De Please Consider: Vote Kick Will Be Abused

[WhisperByte]

Just now in the livestream you mentioned that you are going to add some sort Vote Kick feature to deal with griefers, trolls, afkers and leachers.

The problem with that is that while it gives us tools to deal with them it also gives them tools to grief other players by kicking them right before they finish off bosses, reaching extraction, etc

 

Just a thing you should consider that maybe a better system is in order

[PsychedelicSnake]

Not if they do it correctly.

[Cleesus]

I  mean if its group vote kick it will be fine. Its really needed at this point.

[EetNotErn]

I don't think we need it either. I've played a LOT. Over 250 hours and probably only encountered one or two leechers. As for griefing? I don't think I've ever seen anyone griefing, except if you consider Vaubans putting Bounce in front of you at the end of the mission griefing. Vote kicking may or may not be abused but I don't think it's necessary.

[Skytt]

I was just about to make a thread on this.

 

I think this is a bad idea and you ultimately need a more sophisticated system that includes some kind of reputation/report-based system, like players having the ability to flag someone as a griefer/AFKer/etc, and also having player activity tracked in a way that it could be verified so people can't just have all their 1000-player clan reputation-bomb them.  If this is necessary anyway, I generally haven't run into many problems when I play online with randoms, though I don't do it very often.

 

Why vote-to-kick is a bad idea if that's all you do:  Griefers will join in groups of 3 and boot the 4th guy right before whatever limit you set as the last point you can be kicked, whether that's all the way up to extraction or if you try to restrict it so no more kicking after objective is completed or something.

 

Also, please don't implement an auto-idle kick, or if you do, make it optional for the host.  Sometimes a friend has to run to the bathroom and everyone else in the group is fine 3-manning it and carrying them til they get back.  It'll probably also be circumvented by anyone who cares to do so, wasting the time you spent creating it.

[Tsukinoki]

All it will take for some people to come rageing at the forums is any of the following:

-Kicked because they didnt like the frame you were playing, such as "How dare you play mag!" and kicking

I have actually seen groups disband when a Mag joined simply so they dont play a mission with a mag user. Same will happen with Vauban or Loki.

-Kicked right before boss finish, or extraction, especially during alerts. Why? For the lulz if you ever get 2 or more trolls this WILL happen.

-Kicked because their friend/clanmate just got online and they want to play with them rather than you.

The list will definately be longer than this once this feature is implemented.

A blacklist would have solved everyones problem and not given a much bigger trolling/griefing tools to those people.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[liavalenth]

AKF 1 minute then Vote Kick, most problems with abuse are solved right there. Although that only effects AFK, but that is OK because it is the largest issue.

EDIT: Seriously though this has been argued to death, please see the other threads;

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/81030-can-you-please-implement-a-way-to-kick-afk-players

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/77168-afk-kick

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76108-can-we-get-anything-to-kick-players

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/73766-afk-leechers-idle-players

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/72771-afk-at-endless-defense-start/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/72298-vote-kick-function/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76047-a-lack-of-a-kick-option

There are more. A lot more.

Edited July 17, 2013 by liavalenth

[Sherbniz]

Everything "can be abused".

But cutting down on crucial features like this because they "can be abused" is just a loss for regular players, and a victory for benign ones.

As a fix to getting trolled out of rewards by a kick, just moving onto your own session instead of being booted entirely could help.

Can't be done on Orokin Missions, due to the nature of the keys though.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Sherbniz

[Callback]

100% agree.  Way too easy for a 3 troll premade with 1 open slot to abuse it.  Vote kicking should at MOST boot the player to a private instance so they can't completely screw you over, never take them out of the mission.  Also improve host migration so drops on the ground migrate as well, so they can't just kick as soon as a blueprint drops from a boss and make it vanish.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Callback

[Tsukinoki]

@Sherbniz

And a blacklist could have solved all of the issues WITHOUT having a way to be abused.

@Callback

And while that would be nice to have the drops there, the most common issue with a host migration? It kicks the user back to the menus.

Think of what this will do for alerts.

And have they even tried to think what this will mean for void missions?

You host the void mission and then have the others kick you on purpose.

Everyone else just got a free void mission AND you didn't use up your key because its not used on abandon or failure!

And think how many people will be pissed to go through an entire void mission, especially one of the new ones, only to be kicked right before the objective is completed and having wasted how much time? For absolutely no gain?

This is a very bad move on DEs part.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[LynxLotus]

When i heard about kicking, i was thinking of something like this;

 

Well, lets say there are one player afk. Then someone uses the option to kick, and then a vote comes up. X if you agree with the kick, and Y if you disagree.. Of course there should be options like '' i want this ''player'' to be kicked because he is afk/or other reasons'' so those who vote know why he should be kicked.. Get me?

[Voidcrash]

Blacklist is a much better feature.

[Tsukinoki]

Think of the games where you just have a bunch of trolls sitting around kicking whenever someone joins!  And all it would take is one person.

They host a match and do the kick option.  So you are kicked, afterall in a 2 player match it would only take one vote to kick you.

So what would happen is this:
You join a match and are kicked.
You join the next one and the same.

If that starts happening on mercury you'll see a bunch of new players alienated from the game because of trolls constantly kicking them.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Junkz]

Just add the mini hack game at the start of the game - only take a few seconds to do - when the time runs out u get removed.

[liavalenth]

Think of the games where you just have a bunch of trolls sitting around kicking whenever someone joins!  And all it would take is one person.

They host a match and do the kick option.  So you are kicked, afterall in a 2 player match it would only take one vote to kick you.

So what would happen is this:

You join a match and are kicked.

You join the next one and the same.

If that starts happening on mercury you'll see a bunch of new players alienated from the game because of trolls constantly kicking them.

I love all the assumptions made to make Vote Kicks seem bad.

[Tsukinoki]

@liavalenth
And have you ever been in games with vote kicks?

All of those things happen.

Repeatedly.

There wont be anything different in this game.

It'll be abused and people will rage about it.

[Khranitel]

100% agree.  Way too easy for a 3 troll premade with 1 open slot to abuse it.  Vote kicking should at MOST boot the player to a private instance so they can't completely screw you over, never take them out of the mission.  Also improve host migration so drops on the ground migrate as well, so they can't just kick as soon as a blueprint drops from a boss and make it vanish.

 

Think of the games where you just have a bunch of trolls sitting around kicking whenever someone joins!  And all it would take is one person.

They host a match and do the kick option.  So you are kicked, afterall in a 2 player match it would only take one vote to kick you.

So what would happen is this:

You join a match and are kicked.

You join the next one and the same.

If that starts happening on mercury you'll see a bunch of new players alienated from the game because of trolls constantly kicking them.

 

Trolls! Trolls everywhere! Don't leave your homes!

Seriously, people, how do you use internet at all, if you're so afraid of trolls stalking you?

[Khranitel]

@liavalenth

And have you ever been in games with vote kicks?

All of those things happen.

Repeatedly.

There wont be anything different in this game.

It'll be abused and people will rage about it.

I did.

No.

No.

No.

Speak for yourself.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Khranitel

[impulse42]

after my experience with the left 4 dead vote kick system... Dear god I hope they don't put this in, vote kick is never a giood idea because it relies on human input. which is not a good idea considering how flaud, selfish, and cruel human beings are. I agree some type of kick system needs to be put in, but vote kick is a terrible option IMO after seeing it be used in other games.

[Tsukinoki]

@Khranitel
I have seen in the warframe forum a few threads about "trollban and lokis" and a lot of people have said: "I hope we get a vote kick feature so we can kick them if they ever join our games."

That speaks quite a bit about this community.

Further, a blacklist solution completely AVOIDS any trolling from its use and will slowly filter the trolls out of the community without allowing them to use the tool to troll.

Further, it brings up issues with the void:
You host a T3 Void mission.
You get your clan mates to kick you.
They finish the T3 void mission.
Your key wasn't used up and they just got a free T3 void mission...

[Carcharias]

Not if they do it correctly.

And how exactly is that? I've seen kicking (including vote) features before in other games. I haven't seen one that couldn't be trolled with.

 

Blacklist is a much better feature.

Agreed. This would be almost bullet proof if a little time consuming.

 

I love all the assumptions made to make Vote Kicks seem bad.

Dude really? Is this your first MMO? Saying that people will use the vote kick for prejudicial reasons (trolling) is not an assumption, it's the result of other MMOs that have implemented a vote kick and having witnessed it in action. Unless you're claiming that the players of this game by it self are so mature that they would only ever kick people who "deserve" it. And if you really believe that send me a pm, I live in San Fransisco and I happen to have a bridge for sale that I'll make you a great deal on.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Carcharias

[Drusus]

Blacklist is a much better feature.

As has been said, repeatedly, for months now and I agree with you 100%.

The vote kick feature request is suited to environments where you have a large enough player pool in a game session to establish a meaningful and more difficult to abuse majority.

The max team size for WarFrame is 4.

Assuming 1 person is the one to be kicked, that means there are a maximum of 3 possible voters at any given time.

It is likely to assume in many cases, there will only be 1 or 2 available voters in non-full teams.

So now we have a system where a 'majority' vote takes only ever 2 people out of 4, 50% exactly, to dictate the impact to other players.

Does vote kicking work if it's a 2 man team then and one person votes to kick the other?

A blacklist feature is organic and superior in every respect save possibly one; the need to do the screening check when people seek to connect to one another that requires database comparisons and lookups. However, it should be easy enough to do a 'Do I exist in the team's blacklist or do they exist in mine?' on joining a session. Yes, it's a query, but one would hope a manageable one (this may not be true, depending, impossible for me to say with certainty, hence why I say 'hope')

Blacklisting ensures you put up with a jerk only once.

Vote Kicking means you will very likely have repetitious conflicts and exposures working with a 'majority' mechanic that operates in a very limited pool size.

It's the wrong tool for the right job, in my opinion.

[Tsukinoki]

@Drusus
Exactly.

As for blacklists its just a simple: "Do any players in this group exist on my black lists or do I exist on any of theirs?" if true then dont join and join the next one.  Eventually the trolls will be filtered out an unable to join anyones matches.

With the kick feature what you'll see is trolls camping the major nodes in mercury.  Join ther match get immeadiently kicked.
See how many new players will keep with the game once that starts happening.

And it leads to other abuses.
The group doesn't want to play with your frame?  kicked
One of their friends/clanmates just got on? Kicked
You didn't bring the "proper" loadout? kicked

A vote kick is far to abusable.

[Phatose]

You know, you can probably make vote kicking useless as a griefing tool if, instead of just flat out kicking you from the match entirely, it simply splits you off.  If the objective is already completed, you go a copy of the game locked to solo.  If it's not, you just go into an open copy of the game with the other players split off.

 

The potential to do any meaningful damage gets largely removed, while maintaining the benefit of getting you away from problem players.

 

Wouldn't work in Orokin Voids, but I don't see that as a huge issue.

[Tsukinoki]

@Phatose
And that is IF the host migration works.
In most cases the *least* that you lose is any boss drops.

You wanted their resources or BPs?  To bad, you were kicked before you could pick them up.  You're run was now a waste of time.

And it currently has other issues.

Host migrations will remove the Nightmare effect but keep the nightmare mods, making it abusable for gains.
Host migrations commonly drop to menus as well.  Think of an alert for a bp you desperately wanted....but you were kicked before extraction and are back at the menus!

A vote kick has far too many opportunities to be abused with only 4 people that can vote.