Is RNG outdated? - Number Shuffling System and Fail Safe System

[Dark_Sp00n]

10 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

For a finite amount of tries, yes. But probabilities are definite for an infinit amount of tries. And that's why there is no chance of never getting something.
Yes, that's not quite how reality works, but still.

The problem is, the OP fixes only the issue of never getting something. He doesn't fix the problem of getting multiple instances of an item. As someone already said, it will take forever to get multiple instances.
Right now we could get the same item back to back. With OP's system we will have to run through all those numbers over and over and over and over and over again.
If I want an item two times, I could get it back to back. One time as the last number in the line, and the seconde time as the first number in the line. But what if I want the item a third time? I have to run through the whole seconde line of numbers. And if I'm unlucky, the third item is again the last item in the line. So I have to run through 3 lines of all numbers, until I'm happy. Right now it COULD take this much time as well. But it also could take way less time.

Again, for items a player "needs" multiple times, e.g. kama blades, they could be put into rotation twice. Also, as we discussed, prime parts are a matter of their own. The token system Baro'ki'teer is supposed to represent could be turned into a prime part exchange place. Ducats could be used at Baro's brother to buy specific prime parts instead of primed mods and baro-fashion.

Also, the failsafe system wouldn't have this kind of problem, as far as I know, what do you think of that?^^

Edited August 13, 2017 by Dark_Sp00n

[(PSN)FatMacBrbn]

RNG is a gambling mechanic, it's meant to keep folks coming back for more.It has it's place and it's limits. I feel like most games that use RNG abuse it's design however. More crucial items shouldn't be included in such a flawed mechanic. Sorties, for example, have too big a reward table. Like why is ayatan there when it's obtainable through Maroo? Why are potatoes there when they are already in alerts(though not enough)? Too many unnecessary items bundled with good stuff. 

What's strange about warframe is that is appears to have more than enough content to spread rewards around.It's overusing RNG, like it made sense back in the day, but now looks outdated in some places. There's a lot of gameplay to be had by just rearranging stuff. Like do we really need Redirection as a reward after 5 waves of a level 40 defense? Could put that 4k endo there or something, IJS.

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by (PS4)FatMacBrbn

[Loswaith]

19 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

For a finite amount of tries, yes. But probabilities are definite for an infinit amount of tries. And that's why there is no chance of never getting something.
...

Tries are finite however, the game wont exist for an eternity to have infinite tries.  While Probabilities are exactly the thing games use.  The suggested system also has finite tries.

 

19 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

... The problem is, the OP fixes only the issue of never getting something. He doesn't fix the problem of getting multiple instances of an item. As someone already said, it will take forever to get multiple instances.
Right now we could get the same item back to back. With OP's system we will have to run through all those numbers over and over and over and over and over again. ...

Actually you are guaranteed to get everything twice (or more) with the suggested system than a low chance RNG.  Simply because locations have only around 20-30 possible rewards at most (the vast majority having much fewer), so after running a mission 40-60 times you will have 2 of everything, while for a drop rate of about 5% (a common rare drop value in warframe) you still have a 4.61% chance of never even getting one for your 60 runs (thus close to the drop chance to get one).

 

19 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

If I want an item two times, I could get it back to back. One time as the last number in the line, and the seconde time as the first number in the line. But what if I want the item a third time? I have to run through the whole seconde line of numbers. And if I'm unlucky, the third item is again the last item in the line. So I have to run through 3 lines of all numbers, until I'm happy. Right now it COULD take this much time as well. But it also could take way less time.

Sure you could get an item back to back, but unless it is a huge chance then its rather unlikely, you would actually have more chance to never get it in the time you could get 2-3 in the suggested system.  
So now if you are unlucky, its never getting the reward, as opposed to if your unlikely with multiples you run a mission up to the number of rewards.  Conversely for your second and third runs you would have an equal chance to get them the first time in the block as the chance they are the last item.

If you are unlucky now you get nothing, if you are unlucky in the new system you get it last in the sequence.  So now each run you don't get what you are after it is essentially a wasted effort, the suggested system you are always making some progress closer with every "failed" attempt.

Currently the system totally rewards only the lucky, in the suggested system it is entirely fair to all players.  Worse for the lucky but better for the unlucky and better for the average.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Loswaith

[Loswaith]

5 hours ago, (PS4)FatMacBrbn said:

What's strange about warframe is that is appears to have more than enough content to spread rewards around.It's overusing RNG, like it made sense back in the day, but now looks outdated in some places. There's a lot of gameplay to be had by just rearranging stuff. Like do we really need Redirection as a reward after 5 waves of a level 40 defense? Could put that 4k endo there or something, IJS.

True, Warframe has plenty of locations to spread things out more than it does, which would also help lower the RNG mountain.
Though we don't really need Redirection/Vitality (or similar 'starter' mods) in a loot table anywhere other than Earth, Mercury and Venus now that we have the endo system to rank mods, as opposed to the previous system of needing multiple mods to rank other mods (which most of the mod drops were built around).
In many cases players will have found those mods and any found later are just turned into endo or credits to be used later (as needed), thus are essentially just filler rewards (essentially rewards that have no use to the player but make it harder to get other rewards that are of use). 

[Chipputer]

Every suggested system has just as many drawbacks as RNG and/or would reduce profit for DE. Giving people a guaranteed drop after xx number of runs does nothing but tell people that they have no reason to ever purchase plat beyond cosmetics which would cut out a lot of DE's bottom line. There's no reason to trade parts, any more, because just running another 6 runs gives you the item you're looking for. Prime Access and Unvaultings have no use beyond the Prime Accessories because now everyone knows they just need to run 6 times, total, per new Relic to get everything they're after.

Your system would be far worse for the game's health, as a whole.

Also lol @ the casual mention of taking, "years," to get an item earlier in the thread. Good one. Aside from Stalker drops this has always been hyperbole from people who barely try, refuse to keep trying, and expect the item to fall into their lap.

[Dark_Sp00n]

On 14/08/2017 at 6:00 AM, Chipputer said:

Every suggested system has just as many drawbacks as RNG and/or would reduce profit for DE. Giving people a guaranteed drop after xx number of runs does nothing but tell people that they have no reason to ever purchase plat beyond cosmetics which would cut out a lot of DE's bottom line.

There's no reason to trade parts, any more, because just running another 6 runs gives you the item you're looking for. Prime Access and Unvaultings have no use beyond the Prime Accessories because now everyone knows they just need to run 6 times, total, per new Relic to get everything they're after.

Your system would be far worse for the game's health, as a whole.

Also lol @ the casual mention of taking, "years," to get an item earlier in the thread. Good one. Aside from Stalker drops this has always been hyperbole from people who barely try, refuse to keep trying, and expect the item to fall into their lap.

1. Yes, there are as many drawbacks, but clearly not of the same nature, and that's the problem here. Surprisingly, having unfair RNG doesn't increase DE's profit, because it decreases the amount of fun you can have in the game and makes people quit. Having basic items like un-primed warframes drop more consistently would actually justify buying even more cosmetics for the newly acquired warframe/weapon.

2. There is. Because according to the difference in dropchances, it wouldn't just be 6 runs. Some parts have to drop less. Let's say a parts A,B and C have 33% drop chance and part D has 1%. You would have to run the mission somewhere between 1 and a 100 times to get that item once, because the sample will be a mix of 33 As, 33 Bs, 33 Cs and 1 D. 4 Rewards doesn't mean 4 Runs. The new systems trades rewarding great luck for rewarding time-investment into the game.

3. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

4. It literally took some of my friends 2 YEARS to get their last Nova part. That's right: Nova. Not Nova Prime. Nova. The basic thing. And that's because they always dropped the other 2 parts. And me? It just took me a few 200 runs of Defection to get that goddamn system and while I AM happy about being in the possession of Harrow, the time I spent on those 200 runs of the same flawed mission I'd rather had spent on ANY other warframe content, yes ANY, enjoying the beautiful content DE is working on, like Hentai Prime and the soon to be released PoE. Yeah you heard me right: Farming for Harrow since release, I didn't get a single second of time to spend on farming Hydroid Prime and his weapons, and I was dedicated! Actually, I am now visually allergic to Infested enemies and stupid escort targets with AI bugs. They give me constipation.

[Mudfam]

Unhappy players aren't good for the game. Let's not get into these purely hypothetical arguments about what might cause someone to spend more, there's many just as fanciful counterarguments. Ultimately people will spend money because they enjoy the game, feel satisfied and can justify it.

Some people want everything free, some people will willingly spend money on the game. The latter either wants to support the game or at the very least feel that they are being treated fairly as a paying customer. They spend money for exclusive, or earlier access to things, because they're invested in the game. DE doesn't bully people into spending money, the grind is there to increase the longevity of the game, to keep people hunting for loot.

Farming prime parts can be frustrating when you want something specific, but in the end it evens out, and you always get something worthwhile. Even if you don't get something of immediate value, Ducats are essentially a token system for valuable commodities from Baro.

However, when it comes to sorties and raids I do believe moderated RNG would be hugely beneficial to the game and everyone involved. Getting anasas for 10 days straight can be very demotivating for a player, and cause them to start looking for gratification in another game.

Raids can also be really bad. In an effort to revitalise my clan I began to host and teach raids on a daily basis. This initially drew a lot of interest, causing more players to become active again, but then we had a dry spell where we didn't see a single worthwhile arcane drop for a whole 2 months of daily raiding. Obviously a lot of people completely lost interest in raiding, and by extension the game itself, again.

These cases are bad because nobody wants anasas and useless arcanes. It's a big investment for a player to participate in these daily missions with no returns. They are also time gated, so you can't just keep trying again and again to even out the odds - you get your one shot per day.

It's definitely something to seriously consider. Unmoderated RNG can troll players super hard, and when that happens they become disenchanted with the game.

I'm not going to make specific suggestions as to how it should be implemented, there are many possible very simple and efficient strategies, I'm sure DE can figure it out themselves.

[BlackCoMerc]

On 8/12/2017 at 6:29 AM, WhiteMarker said:

Could you explain how your system is more profitable for DE than the current system? (Because that's what matters in the end)

Because money spending customers don't quit out if frustration.

[BlackCoMerc]

On 8/14/2017 at 12:00 AM, Chipputer said:

Every suggested system has just as many drawbacks as RNG and/or would reduce profit for DE. Giving people a guaranteed drop after xx number of runs does nothing but tell people that they have no reason to ever purchase plat beyond cosmetics which would cut out a lot of DE's bottom line. There's no reason to trade parts, any more, because just running another 6 runs gives you the item you're looking for. Prime Access and Unvaultings have no use beyond the Prime Accessories because now everyone knows they just need to run 6 times, total, per new Relic to get everything they're after.

Your system would be far worse for the game's health, as a whole.

Also lol @ the casual mention of taking, "years," to get an item earlier in the thread. Good one. Aside from Stalker drops this has always been hyperbole from people who barely try, refuse to keep trying, and expect the item to fall into their lap.

Yes, because people should have to do the same thing a hundred times to progress. That's GREAT fun.

I know people who just started and are ALREADY frustrated after two weeks if trying for Rhino in the early game. Two weeks, and they're already reaching the "why bother" point.

THAT isn't healthy for the game.

[WNxMatthew]

If you don't like the grind then this is not your game. There is already another thread with another guy complaing about grinding. That thread addressed getting a guarantee of a part after X amount of runs. It is much more exciting to grind for a part then just have it handed to you. 

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, WNxMatthew said:

If you don't like the grind then this is not your game. There is already another thread with another guy complaing about grinding. That thread addressed getting a guarantee of a part after X amount of runs. It is much more exciting to grind for a part then just have it handed to you. 

So beating the boss and getting a reward is "just having it handed to you" now...

Wow. Nice Strawman.

[WNxMatthew]

10 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

So beating the boss and getting a reward is "just having it handed to you" now...

Wow. Nice Strawman.

No dude.....Also, you should not have a guarantee for a what ever you are looking for. The only exception would be the frame quests. If you start having guarantees then this game becomes even more of a checklist than it already is for some people.

Edited September 21, 2017 by WNxMatthew

[WNxMatthew]

@BlackCoMerc If we start going the route of guaranteeing something after a certain amount of tries then why not lower it even more? Why not only give someone the parts they need? If you start making things easier now then other people down the road will start wanting it easier and easier. It doesn't need to be changed. Get over it.