Being the Stalker at Tennocon?

[WrathAscending]

2 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

Full team or bust? Now we HAVE to go in full team in EVERY defense mission or risk getting screwed over?

Not just full team, but at the least fully loaded. Too bad if you're working on levelling new gear, I guess. Which you kinda need to do for that whole PVE progression thing since certain Junctions require Quests or reach certain Relays, or gain access to MR-locked weapons. Which will be the inevitable outcome here- you'll need to bring your best gear any time you think you might get invaded, which prevents normal PVE progression.

Oops.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Stalker is sullied by being player controlled you say? If I see Stalker coming to either:

A. Kill me.

B. Sabotage my mission.

C. All of the above.

Then he's pretty much doing his job, AI or not. It's what he does to the people he despises with all of his core.

There is still a difference here. One is the PVE system and its associated AI doing its thing, which you sign up for just by playing PVE content. The moment you open things up to PVP Stalker you placing a potential PVP block on PVE content.

Regarding your points in the post above, the issue is not necessarily PVP Stalker going after massively geared players using multi-Forma equipment and wading hip deep in Arcanes (though personally I do not want to see PVP Stalker at all), but those who either don't have that equipment to begin with since they are coming up through the ranks themselves or who do but aren't currently using it to gain MR.

And again, if the PVE Stalker isn't "threatening" enough then the solution is to do something about the PVE Stalker's AI, ability, and damage output though to be honest having seen him rip through squads who aren't blinged to the nines with endgame gear I doubt that's the problem.

[Zanchak]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

I don't play conclave either. I limit my pvp to friends who usually make it genuinely fun, and it at least makes you more open to ways to move around in missions as well. It can serve more purpose than ego stroking. 

If you lose to a player stalker, then you would've lost to AI stalker too. Its the same loadout and I'm pretty certain its unmodded.

Just because you "always get hunted", doesn't mean others do as well.

Stalker is sullied by being player controlled you say? If I see Stalker coming to either:

A. Kill me.

B. Sabotage my mission.

C. All of the above.

Then he's pretty much doing his job, AI or not. It's what he does to the people he despises with all of his core.

As I've already stated, I don't see what the big outcry is. Its an entity who hates our faction and sees to impede our progress every step he can manage. Lore-wise and gameplay centered.

AI Stalker doesnt move like some conclave players who thrive on trolling people who dont live in it. AI Stalker doesn't kill me unless Im basically asleep.

My issue isnt with being killed by him, its with a character being trashed and newer players losing out on drops/ progression for someone elses power trip. Important characters should never be available for us to play, and ruin. Too, characters that directly link to things you have to do (farm bosses for frames that in turn gets you marked, for example) most definitely should never be touched by or available to players.

Just because other people "don't always get hunted" doesn't mean Im the only one who is, either. It works in reverse too.

 

[WrathAscending]

6 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

Do you know what the Standard Stalker have in his disposal? His abilities? As I said, Player Stalker will be Hyper agile. Conclave veterans can bullet-jump and get head-shots like no tomorrow. Now add to that Stalker's abilites: Pull, Teleport, Absorb, Reckoning, Dispel, all with unlimited energy. You think you can deal with that? AI Stalker just walk or run to you. Player Stalker won't give you that luxury.

So what you want is for the Stalker to be so difficult to defeat that newer, un-blinged players will have even more difficulty obtaining his drops and gaining MR progression from that alone, plus also potentially have progression at all gated due to successive Stalker assaults while they try to gather the materials to forge items earned from the bosses that also apply Death Marks?

Not everyone likes or enjoys PVP, and the skill sets it rewards are vastly different to normal PVE play. If I wanted to hone those skills or test myself against them I'd be in Conclave already.

And please, spare me the arguments about PVP players being "more skilled" at the game. I've seen people using high-level Conclave skins, syandanas, and Sigils getting roflstomped by normal bosses, much less more complex ones like Kela or Sortie-level opponents. The skill sets are different, not superior.

[Kjahla81]

If they were to add this then it will need to meet certain criteria. 

1. You can only fight those with the same MR and/or higher. 

2. You are limited to a once a week Stalker mode. (Like the Clem/ Maroo alerts )

3. There should be an option to turn on or off Stalker mode.

4. No interference with objectives.

That's just a few I can think of.

[Gamma745]

Just now, WrathAscending said:

So what you want is for the Stalker to be so difficult to defeat that newer, un-blinged players will have even more difficulty obtaining his drops and gaining MR progression from that alone, plus also potentially have progression at all gated due to successive Stalker assaults while they try to gather the materials to forge items earned from the bosses that also apply Death Marks?

Not everyone likes or enjoys PVP, and the skill sets it rewards are vastly different to normal PVE play. If I wanted to hone those skills or test myself against them I'd be in Conclave already.

I know that. Have you actually seen my posts in this thread? I'm not exactly thrilled with Stalker mode. I guess I'll try to deal with it if it ever got implemented despite protest, but doesn't mean I will like it.

 

2 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

And please, spare me the arguments about PVP players being "more skilled" at the game. I've seen people using high-level Conclave skins, syandanas, and Sigils getting roflstomped by normal bosses, much less more complex ones like Kela or Sortie-level opponents. The skill sets are different, not superior.

Yeah, indeed. PvP-centric gameplay is far different from PvE gameplay. Unfortunately, Stalker mode will cater more to that PvP gameplay.

[Vertexer]

Just got invaded and one-shotted by the Stalker (AI). I'm sure it would have felt just the same as a human-invader.

[WrathAscending]

7 minutes ago, Kjahla81 said:

If they were to add this then it will need to meet certain criteria. 

1. You can only fight those with the same MR and/or higher. 

2. You are limited to a once a week Stalker mode. (Like the Clem/ Maroo alerts )

3. There should be an option to turn on or off Stalker mode.

4. No interference with objectives.

That's just a few I can think of.

The thing is that by the time you go through and remove everything that can be used for griefing, like implementing an opt-in only system, preventing the targeting of low-level players or hitting low-level planets and taking away the opportunity to do anything other than actually try to PVP your target, what you wind up with is a glorified Conclave mode that can take place on a PVE tile.

At which point... why not just use those PVE tiles to build a new PVP map and mode so the players who want to be hunted by or hunt others as the Stalker can do so without having any impact whatsoever on the PVE portion of the game?

Why is it so vitally important that a means of forcing PVP into PVE content be made available?

The simple fact of the matter is this: most players do not like Conclave-style games and stay as far away from them as possible. This is despite how long Conclave has been in the game, how often Conclave players try to persuade others to come and experience the mode here, and two Tactical Alerts designed from the ground up to advertise the mode. It's had plenty of time to sell itself to this point and has utterly failed to do so, because it is not an experience most of the player base enjoys. If they did enjoy it, logically, they'd be playing Conclave already.

3 minutes ago, Vertexer said:

Just got invaded and one-shotted by the Stalker (AI). I'm sure it would have felt just the same as a human-invader.

Perhaps for you. Not so for me. To me, the knowledge that it is the normal nature of the PVE experience, however frustrating, is entirely different to the knowledge that another player has entered, or wants to enter, my PVE game for the sole purpose of engaging in PVP combat. If I wanted to PVP, I would be in Conclave already.

[Vertexer]

4 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Perhaps for you. Not so for me. To me, the knowledge that it is the normal nature of the PVE experience, however frustrating, is entirely different to the knowledge that another player has entered, or wants to enter, my PVE game for the sole purpose of engaging in PVP combat. If I wanted to PVP, I would be in Conclave already.

Yea, all of that is beyond me. I lost. Makes no difference who was behind the veil. 

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

1 hour ago, Zanchak said:

AI Stalker doesnt move like some conclave players who thrive on trolling people who dont live in it. AI Stalker doesn't kill me unless Im basically asleep.

My issue isnt with being killed by him, its with a character being trashed and newer players losing out on drops/ progression for someone elses power trip. Important characters should never be available for us to play, and ruin. Too, characters that directly link to things you have to do (farm bosses for frames that in turn gets you marked, for example) most definitely should never be touched by or available to players.

Just because other people "don't always get hunted" doesn't mean Im the only one who is, either. It works in reverse too.

 

Please, explain to me how dying 1 time (in which case that 1 death means player stalker automatically kneels and leaves and cannot enter that mission for the remaining duration again) to Stalker, player controlled or other prevents progression.

When you first started, how many times did Stalker kill you and you couldn't revive and continue on your mission as though nothing happened? Please tell me this sudden "one stalker per mission suddenly prevents progression" that you've experienced with AI stalker that would carry over into player stalker. Because I've never seen it once.

 

[WrathAscending]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Please, explain to me how dying 1 time (in which case that 1 death means player stalker automatically kneels and leaves and cannot enter that mission for the remaining duration again) to Stalker, player controlled or other prevents progression.

When you first started, how many times did Stalker kill you and you couldn't revive and continue on your mission as though nothing happened? Please tell me this sudden "one stalker per mission suddenly prevents progression" that you've experienced with AI stalker that would carry over into player stalker. Because I've never seen it once.

 

It depends on many factors, like how many revives you've used already and whether or not the Stalker manages to interact with mission objectives, but there's definitely a non-zero chance that PVP intrusion into PVE games can cause mission failure. And that might be the only mission you had time for that day, or the mission you were running to gain the last few hundred MR points to get to the next level, or the one where you'd finally farmed up enough Argon Crystals to build what you wanted, or the node might have changed from Kuva Flood to normal or gone from Day to Night cycle, or whatever else too.

Granted that losing a revive hurts a lot less now that it's 4-6 per mission instead of 4 per day per frame, but we're still talking about a chance for the PVP Stalker to ruin a mission and the only remedy being not participating in boss hunts even if they are required for progression or are a Sortie target. Which in turn means we're talking about PVP content having the potential to adversely effect PVE content in a game where PVE players and play time vastly outnumber the players engaged with and time used for PVP content.

I suppose we'll know more after the Devstream, but what advocates of the mode want, the way it was presented, and the small amount of information DE have given about what they intend is a flat nope from me.

EDIT: And since I first started, I have had days when the Stalker took two or more revives from the then daily limited supply, forcing me to leave behind Frames I wanted to play because they had one or no revives left many times, especially when my arsenal consisted of my starter Mag and my Rhino. Even with no daily revive limit there is still the friction between wanting to level an item and needing to carry gear that can handle possible invasions, which in and of itself harms PVE player choice. Again, much less of an issue for me since I have gear that is definitely loaded for bear and even new items come with 48 capacity thanks to my MR and supply of Gift of the Lotus and Alert potatoes, but this isn't going to be the case for MR-12 players still fighting their way up through the ranks. It is going to hit them a lot harder than it will hit me.

Edited July 17, 2017 by WrathAscending

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

1 minute ago, WrathAscending said:

It depends on many factors, like how many revives you've used already and whether or not the Stalker manages to interact with mission objectives, but there's definitely a non-zero chance that PVP intrusion into PVE games can cause mission failure. And that might be the only mission you had time for that day, or the mission you were running to gain the last few hundred MR points to get to the next level, or the one where you'd finally farmed up enough Argon Crystals to build what you wanted, or the node might have changed from Kuva Flood to normal or gone from Day to Night cycle, or whatever else too.

Granted that losing a revive hurts a lot less now that it's 4-6 per mission instead of 4 per day per frame, but we're still talking about a chance for the PVP Stalker to ruin a mission and the only remedy being not participating in boss hunts even if they are required for progression or are a Sortie target. Which in turn means we're talking about PVP content having the potential to adversely effect PVE content in a game where PVE players and play time vastly outnumber the players engaged with and time used for PVP content.

I suppose we'll know more after the Devstream, but what advocates of the mode want, the way it was presented, and the small amount of information DE have given about what they intend is a flat nope from me.

If you died 4 times before Stalker could even invade your mission, you weren't even ready for that mission let alone the invasion. Did you think your argument through beore throwing that in? Plus, everyone who isn't a new player knows that Warframe is a time consuming game. Even a Capture mission can eat a fair bit by itself if the enemies are getting in your way enough. Why would you opt to play if you know you had no real time to play anyways?

And we aren't talking about back when warframes were revives per day, this wasn't even a concept back then, but you're seriously not losing any missions because "oh stalker showed up and i didn't have a lot of time today". Explain how he's gonna screw over your extermination besides killing you like AI Stalker would. How is he going to ruin your 5 minute survival? Your sabotage? Your Capture? 5 waves of a defense can eat 20 minutes depending on spawn rates and if it bugs or not, so you wouldn't be playing that on "sparse time".

You're kind of trying to just throw things and hoping something sticks because looking through hypotheticals and realism are 2 vastly different beasts when it comes to even "pvp vs pve" concepts. But even in a Kuva Flood Stalker can't screw you over any worse than killing you or helping the Kuva minions kill you because either way, you die and Stalker is forced to leave.

Also, a mission is static to a degree once you've loaded into it. Whether or not Stalker invaded or not does not decide when your Kuva Siphon has spawned or despawned. If you lost a revive to Stalker (solo) or got knocked out and got revived (at least 1 person or the auto revive bug which is always nice to have [please don't fix it DE, its extremely useful to auto revive from bleedout]), getting affinity back, especially if there are a lot of heavy units spawning is getting you the "last few hundred MR" is a non-issue, plus don't forget that you get bonus affinity for completing the mission anyways to make up for what you lost in initial affinity.

Also, dying does not cost you resources. The only way you would lose those theoretical argon crystals is if the game glitched out (which is highly uncommon to cost you resources for going down) and no other way.

Please try for something that could ACTUALLY happen in the course of a P. Stalker vs AI Stalker spawning in that makes the concept supremely a bad idea. Rebecca showed us that attacking defense objectives isn't worth the effort considering she needed like 8 shots to drop its shields alone, taking Mag in there would nullify that threat off the bat. Stalker can't attack you after 5 minutes passes in a survival and you can always restart that mission if he's allowed to interact with the capsules, but  he also can't get too far from his target either or else he seemed to auto teleport back in range.

I haven't seen a single concrete argument against this other than "I don't like PVP and I don't want Stalker to actually be a threat to me in a mission no matter what."

[WrathAscending]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

If you died 4 times before Stalker could even invade your mission, you weren't even ready for that mission let alone the invasion.

It's entirely possible to be ready for a mission and not for the Stalker, or to be prepared for normal Stalker and not Shadow or PVP Stalker. Under normal circumstances you roll the dice and take your chances against the AI because that's what playing PVE entails. And sometimes that extra death is what stands between success and failure.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Why would you opt to play if you know you had no real time to play anyways?

There have been many times where all I have time for is a single run, especially after a long work day. I'm hardly unique in this, not everyone has a great deal of time to invest in every play session.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

You're kind of trying to just throw things and hoping something sticks because looking through hypotheticals and realism are 2 vastly different beasts when it comes to even "pvp vs pve" concepts.

I've responded directly to the way PVP in PVE advocates want to see this implemented and to how it currently stands according to what we've been shown.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

But even in a Kuva Flood Stalker can't screw you over any worse than killing you or helping the Kuva minions kill you because either way, you die and Stalker is forced to leave.

If it's your fourth death, something that can easily happen during floods due to the high enemy levels and stunlocks, that's the end of it. And with Floods on a timer that could be the last one available to you in the time you have free to play the game.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

If you died 4 times before StaAlso, a mission is static to a degree once you've loaded into it. Whether or not Stalker invaded or not does not decide when your Kuva Siphon has spawned or despawned. If you lost a revive to Stalker (solo) or got knocked out and got revived (at least 1 person or the auto revive bug which is always nice to have [please don't fix it DE, its extremely useful to auto revive from bleedout]), getting affinity back, especially if there are a lot of heavy units spawning is getting you the "last few hundred MR" is a non-issue, plus don't forget that you get bonus affinity for completing the mission anyways to make up for what you lost in initial affinity.

If you fail a mission for whatever reason you lose most gained XP, all resources or mods (let's not even consider how justifiably angry people will get if they lose a Vengeful Revenant or the like due to a PVP invasion), and credits. That may not have happened with one death less.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Please try for something that could ACTUALLY happen in the course of a P. Stalker vs AI Stalker spawning in that makes the concept supremely a bad idea.

I have. Several times. Each time I have been waved off with "Well, they just wouldn't/shouldn't implement it like that then!" And I remember well the last time that happened, before the introduction of the far less intrusive or problematic Dark Sector Conflicts. We have a history of PVP causing massive issues when mixed with PVE. The last time this was proposed it was on specific nodes, for specific periods of time, with an opt-in only mechanic.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

I haven't seen a single concrete argument against this other than "I don't like PVP and I don't want Stalker to actually be a threat to me in a mission no matter what."

For the first part of the sentence, that should be all that needs to be said. If I do not wish to engage in PVP, I should not be forced to. Nobody should. End of story. And it's not like I haven't given it enough chances. I was there in U8 for Rise of the Warlords. I fought on the first Conclave nodes. I fought in the Rail Conflicts. I tried the new Conclave when it was added and did the Conclave Tactical Alerts for Solstice and Valentine's Day. It hasn't grabbed me, nor has it interested the majority of the player base.

For the second, I have not once said I do not want the Stalker to not be a threat. Indeed, I have said- repeatedly- that if the argument is that PVE!Stalker isn't dangerous enough for some players' liking, then the solution is to increase the danger he poses by improving his AI and fighting ability. Giving someone the ability to go PVP to address this supposed issue shouldn't even be on the table. It is being used as a red herring to accuse PVE players of lacking skill or not wanting a quote-unquote "challenge" which is beyond stale.

[Zanchak]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Please, explain to me how dying 1 time (in which case that 1 death means player stalker automatically kneels and leaves and cannot enter that mission for the remaining duration again) to Stalker, player controlled or other prevents progression.

When you first started, how many times did Stalker kill you and you couldn't revive and continue on your mission as though nothing happened? Please tell me this sudden "one stalker per mission suddenly prevents progression" that you've experienced with AI stalker that would carry over into player stalker. Because I've never seen it once.

 

My thoughts stem from the idiotic remarks earlier in the thread of "don't get marked" tbh. Not only is that mindset selfish its also blind. Considering players need to farm bosses for frames its unavoidable getting marked and farming bosses when new isn't "easy", can take time and yes many lives/revives if they aren't being cheesed through by players with knowledge. I had no help with early bosses when I was new, it was a chore and not one I'd want some idiot invading for his daily ego trip kill. It'd likely turn me off playing if something I actively avoid so as not to deal with those kinds of people, could just jump in and F*** my missions up.

It could prevent progression if it occured often enough, not everyone has hours upon hours each day to spend trying to finish (bosses/planets/missions/quests/junctions) whatever, any one of which can be invaded randomly by some nub needing his power fix while some poor noob joe just lost his 4th life and all his progress to satisfy them.

Theres plenty of thoughts, reasons and explanations presented in this thread that I shouldn't need to repeat. It's not really my job to repeat them all for you, though these are my main concerns, beneath my concern of the tarnishing of a warframe character I think should remain untouched by the masses.

[BornWithTeeth]

@(PS4)Foxkid_8

"I don't like PvP," is an argument sufficient unto itself. However grindy Warframe may be, it is still a game, something people play for fun. For people who do not like PvP, being forced to engage in it will ruin their fun. That is enough of a reason to make this mode optional, so that people who like the idea can play with it, and people who don't like PvP don't have to be bothered by it.

 

Making the mode opt in would not somehow ruin the fun of those who want it...or would it?

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

No one is forcing you to deal with player controlled Stalker. He can ONLY show up at the beginning of a mission when you barely pick up anything that you can't part with. He shows up, you leave and restart the mission.

And again, I say that "as soon as you die, Stalker is forced to kneel and leave" along with "if you died FOUR TIMES BEFORE Stalker could even arrive, then you were not ready for that mission let alone his invasion". 

And if you really want to stick to the hypothetical "random player died 3 times and chose not to leave despite the obvious fact that he's doing something wrong or the enemies have gotten completely out of his controlled hand", then that's on the fault of that player for not knowing when to cut his losses, which comes down to a basic concept of "common sense". That wouldn't be pvp stalker's fault that he failed it by not leaving during his previous 3 deaths with 1 left for hightailing it back to Ordis. That would be his own fault, and that happens with or without the inclusion of a "pvp stalker", hell it can happen with regular Stalker, and it does too.

Also, since you want to stay on Kuva Floods, those stay up for like an hour or 2 when they do appear. I won't lie, I have failed them before, though mostly due to where they spawned on the map and how it can influence spawn rates. (Have you ever gone to a Flood that seemed to spawn FAR more enemies than it normally should until the room is overrun on the Mars Colony tileset?) It does suck to have certain assassins spawn there (Grustrag 3), but Stalker doesn't care about that. He comes in, his target dies, he leaves. As I've said about 4 times now, if it were G3 as the assassin in question for this, then I could understand completely. There's 3 of them, if someone goes down they can't be revived, and they don't leave once their target falls when in a squad setting. That's completely understandable and would be easily seen why it would be frowned upon if given to players. But Stalker gets the hell out of the mission once his mark "dies".

Also, about "how you see pvp in pve", I see how you disagree with it, and everyone is allowed to voice their opinions. But your examples go beyond the realm of realism and straight into the uncommon extremes within a group. Will there be some crappy Stalkers? Yes, of course there will be. Will there be some players who go into a mission ill prepared and then get invaded? Yes, it happens with even Zanuka who goes down fairly easily. Will he be able to ruin 90% of your missions? Only in the off chance that he "Can" do full damage to a defense target or he's able to trigger alarms in spy vaults, but as I keep saying, Rebecca showed that his damage against Defense Pods is worthless, and he's meant to be stealthy, so I don't see how he's able to trigger alarms either. Maybe if he unlocks the vault and fails the cipher, but then all that would mean is "don't allow the player stalker to touch the terminals".

And then you want to keep mentioning "power trips". Do you not get a power trip when you go into a mission slaughtering hundreds if not thousands of AI? Did you not get a power trip killing Stalker for the first time? Would you not get a power trip for killing multiple stalkers who are just bad and can't aim a bow or kunai (both weapons not that many people use nowadays) to save their lives? I'm sure you would, especially if you got something worthwhile from him that wasn't Heavy Impact.

And then why do you keep completely ignoring the part of "the marked players are not limited by pvp rules"? How many cheese frames can you run into in just 3 missions without the stalker system? Imagine how many cheese frames the stalker player would run into and get his &#! kicked as a result of trying to muscle in on someone who's at least smart enough to bring 1 weapon to deal with an invasion rather than come into a mission with 3 weapons not up to the task? And if the system allowed the stalker player to see what the current mark's loadout was, then that would be an understandable problem. Make it a gamble on who you target and make sure the hunter is prepared as the hunted. Will the Stalker player choose the worst possible outcome with a full squad who's preparing for an endurance mission within a defense/interception/survival? Or will he get lucky and find that solo or full squad of players all less than rank 7 and just wipe the cell like AI Stalker did and still does when a player isn't handling a syndicate or primed out weapon?

You're riding on the "I hate PVP and shouldn't be forced into it" emotional distress FAR too much to let realistic logic within your argument. If saying "I don't like this thing" was all it took, the world would be a far simpler place, but that's not how it goes. And if you're really saying that you're going to have trouble with a Dread, Kunai, and Absorb when you have full movement and all of your mods embedded in your warframe and weapons, then that's not something that a system is going to help you solve. Plus, and again, the Stalker can only join in the beginning of a mission, never in the middle and certainly never after the main objective has been completed. So if you're seriously dying in:

The first 5 waves of defense, you weren't ready.

The first 5 minutes of a survival, you weren't ready.

The first wave of an interception, you weren't ready.

Before you got the first data vault in a spy mission, you weren't ready.

Do you see the pattern mr (or mrs) "I hate PVP and Stalker"? 

And furthermore, as I've stated, in my 3 years of playing and being chased by Stalker, not once, ever one time has he even shown in an assassination, he can't show on archwing, and he can't screw you over in a Sabotage, Capture, or Exterminate outside of killing you then leaving as soon as you've gone into bleedout, therefore it's still Stalker doing what Stalker does. AI or Player Controlled. This is seriously in the lines of "I don't want Stalker to make me eat a revive or have to eat mist from an ally" over anything that would be a breaking concern.

[BornWithTeeth]

Well now, that's a wall of text insisting that it's no big deal. That in mind, it should be no problem st all to extend the 'no big deal' to cover the mode itself being optional, surely?

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Well now, that's a wall of text insisting that it's no big deal. That in mind, it should be no problem st all to extend the 'no big deal' to cover the mode itself being optional, surely?

Considering you and Ascend continue to spout that Stalker mode is the devil incarnate when there's so many ways to make it just not matter unless you go to unrealistic extremes. I don't thin you have any ground to stand on with any narcissistic comments like such. 

[BornWithTeeth]

"Make it optional" is not somehow an irrational or 'narcissistic' request.

 

 

 

Seriously? Narcissistic? Jeeps. That's me told.

Edited July 17, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[Zanchak]

Giant wall of assumptions. I have better things to do.

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

4 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

"Make it optional" is not somehow an irrational or 'narcissistic' request.

 

 

 

Seriously? Narcisstic? Jeeps. That's me told.

It is 2:30 in the morning. Give me some leeway.

Besides, Conclave may be optional, however Stalker, G3, and Zanuka are optional as well after a certain limit (G3 and Zanuka can be completely optional in your entire warframe career, but you have a whole lot more work ahead of you). Stalker is totally optional once the map is completed. I still don't see the problem.

1 minute ago, Zanchak said:

Giant wall of assumptions. I have better things to do.

That's your opinion. Doesn't make it invisible because I'm not acting on the anti-"pvp" tunnel vision you currently are.

[WrathAscending]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

No one is forcing you to deal with player controlled Stalker. He can ONLY show up at the beginning of a mission when you barely pick up anything that you can't part with. He shows up, you leave and restart the mission.

Even that, which you regard as minimal, is being forced. Quitting a mission to avoid PVP Stalker is ridiculous, that should be a strictly opt-in decision, not something another player can make you do to avoid PVP content. That it could potentially result in Stalker invades -> Quit -> Restart -> Stalker invades (either randomly or as with the mechanic shown thus far to select specific targets, which you had better believe would be used this way) over and over again is beyond ludicrous.

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

And again, I say that "as soon as you die, Stalker is forced to kneel and leave" along with "if you died FOUR TIMES BEFORE Stalker could even arrive, then you were not ready for that mission let alone his invasion".

And if you are in the final tile before extraction with no enemies spawned between you and the LZ, and Stalker puts everything on lockdown and kills you? Which has happened to me several times in the past when levelling? What then? If it happens with PVE, well, them's the breaks. If it's because someone has specifically come into your PVE mission which would otherwise have been successful for a nice spot of PVP? No. Absolutely not on.

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

But Stalker gets the hell out of the mission once his mark "dies".

What he does after getting a PK is immaterial. What is relevant is how he got there in the first place.

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

And then why do you keep completely ignoring the part of "the marked players are not limited by pvp rules"?

And? Stalker is also not limited by PVP rules. Potential player loadouts have absolutely no bearing on this, especially since the majority of the player base is not bedecked in 40-Forma finery with Arcane enhancements. Most players don't have those resources and are going to be hit a lot harder by what you're proposing. Maybe all I have to do is have a giggle and drop 40K+ slash damage from the Maim I've been charging since the mission started, but not everyone has Equinox. Maybe my Chroma can sit there out-healing the damage rate from Stalker due to his insane Elemental Ward and Vex Armour combo with paired Arcane Grace helmet and syandana sets.. Maybe my Nyx Prime sits placidly in Assimilate spamming Synoid fire. Not the point. Many, and indeed most players do not have that kind of gear at all, much less with them at all times. And they shouldn't be forced to bring even part of that to forestall a PVPer coming into PVE content to get a PK.

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

And then you want to keep mentioning "power trips". Do you not get a power trip when you go into a mission slaughtering hundreds if not thousands of AI? Did you not get a power trip killing Stalker for the first time? Would you not get a power trip for killing multiple stalkers who are just bad and can't aim a bow or kunai (both weapons not that many people use nowadays) to save their lives?

Even assuming I am on some kind of power trip, it is one I am choosing to engage with and not one that is being imposed on me. If I want to play PVE, I want to play PVE. If I wanted to play PVP, I would go and play PVP. I doubt that the PVP crowd would be so sanguine at the idea of G3, Stalker, or the Zanuka Hunter showing up out of nowhere and disrupting their game of Lunaro or Annihilation. Why should the inverse proposal merit any greater consideration? And again, accusations of being a no-skilled player who can't handle a "real" challenge are both red herrings and offensive. By any metric you would care to name, I am a skilled gamer. I have Hell or Hell DMC4 playthroughs, Dark Mode playthroughs for Witcher 2, and Solo Platinum achievements for ME3MP to back this up. Even allowing, insulting and laughable as the argument is, that I would be "challenged" by a PVP player coming after me, that is not why I play Warframe, nor is it what Warframe was designed for.

39 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Well now, that's a wall of text insisting that it's no big deal. That in mind, it should be no problem st all to extend the 'no big deal' to cover the mode itself being optional, surely?

This. All DE has to do to make me (edit: and, apparently others) happy is not make PVP content gate PVE content or progression and make it a system I can choose not to engage with. Those are hardly onerous demands, especially since PVP is already  and explicitly separated from PVE and is a system I can choose not to engage with.

I say again, if PVP content in this game was as addictive and amazing for everyone as the pro-PVP crowd claim it is there would be a lot more people engaging in PVP content. Clearly, however, it is not what most players enjoy doing, nor is it what most players want to be doing. Forcing PVP on people doing PVE content is not going to suddenly make them change their minds about it. What it will do is make them opt out of PVE content, which since they're already opting out of PVP content means they're opting out of the game entirely.

Edited July 17, 2017 by WrathAscending

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

1 minute ago, WrathAscending said:

This. All DE has to do to make me happy is not make PVP content gate PVE content and progression and make it a system I can choose not to engage with. Those are hardly onerous demands, especially since PVP is already  and explicitly separated from PVE and is a system I can choose not to engage with.

I say again, if PVP content in this game was as addictive and amazing for everyone as the pro-PVP crowd claim it is there would be a lot more people engaging in PVP content. Clearly, however, it is not what most players enjoy doing, nor is it what most players want to be doing. Forcing PVP on people doing PVE content is not going to suddenly make them change their minds about it. What it will do is make them opt out of PVE content, which since they're already opting out of PVP content means they're opting out of the game entirely.

Apparently to make PVP fun to you, it would have to be some form of race against other players of "who can kill the most grineer/corpus/infested/corrupted and extract the fastest". That's not very fun because you don't need a mode around that to do it.

2 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Even assuming I am on some kind of power trip, it is one I am choosing to engage with and not one that is being imposed on me. If I want to play PVE, I want to play PVE. If I wanted to play PVP, I would go and play PVP. I doubt that the PVP crowd would be so sanguine at the idea of G3, Stalker, or the Zanuka Hunter showing up out of nowhere and disrupting their game of Lunaro or Annihilation. Why should the inverse proposal merit any greater consideration? And again, accusations of being a no-skilled player who can't handle a "real" challenge are both red herrings and offensive. By any metric you would care to name, I am a skilled gamer. I have Hell or Hell DMC4 playthroughs, Dark Mode playthroughs for Witcher 2, and Solo Platinum achievements for ME3MP to back this up. Even allowing, insulting and laughable as the argument is, that I would be "challenged" by a PVP player coming after me, that is not why I play Warframe, nor is it what Warframe was designed for.

Considering that Lunaro and Conclave are literally in a "protected zone" and the fact that "Stalker showing up in an area with more than 4 Tenno" is a death sentence for him, why should he appear in such a controlled area? Plus, I'm sure that most of them wouldn't care because Stalker is Stalker, especially Vanilla Stalker. He dies fast and his only threat is Dread and Hate. Grineer don't exist in conclave for G3 and neither do Corpus for Zanuka, so that doesn't matter or come into play. 

Plus, did I say someone was "no talent or no skilled"? I said in the hypothetical extreme brought up that someone is so fixated that they continue to advance on a mission that's apparently so far out of their control that they've died 3 or 4 times and still refused to extract, then any losses before stalker had the opportunity to show up, in which case it would take you longer than 5 minutes to die 3 or 4 times unless you're just that bad or its a nightmare mission which is where it would be far more believable. 

Did I say you weren't a skilled player also? No. I'm sure I would have a great time playing a mission with you granted you aren't a WOF Ember or Mirage with some explosive weapon or launcher to suck up everything in the map.

9 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

And? Stalker is also not limited by PVP rules. Potential player loadouts have absolutely no bearing on this, especially since the majority of the player base is not bedecked in 40-Forma finery with Arcane enhancements. Most players don't have those resources and are going to be hit a lot harder by what you're proposing. Maybe all I have to do is have a giggle and drop 40K+ slash damage from the Maim I've been charging since the mission started, but not everyone has Equinox. Maybe my Chroma can sit there out-healing the damage rate from Stalker due to his insane Elemental Ward and Vex Armour combo. Maybe my Nyx Prime sits placidly in Assimilate spamming Synoid fire. Not the point. Many, and indeed most players do not have that kind of gear at all, much less with them at all times

Stalker is limited to 3 staple weapons that I'm sure can't be modded beyond what they give him, and you need to time your shots on your primary in order to deal most of your damage or adjust to teleporting into Hate swings. And I agree, not everyone is toting around some 9+ forma weapon and arcanes, I don't either, but everyone can sure roam with a Tonkor, Penta, Ignis, Lex/Lex Prime, Valkyr, Excaliboy, Frost, Mag, etc, all warframes that can redirect or straight up hinder Stalker through blocking his projectiles.

And as you state for your examples, true not every can do those things, but it's not limited to them either. Look for Rhino's and Iron Spray Can, look for Excaliboy and Swish Swish, Trinity can spam blessing while locking up an enemy with EV, and then shall I talk about companions as well which everyone can get and usually does have by MR 3 due to the optional quest Howl of the Kubrow? As soon as you pick up the Huras, Stalker's Dispel doesn't affect its invisibility like it does against Shade's Cloak. If you manage a Kavat as well and get your hands on the Adarza, striking it with even an accidental shot deals some pretty hefty damage to the damage source especially on a powerful hit. 

There's no end of ways to deal with Stalker when not limited by pvp rules, whether or not Stalker is or isn't himself (and why would he? It's already in our favor that we have more aggressive or passive skills to utilize against his arsenal along with our weapon choices vs a pre-selected Bow, Kunai, and Scythe, let alone that we have allies while he doesn't).

19 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

What he does after getting a PK is immaterial. What is relevant is how he got there in the first place.

No, it matters quite a bit actually because if he didn't leave as soon as you go down, then that would allow for some real nonsense such as spawn camping you for the rest of your revives if you did go down. Be glad that isn't part of the deal with this mode and that he gets 1 shot to take you out for the mission and not several.

21 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

And if you are in the final tile before extraction with no enemies spawned between you and the LZ, and Stalker puts everything on lockdown and kills you? Which has happened to me several times in the past when levelling? What then? If it happens with PVE, well, them's the breaks. If it's because someone has specifically come into your PVE mission which would otherwise have been successful for a nice spot of PVP? No. Absolutely not on.

No, because your objective has been completed. Just like other players can no longer invade on the mission due to "The objective has been completed", Stalker won't be able to interfere anymore as you will have be labeled as "The Tenno has escaped" or whatever the text was on Rebecca's screen in Prime Time.

23 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Even that, which you regard as minimal, is being forced. Quitting a mission to avoid PVP Stalker is ridiculous, that should be a strictly opt-in decision, not something another player can make you do to avoid PVP content. That it could potentially result in Stalker invades -> Quit -> Restart -> Stalker invades (either randomly or as with the mechanic shown thus far to select specific targets, which you had better believe would be used this way) over and over again is beyond ludicrous.

It really isn't. You make a simple choice like you've always done when Stalker has invaded your mission before. You settle down and fight him win or lose, or you leave and reset the mission because it's only been 30s to 4 minutes since he invaded. But someone has to be dedicated to you with a hate boner to continue chasing you in the way you describe and that's just not realistic unless you've made a fair number of enemies in your career.

[WrathAscending]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Apparently to make PVP fun to you, it would have to be some form of race against other players of "who can kill the most grineer/corpus/infested/corrupted and extract the fastest". That's not very fun because you don't need a mode around that to do it.

We already have that mode. It's called Extermination. I don't really get the fuss but some players like having big kill counts and getting out of there fast.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Considering that Lunaro and Conclave are literally in a "protected zone" and the fact that "Stalker showing up in an area with more than 4 Tenno" is a death sentence for him, why should he appear in such a controlled area?

Many reasons. Primary among them being that Conclave is where people who want to do PVP go to do PVP. PVE is where people who want to do PVE go instead. In addition to that, if what the pro-PVP Stalker crowd want to see happen is a challenging attack on prepared players, the easiest way to ensure that is to make a separate mode for it. If the PVP and novelty of playing the Stalker are the key selling features, those alone should be enough. Instead, it seems that the ability to force PVP on players who want nothing to do with it is the highest consideration.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

Plus, did I say someone was "no talent or no skilled"?

Directly? Not in so many words. Other pro-PVP players have said so flat-out, and the way you phrase things makes your posts read as though that is very much what you want to say.

 

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

It really isn't. You make a simple choice like you've always done when Stalker has invaded your mission before. You settle down and fight him win or lose, or you leave and reset the mission because it's only been 30s to 4 minutes since he invaded. But someone has to be dedicated to you with a hate boner to continue chasing you in the way you describe and that's just not realistic unless you've made a fair number of enemies in your career.

Except that under your proposal, PVP players are able to target people who do not want to play any kind of PVP unless they either never kill bosses, which is required to progress in normal PVE content or set the game exclusively to solo mode, which defeats the point of being in a MP game at all for those of us who enjoy the social aspect.

As far as griefing individual players goes, it's literally one of the first things we saw the system used to do.

 

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

1 minute ago, WrathAscending said:

Except that under your proposal, PVP players are able to target people who do not want to play any kind of PVP unless they either never kill bosses, which is required to progress in normal PVE content or set the game exclusively to solo mode, which defeats the point of being in a MP game at all for those of us who enjoy the social aspect.

As far as griefing individual players goes, it's literally one of the first things we saw the system used to do.

If playing in solo mode is "defeating the purpose of playing a MP game", there are a LOT of people who've been playing incorrectly over the last 3 years already. If they play solo before or after Stalker mode, then it's no difference, they're still playing solo. 

I also never said that it couldn't be used to grief, never once did I deny that it couldn't be. But how you've been subjecting it was like as soon as it came out every single invasion would be a griefing opportunity. Some players might come in wanting to see how Stalker plays as an extra ally (Rebecca tried in that capture and got shot in the back anyways, so in essence she got griefed instead). Some players might be that &#! hole and want to grief you, that exists across the internet as a whole in small communities of the larger pool of players. But there will still be those who come in, kill you, and leave after in a businesslike manner. There's all manner of people, not all of them are deplorable.

5 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Directly? Not in so many words. Other pro-PVP players have said so flat-out, and the way you phrase things makes your posts read as though that is very much what you want to say.

 

Here's how it is with me just for a future reference. If I want to call you bad, I will call you bad as blunt as possible. There's no need to circle around the conclusion. trash players will be called trash, annoying players will be called annoying or a nuisance. A good player will be complimented about it. That's all there is to it.

7 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Many reasons. Primary among them being that Conclave is where people who want to do PVP go to do PVP. PVE is where people who want to do PVE go instead. In addition to that, if what the pro-PVP Stalker crowd want to see happen is a challenging attack on prepared players, the easiest way to ensure that is to make a separate mode for it. If the PVP and novelty of playing the Stalker are the key selling features, those alone should be enough. Instead, it seems that the ability to force PVP on players who want nothing to do with it is the highest consideration.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

You're seriously speaking as if you know that someone is trying to target you and you just don't want to put up with that person who has a hate boner for you. Your weapons are vastly superior and suited to multiple jobs than Stalker's arsenal. Explosives and automatics are superior to single fire shortbows (it is a shortbow right?) such as the Dread. Automatic pistols, explosives such as the Angstrum, and hand cannons (Lex) work better on a shot by shot basis than the Despair. Every weapon in the Heavy weapon and Hammer category beats the Hate, and according to their "weapon chart", Hammers are "Super popular" so....take it as you will I guess?

16 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

We already have that mode. It's called Extermination. I don't really get the fuss but some players like having big kill counts and getting out of there fast.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

You mean like Survival? Because I can brag all day in an exterminate how I got 70% of the enemies by being Equinox/Ember/Mirage/Excaliboy and just running through with the 4th ability or doppleganger and any WMD since its a limited spawn vs Survival or Defense or Interception with infinite spawns and you can actually race it with your friends for better numbers. Say you bring Ember vs Nidus in exterminate vs survival. Ember wins exterminate, Nidus wins in survival unless that Ember has a weapon to make up for the WOF falloff damage. But no one really cares about that "press 4 and run around" player who brags after because that's not exactly a badge of honor.

[WrathAscending]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

If playing in solo mode is "defeating the purpose of playing a MP game", there are a LOT of people who've been playing incorrectly over the last 3 years already. If they play solo before or after Stalker mode, then it's no difference, they're still playing solo.

You omitted the other half of that sentence, where I talked about players wanting to enjoy the social aspect of a multiplayer game oriented to PVE without PVP incursions. "Well, just solo" and "well just don't kill bosses even though you need to in order to progress through the star map, access and complete quests, and gain items to level" are not satisfactory answers.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

I also never said that it couldn't be used to grief, never once did I deny that it couldn't be. But how you've been subjecting it was like as soon as it came out every single invasion would be a griefing opportunity. Some players might come in wanting to see how Stalker plays as an extra ally (Rebecca tried in that capture and got shot in the back anyways, so in essence she got griefed instead). Some players might be that &#! hole and want to grief you, that exists across the internet as a whole in small communities of the larger pool of players. But there will still be those who come in, kill you, and leave after in a businesslike manner. There's all manner of people, not all of them are deplorable.

The nonsensical "Stalker as a buddy" option aside, even without considering how lore-breaking, immersion-breaking, and just plain unlikely it is, you're still arguing that people who want to engage in PVP should be able to force that on people who don't. As it stands, there is literally no way for PVE to force itself onto PVP, and nor should there be. Why should the reverse be true? I couldn't care less how "businesslike" a PVPer might be with their desire to take my scalp in a nonconsensual PVP battle, I do not want them in my game. If they really want to engage in PVP battles, Conclave is right there and waiting for them. It's under-played as it is, after all.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

You're seriously speaking as if you know that someone is trying to target you and you just don't want to put up with that person who has a hate boner for you.

I've been randomly and repeatedly matched with people who made use of Radiation Sortie procs to score repeated TPKs and cause mission failures to prevent people from gaining Sortie rewards because that amused them. I can remember one player doing it in two separate missions and then having to ALT+F4 when I saw their name as joining the squad in the third before switching to solo to ensure they couldn't do it again. Of course it is going to be used to grief specific players and nodes, which I remind you we have seen in action at TennoCon. But supposing they make it a blind matching system, it would still be nonconsensual PVP in PVE content, something I am axiomatically opposed to. If everyone involved is willingly signing on and there's nothing for PVE being gated behind PVP content? Stalker invade to your heart's content, I'll just switch the option off and go about my business.

 

Edited July 17, 2017 by WrathAscending