Playing in Echo Chambers. the Vocal Minority vs the Silent Majority

[knightlol]

So, I have been playing Warframe for a long time and there is one thing I am sure everyone here agrees with. The game is improperly balanced. Hence sometimes Nerfs are needed and other times Buffs are needed. I am not here to argue that these things arent needed and that these things shouldnt happen. 

However, I would like to point out that people need to stop playing in echo chambers and pushing what they feel is the right course of action on to everyone else.

Just because you do not understand why a certain thing can be fun for others doesnt mean you have the right to force them out of the game. If you do not like something in your game. There is the option to leave or set up your own teams. But dont assume that in pub groups people need to bend to your wills. Just because you dont get every kill in the game doesnt mean that you get to be mad at the person who does who has put effort in to their warframe or weapon. Just because you want to camp, doesnt mean others should be forced to camp with you. 

Does it make the coop experience harder. Yes absolutely. But being angry about things and then taking your anger out by ruining things that the general public likes is nonsense and I think it needs to stop. 

People will say well so many are talking about it, it must be an issue. Is it really though? Are they only talking about it because they are angry? What about those who arent on the forums who are perfectly fine with things.

Anyways this is sort of ramblely but the TL:DR is dont try to police how players play in pubs, and that thing that you and all your friends hate might be loved and enjoyed by everyone else so maybe get some exposure to more thoughts on it before complaining to high heaven till its gone. 

Anyways leave your thoughts below. 

Quick Edit before anyone asks. yes this is due to the Ember=no fun thread that was locked earlier. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by knightlol

[phoenix1992]

You can't play the democracy game when it comes to balancing. 
But you can't play the "meta forum topic" game either. 
The truth considering Warframe is that there are 3 type of issues :
1) Mathematical fail considering mechanics - Things like having 99% bless trinity, extreme damage output with low cost and so on. Feelly craft like "mah ember is not strong/ember is too strong" does nothing if it is not based on numbers. 
2) Faulty behavior of elements - also know as simply... Bugs. 
3) Unexpected behavior - things that went out of the QA cycle without being tested and bring havoc to the game balance. It can be both a fail considering how the output/input was crunched out with mods, or simple bugs with interactions.

You will notice that "I feel that this is overpowered" is not in here. 
PS: Considering we have Rivens, game balance is not on the menu.

Edit : Camping strategies come from the "over/under" performance of certain players. I Don't camp because I am not playing "hide frame", but I can see how it is an issue for people with lower power curve. Player induced issues are not issues, it is approach to a problem.

Edited August 29, 2017 by phoenix1992

[AlphaPHENIX]

25 minutes ago, knightlol said:

Just because you want to camp, doesnt mean others should be forced to camp with you. 

My feelings exactly in every survival be it pubs or not.

[Rann0n]

Excuse me? How can anyone force you to play the way they want? If a player sees a playstyle he/she doesn't like, all he/she can do is to post here their feedback about it, ask the devs to alter the things that allow it. For example, I don't like Banshee's Soundquake because it forces everyone in the squad, including Banshee, out of the actual gameplay. I don't like Ember's World on Fire because it's too weak to use at high-level content but at the same time it's ridiculously overpowered at lower levels leaving nothing to do.

After the feedback is posted, if and when it's taken into consideration by devs, it's still up for them do decide whether they want to make some changes or leave everything as is.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Rann0n

[artemisfortune]

I've always believed that every player should be booted and receive mission success as soon as they hit extract, allowing total control and freedom of every player in their own playstyle, even in PUBs.

Edited August 29, 2017 by JSharpie

[Trichouette]

21 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

I've always believed that every player should be booted and receive mission success as soon as they hit extract, allowing total control and freedom of every player in their own playstyle, even in PUBs.

I think that's the feature I've seen requested the most (beside "votekick") and yet.... we're waiting.

How many times did I see players geting angry because they wanted to leave or because they didn't want to leave (quite funny when the last one happens in PUBs, you can't expect random players to play a run as long as you want)

 

More on topic though, I wonder why DE is trying to balance stuff and at the same time they do everything to break the balance as much as possible.

Unless money and/or powercreep (to attract players) I can't see the point of doing such things.

(example : Nerf the tonkor, release something even more OP and safer than the tonkor, the lenz)

 

44 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

PS: Considering we have Rivens, game balance is not on the menu.

Nice sum up of warframe's current situation.

45 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Edit : Camping strategies come from the "over/under" performance of certain players. I Don't camp because I am not playing "hide frame", but I can see how it is an issue for people with lower power curve. Player induced issues are not issues, it is approach to a problem.

You forgot one thing thought. Some players are camping because the game is sometimes (often) quite boring on endless runs.

Camping allow them (or at least, part of them) to be partially afk and do something else while other players are doing the killing.

For example nekros can be totally afk now while EV will do her thing and another frame do the killing/CC

Edited August 29, 2017 by Trichouette

[failedtodiet]

 

16 minutes ago, Rann0n said:

Excuse me? How can anyone force you to play the way they want? If a player sees a playstyle he/she doesn't like, all he/she can do is to post here their feedback about it, ask the devs to alter the things that allow it. For example, I don't like Banshee's Soundquake because it forces everyone in the squad, including Banshee, out of the actual gameplay. I don't like Ember's World on Fire because it's too weak to use at high-level content but at the same time it's ridiculously overpowered at lower levels leaving nothing to do.

After the feedback is posted, if and when it's taken into consideration by devs, it's still up for them do decide whether they want to make some changes or leave everything as is.

That's a great example about how people passively forcing what "they want" on others, thank you very much!. I'm not sure which side of the force you're on tho.

 

Simple solution is: get a friend, or 2, or 3. It's not so hard.

[knightlol]

14 minutes ago, Rann0n said:

Excuse me? How can anyone force you to play the way they want? If a player sees a playstyle he/she doesn't like, all he/she can do is to post here their feedback about it, ask the devs to alter the things that allow it. For example, I don't like Banshee's Soundquake because it forces everyone in the squad, including Banshee, out of the actual gameplay. I don't like Ember's World on Fire because it's too weak to use at high-level content but at the same time it's ridiculously overpowered at lower levels leaving nothing to do.

After the feedback is posted, if and when it's taken into consideration by devs, it's still up for them do decide whether they want to make some changes or leave everything as is.

This is the type of stuff I am talking about though, Just because you do not like it doesnt mean others dont. And by overly complaining about things like this which is really a play style issue. If you do not like that play style simply leave. Instead you make it a bigger issue and demand that the things these players enjoy are removed from the game. And since its the vocal minority that does it not the content happy masses. Its the others who suffer. 

38 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

You can't play the democracy game when it comes to balancing. 
But you can't play the "meta forum topic" game either. 
The truth considering Warframe is that there are 3 type of issues :
1) Mathematical fail considering mechanics - Things like having 99% bless trinity, extreme damage output with low cost and so on. Feelly craft like "mah ember is not strong/ember is too strong" does nothing if it is not based on numbers. 
2) Faulty behavior of elements - also know as simply... Bugs. 
3) Unexpected behavior - things that went out of the QA cycle without being tested and bring havoc to the game balance. It can be both a fail considering how the output/input was crunched out with mods, or simple bugs with interactions.

You will notice that "I feel that this is overpowered" is not in here. 
PS: Considering we have Rivens, game balance is not on the menu.

Edit : Camping strategies come from the "over/under" performance of certain players. I Don't camp because I am not playing "hide frame", but I can see how it is an issue for people with lower power curve. Player induced issues are not issues, it is approach to a problem.

I agree with most everything you said. The real question is how do we fix the issues that are set forth as player induced issues. But not real issues. 

[Rann0n]

2 minutes ago, failedtodiet said:

 

That's a great example about how people passively forcing what "they want" on others, thank you very much!. I'm not sure which side of the force you're on tho.

 

Simple solution is: get a friend, or 2, or 3. It's not so hard.

Only devs can force you to play the way they want, I can only give them ideas.

[failedtodiet]

Just now, Rann0n said:

Only devs can force you to play the way they want, I can only give them ideas.

Which is why i said "passively"

[knightlol]

2 minutes ago, failedtodiet said:

 

That's a great example about how people passively forcing what "they want" on others, thank you very much!. I'm not sure which side of the force you're on tho.

 

Simple solution is: get a friend, or 2, or 3. It's not so hard.

Thing is here that the people who demand the changes and want to force their play style are also those who are most unwilling to give up what they have. This kind of hypocritical thought is really part of he reason why I made this post. 

[phoenix1992]

Just now, knightlol said:

I agree with most everything you said. The real question is how do we fix the issues that are set forth as player induced issues. But not real issues. 

We steal from Blizzard and other companies.
LFG tool that has preset modifiers  - "Aggressive approach, Speed run, In a certain MR limit and so on", if you don't select any of the preset modifiers you receive a resource/drop rate buff or something in this line. 
This way you can split hallway heroes (guilty of that, I have no time for 10 min Lith ext), and players that want to enjoy the game on a slower pace, while also giving a carrot for the "better equipped" to help other players. Hell there can even be negative modifier if you set way too many requirements.

[JazaJ]

Very nice thread. Completely agree with 90% of what has been said, bar a few things here and there. I just finished a 20 min survival where we had a Banshee crying the whole time because we didn't want to sit in a corner somewhere and play corridor warriors. 

It is kinda sad that the vocal minority usually gets their way with "balance" and whatnot, but that seems to be the case in almost every online game lately. 

[phoenix1992]

8 minutes ago, failedtodiet said:

That's a great example about how people passively forcing what "they want" on others, thank you very much!. I'm not sure which side of the force you're on tho.

 

Simple solution is: get a friend, or 2, or 3. It's not so hard.

Implying that DE changes things based on "someone said in the forums" and they change it fast based on that is a lie. 
Tonkor and Draco are testaments that even if there is well know "Community issue" with a certain aspects of the game, they won't be changed on a whim.

[Rann0n]

3 minutes ago, knightlol said:

This is the type of stuff I am talking about though, Just because you do not like it doesnt mean others dont. And by overly complaining about things like this which is really a play style issue. If you do not like that play style simply leave. Instead you make it a bigger issue and demand that the things these players enjoy are removed from the game. And since its the vocal minority that does it not the content happy masses. Its the others who suffer.

No thanks, I don't wanna be a passive player. If everyone was going by your logic, Excalibur may have still had Super Jump instead of Exalted Blade, all the frames could remain clunky helicopters and we could never see the awesome Parlour 2.0.

I get it, you like the way things are now, but it doesn't mean you won't like the possible changes.

Anyways, no matter if the changes make the gameplay healthier, there will always be players who complain. A necessary sacrifice I guess.

[knightlol]

4 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

We steal from Blizzard and other companies.
LFG tool that has preset modifiers  - "Aggressive approach, Speed run, In a certain MR limit and so on", if you don't select any of the preset modifiers you receive a resource/drop rate buff or something in this line. 
This way you can split hallway heroes (guilty of that, I have no time for 10 min Lith ext), and players that want to enjoy the game on a slower pace, while also giving a carrot for the "better equipped" to help other players. Hell there can even be negative modifier if you set way too many requirements.

These would be nice additions, but As said before it does not seem like DE is really super in to balance right now thats meaningful. Almost everything tends to be bandaid fixes.

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Implying that DE changes things based on "someone said in the forums" and they change it fast based on that is a lie. 
Tonkor and Draco are testaments that even if there is well know "Community issue" with a certain aspects of the game, they won't be changed on a whim.

No they are indeed slow, but sometimes they are super fast. Sometimes its a quick gut reaction nerf that would hit hard, and hit fast. We have seen it happen in the past. hell first day the lenz was released their were nerf threads because it out killed people lol and remember the quick cusaysticst nerf. 

[knightlol]

4 hours ago, Rann0n said:

No thanks, I don't wanna be a passive player. If everyone was going by your logic, Excalibur may have still had Super Jump instead of Exalted Blade, all the frames could remain clunky helicopters and we could never see the awesome Parlour 2.0.

I get it, you like the way things are now, but it doesn't mean you won't like the possible changes.

Anyways, no matter if the changes make the gameplay healthier, there will always be players who complain. A necessary sacrifice I guess.

Well then just leave the matches where you see it happen. Once again YOU dont want  be that type of player. Doesnt mean others dont enjoy it. What right do you have to strip how they want to play? I didnt say change wasnt necessary. I am just saying some of the issues that players say are a big deal are actually non issues. They tend to be players just pushing their playstyle on to others. Which is what your demonstrating here. I dont wana do this, i dont wana do that. 

[failedtodiet]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Implying that DE changes things based on "someone said in the forums" and they change it fast based on that is a lie. 
Tonkor and Draco are testaments that even if there is well know "Community issue" with a certain aspects of the game, they won't be changed on a whim.

I'm not implying anything like you said. That's merely point out the core problem of most feed back threads about "fun-sucker" stuff. If you want more fun, play with friends!.

And don't call people lier because you feel like to.

[phoenix1992]

2 minutes ago, failedtodiet said:

I'm not implying anything like you said. That's merely point out the core problem of most feed back threads about "fun-sucker" stuff. If you want more fun, play with friends!.

And don't call people lier because you feel like to.

Forum feedback can not be considered "passively forcing" , because... drum rolls - it is the only feedback you can give. Passive implies that there is an active form that is usually used for this - which again is the feedback forum.  So the statement "Posting in the forums is passively forcing" while also stating that just the act of posting is "forcing" is... not true. On top of that that feedback is considered, not implied directly unless in extreme examples, as mentioned by the person you quoted.

45 minutes ago, Rann0n said:

After the feedback is posted, if and when it's taken into consideration by devs, it's still up for them do decide whether they want to make some changes or leave everything as is.

Political correctness is not in my "to have" list, but if you prefer "alternative truth" - have it your way.

[Rann0n]

2 minutes ago, knightlol said:

Well then just leave the matches where you see it happen. Once again YOU dont want  be that type of player. Doesnt mean others dont enjoy it. What right do you have to strip how they want to play? I didnt say change wasnt necessary. I am just saying some of the issues that players say are a big deal are actually non issues. They tend to be players just pushing their playstyle on to others. Which is what your demonstrating here. I dont wana do this, i dont wana do that.

You got it wrong - by passive player I meant a silent player who doesn't voice his opinion.

And why do you you think it's only about how others play? What if I want to use Ember as a damage-dealing warframe at high levels effectively? I can't propose a rework for her ult that makes it viable with some drawbacks in return? Why? Because you want her to be a low-level nuker? That's just kinda your opinion man. And it's totally fine to have it. But let me have my own opinion too. Thank you.

[Airwolfen]

11 minutes ago, knightlol said:

How is this a meta complaint its a complaint against those who complain about the meta. 

A meta complaint is a complaint about people complaining. it offers NO constructive feedback on the game, and most of the times devolves into a discussion for the simple sake of making others contort to their ideas (hint: you are not going to change other people their minds), and so is not something that should be on the forums. DE has made their stance on this quite clear.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Airwolfen

[knightlol]

5 minutes ago, Rann0n said:

You got it wrong - by passive player I meant a silent player who doesn't voice his opinion.

And why do you you think it's only about how others play? What if I want to use Ember as a damage-dealing warframe at high levels effectively? I can't propose a rework for her ult that makes it viable with some drawbacks in return? Why? Because you want her to be a low-level nuker? That's just kinda your opinion man. And it's totally fine to have it. But let me have my own opinion too. Thank you.

Right but the big thing here, voicing your opinion is one thing, demanding something must be changed because its a total player issue When its not is another thing. You can have your opinions but im trying to say leave your echo chambers and see what other peoples opinions are. Try to actually understand why a player wants to play a certain way. To your point there are plenty of high level frames that can suit your needs. Why does every low level nuker need to be changed to match your style?

4 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

A meta complaint is a complaint about people complaining. it offers NO constructive feedback on the game, and most of the times devolves into a discussion for the simple sake of making others contort to their ideas (hint: you are not going to change other people their minds), and so is not something that should be on the forums. DE has made their stance on this quite clear.

This thread isnt just a complain about people complaining though that is part of it. Its more about getting people to step out of their own echo cambers.This is also just general discussions and not ment to be an out right give constructive feed back. I am just looking on peoples thoughts hence why thats part of my original post.  

[phoenix1992]

14 minutes ago, knightlol said:

How is this a meta complaint its a complaint against those who complain about the meta. 

The logical loop on that is pretty simple :
Person A makes an accusation towards a certain element. Person B does not share this opinion and answers Person A in the same topic in the same same context. If person B makes a new topic branding that "Person A" is wrong and this is why, it comes out of context and continuity.  
The only way to reinforce that you really do not believe that person A is right, is to take the high road and deconstruct the element in question. Since Ember is a topic that is picked on, let's her as example: 

Topic 1:

Person A : Ember's WoF is antifun! 
Person B: Ember is fine, any decent frame and build will sneeze in the general direction of level 30 enemies and they will die.
Person A: But it kills the new player experience! 
And so on in in topic 1.

Topic 2 (meta) :
Person B: People are wrong to think that Ember is anti fun!

Topic 3 (not meta):
Person B: This is accumulative research on AoE capabilities of frames, which serves what purpose and the implementations of those purposes in Early/Mid/High level missions. Ember is one of those frames.

[knightlol]

2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

The logical loop on that is pretty simple :
Person A makes an accusation towards a certain element. Person B does not share this opinion and answers Person A in the same topic in the same same context. If person B makes a new topic branding that "Person A" is wrong and this is why, it comes out of context and continuity.  
The only way to reinforce that you really do not believe that person A is right, is to take the high road and deconstruct the element in question. Since Ember is a topic that is picked on, let's her as example: 

Topic 1:

Person A : Ember's WoF is antifun! 
Person B: Ember is fine, any decent frame and build will sneeze in the general direction of level 30 enemies and they will die.
Person A: But it kills the new player experience! 
And so on in in topic 1.

Topic 2 (meta) :
Person B: People are wrong to think that Ember is anti fun!

Topic 3 (not meta):
Person B: This is accumulative research on AoE capabilities of frames, which serves what purpose and the implementations of those purposes in Early/Mid/High level missions. Ember is one of those frames.

I see where you are coming from, which is why I would like to keep this from just becoming a complain thread. Not my original intention. 

[Airwolfen]

1 minute ago, knightlol said:

This thread isnt just a complain about people complaining though that is part of it. Its more about getting people to step out of their own echo cambers.This is also just general discussions and not ment to be an out right give constructive feed back. I am just looking on peoples thoughts hence why thats part of my original post.  

Yes, as I said. A metacomplaint thread. thrugh and through. You are not talking about the game. you are talking about how other people should think, warframe in this case is just a underlying topic. that is EXACTLY why metacomplaint threads are closed as soon as a dev/mod gets wind of it.