The Index

[Naqel]

We should be able to play it in PvP.

[Naptasha]

But its a pve mission

[SevenLetterKWord]

57 minutes ago, Grunt said:

But its a pve mission

I think what he wants is a Conclave game mode with Index rules. Grab tiny green Oro from opponents' corpses, carry it back to your team's bank to secure points.

Of course, stationary objectives in Conclave are a bad idea, as they allow players to easily predict their opponents' movements with great precision.
After all, your opponents have to come to a specific place if they want to make progress. This encourages camping and the abuse of certain tactics.
Many weapons and abilities - which are balanced under normal circumstances - quickly become overpowered with stationary objectives.
Vortex, Effigy, Peacemaker, Snow Globe, Hallowed Ground, the Penta, the Castanas, the Mutalist Cernos...

This could be addressed by making the banks mobile, but that requires a significant programming and map redesign investment that I don't see happening.
Alternatively, each team could be given multiple banks. There should be enough so that no team can camp all of their opponents' banks, so at least five per team... at which point, banks become meaningless and we might as well just allow players to secure points right when they collect the Oro... kind of like what already happens in Conclave.

[Darkvramp]

5 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

 

Of course, stationary objectives in Conclave are a bad idea, as they allow players to easily predict their opponents' movements with great precision.
After all, your opponents have to come to a specific place if they want to make progress. This encourages camping and the abuse of certain tactics.
Many weapons and abilities - which are balanced under normal circumstances - quickly become overpowered with stationary objectives.
Vortex, Effigy, Peacemaker, Snow Globe, Hallowed Ground, the Penta, the Castanas, the Mutalist Cernos...

i think its called strategy, not whatever you think it is. It is a bad idea as the conclave game mode is already separated as is and since the large community as a whole sees it as a nuisance or a joke, and adding more content to the pvp when the pve needs more love is kind of an instant way to piss off the community.

[SevenLetterKWord]

41 minutes ago, Darkvramp said:

i think its called strategy, not whatever you think it is. It is a bad idea as the conclave game mode is already separated as is and since the large community as a whole sees it as a nuisance or a joke, and adding more content to the pvp when the pve needs more love is kind of an instant way to piss off the community.

Amazing feedback. Such insight!
Do you happen to have published any essays or novels? I simply must have more.

[.Zel]

1 hour ago, Darkvramp said:

pve needs more love

are you actually saying PvE doesn't get enough updates or new Content?

1 hour ago, Darkvramp said:

adding more content to the pvp

???????????? What content, Stuff introduced in PvE is just usable in PvP, do you even know how things work.

1 hour ago, Darkvramp said:

since the large community as a whole sees it as a nuisance or a joke

 

1 hour ago, Darkvramp said:

instant way to piss off the community.

I'm pretty sure it's just you who is pissed off and if that's the case then you should go vent somewhere else, This sub-form is for discussing things related to Conclave and not for "O i hate this game mode pls kill it" comments. 

[Naqel]

7 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

I think what he wants is a Conclave game mode with Index rules. Grab tiny green Oro from opponents' corpses, carry it back to your team's bank to secure points.

Actually, The Index works on touchdown rules: you need to carry the points to the enemy base(and get teleported back to yours when you succeed).
Which is what makes the mode interesting: to score, you need to get where all the enemies will be spawning after you kill them, and most of the time they will spawn before you get there.

Sure, globe and what not, but the core concept is the type of fresh air PvP needs. Too much of it right now is based on running away from a fight, instead of charging into one.

Done right it could outright replace both of our existing team based modes.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Naqel

[taiiat]

as aforemtioned, because of how Conclave (and the game at large) is designed, static Objectives are a very muddy territory to get into.

but, aside from that an Index styled Gamemode would be different from the others that exist, and therefore perhaps worth exploring.

[taiiat]

as aforemtioned, because of how Conclave (and the game at large) is designed, static Objectives are a very muddy territory to get into.

but, aside from that an Index styled Gamemode would be different from the others that exist, and therefore perhaps worth exploring.

[SevenLetterKWord]

1 hour ago, Naqel said:

Actually, The Index works on touchdown rules: you need to carry the points to the enemy base(and get teleported back to yours when you succeed).
Which is what makes the mode interesting: to score, you need to get where all the enemies will be spawning after you kill them, and most of the time they will spawn before you get there.

The difference is trivial, especially on small maps like the Index's.

1 hour ago, Naqel said:

Sure, globe and what not, but the core concept is the type of fresh air PvP needs... Done right it could outright replace both of our existing team based modes.

Team Annihilation is a standard game mode and a logical extension of conventional Annihilation; I don't see it being "replaced" anytime soon.
Cephalon Capture, on the other hand, suffers from many, many design flaws, stationary objectives not excluded. I would gladly welcome a suitable replacement.

The Index is not it.

I invite you instead to consider "Conclave Hijack", proposed earlier in rudimentary forms in this subforum and further explored in the Conclave Discord, captured below.
Excuse the interspersed irrelevancies.

Spoiler

 

[Naqel]

34 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Cephalon Capture, on the other hand, suffers from many, many design flaws, stationary objectives not excluded. I would gladly welcome a suitable replacement.

The Index is not it.

I don't think you appreciate how radically different a a "touchdown" game mode is from "CTF".

Hell, what you suggest is just a touchdown on rails, which is all the worse considering it suffers not only from the static goal, but also from completely static routes.
Payloads works only in the context of a one-sided siege, for which warframe's gameplay is most definitely not well suited.

[SevenLetterKWord]

On 7/31/2017 at 1:37 AM, Naqel said:

I don't think you appreciate how radically different a a "touchdown" game mode is from "CTF".

I don't "appreciate" it because, especially in Warframe, it isn't "radically different".

(Let's ignore Cephalon Capture's nonsense rules governing timers and whatnot. Yes, this arguably makes Cephalon Capture "unique" and thus "radically different" from a touchdown mode, but such mechanics are band-aids conceding poor fundamental design.)

Warframe's high mobility trivializes the geographical distinction between "my spawn zone" and "their spawn zone", especially on Index-sized maps. In the fifteen seconds it takes to respawn in Conclave's team-based modes, I could easily traverse the distance between goal points - possibly twice.

Even if we ignore the influence of high mobility, we still arrive at the following conclusion: In a "touchdown" mode, the obvious advantageous position is near your opponent's goal (aka the goal in your opponent's spawn zone where you bring your points to score). This minimizes the distance you have to travel to score a point and maximizes that distance for your opponents. So we end up with both teams hovering about each others' goals, occasionally foraying back into their "own" zones - presently occupied by the opposing team - to attempt to grab points to carry back again into the opposing teams team's goal zone. This is practically identical to CTF, only nominal ownership of the goals is switched, players respawn into hives of enemies, and it's easier for a single underperforming player to throw the game.

"Touchdown" modes are unique when there is some sort of (abstract) barrier which serves to separate the opposing sides and unite allied players. In American football, this is the line of scrimmage. In the proposed hijack mode, this is the hijack objective. In the Index, there is no such barrier. Players move independently of the team, fight independently of the team. The mode devolves into Team Annihilation, but with complications.

---

14 hours ago, Gretzel said:

The pve gets way way more attention than the pvp as it is. Its getting all the attention it needs while the pvp does not. 

When you quote bad feedback, you run the risk of attracting more bad feedback.
The post you quoted has already been more than sufficiently addressed; there is no need to provide redundant refutations.

2 hours ago, Gretzel said:

How are you the one who decides that?

I'm not "deciding" it; it's just obvious.
.Zel's response here says everything that you say, and more. He's already expressed the idea that PvE receives a lot of attention.
Given that you aren't adding anything new, I think it's better if we don't dogpile on someone who's clearly confused, especially when doing so could pollute the thread with more non-constructive content.

Edited August 6, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord

[Gretzel]

On 7/30/2017 at 9:36 PM, Darkvramp said:

when the pve needs more love 

The pve gets way way more attention than the pvp as it is. Its getting all the attention it needs while the pvp does not. 

[Gretzel]

On 7/31/2017 at 2:37 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

 

The post you quoted has already been more than sufficiently addressed

How are you the one who decides that?

[Nazrethim]

On 30/7/2017 at 8:05 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

I think what he wants is a Conclave game mode with Index rules. Grab tiny green Oro from opponents' corpses, carry it back to your team's bank to secure points.

Of course, stationary objectives in Conclave are a bad idea, as they allow players to easily predict their opponents' movements with great precision.
After all, your opponents have to come to a specific place if they want to make progress. This encourages camping and the abuse of certain tactics.
Many weapons and abilities - which are balanced under normal circumstances - quickly become overpowered with stationary objectives.
Vortex, Effigy, Peacemaker, Snow Globe, Hallowed Ground, the Penta, the Castanas, the Mutalist Cernos...

This could be addressed by making the banks mobile, but that requires a significant programming and map redesign investment that I don't see happening.
Alternatively, each team could be given multiple banks. There should be enough so that no team can camp all of their opponents' banks, so at least five per team... at which point, banks become meaningless and we might as well just allow players to secure points right when they collect the Oro... kind of like what already happens in Conclave.

I have an alternative suggestions to the Banks: make them switch every 1-2minutes, Sun becomes Moon and viceversa. That would require practically no map redesign and would sort of reduce camping for everyone but the most coordinated teams...which are next to non-existant in general due to how matchmaking works right now.

[SevenLetterKWord]

5 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I have an alternative suggestions to the Banks: make them switch every 1-2minutes, Sun becomes Moon and viceversa. That would require practically no map redesign and would sort of reduce camping for everyone but the most coordinated teams...which are next to non-existant in general due to how matchmaking works right now.

What?
How would this "reduce camping"?
If anything, it would encourage more camping.
"I don't need to go to my opponent's bank... I'll just wait here a couple more seconds and the bank will come to me!"

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

What?
How would this "reduce camping"?
If anything, it would encourage more camping.
"I don't need to go to my opponent's bank... I'll just wait here a couple more seconds and the bank will come to me!"

"If I camp the bank my opponent won't be able to score"

*bank switch*

*Opponent scores after switch*

"...sh*t"