashing

Slash dash is a pretty good skill. It's current issues is that despite taking melee mods into consideration, it can't crit which is alright as a first skill. However if Excalibur is wielding EB, SD should be able to crit as he is slashing them with a weapon capable of critting. Would also be appreciated if there;s visual feedback on what he's going to home into, such as holding 1 would show excalibur's current targets,

2. Exalted Blade

Before we start, i'm going to separate EB into 2 parts, Exalted Blade Longsword and Exalted Blade Waves

The longsword should always be stronger than the energy waves, excalibur is a swordsman, his blade should be more lethal than it's energy waves, encouraging him to close the distance and go into melee.

General Changes

• Damage reduction for frontal attacks Increased from 60% to 75%
• Slash Dash, Radial Javelin and Radial Blind are reduce by 25% while in exalted blade
• Slide attack cost reduced from 25 energy to 20 energy
• Slide attack base range increased from 5M to 10M
• Exalted Blade stances should be given a charge attack

Exalted Blade Long Sword

• Now affected by conditional mods like Bloodrush and Body count.
• Still unaffected by weapon specific mods. such as Augments

 

EB is a really good skill however it is surpassed by many melee weapons because mods the acolyte mods do not affect it, however other conditional mods like Conditional Overload do. This should really be taken a look at, Exalted Blade should be the best melee in the game but at the very least should be able to be consistent with other melee weapons interms of modding. It's slide attack frankly shouldn't have an energy cost as sliding is an ingrained part of melee fighting, but a slight reduction in cost should be ok.

 

3.Radial Javelin

• Damage scales with Combo multiplier also affected by stealth multipliers  removed this part. Radial Javelin also ends the combo multiplier (credit: SortaRandom )
• Enemies impaled will deal decreased ranged damage for a duration.

This skill has a weird spot in his kit. It's CC is outdone by Radial Blind and it's damage is outdone by Exalted Blade. I propose it be turned into a debuff for enemies, decreasing their range damage dealt which helps Excalibur survival higher level before he is able to close the distance.

 

Any feedback is welcome and feel free to give your own ideas.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Buzkyl

[Baterial]

6 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Exalted Blade Long Sword

• Now affected by conditional mods like Bloodrush and Body count.

3.Radial Javelin

• Damage scales with Combo multiplier also affected by stealth multipliers.

 

This is my feedback

[Buzkyl]

18 minutes ago, Baterial said:

-snip-

 This is constructive.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Buzkyl

[Excalibur]

Pardon me while I figure this out, I'm bad with the forum system.

26 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

1.Slash Dash

• Should give given a combo meter like Landslide Ripline and rhino charge.
• Should be able to crit, while in exalted blade
• Increase speed/better consistency in homing and dashing

Slash dash is a pretty good skill. It's current issues is that despite taking melee mods into consideration, it can't crit which is alright as a first skill. However if Excalibur is wielding EB, SD should be able to crit as he is slashing them with a weapon capable of critting. Would also be appreciated if there;s visual feedback on what he's going to home into, such as holding 1 would show excalibur's current targets,

I think this is interesting. I think the speed is fine as it is (Slash Dash actually ramps up the more targets you hit), but definitely a fix on the homing. Holding 1 shows the cone in which we cast would be a great QoL thing. It being able to crit in EB seems a bit much, though. It's only his first ability.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

2. Exalted Blade

Before we start, i'm going to separate EB into 2 parts, Exalted Blade Longsword and Exalted Blade Waves

The longsword should always be stronger than the energy waves, excalibur is a swordsman, his blade should be more lethal than it's energy waves, encouraging him to close the distance and go into melee.

General Changes

• Damage reduction for frontal attacks Increased from 60% to 75%
• Slash Dash, Radial Javelin and Radial Blind are reduce by 25% while in exalted blade
• Slide attack cost reduced from 25 energy to 20 energy
• Slide attack base range increased from 5M to 10M
• Exalted Blade stances should be given a charge attack

Exalted Blade Long Sword

• Now affected by conditional mods like Bloodrush and Body count.
• Still unaffected by weapon specific mods. such as Augments

I don't think we should change the damage reduction, and I'll get to why that is in a second.
Reduction of energy cost from abilities would be a neat synergy and would encourage the Swordsman-vibe (I.E. using EB more)
Slide attack cost is alright, but 5 less energy couldn't hurt.
I don't think the base range on the slide attack needs to increase (do you mean of the blind?) because it feels like that would invalidate his 2.
A charge attack wouldn't be remiss; maybe one that releases a small 'flurry' of waves? (Like, three rapid fire?). Just a thought.

As for it being affected by conditional mods; I don't think that's wise. EB, as it stands, is really powerful right now with Chromatic Blade. And generally, blinding enemies before EBing them lets you sashimi them with little effort. Add a Corrosive Chromatic Blade into the mix and you don't even need the blind. Just instant sashimi wherever you go...or point at.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Radial Javelin

• Damage scales with Combo multiplier also affected by stealth multipliers.
• Enemies impaled will deal decreased ranged damage for a duration.

This skill has a weird spot in his kit. It's CC is outdone by Radial Blind and it's damage is outdone by Exalted Blade. I propose it be turned into a debuff for enemies, decreasing their range damage dealt which helps Excalibur survival higher level before he is able to close the distance.

Lemme tell you something.
I hate Radial Javelin. It has useless CC, it only does 1000 damage (scales with power strength, poorly at that) and in perfect, ideal conditions? Might maybe do 4000 damage. Maybe. If you have buffs/blind rage/transient fortitude/etc etc.

Now, I disagree on it needing to be a debuff, because we already have Blind, which is an integral part of Excalibur's kit and does plenty as a debuff in itself. I actually propose a complete removal of the ability, with a new one in its place.

Granted, I have no idea what this ability would be called, but I threw some stuff together, complete with numbers! Numbers of course being subject to change as I'm not a game dev and 'what r balance';

Excalibur creates 1/2/3/4 floating swords, each one absorbing 5%/10%/15%/20% damage aimed at Excalibur, acting like an auto-parry a-la Reflex Guard. Number of swords does not scale, damage absorb scales (caps at 85% total dmg reduction). Swords disappear after 5/10/15/20 seconds, scales with duration. BUT, at max rank (I.E. 4 swords), a sword disappears every X seconds, scaling with duration. So at base cast you have all 4 swords, 15 seconds you lose a sword, 10 seconds you have 2 swords left, 5 seconds you have 1 sword, etc.

However, unlike Reflex Guard, the auto-parry from the swords does not interrupt actions.

It gives Excalibur some much needed survivability (this is why I didn't think the EB Damage reduction should be changed!) and helps him fill the 'tank' role of the starter three frames.

Now, this would also warrant replacing Radial Javelin's augment; but with what?

So my augment idea (which also has no name cuz I have no base ability name to play off of) would be simple. It'd reduce the damage reduction to a flat 10% per sword I.E. less damage reduction, BUT would allow the swords to actively swing at nearby enemies a bit out of melee range. The swords obviously scale off strength and equipped melee mods (not conditional ones I.E.  Bloodrush/Body Count/Drifting Contact) but! They swing every 2 seconds. For 1000 damage a swing. Which is how much damage Radial Javelin does! I also imagined the swords swinging in a staggered pattern. I.E. first one swings in 2 seconds, next one at 4, etc etc.

This changes Excalibur's 3 from defense-oriented to offense-oriented! And doesn't remove any base functionality from the ability.

Iunno. Excalibur needs some fine-tuning. But his 3 definitely needs a complete overhaul, as far as I'm concerned.

[Kyryo]

I dont know. i feel like excalibro is one of the few "perfect frame" we have.

Killing lv270+ eximus corrupted heavy gunners with CEB is something that gives you a b--- we cant say that here... but you got the idea, right?

 

The RJ tho is really something that i personally forget about most of the time. just , don't touch any other skill

[Excalibur]

Just now, Kyryo said:

I dont know. i feel like excalibro is one of the few "perfect frame" we have.

Killing lv270+ eximus corrupted heavy gunners with CEB is something that gives you a b--- we cant say that here... but you got the idea, right?

 

The RJ tho is really something that i personally forget about most of the time. just , don't touch any other skill

Then he's not a perfect frame.

He's not perfect if we're ignoring one of the skills in his kit. And he's definitely not perfect if we're limited to just the one skill with zero synergy with his other skills.

[Kyryo]

Just now, Excalibur said:

Then he's not a perfect frame.

He's not perfect if we're ignoring one of the skills in his kit. And he's definitely not perfect if we're limited to just the one skill with zero synergy with his other skills.

depends on your concept of perfect. For me "Perfect" is a frame that can sustain itself and kill everything up to 300+

[Excalibur]

Just now, Kyryo said:

depends on your concept of perfect. For me "Perfect" is a frame that can sustain itself and kill everything up to 300+

Then we're gonna have to disagree on that front; for me it's a frame that actually makes you use the whole kit (and not in a 'Saryn also you lose all your energy for using her whole kit lol bye') way. More in a Nidus way.

[shut]

I like the general idea behind the tweaks, but:

56 minutes ago, Baterial said:

-snip-

This is my feedback

I feel the exact same way.

 

3. Letting Javelin scale from stealth multipliers would just mean that Excal can effectively spam 8000-damage nukes for 125 energy. Or spam 8000-damage nukes for 75 energy at twice the speed if Naramon / Octavia Teabag is active. This will be 2 or 3 times as bad if you've got a combo counter active, and this is without modifying Strength.
That's not okay. Javelin needs a niche that doesn't involve it turning back into a boring old Viver/Draco spam button. 

My suggestion:
- Javelins always point away from Excal, and ragdoll enemies away.
- Javelins apply OP's debuff to ranged damage for a period of time.

 

4. Letting a high-speed 250-base-damage powerhouse scale from Blood Rush will never be okay, for the exact same reason that this was disallowed in the first place.

Edited June 28, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Buzkyl]

2 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

- Javelins scale from the combo counter, but end the combo.

This I believe is very improtant and will update OP according

 

3 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

4. Letting a high-speed 250-base-damage powerhouse scale from Blood Rush will never be okay, for the exact same reason that this was disallowed in the first place.

Many mods were barred from EB because they affected his blade waves, turning from an implied swordsman into a living Fluctus. It's perfectly acceptable that waves do not benefit off those mods however the physical blade should. Which is why EB as a skill is alright, but as a melee weapon it falls behind a larger catergory of melee weapons because it is unaffected by bloodrush.

[shut]

15 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

This I believe is very improtant and will update OP according

I actually deleted that from my post just now. I realized that ending combos would make Javelin disastrous for melee play, save for situations where you know your combo is about to end (e.g. the end of a round in Defense/Interception).

Might be worth it if it ignored all armor or something. Needs some extra "oomph" to be worth that combo loss, if it's to be designed as a nuke.

15 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Many mods were barred from EB because they affected his blade waves, turning from an implied swordsman into a living Fluctus. It's perfectly acceptable that waves do not benefit off those mods however the physical blade should. Which is why EB as a skill is alright, but as a melee weapon it falls behind a larger catergory of melee weapons because it is unaffected by bloodrush.

EB still deals 500 damage and rolls twice for status procs at close range, which is a gigantic advantage over every other weapon in the game (including Hysteria). It doesn't need scaling from Blood Rush because hitting things with the sword already vaporizes everything with ease.

EB is in a good state in terms of damage. Introducing Blood Rush will needlessly push it back into "overpowered" territory.

Edited June 28, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Buzkyl]

14 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I actually deleted that from my post just now. I realized that ending combos would make Javelin disastrous for melee play, save for situations where you know your combo is about to end (e.g. the end of a round in Defense/Interception).

Might be worth it if it ignored all armor or something. Needs some extra "oomph" to be worth that combo loss, if it's to be designed as a nuke.

That is my current intention for it, a scaling nuke that has to be built up. A melee version of equinox Maim if you will. Should the damage not kill the 12 enemies affected, they are adequately debuffed and monetarily stunned.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

1 hour ago, Excalibur said:

Then he's not a perfect frame.

He's not perfect if we're ignoring one of the skills in his kit. And he's definitely not perfect if we're limited to just the one skill with zero synergy with his other skills.

I use javelin after blind and then slash dash. Finally stopped using Skana Prime, replaced with Nikana Prime... 

Excalibur Prime is now a super samurai.

Also, be reminded the difference between the two is 25 armor and a reskin. So don't claim a power difference.

[Excalibur]

Just now, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

I use javelin after blind and then slash dash. Finally stopped using Skana Prime, replaced with Nikana Prime... 

Excalibur Prime is now a super samurai.

Also, be reminded the difference between the two is 25 armor and a reskin. So don't claim a power difference.

Nowhere did I claim a power difference? Or even bring Excalibur Prime into this?

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

1 minute ago, Excalibur said:

Nowhere did I claim a power difference? Or even bring Excalibur Prime into this?

I wasn't talking about you. I just know how it goes. I've never built a regular Excalibur. Just saying, he's a killer as-is.

[Excalibur]

1 minute ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

I wasn't talking about you. I just know how it goes. I've never built a regular Excalibur. Just saying, he's a killer as-is.

And I'm gonna have to disagree on that. I love his kit, but radial javelin is garbage.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

1 minute ago, Excalibur said:

And I'm gonna have to disagree on that. I love his kit, but radial javelin is garbage.

At high levels you know what we all do. Exalted Blade, Slash Dash until he pops the random Blind, then beat the snot out of all of them standing still looking at stars. I can't say that i ever even cast blind unless it's just a goodtime run.

[Excalibur]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

At high levels you know what we all do. Exalted Blade, Slash Dash until he pops the random Blind, then beat the snot out of all of them standing still looking at stars. I can't say that i ever even cast blind unless it's just a goodtime run.

That's what I'm saying; that's garbage.

I like Excalibur's kit (except Radial Javelin) but all of his abilities could be tweaked to synergize better with eachother.

Or just replace Radial Javelin. OR make it synergize. Hell, so long as DE at least takes a look at Excalibur and makes him more viable than he is right now. He's good, but he could be better. More fun, intuitive, and synergistic with his kit.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

Just now, Excalibur said:

That's what I'm saying; that's garbage.

I like Excalibur's kit (except Radial Javelin) but all of his abilities could be tweaked to synergize better with eachother.

Or just replace Radial Javelin. OR make it synergize. Hell, so long as DE at least takes a look at Excalibur and makes him more viable than he is right now. He's good, but he could be better. More fun, intuitive, and synergistic with his kit.

That is true. Javelin is a little slow to cast and weak for the time and energy it takes to be synergistic with his kit. I still like going on Lith and impaling the whole swarm with it every now and again.

[AKKILLA]

6 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

First before the inevitable swarm of "Excalibur is fine" post, the fame like every frame in the game has issues with his kit. While he's in a better position than other frames, this isn't the place to discusses which frames need, but to discuss excal and Excalibur.

 

So let's start

1.Slash Dash

• Should give given a combo meter like Landslide Ripline and rhino charge.
• Should be able to crit, while in exalted blade
• Increase speed/better consistency in homing and dashing

Slash dash is a pretty good skill. It's current issues is that despite taking melee mods into consideration, it can't crit which is alright as a first skill. However if Excalibur is wielding EB, SD should be able to crit as he is slashing them with a weapon capable of critting. Would also be appreciated if there;s visual feedback on what he's going to home into, such as holding 1 would show excalibur's current targets,

2. Exalted Blade

Before we start, i'm going to separate EB into 2 parts, Exalted Blade Longsword and Exalted Blade Waves

The longsword should always be stronger than the energy waves, excalibur is a swordsman, his blade should be more lethal than it's energy waves, encouraging him to close the distance and go into melee.

General Changes

• Damage reduction for frontal attacks Increased from 60% to 75%
• Slash Dash, Radial Javelin and Radial Blind are reduce by 25% while in exalted blade
• Slide attack cost reduced from 25 energy to 20 energy
• Slide attack base range increased from 5M to 10M
• Exalted Blade stances should be given a charge attack

Exalted Blade Long Sword

• Now affected by conditional mods like Bloodrush and Body count.
• Still unaffected by weapon specific mods. such as Augments

 

EB is a really good skill however it is surpassed by many melee weapons because mods the acolyte mods do not affect it, however other conditional mods like Conditional Overload do. This should really be taken a look at, Exalted Blade should be the best melee in the game but at the very least should be able to be consistent with other melee weapons interms of modding. It's slide attack frankly shouldn't have an energy cost as sliding is an ingrained part of melee fighting, but a slight reduction in cost should be ok.

 

3.Radial Javelin

• Damage scales with Combo multiplier also affected by stealth multipliers  removed this part. Radial Javelin also ends the combo multiplier (credit: SortaRandom )
• Enemies impaled will deal decreased ranged damage for a duration.

This skill has a weird spot in his kit. It's CC is outdone by Radial Blind and it's damage is outdone by Exalted Blade. I propose it be turned into a debuff for enemies, decreasing their range damage dealt which helps Excalibur survival higher level before he is able to close the distance.

 

Any feedback is welcome and feel free to give your own ideas.

Excal and Excalibur?

Isnt Excal Excalibur?

Am I wrong?

[Magneu]

While I love the idea of Radial Javelin becoming a defensive skill, I also remember the old-school, fan spread of RJ, spanning directly in front of Excal. Bringing that back with the same Hallowed Ground angle mechanics (+range increases the angle), keeping some damage, and forcing a ragdoll/pushback would be a helpful, effective, and awesome-looking skill.

The entire "scaling off the combo counter" idea could totally be implemented as well. Change the base damage to say, 800 per javelin, six or so javelins in the arc; removing homing, but enlarge the hit-box slightly so that if an enemy is caught between the two side-points of the arc, they get hit. Combo multiplier applies a 1.5x, 2.0x, 2.5x, etc, damage multiplier. RJ becomes a Virulence-style scaling ability, while gaining CC to enable Excal to not have to rely on spamming RB to stay alive against Bombards.

Then again, the "shield of swords" idea sounds amazing and would help him survive. Maybe make that the default and have an augment turn it offensive, or vice-versa?

[Excalibur]

3 hours ago, Magneu said:

Then again, the "shield of swords" idea sounds amazing and would help him survive. Maybe make that the default and have an augment turn it offensive, or vice-versa?

 

10 hours ago, Excalibur said:

So my augment idea (which also has no name cuz I have no base ability name to play off of) would be simple. It'd reduce the damage reduction to a flat 10% per sword I.E. less damage reduction, BUT would allow the swords to actively swing at nearby enemies a bit out of melee range. The swords obviously scale off strength and equipped melee mods (not conditional ones I.E.  Bloodrush/Body Count/Drifting Contact) but! They swing every 2 seconds. For 1000 damage a swing. Which is how much damage Radial Javelin does! I also imagined the swords swinging in a staggered pattern. I.E. first one swings in 2 seconds, next one at 4, etc etc.

This changes Excalibur's 3 from defense-oriented to offense-oriented! And doesn't remove any base functionality from the ability.

got'cho back bruh

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

Only ability I ignore is radial javelin. That needs to be spiced up.

[Railgun]

I've always wanted Excal's skills do deal more damage when under blind from Radial Blind, like if you blind a group of enemies and then use Radial Javelin, it would do just a bit more damage. Just a thought I wanted to add 

[Windy_Wind]

yeah, I do think that his radial javelin is pretty pointless and does almost nothing if not nothing.  And it's the only ability that pushes him away from a completed frame.

Your suggestion is nice really but then again, most people just wanna use EB at long distance instead of trying to melee and build his combo to even make radial javelin effective based on your suggestion.

I think it would be better that each EB attack will store a certain amount of damage (probably 15% of the total damage per wave) and this damage will be added to radial javelin on the next time when player casts it.