Combo counter for snipers makes no sense

[Antiphoton]

As many fellow Tenno have pointed out in the past week, the whole combo system is counter-intuitive to what the sniper archetype represents. With the current iteration we are expected to shoot many shots in a very short time in order to maximise our damage. However, what has come to be accepted as a standard "sniper" playstyle in many other games is the opposite: to wait and be patient until you can make one shot and make the most out of it - mostly analyzing enemy movements and line of sight.

What I propose:

- Keep the current combo counter in one or two sniper rifles for the sake of variety.

- Remove the combo counter completely for other sniper rifles (like the Vectis series, considering their magazine size has very little synergy with the current system). Replace it with a bar that takes X seconds to fill, and it starts filling as soon as you aim with the scope. Unfilled, the rifle has a bonus damage multiplier equal to a combo counter of x1 (no combo). Filled, the rifle has a bonus damage multiplier equal to what today is a combo counter of x2 or x2.5 (to be decided according to the needed balance pass).

For comparison, this idea is very similar to what Blizzard did with Widowmaker in Overwatch. Despite it being a PVP game, most encounters there take place against fast moving targets in maps of very similar size to our tilesets. If it works there, I don't see why it wouldn't work here. The same applies to the open space of the upcoming plains: a sniper rifle shot feels a lot more meaningful if I need to take several seconds of preparation in order for it to do more damage, rather than having to shoot as fast as I can while praying that the AI of my target doesn't decide to make an unexpected u-turn while I'm spamming LMB on it.

 

And as a side note: unscoped penalty. Remove it, please. You see it appear mostly in competitive PVP shooters for the sake of balance. It has absolutely no reason of being in a horde shooter as Warframe, it just adds to the pile of reasons to not use sniper rifles. Balance is not an issue here, considering that even a non-rivened Tigris shotgun is better at any range than an unscoped sniper rifle.

[Katinka]

I disagree with removing the combo bonus.  I feel that there should be a reward for snipers who manage to get in the groove and repeatedly score successful hits.  Reducing hte penalty for not doing it quickly sounds good though as it should be about successful accuracy and remaining calm, rather than rapid, panicked shots.

Regarding the unscoped penalty, I don't even think it makes sense in PvP.  If someone is skilled enough to head shot without the aid of a scope then they deserve the extra damage.  Scopes are there to help with accuracy, not damage, so any non-scoped penalty should be related to the inherent inaccuracy of firing a long barrelled weapon without bracing it, where the smallest twitch could send it way off target.

[Duduminador]

And then there will be EVEN more people complaining that "Warframe is hur-dur-fast why have a gimmick that encourages slow play style?" Which has been the only excuse to opose every single nerf ever proposed to World on Fire, Maim & Mend, Whips on Maiming strike etc...

Don't get me wrong, I support the death of all ability spam on Warframe and the end of spin to win. But I don't understand why snipers, that already can one hit kill everything but Bosses (some of them) need any gimmick change, specially don't understand why they need to deal 10 times their current damage when they can already overkill mobs that will likely die if they get hit with 1/10 of the current achievable damage.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Duduminador

[Gweredith]

43 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

we are expected to shoot many shots in a very short time in order to maximise our damage. However, what has come to be accepted as a standard "sniper" playstyle in many other games is the opposite: to wait and be patient until you can make one shot and make the most out of it - mostly analyzing enemy movements and line of sight.

 Yet unlike those other games, Warframe is very fast paced. While you take your time to aim that one guy, someone else will pop their one ability and clear the whole room or whip everything to death in one hit. Not to mention that taking your time to aim a perfect shot requires you to be stationary, like in other games, or move very little, which would end up in you either being swarmed by enemies who would toss you around and be annoying or dying.

 

 "For comparison, this idea is very similar to what Blizzard did with Widowmaker in Overwatch. Despite it being a PVP game, most encounters there take place against fast moving targets in maps of very similar size to our tilesets. If it works there, I don't see why it wouldn't work here."

 Again, in Overwatch you have, what, 4 or 8 opponents? In Warframe you constantly have dozens of enemies.

 On the other hand, I do agree with you that the combo counter being 2 seconds is too short and that it ruins the sniping experience by rushing the player to quickly make the shot. I think that we could solve that problem and make the sniper experience feel much more 'natural' if the combo counter duration would be increased to, for example, 4-6 seconds. That way we could take our time between the shots.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Gweredith

[Katinka]

31 minutes ago, Duduminador said:

Don't get me wrong, I support the death of all ability spam on Warframe and the end of spin to win. But I don't understand why snipers, that already can one hit kill everything but Bosses (some of them) need any gimmick change, specially don't understand why they need to deal 10 times their current damage when they can already overkill mobs that will likely die if they get hit with 1/10 of the current achievable damage.

If people thought outside the box a little they'd realise that this damage boost means they don't need to mod for damage as much as they do with other weapons and can then make room for other mods such as reload speed, fire rate or magazine size to help keep that combo up.

[tnccs215]

18 hours ago, Katinka said:

I disagree with removing the combo bonus.  I feel that there should be a reward for snipers who manage to get in the groove and repeatedly score successful hits.  Reducing hte penalty for not doing it quickly sounds good though as it should be about successful accuracy and remaining calm, rather than rapid, panicked shots.

Regarding the unscoped penalty, I don't even think it makes sense in PvP.  If someone is skilled enough to head shot without the aid of a scope then they deserve the extra damage.  Scopes are there to help with accuracy, not damage, so any non-scoped penalty should be related to the inherent inaccuracy of firing a long barrelled weapon without bracing it, where the smallest twitch could send it way off target.

Except... Not. 

The issue isn't with the fact that there is a reward for accuracy - I personally very much agree with that. The issue is that the way this reward works is antithetical to the concept of sniping and actively prevents several better implementations much more suited to that because "it would be too powerful". 

Sniping is more than just using a gun with a scope - it is trading speed and error-window for raw power. One shot, one kill. 

The combo counter, by design, doesn't encourage this. By putting stress to keep the counter running, and by making sure that the first shot is always the weakest, snipers in Warframe are not designed for careful, perfectly precise shots, but to quick, successive ones - something that is only going to be aggravated with the upcoming rework, with extra emphasis on chaining shots and a further reduction on the punishment for missing them. 

I'm not saying that a playstyle that prefers to chain quick shots one after the other is not legitimate, not at all. What I'm saying is that anyone who prefers to trade speed for power has literally nowhere to turn in this game - save, perhaps, for the Tigris Prime. 

This is not about making snipers good, but about making snipers good while keeping them snipers. Which is not happening. 

If you want rewards for well placed shots, consider instead what someone said over another thread: putting an innate argon scope mechanic on snipers: reward accurate shots by benefiting those very shots, and by giving some lee way on subsequent innacurate ones. 

And no one is  saying that no sniper should have these mechanics! No, the category should cover the whole spectrum of medium-to-long range playstyles, from the traditional slow sniping to more active ones such as the ones the rework will encourage. But for a game pricing itself so  much on giving player choice, the changes that will happen are sure ways to remove them. 

[TaylorsContraction]

The damage bonuses from the combo mechanic have always been nice on snipers. The problem was instant decay to 0 for missing or not firing within the combo time limit. Now the decay is slowed down, I'll need to see what it's like before I can comment on it.

Do you even use the vectis btw? I rack up my combo pretty quick with it, it benefits from the combo mechanic more than any other sniper because of its fast reload.