Feedback: Stunlock, Staggering, Action Disruption, Loss of Control - Not Cool. Please turn it down.

[Zinn]

Eh, I think you should read my post again, Redler. I support Cedric but my point is that infested are pretty easy as long as you use guns. I regularly run low level frames and weapons with terrible mods (almost every decent mod I have requires Rank 30) and I rarely have any problems with them, except that one time I ran out of ammo and had to use rank 3 Dual Zoren to chop up a level 22 Ancient Distruptor. That was my fault, though, for not bringing a decent melee weapon to a level 17-25 alert mission when I had decided it would totally be a good idea to level my Rank 7 Boltor and 8 AkBolto.

All I did was specify why I thought having a general title of "Feedback: Stunlock, Staggering; Action Distruption, Loss of Control - Not Cool, Please Turn It Down" is misleading if his OP only deals with Infested. The OP is what 99% of viewers will read before commenting, so they will see it is "lol, he isn't shooting at the only faction that can't shoot back" instead of "stun mechanics are bad in its current form and the Infested are champions of it".

@Zakalwe:

I believe that you are looking at it from the wrong point of view: Stop seeing it as a matter of difficulty and start seeing it as what the topic is about: The tools the infested use and any other unit that stuns. There is a faction in the game that does nothing but stun you as their only tool. There is no regular melee hit without stun, the explosions stun, the charges from Ancients stun, the hits from Ancients stun, the Chargers stun, the Leapers stun - Everything stuns or staggers you, taking control away from your character. It is never claimed that this is difficult anywhere, merely that it's boring and a counter-intuitive mechanic in a game that is all about speed and style. They give you sprint speed mods, charge speed mods, melee speed mods, power range mods (works on rhino charge, teleport etc.), wall running, ninja flipping, sliding, rolling and jumping - All things meant to increase your speed and progression through the map.

However, instead of countering you in a way that would make you have to use your weapons (eg. spawning powerful or varied units that requires cover to beat, not just a single heavy), they introduce a mechanic that simply stops you, period. You can do nothing once you're hit by it, you just flat out stop: No ninja roll or flip as an action to avoid it after a hit, no way of fast recovery from the ground, no real dodge mechanic that requires skill at that point. Then on top of that, they have a spawn mechanic that, instead of intensifying when you're doing well and progressing quickly, requiring you to step it up and use wall runs, boxes etc. to avoid enemies while moving, punishes you severely for getting hit without a way to keep moving. It starts spawning ranged units first, if it's Grineer, but when that isn't working, it spawns more and more Grinders to keep you locked forever. Infested simply chain stun you with explosions, Chargers and Leapers.

This is a bad mechanic and even worse when an entire faction revolves entirely around it.

[Ced23Ric]

What he said.

[RainDreamer]

I agree. The bad thing about stun/knock down at the moment, is that the player have no way to regain control of the situation once the chain starts. But, I don't think just removing it works. It would be better if the players have in their hand a way to break the chain and counter it. Then, it is more of player skill to pull something like that off.

I think a nice way to counter this, is to have 2 things:

1. A block mechanic. You can use block to defend yourself against attacks (maybe even against bullets! slicing bullets/deflecting them with melee weapon would be so cool), and cannot be stunned/knock down in that stance. It will cost you stamina to block, but it would save you from being stunned/knockdown by one lucky infested, and then all of them gang up on you.

2. A recovery mechanic. When you are knocked down, perhaps it should be possible for you to flip out of that state with another press of the button, with stamina cost, but it would distance yourself from your attacker. Another way would be having a 360 melee spin attack as you get up to knock them all away.

Edited February 3, 2013 by RainDreamer

[Zakalwe]

@Zakalwe:

I believe that you are looking at it from the wrong point of view: Stop seeing it as a matter of difficulty and start seeing it as what the topic is about: The tools the infested use and any other unit that stuns. There is a faction in the game that does nothing but stun you as their only tool. There is no regular melee hit without stun, the explosions stun, the charges from Ancients stun, the hits from Ancients stun, the Chargers stun, the Leapers stun - Everything stuns or staggers you, taking control away from your character. It is never claimed that this is difficult anywhere, merely that it's boring and a counter-intuitive mechanic in a game that is all about speed and style. They give you sprint speed mods, charge speed mods, melee speed mods, power range mods (works on rhino charge, teleport etc.), wall running, ninja flipping, sliding, rolling and jumping - All things meant to increase your speed and progression through the map.

Look, I understand that. I've already explained it.

Let me try once more...

The infected are limited as all they seem to have as a tool is stun. However, I've never ever found this to be in any way frustrating or game breaking or off-putting. I can deal with them without these mechanics being an issue, so I very rarely experience them.

Difficulty is very much a point to consider. Players of lessser skill or experience will undoubtably be stunned/KD'd more, so they will have more experience of frustration with the mechanics. What we need to discover is: is the level of skill required to overcome these mechanics to the point they're not a noticable problem near enough to the average gamer's skill?

Here's a very good post from ruivoml regarding what I mean: https://forums.warfr...dpost__p__66265

I'm not trying to elevate myself or call anyone bad, but this is something to consider.

As I've not had a problem with it and I consider myself pretty decent a the game, is my experience relative enough to the average that it can be considered more than an outlier?

I'd like to say when I'm stunnd I don't find it annoying, but KD's recovery time is too long and the one time I was stun-locked in a chain was pretty annoying. If there were a way to apply skill to break free/speed up recovery, it would g oa long way to fixing this issue for those who experience the mechanics enough for them to be this frsutrating.

However, instead of countering you in a way that would make you have to use your weapons (eg. spawning powerful or varied units that requires cover to beat, not just a single heavy), they introduce a mechanic that simply stops you, period. You can do nothing once you're hit by it, you just flat out stop: No ninja roll or flip as an action to avoid it after a hit, no way of fast recovery from the ground, no real dodge mechanic that requires skill at that point. Then on top of that, they have a spawn mechanic that, instead of intensifying when you're doing well and progressing quickly, requiring you to step it up and use wall runs, boxes etc. to avoid enemies while moving, punishes you severely for getting hit without a way to keep moving. It starts spawning ranged units first, if it's Grineer, but when that isn't working, it spawns more and more Grinders to keep you locked forever. Infested simply chain stun you with explosions, Chargers and Leapers.

This is a bad mechanic and even worse when an entire faction revolves entirely around it.

It's an annoying mechanic to fall fowl of, but then I've managed to avoid stun lock almost entirley, and KD and stuns in general rarely get me (to the point I forget stun-lock is even a part of the game). And I don't cheese, or crawl through levels, I just play.

I'm more curious than anything as I've never considered these things a problem.

Infected are boring to fight because all they do is zerg, sponge, and stun, but the only mechanic that is really bad here is the bullet-sponge, imo. The stun and KD stuff feels, to me at least, like a pretty balanced punishment for not killing efficiently. The problem is more that the duration of stuns and KDs are too long, and there should be some skilled based way to avoid them or increase recover time (perhaps some kind of timed button press something akin to Street Fighter's thrwo recovery).

The game is heading in the wrong direction, though, I agree, with too much focus being on new enemies repeating the same old stun/kd mechanics over and over.

What they need to do is improve player reaction to these things and to expand the toolset of certain enemies. not remove what's there.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Dr3dd]

dudes skill level is 177 no wonder he made this post

[Mak_Gohae]

It is never claimed that this is difficult anywhere, merely that it's boring and a counter-intuitive mechanic in a game that is all about speed and style. They give you sprint speed mods, charge speed mods, melee speed mods, power range mods (works on rhino charge, teleport etc.), wall running, ninja flipping, sliding, rolling and jumping - All things meant to increase your speed and progression through the map.

You know if a player is ACTUALLY using all that speed and style the stunning is going to be kept down to an extreme minimum.

The outside of the tentacle attacks from Ancients that speed and style is going to keep you away from all other infested attacks.

[Blatantfool]

I don't mind enemies with stuns. I do mind chain-stunning.

They ought to consider a grace period after a stun just long enough to try to trigger some escape tool or react to your situation.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Ced23Ric]

dudes skill level is 177 no wonder he made this post

True. It is 177 now, because I am playing level 12 Nyx. My regular skill level is around 700 to 900.

[Zakalwe]

dudes skill level is 177 no wonder he made this post

There's no need for this, Dr3dd. Skill levels fluctuate, they're absolute no marker for overall ability any more than the other stats are.

We're trying to have a decent discussion here. Please try to refrain from making blunt posts like this, all it does is escalate things needlessly.

You know if a player is ACTUALLY using all that speed and style the stunning is going to be kept down to an extreme minimum.

The outside of the tentacle attacks from Ancients that speed and style is going to keep you away from all other infested attacks.

This is part of my point regarding difficulty being a valid part of the discussion.

I don't mind enemies with stuns. I do mind chain-stunning.

They ought to consider a grace period after a stun just long enough to try to trigger some escape tool or react to your situation.

Yep. Chain stunning is a horrid, horrid mechanic in any game.

I've not found it an issue as it's only happened to me once that I can recall, but I guess even if it is easy to avoid it shouldn't be there.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Rivy]

Look, I understand that. I've already explained it.

Let me try once more...

The infected are limited as all they seem to have as a tool is stun. However, I've never ever found this to be in any way frustrating or game breaking or off-putting. I can deal with them without these mechanics being an issue, so I very rarely experience them.

Difficulty is very much a point to consider. Players of lessser skill or experience will undoubtably be stunned/KD'd more, so they will have more experience of frustration with the mechanics. What we need to discover is: is the level of skill required to overcome these mechanics to the point they're not a noticable problem near enough to the average gamer's skill?

Here's a very good post from ruivoml regarding what I mean: https://forums.warfr...dpost__p__66265

I'm not trying to elevate myself or call anyone bad, but this is something to consider.

As I've not had a problem with it and I consider myself pretty decent a the game, is my experience relative enough to the average that it can be considered more than an outlier?

I'd like to say when I'm stunnd I don't find it annoying, but KD's recovery time is too long and the one time I was stun-locked in a chain was pretty annoying. If there were a way to apply skill to break free/speed up recovery, it would g oa long way to fixing this issue for those who experience the mechanics enough for them to be this frsutrating.

It's an annoying mechanic to fall fowl of, but then I've managed to avoid stun lock almost entirley, and KD and stuns in general rarely get me (to the point I forget stun-lock is even a part of the game). And I don't cheese, or crawl through levels, I just play.

I'm more curious than anything as I've never considered these things a problem.

Infected are boring to fight because all they do is zerg, sponge, and stun, but the only mechanic that is really bad here is the bullet-sponge, imo. The stun and KD stuff feels, to me at least, like a pretty balanced punishment for not killing efficiently. The problem is more that the duration of stuns and KDs are too long, and there should be some skilled based way to avoid them or increase recover time (perhaps some kind of timed button press something akin to Street Fighter's thrwo recovery).

The game is heading in the wrong direction, though, I agree, with too much focus being on new enemies repeating the same old stun/kd mechanics over and over.

What they need to do is improve player reaction to these things and to expand the toolset of certain enemies. not remove what's there.

So basically you are saying that it's okay to have to fight the most frustrating and boring faction ever just because you can beat them ?

Being able to succeed doesn't make a good game.

It might not be a problem for you personally (because, you know, people are different and all that), but I'd bet most people don't enjoy this. I for one, stopped playing Infestation missions.

[Blatantfool]

Yep. Chain stunning is a horrid, horrid mechanic in any game.

I've not found it an issue as it's only happened to me once that I can recall, but I guess even if it is easy to avoid it shouldn't be there.

The last instance of it that I recall happened because Infected got stacked up behind a 'Yellow' Doorway. Once I hit the button and the wave was unleash I was almost immediately hit with a leaper. He only really clipped me and I did see it coming, I just didn't quite get out of the way. Next thing you know I'm surrounded by Chargers and there is an Ancient around to spam Tendril at me.

It is avoidable usually but still has an ugly tendency to happen in situation like that and once it starts it is pretty frustrating. No different in fairness then an instagib. It takes you right out of the play since you get locked up.

They should consider giving certain skills for specific Warframes 'Stun-Break' status. Allow you to use them to end a stun or stagger immediately/give immunity to stun or stagger while you use them. That is a possible and pretty cool sounding solution.

Or they could go with a much simpler grace period that gives time to rev up a single skill.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Ced23Ric]

Okay, Zak, I'll come back for one more round.

Let's say, we are talking about the warm-up period of Diesel cars. If you come in and suggest to just drive a car with regular gas, does this make the warm-up period of Diesel cars go away? No, it does not. It only means that you can bypass it by driving a different engine'd car. That is my point. My point it, the warm-up period is too long. Even if I could just drive a regular car, the Diesel still has a warm-up for the coils. Me driving a regular engine does not change that fact.

Now apply this to this topic.

Yes, you can dodge the stun. I do it all the time forever. I can solo any mission you throw at me, even if Xini might be a bit more on the hard side. I don't have problems finishing Infested missions. Clearly, difficulty is not the issue for me. Nevertheless, what remains, regardless of whether one can avoid the mechanism itself, the toolbox of Infested contains stun mechanics for every unit. No exception. That part, I am pointing out and I would like to see changed.

Please just post: "I understand what you are saying and see where you are coming from." - anything else will make my head explode.

[neKroMancer]

Stunlock is a bad mechanic. Taking away controlfrom player in fast pace co-op game is a bad way to create artificial difficulty.

Any ME3MP burnout would understand the pain that the Geth, stunlock robot, has been been inflicting upon players' sanity since March last year. The Infest follow th same trend. A faction without any outstanding feature given the most frustrating mechanic to create a threat and difficulty.

While it's cheesy to stand/kite and shoot all of them to oblivion with Hek/Strun/Gorgon. Tactic against Infest is limited to either kite them around the room and shoot or climb somewhere high and shoot. That's going against what DE described Warframe 'Fast pace, co-op, TPS action'. The introduction of charger just magnify the problem with this mechanic even further since they're tough, fast, and able to chain stunlock player to death without giving any breathing room. Originally, there were multiple thread complaining the number of Ancient spawned simultaneously. The Ancients aren't really problematic if you have the right weapon to deal with them but when one manage to catch you. Prepare for death by stunlock, No.1 cause of death from Infest.

Like Ced posted, Infest units rely on stun mechanic, pure stun mechanic. Nothing else. From lowly charger to the mighty ancient.

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Infest needs to be reworked.

[Mak_Gohae]

Okay, Zak, I'll come back for one more round.

Let's say, we are talking about the warm-up period of Diesel cars. If you come in and suggest to just drive a car with regular gas, does this make the warm-up period of Diesel cars go away? No, it does not. It only means that you can bypass it by driving a different engine'd car. That is my point. My point it, the warm-up period is too long. Even if I could just drive a regular car, the Diesel still has a warm-up for the coils. Me driving a regular engine does not change that fact.

Now apply this to this topic.

Yes, you can dodge the stun. I do it all the time forever. I can solo any mission you throw at me, even if Xini might be a bit more on the hard side. I don't have problems finishing Infested missions. Clearly, difficulty is not the issue for me. Nevertheless, what remains, regardless of whether one can avoid the mechanism itself, the toolbox of Infested contains stun mechanics for every unit. No exception. That part, I am pointing out and I would like to see changed.

Use a welding torch to warm that sucker up, aka, tactics.

Please just post: "I understand what you are saying and see where you are coming from." - anything else will make my head explode.

I think pretty much everyone does but you seem to have a problem with people offering different opinions.

Everyone knows that all the Infested stagger even the vomit dudes, do those stagger? I dunno.... i never got close....

Anyway, everyone knows this but some people do not feel the same way you do becasue they found ways to deal with that mechanic and they are fine with using those tactics.

You want more diversirty in the Infested? Cool. But they are not broken or the game doesnt have something wrong with it if the makers decided that the Infested stay as an in-your-face enemies. That's simply the way the maker decided they wanted this enemy to behave.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Zakalwe]

regardless of whether one can avoid the mechanism itself, the toolbox of Infested contains stun mechanics for every unit. No exception.

I agrree with this statement, entirley. I would like more diversity in the infected.

That's not what the only thing your OP is suggesting, though, your OP is also hinting at the difficluty of avoidng these things when you've written:

It is about the systematic build-up of an entire faction around the concept of stunning the player, taking control away from him so he cannot run away or dodge the attacks of a faction that has low threat bubbles. The solution here has been sticking to the blunt tool, and forcing the players into sitting it out, instead of picking new tools. So, I am watching with growing frustration, as levels progress, how my skill becomes irrelevant once the stun chain started. I cannot punch out, I cannot flip-kick-jerk away, I am stuck, without control. It's worse than Shockwave MOAs. Why? Those, I can hear, see coming, and jump over. Have you ever tried jumping away from a Runner?

Skill is relevant before you get put in the position of being messed up by the mechanics. The underlined text (and other parts of the OP) suggests to us that you fall victim of the mechanics often, and you say in absolutes that this is a problem for everyone when it's clearly not a problem for everyone. I'm trying to discover where the mean is so we can use it as a proper baseline for consideration.

My points are these (I've written it clearly, but I'll try once more...):

1. Is the difficulty of avoiding the mehcanics too high for the average gamer, which would lead to them falling victim to the punishment too often?

2. If the average gamer can avoid stuns/locks and KD's effciently, is it anything more than a variety of enemy attack issue?

3. Is a mechanic that is this frustrating, no matter how easy/difficulty to avoid, something that should be included at all?

Why bring this up?

Even if we introduce a skill-based recovery, is the current level of difficulty in avoiding the mechanics in line with the average enough that we're not going to constantly be recovering from their effects? Because even if they make a skill based recovery, I'm pretty sure people don't want to be recovering more than killing stuff.

Is the fact that so many of the infected mobs utilise the stun mechanic a problem?

Not that I've noticed, no, because for me I've not experienced them anywhere near enough for me to even consider them a problem.

Is my experience clsoe enough to the mean for it to be worth considering as feedback for balance here?

Is yours?

I don't want to see these things gone. I want to see faster recovery from KD, and skill based ways to escape from stun-locks (I've called for these things in posts since day one), but does infested's focus on these mechanics cause anything more than a lack of variety and, ergo, a duller experience while fighting them?

I know my answer to that...

They should consider giving certain skills for specific Warframes 'Stun-Break' status. Allow you to use them to end a stun or stagger immediately/give immunity to stun or stagger while you use them. That is a possible and pretty cool sounding solution.

Or they could go with a much simpler grace period that gives time to rev up a single skill.

Agreed.

I think pretty much everyone does but you seem to have a problem with people offering different opinions.

Everyone knows that all the Infested stagger even the vomit dudes, do those stagger? I dunno.... i never got close....

Anyway, everyone knows this but some people do not feel the same way you do becasue they found ways to deal with that mechanic and they are fine with using those tactics.

You want more diversirty in the Infested? Cool. But they are not broken or the game doesnt have something wrong with it if the makers decided that the Infested stay as an in-your-face enemies. That's simply the way the maker decided they wanted this enemy to behave.

This has been a massive part of my point all along.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Zinn]

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Infested were broken because they were in-your-face enemies. In fact, everyone on these forums rightly calls them laughably easy because of this fact and generally want them changed to have some range or different mechanic to deal with guns. The big current problem with the game is chain stunning and, as a matter of even more debate, if stunning should even exist (I think it should, just not on most regular mobs).

My problem is that many of you have previously expressed that chain-stunning was totally fine because hey, you just dodged like a total pro, completely disregarding what happens when you do get caught, good player or bad. If only you were allowed to fight back, I could live with stunning even on regular mobs, the problem is that you can't fight at all. I have played an immense amount of games over the past 25 years or so and I have to admit that outside straight up bugs or terrible programming, I have never witnessed a mechanic like this that you cannot get out of: There has always been a jump, roll, skill, move, grace period or something to get you out of it.

The reason why stunlocking is extra frustrating is that you're just stuck forever, unable to do anything about it. I mean, I almost can't die in my Rhino against regular enemies unless I'm exceptionally energy starved or stupid (the latter happens more often than I'd like to admit, though). With my mods, artifacts and selections in the frame-tree, I am almost untouchable when I want to be, so stunlocking is rarely about outright death (although I would die eventually, after 5-10 mins or so) and about how long I can be arsed waiting for the possibility of a window to escape before I might as well have aborted and gotten past this point on a new run.

I don't think there is much point in debating the average skill level of players yet for three reasons:

1) As long as chain-stunning exists, even the best player in the world can die a frustrating death and it would skew data on actual difficulty for the rest of the game (read complaints about Toxics spawn rates 2 weeks ago and now - Oh, there are Toxics in the game? I forgot because I am too busy being chain-stunned).

2) There is no scaling in the game, so we have no idea if things will eventually be turned up or down when it does get applied. Judging difficulty of enemies etc. in a closed beta with no scaling doesn't make sense, since any kind of co-op is laughably easy 9 times out of 10 and solo can be quite hard unless you're well specced for the level.

3) In relation to #2, mods still need a lot of balancing: Imagine the difference in damage output between one guy with a rank 30 gun with no mods and 4 guys with the same gun but tweaked with 100+ multishot, crit chance, max ammo and so on. Of course you should have good mods and such but it must be a god damn nightmare to balance.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zinn

[Zakalwe]

Right, except I've only ever been stun-locked once... so it's really pretty irrelevant to me how frustrating it is to be caught by it because it's so easy for me to avoid.

And if this is the case for the average gamer, then why is it such a massive concern past the point of simply wanting more variety?

[Zinn]

Right, except I've only ever been stun-locked once... so it's really pretty irrelevant to me how frustrating it is to be caught by it because it's so easy for me to avoid.

And if this is the case for the average gamer, then why is it such a massive concern past the point of simply wanting more variety?

As you have so aptly pointed out, you are not average and thus your PoV may not be relvant. Also, it can't possibly be the case, given the amount of posts here and on the forum in general. Stun-locking has been a massive complaint in general since I started playing (before toxic spawns went out of hand, the #1 complaint was infested explosions chain-stunning).

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zinn

[Zakalwe]

Two things:

1. I am aware I'm not the average, but am I closer to the average than those complaining? That is the imortant part.

2. Amount of feedback on forums is never a good indicator of the actual concensus. For a start, only a small percentage of a game's playerbase utilise forums, and its much more common for people to make threads with complaints about x than it is for them to say "Actually, I am fine with x".

There are tonnes of posts about Pluto being too diffciult for solo play, but that doesn't mean it is. It just means that some of the people who can't manage it have made threads about it.

[Blatantfool]

Zakalwe, you gotta understand that you ARE technically fighting a losing battle here right?

Ultimately they are right. Chain stunning has been a grievance for ages. This HAS been something that comes up a lot - and you mentioned to me earlier that really even if it is rare it is an ugly thing that it exists at all.

[Zakalwe]

Yeh, you're right.

I'll leave it now, I'll just be going in cricles if I don't.

[Blatantfool]

Yeh, you're right.

I'll leave it now, I'll just be going in cricles if I don't.

It isn't that you don't make sense or don't have a valid point.

It is just that it doesn't really make sense to defend this sort of thing. It really could use some fixing because when it DOES happen it just feels all wrong.

It is worth fixing all the icky little kinks and quirks that plague the game in order to make sure the player is never caught in a deathtrap by chance or otherwise.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Mak_Gohae]

My problem is that many of you have previously expressed that chain-stunning was totally fine because hey, you just dodged like a total pro, completely disregarding what happens when you do get caught, good player or bad. If only you were allowed to fight back, I could live with stunning even on regular mobs, the problem is that you can't fight at all. I have played an immense amount of games over the past 25 years or so and I have to admit that outside straight up bugs or terrible programming, I have never witnessed a mechanic like this that you cannot get out of: There has always been a jump, roll, skill, move, grace period or something to get you out of it.

The reason why stunlocking is extra frustrating is that you're just stuck forever, unable to do anything about it. I mean, I almost can't die in my Rhino against regular enemies unless I'm exceptionally energy starved or stupid (the latter happens more often than I'd like to admit, though). With my mods, artifacts and selections in the frame-tree, I am almost untouchable when I want to be, so stunlocking is rarely about outright death (although I would die eventually, after 5-10 mins or so) and about how long I can be arsed waiting for the possibility of a window to escape before I might as well have aborted and gotten past this point on a new run.

I don't think there is much point in debating the average skill level of players yet for three reasons:

1) As long as chain-stunning exists, even the best player in the world can die a frustrating death and it would skew data on actual difficulty for the rest of the game (read complaints about Toxics spawn rates 2 weeks ago and now - Oh, there are Toxics in the game? I forgot because I am too busy being chain-stunned).

2) There is no scaling in the game, so we have no idea if things will eventually be turned up or down when it does get applied. Judging difficulty of enemies etc. in a closed beta with no scaling doesn't make sense, since any kind of co-op is laughably easy 9 times out of 10 and solo can be quite hard unless you're well specced for the level.

3) In relation to #2, mods still need a lot of balancing: Imagine the difference in damage output between one guy with a rank 30 gun with no mods and 4 guys with the same gun but tweaked with 100+ multishot, crit chance, max ammo and so on. Of course you should have good mods and such but it must be a god damn nightmare to balance.

You dont have to be pro to evade this stuff on a regular basis. I mentioned several tips earlier in the thread that anyone can follow but some folks here are very insistent on not following some of that stuff. Im sorry but if you are going to follow the hard path dont expect anything but hardness to be returned, if i stand there and swing away dont expect go to untouched.

If soloing at low levels or doing missions way higher than your level you NEED to be extra careful and use these tactics or else you are not going to win. Like some of folks have said here, the longest lock i've had was two hits before i got out. And those situations come from me not knowing the enemy was there, if i see a huge group of Infested coming i OF COURSE have to adjust.... who wouldnt?

Some one here earlier mentioned wanting to see some vids and i think i do want to see some vids of these ten second stun lock because outside of soloing a mission that is very high level and you just stand there swinging or getting a horrible spawn i dont see how you can get locked for longer than a few seconds. And i play with Loki who has NO offensive attacks! So if i get trapped i am either jumping, rolling, running, or going invis and i STILL have to deal with will all those enemies i avoided. I have to do this the hard way and actually shoot or cut my way out of this stuff.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Resterian]

I had 3 Shockwave Moas on me. To be honest a wiser man would have just gone afk and made himself a cup of tea while he died.

[MJ12]

The simplest fix to the Infested would have been to make them extremely resistant to bullets but not melee weapons except in headshots, then reduce their health slightly. Say, they only have 60% of their normal health but take 1/4th damage from ranged weapons. Maybe have Infested Brutes that get enraged when shot, charging at you at increased speed. As a bonus those brutes could use the current Charger model. Boost their damage somewhat (by 25-50%?)

Bam. Done. Now you're forcing people to either burn through dozens of ammo boxes (because they now need nearly 2.5 times as much ammo per Infested to kill them) or engage them in their threat bubble wherein they can hurt you. All without a single stunlock mechanic.

You dont have to be pro to evade this stuff on a regular basis. I mentioned several tips earlier in the thread that anyone can follow but some folks here are very insistent on not following some of that stuff. Im sorry but if you are going to follow the hard path dont expect anything but hardness to be returned, if i stand there and swing away dont expect go to untouched.

The "hard path" wasn't supposed to be this hard! That's the point people are trying to make. Not only is it hard, it's the annoying fake-difficulty kind of hard. Tell me again why a game about being a space ninja ultimate badass should force me to run around kiting Infested (and kiting in and of itself is exploiting an AI flaw: Smart AI would refuse to follow you and hide in an area where you couldn't avoid them by running around) plinking at them like some kind of coward? Is the game's name Warframe or is it Cowardframe?

Is this game a fast-paced third person action game or is it a survival horror game about running away from zombies? Because the current Infested mechanics seem to believe it's the second, while literally everything else about the game, including the developers, are saying it's the first.

If soloing at low levels or doing missions way higher than your level you NEED to be extra careful and use these tactics or else you are not going to win. Like some of folks have said here, the longest lock i've had was two hits before i got out. And those situations come from me not knowing the enemy was there, if i see a huge group of Infested coming i OF COURSE have to adjust.... who wouldnt?

So you look for a chokepoint or something or put your back to a wall. That's "tactics". And "adjusting tactics"? Like I said before, DMC2 had enemies which forced you to 'adjust tactics' by exclusively using ranged weapons. This was a hilarious and massive failure. We already have enemies which are basically impossible to kill via melee in the Ospreys, but at least they don't really have any direct attacks and spawn in the ones and twos. If I want to be able to clear a level with melee it should be possible to do without exploiting AI bugs. Maybe I need to use powers to do it. Sure. That's fine, that's how I run Lech Kril with Ash.

That's entirely different from 'do you want to fight in melee y/n if you choose y you die'.

Some one here earlier mentioned wanting to see some vids and i think i do want to see some vids of these ten second stun lock because outside of soloing a mission that is very high level and you just stand there swinging or getting a horrible spawn i dont see how you can get locked for longer than a few seconds. And i play with Loki who has NO offensive attacks! So if i get trapped i am either jumping, rolling, running, or going invis and i STILL have to deal with will all those enemies i avoided. I have to do this the hard way and actually shoot or cut my way out of this stuff.

Loki has some of the best damage mitigation skills in the game. Invisibility and Decoy, plus his ultimate, Radial Disarm, is also an excellent damage mitigator. The damage dealing powers in general are extremely underpowered against Chargers because of their huge HP piles. I've used Ember against them and... never again.

Edited February 3, 2013 by MJ12