The Ultimate Solution to Get Rid of the Serration Mod

[Rekkou]

3 minutes ago, KavasMasta said:

you are assuming that all the endo they passively get will automatically go into serration which i guarantee it doesn't also the credits at lower levels are nearly impossible to get

btw its 20.9k endo and 1mil credits to max serration

though we cant forget im also talking about point blank and hornet strike as well as pressure point which im sure makes it well over 60k endo and 3 mil credits

Nope, i don't assume anything, getting Endo does not dictate gameplay nor obliged players to do anything else so assumption of new players behaviour is not needed at all. While your system will force them to get new weapons or warframes and you justify it because you assume that every players will do their game exactly as you did.

[Xarteros]

38 minutes ago, KavasMasta said:

1

basically grind your weapons up to 30 and then do the star system missions theres alot of flaws with making the weapons increase stats with levels how many times do you think DE has heard this suggestion from this discussion alone in founders chat i heard this same suggestion 7 times from different people so no i dont think that is the solution because:

• it screws up early game because you can just get abounch of people to level up your weapon then breeze through early game <-------- main reason
• it would cause even more incentive to exp grind 

2

Sounds like extra grind to me which most of the people in this thread are against if you haven't read

0.5) Full stops and commas are your friend =P Sorry, it was just hard to read a sentence that long.

1) Maybe you're misunderstanding... Say a weapon has 100 damage at rank 30. Maybe it starts at 60-80 damage at rank 0. Sure, if it starts at 5-10 damage at rank 0, that's a different story. A slight damage decrease at low level wouldn't make any real difference at all, since low-level enemies get slaughtered by unranked, unmodded weapons. Seriously. It wouldn't be that major. Warframes already get 1/3rd of their shields and health to start with, and it hasn't broken the game somehow.

2) You're calling for mastery-based damage. There is no higher tier of extra grind than having to farm for blueprints, farm for resources, unlock research, farm for relics, and grind out every single available weapon just to increase mastery. I'm not even specifically against it, but I know it'd just generate a lot of whining from low-levels, elitism from high-levels, and it would just promote people mass-farming XP even more than they already do. Less people will actually bother trying weapons out, so it just homogenises the entire game into even more of a boring grind. Plenty of players keep a low mastery because they find weapons and warframes that they really like, and mostly stick with them. Why should they be punished moreso than they already are?

[DEADSHOT456]

4 hours ago, KavasMasta said:

My counter to both of those is that low rank mysteries are guaranteed to have a low serration mod anyway

You can't be anymore wrong. An MR5 is high enough to max out Serration. Hell, buying a maxed Serration is damn easy. I would agree if you were talking about Primed Point Blank, But no, you are talking about Serration, Hornet Strike and even regular Point Blank. Those are not at all hard to max out. This happened due to the change to Endo from Fusion Cores. Now we need much less grind to max out Common and Uncommon mods.

[DEADSHOT456]

Ok, so I read through the thread a bit.

So, from a new player POV, what you are essentially telling me is that to get the best out of my MK1 Braton or Braton, I need to level up and max out about 50 other weapon?

Not gonna work.

Lets take each of your points and probe a bit further -

• Tying damage to level of the weapons will screw up the early game balance.
  Ok, so this can be solved by re-balancing the game around the new system. However, going by your idea, even that would screw up the balance of the game, just in the opposite way. By your method, a new player needs to max out 30 other weapons to get the fullest out of his/her early game weapon like Braton or Latron. This means that if the new player builds a Braton and Latron and a Boltor, every single of these weapons will be underpowered because the player hasn't maxed out a bunch of other weapons, and now since the player can not get damage from Serration, this will create a paradox. So, the player needs to craft more weapons to get a better Boltor, but without a better Boltor (s)he can not farm enough materials to get more weapons to get a better Boltor. Understand the paradox here?
   
• It will reduce grind for Endo which is better
  Indeed, it will reduce the grind for Endo. But instead, it adds a far worse grind.
  So, now a new player needs to get Serration>Get Endo>Get Credits>Level up Serration.
  After your idea is implemented, new player needs to get Boltor>Get credits>Get a bunch of weapon BPs>Farm enough resources to build those weapons>Farm enough platinum to actually be able to store those weapons(slots)>Farm enough XP to level each of those weapons to 30.
  Now this also includes the fact that different resources come from different planets and the newbie will not have access to those planets and resources thus preventing them from actually building a bunch of weapons.
  Excuse me, but the first method is infinitely more easier and honestly, if the newbie needs to farm platinum for slots, why on earth would't (s)he just farm enough platinum to buy a maxed Serration outright?
  This does not make any sense whatsoever.

Right now, your idea seems worse than the current system. Sorry.

[Fallen_Echo]

9 hours ago, KavasMasta said:

Problem:

This is the answer to the one of the Mandatory Mod Issue's that has always been an issue since the mod 2.0 system came out

Solution:

Remove All Flat damage mods and make the Damage increase inherent according to your mastery rank.

Specifics:

• Make it cap at a specified mastery rank (example: mastery rank 10)
• mastery rank 0 grant +0% :: 1 = 10% :: 2 = 20% ect. (can be linear or a curve)

Pros:

• makes player progress through the game at a steady pace
• gives reason for mastery ranking and gives reason for a mastery rank tutorial (besides i want this weapon)
• does not cause problems for veteran players
• allows a steady learning process and prevents people from just buying the damage mods
• you won't have to dump all of your endo into damage mods to be good and guarantees max damage at the damage mastery rank cap
• the inevitable credit farming the 1 mil for each of the damage mods (not point blank and pressure point) will no longer be necessary

Reasoning:

• Serration was always a mandatory mod for all weapons and limits creativity on builds for weapons
• It gives incentive to rank up mastery to make weapons better
• Gives some meaning to mastery system

Balancing:

• Monitor at what rank players are when they finish the star system
• make sure damage isn't too high at the lower level planets

Cons:

• makes players not want to play with people of lower mastery rank

  Hide contents

comment: already kind of a thing anyway cause of the idea of veterency and in game skill

• My counter argument is that people will want to move up the mastery system faster therefor this wont be too much of an issue
• We can make a system that makes them do more dmg when around other people of larger mastery rank (part of tenno affinity maybe)
• other than that we can add a better tenno mentor system that grant incentive to help them

• It makes the players have to mastery grind at low levels

  Hide contents

• most cool and fun weapons force you to mastery grind
• quests require mastery ranks anyway
• mastery rank gain extra benefits other then additional weapon damage

Comments concerns below please all replies will be made below here

How about an even more simple solution to this problem?

Just buff up every weapon for +165% damage. We already got weapons what are soo useless even max serration cant make them kill lv30+ enemies.

 

[KavasMasta]

6 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

You can't be anymore wrong. An MR5 is high enough to max out Serration. Hell, buying a maxed Serration is damn easy. I would agree if you were talking about Primed Point Blank, But no, you are talking about Serration, Hornet Strike and even regular Point Blank. Those are not at all hard to max out. This happened due to the change to Endo from Fusion Cores. Now we need much less grind to max out Common and Uncommon mods.

it takes 40k endo and 1 mil credits to max out a damage mod money (you wont have that much endo at rank 5-8) that you are spending on getting cool things you see in the market

[KavasMasta]

made changes to topic to counter argue the mastery grind

[KavasMasta]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

How about an even more simple solution to this problem?

Just buff up every weapon for +165% damage. We already got weapons what are soo useless even max serration cant make them kill lv30+ enemies.

 

making a edit for people who refuse to read

[KavasMasta]

9 hours ago, Rekkou said:

Nope, i don't assume anything, getting Endo does not dictate gameplay nor obliged players to do anything else so assumption of new players behaviour is not needed at all. While your system will force them to get new weapons or warframes and you justify it because you assume that every players will do their game exactly as you did.

oops i frorced players to get 20 weapons from the market and 4 warframes to grind my b

you forced to grind all of it sooner or later

Edited August 10, 2017 by KavasMasta

[Fallen_Echo]

11 hours ago, KavasMasta said:

On not why not just increase the weapons damage by a flat %160

because it screws up early game on earth and mercury and venus

Add in a -165% damage debuff on those areas?

[KavasMasta]

5 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Ok, so I read through the thread a bit.

So, from a new player POV, what you are essentially telling me is that to get the best out of my MK1 Braton or Braton, I need to level up and max out about 50 other weapon?

Not gonna work.

Lets take each of your points and probe a bit further -

• Tying damage to level of the weapons will screw up the early game balance.
  Ok, so this can be solved by re-balancing the game around the new system. However, going by your idea, even that would screw up the balance of the game, just in the opposite way. By your method, a new player needs to max out 30 other weapons to get the fullest out of his/her early game weapon like Braton or Latron. This means that if the new player builds a Braton and Latron and a Boltor, every single of these weapons will be underpowered because the player hasn't maxed out a bunch of other weapons, and now since the player can not get damage from Serration, this will create a paradox. So, the player needs to craft more weapons to get a better Boltor, but without a better Boltor (s)he can not farm enough materials to get more weapons to get a better Boltor. Understand the paradox here?
   
• It will reduce grind for Endo which is better
  Indeed, it will reduce the grind for Endo. But instead, it adds a far worse grind.
  So, now a new player needs to get Serration>Get Endo>Get Credits>Level up Serration.
  After your idea is implemented, new player needs to get Boltor>Get credits>Get a bunch of weapon BPs>Farm enough resources to build those weapons>Farm enough platinum to actually be able to store those weapons(slots)>Farm enough XP to level each of those weapons to 30.
  Now this also includes the fact that different resources come from different planets and the newbie will not have access to those planets and resources thus preventing them from actually building a bunch of weapons.
  Excuse me, but the first method is infinitely more easier and honestly, if the newbie needs to farm platinum for slots, why on earth would't (s)he just farm enough platinum to buy a maxed Serration outright?
  This does not make any sense whatsoever.

Right now, your idea seems worse than the current system. Sorry.

Tying damage to level of the weapons will screw up the early game balance.
Ok, so this can be solved by re-balancing the game around the new system. 

^this will never happen^

and after that no what this will do is make weapons that players you level up withn them so while they are playing the game it will help them understand what damage types work on what enemies and the underpowered statement is already a thing with serration????

i added a rebutlle for the second part in my post and grinding the play for a serration is a grind within itself a contradiction it will be under powered if you run a 40 mission with an mk1 braton duh

[KavasMasta]

5 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Add in a -165% damage debuff on those areas?

then it pisses of veteren players so no

[Circle_of_Psi]

11 hours ago, KavasMasta said:

-snip-

 

I have to admit Kavas, the idea itself is sound & will make levelling MR, more something you should do, then just do and forget. However, I can see you already attempted to counter argument of the cons, via "Elite" players being well..most elite.

However, I'll address an issue I have as well: Founders, they have gear that gave them XP, in the result, we will never be able to reach the maximum rank (If it has one, in the end). Due to such, a lot of people will start clawing at your throats, even more than they already are.

 So, I like your idea, but the following changes need to happen before an idea like this will come to light.

 

1. MR Ranking: This needs to be much easier, no more "24h" waiting, no more "If you fail, you fail". Allow us to do the test and be done with MR.

2. Founders Items: All XP, removed, period. no question. 

3. High MR, allows others to share Damage (You already said this)

4. Allow Froma-Leveling, to Increase MR. (Or): Stop Froma, de-ranking your weapons, this loses time, in ranking MR.

5. More MR, Rewards, then a shiny icon and a pat on the back, with a bag of sweets (AKA: Weapons & Quests & Goodies)

6. Eitle Players, can not Over-Power, Out Damage and Outpace, Lower or New players, Some players have low MR, as they only level what they wish, not what they SHOULD

7. Low-level missions, High Missions?, End game: Balance, you can not out damage the mission. If you're that high in MR, to give Low/New players a chance. 

 

All I can think of

Edited August 10, 2017 by Circle_of_Psi
Why does the enter key remove my text?

[Rekkou]

10 minutes ago, KavasMasta said:

oops i frorced players to get 20 weapons from the market and 4 warframes to grind my b

you forced to grind all of it sooner or later

Yep, but your system forced it sooner than later. Makes it the worse system

[KavasMasta]

9 hours ago, Xarteros said:

0.5) Full stops and commas are your friend =P Sorry, it was just hard to read a sentence that long.

1) Maybe you're misunderstanding... Say a weapon has 100 damage at rank 30. Maybe it starts at 60-80 damage at rank 0. Sure, if it starts at 5-10 damage at rank 0, that's a different story. A slight damage decrease at low level wouldn't make any real difference at all, since low-level enemies get slaughtered by unranked, unmodded weapons. Seriously. It wouldn't be that major. Warframes already get 1/3rd of their shields and health to start with, and it hasn't broken the game somehow.

2) You're calling for mastery-based damage. There is no higher tier of extra grind than having to farm for blueprints, farm for resources, unlock research, farm for relics, and grind out every single available weapon just to increase mastery. I'm not even specifically against it, but I know it'd just generate a lot of whining from low-levels, elitism from high-levels, and it would just promote people mass-farming XP even more than they already do. Less people will actually bother trying weapons out, so it just homogenises the entire game into even more of a boring grind. Plenty of players keep a low mastery because they find weapons and warframes that they really like, and mostly stick with them. Why should they be punished moreso than they already are?

soory for the lack of commas and grammar but id like to see you try to counter all of these people fast paced.

1)cause that will pull people away from the mastery system making the mastery grind that much worse making people want to stick to that 1 level 30 weapon they have because they don't want to deal leveling the next one to 30 because it has trash damage at lvl 0

2) countered this in my main topic

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 minute ago, KavasMasta said:

soory for the lack of commas and grammar but id like to see you try to counter all of these people fast paced.

1

You should see mine, I'm worse XD

Also, I edited my topic, cuz bugs

[KavasMasta]

2 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Yep, but your system forced it sooner than later. Makes it the worse system

in my opinion trying new weapons makes the game more fresh and fun there are many weapons like penta amprex flux rifle sybaris drakoon ect that look cool and pull people into them anyway

Edited August 10, 2017 by KavasMasta

[KavasMasta]

10 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

I have to admit Kavas, the idea itself is sound & will make levelling MR, more something you should do, then just do and forget. However, I can see you already attempted to counter argument of the cons, via "Elite" players being well..most elite.

However, I'll address an issue I have as well: Founders, they have gear that gave them XP, in the result, we will never be able to reach the maximum rank (If it has one, in the end). Due to such, a lot of people will start clawing at your throats, even more than they already are.

 So, I like your idea, but the following changes need to happen before an idea like this will come to light.

 

1. MR Ranking: This needs to be much easier, no more "24h" waiting, no more "If you fail, you fail". Allow us to do the test and be done with MR.

2. Founders Items: All XP, removed, period. no question. 

1. MR Ranking: This needs to be much easier, no more "24h" waiting, no more "If you fail, you fail". Allow us to do the test and be done with MR.

tbh this erks the crap out of me and should be reduced to like 8 hours or something.

2. Founders Items: All XP, removed, period. no question. 

meh we payed $100 early on in the game to get it started i think we earned the extra 10k mastery thats just me

the idea that they completely remove ways to get items like the braton vandal it was only available for 3 days for 1 credit the weekend before i started (btw this was closed beta and it took 3 days to get into it) does kinna annoy me but the problem with it is is the people that already got it to thirty could lose their mastery rank and thats a HUGE nono.

Edited August 10, 2017 by KavasMasta

[Rekkou]

19 minutes ago, KavasMasta said:

in my opinion trying new weapons makes the game more fresh and fun there are many weapons like penta amprex flux rifle sybaris drakoon ect that look cool and pull people into them anyway

And with Serration it's easier to use those weapons at their full potential instead of waiting and grinding until you have enough weapons first.

[Circle_of_Psi]

35 minutes ago, KavasMasta said:

-Snip-

 

I guess, but a lot of founders will always be on the top "Etile" and no one will like that, period.

Not got anything else on this topic, sorry

Edited August 10, 2017 by Circle_of_Psi
Edited for Clarity

[DEADSHOT456]

25 minutes ago, KavasMasta said:

it takes 40k endo and 1 mil credits to max out a damage mod money (you wont have that much endo at rank 5-8) that you are spending on getting cool things you see in the market

No it doesn't. Before you put forward an argument, be sure to check if you yourself have the right info.

Spoiler

And the below is not hard for a MR5 player. While your method would give an MR5 only +50%, even a R8 Serration will give 135%. And that damage is needed. +50% will do nothing very soon. Sooner than you can even realise.

Spoiler

 

 

13 minutes ago, KavasMasta said:

^this will never happen^

Who told you that?

If a whole Damage 2.0 can happen, so can that. It is nothing hard to balance out the low level gameplay to match the progression.

4 minutes ago, KavasMasta said:

in my opinion trying new weapons makes the game more fresh and fun

Unfortunately, thats your OPINION. Gameplay designs are not supposed to be based on opinions, as simple as that.

11 hours ago, KavasMasta said:

All things that already require mastery grind

Yes, most of those require MR5 or MR6. The maximum you could show for a frame was MR7, thats Titania. However, going to MR5 isnt that hard. The problem starts when your logic is followed. According to your idea, MR5 will get +50% damage. That won't do S#&amp;&#036; in the later parts.

And I haven't seen you solve the paradox I told you about in my previous post.

While the present MR locks do not interfere with your damage progression, your method does.

Right now, a new player can work on ranking up the Serration on Boltor or Braton to actually gather resources from the higher level star chart missions to build new weapons.

Tell me again how the F will a new player gather resource to build new weapons in the first place if they can not take on the high level planets?

Are you even understanding the paradox here?

In your 'fabulous' method, new players can not get damage increase unless they build other weapons, but to build most other weapons, they need the damage to be able to collect resources from later planets. That is a paradox right there. I don't know how else am I supposed to make you understand that.

12 hours ago, KavasMasta said:

THEN BUY MORE you start with 50 plat use it

50 plat will give a new player 1 frame and 4 weapon slots or 2 frame slots or 8 weapons slots. The highest MR points they can get from that is 24k+12k from 2 starting frame slot+18k from starting 6 weapon slots.

Thats a total of 54k MR points.

With 54k MR points, they would be only MR4, meaning +40% damage bonus. Since MR5 needs 62.5k MR points.

I hope you realise why people are against your idea with the below screenshot -

Spoiler

Any sane player would prefer spending 7k credits and 140 Endo to get +60% damage over "building and ranking 2 frames and 14 weapons to get +40% damage"

So, yeah, your idea is beyond ridiculous and was put forward without even a little research.

 

 

12 hours ago, KavasMasta said:

if you REALLY need to play this game 100% free to play (you have an issue)

No, I do not have issue if I need to play this game 100%. This is a classic example of elitism here and after this statement, I am not even going to bother with your useless idea.

There is a thing called 'Currency Rates'. Some people are not fortunate enough to be born in developed countries. That does not mean they are not allowed to play games.

The very reason they chose a F2P game is due to this fact. Because they might have time, but not enough money to spend on a game.

I don't know if you realize, but this statement is offensive and shows your ignorance about real world.

[KavasMasta]

well no one every supports and idea in the forums unless its a dev post

[DEADSHOT456]

Just now, KavasMasta said:

well no one every supports and idea in the forums unless its a dev post

There are plenty of people who support good ideas. Yours is not a good one.

Like literally, I proved it with screenshot above that the amount of grind you are subjecting a new player for +40% damage is insane.

And no, you can not increase the +% more than 10, because that would mean a +230% for me and then, the game will need re-balancing and in your own words, "that will never happen". If anything, +% per MR will be less than 10%.

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

This is a classic example of elitism here and after this statement, I am not even going to bother with your useless idea. I don't know if you realize, but this statement is offensive and shows your ignorance about the real world.

 

A bit sharp, mind you, but I've got to agree with you DEADSHOT, this will only benefit founders, nothing more.

Alteast how I see it, sure Etile players, high MR, will also be the same, but there always that extra MR/XP, that Founders will have.

[DEADSHOT456]

Just now, Circle_of_Psi said:

A bit sharp, mind you, but I've got to agree with you DEADSHOT, this will only benefit founders, nothing more.

Alteast how I see it, sure Etile players, high MR, will also be the same, but there always that extra MR/XP, that Founders will have.

I have nothing against Founders or players who spend money. If anything, I appreciate that because they generate revenue to keep the business. What I do not like is when those people look down on free players as if they are some lords and free players are some low born slave.

Just as much a F2P game needs paying players, it needs free players as well. Because like it or not, number of free players are much more than paying players in a F2P game and these free players prevent the playerbase from dying.

Yes, I was a bit sharp, but then again, I won't change my view on the fact that OP said that people have issues if they play a F2P game completely for free.