Wukong Ability/Augment Request - Clones

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

Sun Wukong's ability to create clones from his hair, to me, would be an awesome addition to this frame. I want to keep the notion open-ended, as there are many ways it could be implemented, but I thought I'd bring up the topic.

 

If I had to present my own idea for an augment though, it'd be this:

Defy - After the invulnerability period ends, Wukong spawns 2 specter clones for X seconds.

I realize that could potentially be really powerful, but it doesn't feel too absurd vs what already exists in the game.

However the idea could be implemented properly though would be fine by me. It's just a feature I've wanted somewhere in his skillset for a long time, and it's something the game's mechanics would be able to achieve I believe.

[chainchompguy3]

Just wanted to drop by and mention that in the videogame Paragon, their wukong character makes clones upon every successful melee attack. It's quite the interesting mechanic, and leads to some very strong damage output.

 

video:

 

[Nazrethim]

I think it would be a good Augment for his Cloud Walker ability, the monkey king being a trickster in nature it just makes sense that he leaves a copy of himself while he hides in the cloud and laugh his tail off at the sight of enemies pointlessly attacking the copy.

[low1991]

Seriously, this cloning ability should goes to Ash' blade storm where on cast, creates multiple clones to attack enemies, (targetable), while the main Ash remains unaffected. 

I understand this monkey business, but this fits a ninja-ji-su ninja-like frame. And not a hair pulling creating clone frame/character.

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, low1991 said:

Seriously, this cloning ability should goes to Ash' blade storm where on cast, creates multiple clones to attack enemies, (targetable), while the main Ash remains unaffected. 

I understand this monkey business, but this fits a ninja-ji-su ninja-like frame. And not a hair pulling creating clone frame/character.

First, this is a Wukong thread.

Second, no, World on Bladestorm is the dumbest idea ever, with marking mode being the second dumbest idea ever. It's dumber than Sword Art Online.

Third, Sun Wukong's ability to make copies out of his hair it's an older than dirt legend, whereas ninja copy summoning is a very recent invention.

[Windy_Wind]

I think it's better to replace his first with an ability that does with cloning so that you can actively clone without waiting for the enemy to deplete your health. 

[Ventura_Highway]

It is actually somewhat insane that Wukong's ability to clone himself was not represented in game.

[EchoesOfRain]

I've always thought that Clones should be implemented into a balance of Defy

 

Defy: Once Wukong "dies" and his health is restored, he turns invisible for a short duration and spawns a specter of himself. Wukong is vulnerable to damage while invisible, and Defy is turned off until the invisibility wears off. Meanwhile, the Wukong Specter attacks and taunts enemies and keeps aggro away from Wukong and allies. Once the Invisibility wears off Defy is turned back on automatically.

Edited August 22, 2017 by EchoesOfRain

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

50 minutes ago, EchoesOfRain said:

I've always thought that Clones should be implemented into a balance of Defy

 

Defy: Once Wukong "dies" and his health is restored, he turns invisible for a short duration and spawns a specter of himself. Wukong is vulnerable to damage while invisible, and Defy is turned off until the invisibility wears off. Meanwhile, the Wukong Specter attacks and taunts enemies and keeps aggro away from Wukong and allies. Once the Invisibility wears off Defy is turned back on automatically.

 

If that were an augment, that'd be fine, but I honestly really like the brief invulnerability he receives. He has a fairly limited toolset vs most of the cast, and that immortality bonus is slowly becoming less relevant. Both Oberon and Nidus have revival boosts, but MUCH more useful overall skillsets to offset restrictions applied to theirs vs Wukong's. Other frames can achieve levels of defense that make them almost outright unkillable, while Wukong's defenses won't save him at all in higher level missions without Defy. I eat full shield+health for instant death quite often on him in high level missions, but Defy is what really carries his potential, and if you want to maximize it, you have to dedicate most if not all of his mod setup to it.

 

Another Clone possibility could be in a reworked passive. With the addition of combo extension mods, that 2s has lost a lot of its value, and it really isn't a very interesting passive to begin with. They could rework his passive to be "Upon meeting X condition, Wukong has a chance to spawn a Specter Clone. The max number of active clones is limited to #, and the cooldown before it can be triggered again is #s."

Edited August 22, 2017 by (PS4)Vagnar

[EchoesOfRain]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Vagnar said:

 

If that were an augment, that'd be fine, but I honestly really like the brief invulnerability he receives. He has a fairly limited toolset vs most of the cast, and that immortality bonus is slowly becoming less relevant. Both Oberon and Nidus have revival boosts, but MUCH more useful overall skillsets to offset restrictions applied to theirs vs Wukong's. Other frames can achieve levels of defense that make them almost outright unkillable, while Wukong's defenses won't save him at all in higher level missions without Defy. I eat full shield+health for instant death quite often on him in high level missions, but Defy is what really carries his potential, and if you want to maximize it, you have to dedicate most if not all of his mod setup to it.

 

Another Clone possibility could be in a reworked passive. With the addition of combo extension mods, that 2s has lost a lot of its value, and it really isn't a very interesting passive to begin with. They could rework his passive to be "Upon meeting X condition, Wukong has a chance to spawn a Specter Clone. The max number of active clones is limited to #, and the cooldown before it can be triggered again is #s."

But also keep in mind that any form of invincibility needs to have it's drawbacks. Nidus needs to build stacks to avoid death, and even then a lot of stacks are consumed. Oberon's Phoenix Renewal has a long cooldown. Nyx's absorb augment allows her to shoot, but also slows her movement speed to a crawl  and she can't regain energy without picking up energy orbs. Hydroid's undertow is boring, has limited mobility, and can eat energy fast. Wukong just straight up does not die and has infinite energy to keep it up with Rage, while being able to do whatever he wants. That's not okay.

 

My suggestion essentially only makes the skill balanced while keeping it's core function, keeping Wukong alive. Wukong would still get the health back after his health initially reaches zero. Specter taunt and invisibility would keep all aggro away from Wukong. He'd only need to worry about AoE attacks and walking in front of a shooting enemy while he's invisible. And if that isn't enough for you, just use Cloudwalker to stay safe for a couple of seconds. It makes the skill more interesting and more akin to the lore he's based on, which is exactly what Wukong needs in his kit right now

Edited August 22, 2017 by EchoesOfRain

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

It does have a lot of drawbacks though. Nullifers, Scrambus, Magnetc procs, etc can all make it completely irrelevant, and since he's designed to be in the mix, having it drop like that usually means instant death.. It drops when a Manic tackles you. Energy Leech Eximus can ruin it. It has diminishing returns, so you have to risk dropping it and re-applying it. He doesn't have the natural defenses to survive long without it. 

 

It's very expensive to optimize, and the ideal build for it more or less removes the ability to build for other skills. He needs a lot of rank 10 mods, Arcane Grace, etc for it to really stand out. The other drawback is his other skills. Primal Fury gets outshined by normal melee a lot of the time. Cloudwalker has its uses, but isn't heavily utilized in Defy builds. Iron Jab is an OK first skill. He has to get creative to clear a lot of mission types.

 

Nidus has incredible natural survival along with an incredibly useful toolkit for almost any situation. Oberon does as well. Even as a Wukong main, I often switch off of him for Sorties simply because it's easier to clear those missions with many other frames.

 

Were they to rebalance his toolkit, taking a nerf to Defy would be ok, but right now, it's his primary selling point. Taking it away without giving him a lot more in return would probably turn a lot of people off from him.

[UltraLYT]

Completely agreed.  Cloning power of Wukong is just renowned, everybody familiar with the legend knows it.

Wukong without cloning power is actually NOT Wukong!

[EchoesOfRain]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Vagnar said:

It does have a lot of drawbacks though. Nullifers, Scrambus, Magnetc procs, etc can all make it completely irrelevant, and since he's designed to be in the mix, having it drop like that usually means instant death.. It drops when a Manic tackles you. Energy Leech Eximus can ruin it. It has diminishing returns, so you have to risk dropping it and re-applying it. He doesn't have the natural defenses to survive long without it. 

 

It's very expensive to optimize, and the ideal build for it more or less removes the ability to build for other skills. He needs a lot of rank 10 mods, Arcane Grace, etc for it to really stand out. The other drawback is his other skills. Primal Fury gets outshined by normal melee a lot of the time. Cloudwalker has its uses, but isn't heavily utilized in Defy builds. Iron Jab is an OK first skill. He has to get creative to clear a lot of mission types.

 

Nidus has incredible natural survival along with an incredibly useful toolkit for almost any situation. Oberon does as well. Even as a Wukong main, I often switch off of him for Sorties simply because it's easier to clear those missions with many other frames.

 

Were they to rebalance his toolkit, taking a nerf to Defy would be ok, but right now, it's his primary selling point. Taking it away without giving him a lot more in return would probably turn a lot of people off from him.

 

I think this can be summed up as "If Defy is reworked, the rest of his kit needs a rework".  He honestly needs it. I think he's got a bit of Hydroid Syndrome, he's a bit boring to play and his abilities may be a bit hard/awkward to use.

 

I think Wukong needs a bit more of a thematic revisit, making him actually feel more like Sun Wukong. 

[GhostFeng]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2017 at 0:22 PM, EchoesOfRain said:

Defy: Once Wukong "dies" and his health is restored, he turns invisible for a short duration and spawns a specter of himself. Wukong is vulnerable to damage while invisible, and Defy is turned off until the invisibility wears off. Meanwhile, the Wukong Specter attacks and taunts enemies and keeps aggro away from Wukong and allies. Once the Invisibility wears off Defy is turned back on automatically.

 

On Tuesday, August 22, 2017 at 1:12 PM, (PS4)Vagnar said:

Another Clone possibility could be in a reworked passive. With the addition of combo extension mods, that 2s has lost a lot of its value, and it really isn't a very interesting passive to begin with. They could rework his passive to be "Upon meeting X condition, Wukong has a chance to spawn a Specter Clone. The max number of active clones is limited to #, and the cooldown before it can be triggered again is #s."

 

I vote for both of these. EchoesOfRain's idea is perfect for the legend of Wukong, gives a fun and interesting new element to one of his best abilities, and actually adds some potential for a team play element (similar to Saryn throwing a molt to occupy enemies when needed). Let's say you're in a high level survival mission and you want a decoy in a door way to block enemies from entering a room and to pack them all into a very small area; with Defy on, run into the doorway Leroy Jenkins style, go ham on the group till they take you out (or just stand there and take it like the little monkey you are), run away invisible and watch them go to work on your clone. Sounds fun to me. Then just to really get the idea of Wukong having clones in there, give him the updated passive that Vagnar described. 

 

 

 

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Nazrethim said:

I think it would be a good Augment for his Cloud Walker ability, the monkey king being a trickster in nature it just makes sense that he leaves a copy of himself while he hides in the cloud and laugh his tail off at the sight of enemies pointlessly attacking the copy.

 

I came into this thread looking for some ideas for his Cloud Walker ability. Wukong has been a favorite frame of mine since he came out and I haven't done too much with this ability until tonight. With a max duration build, I went into a mission solo and found out how much fun his Cloud Walker can make the stealth gameplay in Warframe. While in cloud you can survey an entire room of enemies, plan the kill order, then pop out of cloud behind each enemy one by one, finish them, then immediately pop back into cloud to move behind the next one. With that being said, I was never able to get a stealth finisher on any staggered (previously unalerted enemies) even though as per the Wiki:

           "Unalerted enemies staggered by Cloud Walker remain unalerted during the stagger animation, and thus can engage Stealth Kill Affinity Bonuses when killed." 

I would like to see a Cloud Walker Augment that enhances this type of gameplay and in the least, makes sure that any staggered, unalerted enemies will give stealth finisher bonuses. If the augment created a clone, it would completely nullify any form of stealth / invisibility gameplay. I personally would love to see a Cloud Walker augment that allows Wukong to safely pass through Spy vault and Rescue lasers (similar to Ivara's Infiltrate augment).

Edited August 27, 2017 by GhostFeng
Enhancements

[UltraLYT]

The stunning effect of Cloud Walker is completely bugged, I have 183% duration and 18.8m stun range, the following was observed in simulacrum:

1) If I do not do anything after stunning the unalerted mobs, they will wake up and start to shoot me after just few seconds. 

2) If I stealth-kill one of the stunned mobs, the rest will immediately wake up and start to shoot me.

[EchoesOfRain]

On 8/27/2017 at 3:35 AM, GhostFeng said:

I came into this thread looking for some ideas for his Cloud Walker ability. Wukong has been a favorite frame of mine since he came out and I haven't done too much with this ability until tonight. With a max duration build, I went into a mission solo and found out how much fun his Cloud Walker can make the stealth gameplay in Warframe. While in cloud you can survey an entire room of enemies, plan the kill order, then pop out of cloud behind each enemy one by one, finish them, then immediately pop back into cloud to move behind the next one. With that being said, I was never able to get a stealth finisher on any staggered (previously unalerted enemies) even though as per the Wiki:

           "Unalerted enemies staggered by Cloud Walker remain unalerted during the stagger animation, and thus can engage Stealth Kill Affinity Bonuses when killed." 

I would like to see a Cloud Walker Augment that enhances this type of gameplay and in the least, makes sure that any staggered, unalerted enemies will give stealth finisher bonuses. If the augment created a clone, it would completely nullify any form of stealth / invisibility gameplay. I personally would love to see a Cloud Walker augment that allows Wukong to safely pass through Spy vault and Rescue lasers (similar to Ivara's Infiltrate augment).

 

Cloudwalker: Now cloaks allies within the cloud, while blinding enemies within the cloud.

Keeps its usefulness in stealth missions, even more so by preventing enemies from seeing you as you exit Cloudwalker to stealth kill by blinding them. It also would help during normal missions by CC'ing enemies. 

Augment: Stormwalker: While in Cloudwalker, Wukong  becomes a storm cloud that can shoot bolts of lightning to deal light damage and 100% proc electricity. Lightning bolts cost energy to shoot. Enemies that walk into Cloudwalker receive constant electricity procs and damage.

Might not enhance stealth play, but definitely changes up how the skill is used. Allows Wukong to become a bit of an aggressive support frame by being able to CC enemies from afar.

 

 They may not be the best ideas in terms of stealth play, but I believe Cloudwalker should be more useful in normal missions first, so I tried to cater to both

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

In light of Ballistica Prime and the passive it has, Wukong could feasibly work with something similar.

 

Kills spawn a short lived Wukong specter with a maximum limit and a brief cooldown between spawns.