Void damage needs to be true damage

[Zorag]

It's the only thing that holding it back from being at lest somewhat reliable damage option (not talking about sortie-level of enemies). Right now bounty 5 enemies (that in the same content-zone as amps) can hold numerous shots from it, so there's just no reason to bother shooting at all. I'm suggesting true damage because it's VOID DAMAGE and it being affected by armor really kills the feeling of some special power that it should have. Mechanics that allow you to bypass armor would be a decent thing too, but implementing it through custom part of the amp will make this part mandatory.

Eh, i just want to feel like operator can do stuff now (and it terms of focus he can, i like 2.0 version of it; with some exceptions), i don't need my amp to be another Tigris Prime but something special and somewhat useful.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Zorag

[TankHunter678]

Bounty 5 enemies are sortie level enemies. The main difference being attack, reinforcement, and support methods rather then just being given a buff to make an ordinary enemy stronger.

[Zorag]

12 minutes ago, TankHunter678 said:

Bounty 5 enemies are sortie level enemies. The main difference being attack, reinforcement, and support methods rather then just being given a buff to make an ordinary enemy stronger.

Well, firstly, i implied more like 80-100 levels - sorties maximum, and compared it to Plains maximum which is just 60. Secondly, what are you saying? That amp doesn't need to have any use above lvl 30 enemies? People who have access to the amp (and focus) by definition likely to be stronger that lvl 30 enemies, and rarely gonna spend time fighting them, which makes amp useless outside Eidolon fights.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Zorag

[TankHunter678]

1 minute ago, Zorag said:

Well, firstly, i implied more like 80-100 levels - sorties maximum, and compared it to Plains maximum which is just 60. Secondly, what are you saying? That amp doesn't need to have any use above lvl 30 enemies? People who have access to the amp (and focus) by definition likely to be stronger that lvl 30 enemies, and rarely spend gonna spend time fighting them.

Then you should have specified Sortie 3 level enemies, not sortie level enemies in general.

Also Bounty 5 enemies with Air support, especially multiple Ogmas, and mortar support can put up as much of a fight as Sortie 3 enemies. Throw in their ability to spawn enemies directly on top of you and its quite a challenge.

Just because the level number is lesser do not underestimate them, they have access to stuff that sortie level enemies do not.

 

Also I never said anything that AMP does not need to have a use against anything above level 30, you were the one saying that by saying sortie level enemies in general. I was just pointing out that Bounty 5 IS sortie level.

[Zorag]

16 minutes ago, TankHunter678 said:

Then you should have specified Sortie 3 level enemies, not sortie level enemies in general.

Also Bounty 5 enemies with Air support, especially multiple Ogmas, and mortar support can put up as much of a fight as Sortie 3 enemies. Throw in their ability to spawn enemies directly on top of you and its quite a challenge.

Just because the level number is lesser do not underestimate them, they have access to stuff that sortie level enemies do not.

 

Also I never said anything that AMP does not need to have a use against anything above level 30, you were the one saying that by saying sortie level enemies in general. I was just pointing out that Bounty 5 IS sortie level.

Yeah, that's true - enemies in bounty 5 can give you a lot of trouble, and can be harder to deal with sometimes. They have many ways to attack you, like an actual military unit, not just some sortie buff and high stats. But the stats IS what i was talking about. Fighting scenarios aside - you can't reliable kill armored lvl60 enemy (and it's pretty reasonable level to still be able to do it with your amp - that's the point). With that being said, i have no problem not killing lvl 100 enemies with it.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Zorag

[ShakeyMac]

Semantic nitpicking kills the thread.  It should have been obvious he meant "high sortie" levels because there's no one who plays this game who says a thing is "sortie viable" and means "but only for the first sortie."  If someone says something is "sortie viable" they mean for ALL the sortie missions.  So his use of "sortie level" is appropriate.

And once again, semantic nitpicking kills the thread.  Two responses and nothing to address what OP said.

More to the point, I agree OP.  Ever since the concept of "void" damage was implemented into the game I always thought it should be treated like "non-elemental" damage is in Final Fantasy games.  That is to say, it's weaker than it's elemental counterparts when facing something vulnerable to said elements, but on an overall level it's strength comes from having no weaknesses.  It's useful against all things, all the time.  Not for insane levels of damage (usually) but for reliably being able to take something down even if you can't exploit a vulnerability (or have no vulnerabilities to exploit).

Extrapolating that to Warframe, void damage should be something that deals a universal type of damage regardless of resistances or weaknesses.  Sentients should have a weakness to void damage, but it shouldn't be an insane weakness.  Maybe 10-20% more damage, so you're encouraged to use your void stuff for more than just wiping damage immunity, but not encouraged to rely on it solely.  I'm not 100% in agreement with ignoring armor, because that would be just a bit too strong (ok, probably really strong).  I would prefer something more unique to void damage.  Specifically, I'd like to void damage have certain effects based on the type of armor/flesh/shields being attacked.  I.e. using void damage on alloy armor could cause a violent reaction in the armor itself.  This would be represented as small instances of blast damage, sort of like a mini-blast dot, that occurs periodically over the course of a second or two, damaging the enemy and other nearby enemies.  Likewise, flesh could "warp" when hit with void damage, inflicting what amounts to a portion of the void damage as viral to the target.  Stuff like that would be unique, pretty cool if done right, and would give some incentive to utilize void damage without completely overshadowing "normal" damage.

In short, I'd like to see something completely different with void damage, with an emphasis on taking out big baddies more than anything.

[Zorag]

1 minute ago, ShakeyMac said:

Semantic nitpicking kills the thread.  It should have been obvious he meant "high sortie" levels because there's no one who plays this game who says a thing is "sortie viable" and means "but only for the first sortie."  If someone says something is "sortie viable" they mean for ALL the sortie missions.  So his use of "sortie level" is appropriate.

And once again, semantic nitpicking kills the thread.  Two responses and nothing to address what OP said.

More to the point, I agree OP.  Ever since the concept of "void" damage was implemented into the game I always thought it should be treated like "non-elemental" damage is in Final Fantasy games.  That is to say, it's weaker than it's elemental counterparts when facing something vulnerable to said elements, but on an overall level it's strength comes from having no weaknesses.  It's useful against all things, all the time.  Not for insane levels of damage (usually) but for reliably being able to take something down even if you can't exploit a vulnerability (or have no vulnerabilities to exploit).

Extrapolating that to Warframe, void damage should be something that deals a universal type of damage regardless of resistances or weaknesses.  Sentients should have a weakness to void damage, but it shouldn't be an insane weakness.  Maybe 10-20% more damage, so you're encouraged to use your void stuff for more than just wiping damage immunity, but not encouraged to rely on it solely.  I'm not 100% in agreement with ignoring armor, because that would be just a bit too strong (ok, probably really strong).  I would prefer something more unique to void damage.  Specifically, I'd like to void damage have certain effects based on the type of armor/flesh/shields being attacked.  I.e. using void damage on alloy armor could cause a violent reaction in the armor itself.  This would be represented as small instances of blast damage, sort of like a mini-blast dot, that occurs periodically over the course of a second or two, damaging the enemy and other nearby enemies.  Likewise, flesh could "warp" when hit with void damage, inflicting what amounts to a portion of the void damage as viral to the target.  Stuff like that would be unique, pretty cool if done right, and would give some incentive to utilize void damage without completely overshadowing "normal" damage.

In short, I'd like to see something completely different with void damage, with an emphasis on taking out big baddies more than anything.

Oh, thanks. Right when i started to feel kinda frustrated.

And that's exactly what i was thinking about. I agree, armor ignore would be a bit too much, the idea was to make this type of damage special and unique, but also viable (not even necessarily damage-vise) not just implement is as another type of damage that you can't augment, mix (like elementals) to fit the situation and have so little control over.

[ADirtyMonk]

It needs to be a hell of a lot stronger than that. a few thousand true damage doesnt offset the squishiness of operators. So long as the damage/utility of operators is worse or equal to that of warframes no one is going to willingly use them unless they are forced to, which is what is currently seen.

The Shwaak prism (shotgun) does 3250 damage which is on the high side for prisms. Currently That gets you on average 7 shots per kill against ONE regular lv 50 ancient healer or a lv 50 grineer lancer (which has significantly less HP). Said healer will kill the operator with base 250hp in 2 hooks, lancer in 1 burst. A lv 50 regular heavy which is not an uncommon unit takes 40-50 hits to kill and will kill the operator several times during this. 

Amps need to be true damage, take weapon mods, ignore innate damage resistance/invincibility mechanics, etc to be able to truly work alongside fully kitted out warframes. Void dash and blast need to have even higher base damage if they remain unmoddable as they require the operator to be in the middle of a group of enemies to do damage. Of course this kind of power needs to be offset by steeper operator death penalties and sentient stat rebalancing but that's a different discussion.

Edited October 20, 2017 by ADirtyMonk

[Aekhon]

Not to derail the topic - I don't disagree that operator mechanics could use some improvement - but I think most players are thinking too linearly when using operators.  They think they have to switch and then stay out of their warframe, but this is not the case.  You can use operator mode to do one specific thing and then immediately jump back into your warframe, usually seamlessly.  In that light, there are several things that operators can already do without touching the focus schools that are very useful:

1. Because our frames become invulnerable while we're in operator mode (assuming our frames don't have a power active when we switch), switching to operator mode is a good way to negate heavy DoTs on your warframe like Napalm fire.  Just switch to operator mode and wait out the DoT - its clock will keep ticking, but your warframe won't take further damage from it.  If your operator takes damage, go into void mode.

2. Transference, if used twice in rapid succession, effectively becomes a short range teleport for your warframe, good for getting behind annoying enemies like shield lancers (helpful if you play melee), getting through Eximus explosions, or dodging Bombard missiles.

3. Void Blast can be good for knocking down annoying enemies, opening up an easy melee finisher with your warframe.

4. Void Beam will reset Battalyst and Conculyst damage adaptations.

5. Void Dash can be used to get past security cameras and some security lasers in Spy missions.

These are just a few examples; I'm sure there's more I haven't thought of.

[Lockhart77]

Also you can capture kuva by shooting it with Amp

[Vesperos]

From the current point i still ask myself the question for what else is the operator usefull at it´s current state?

The current uses for Operator are Kuva Missions, in Plains Hunt for Vomvaylsts and Teralyst and last but not least an way to revive others with Void powers (turn invisible an heal them).

Aside from that... i find the Operator quite useless atm. I don´t know yet if the other AMP parts can/will increase the dmg output cus of farming standings is a bit tedious when not doing the Teralyst hunt atm. Like already mentioned the Operator is kinda squishy and can be taken down easily in a few shots what would put him in a role of a "glass cannon" not much sustain but therefore dmg that can overwhelm the enemy + could be an "emergency" action if stuff gets hot.

In terms of the schools... i can´t really talk about it cus i still struggle with farming the Focus points cus of no luck with lenses atm.

[xxswatelitexx]

Ya right now there is very little incentive to use operator combat outside of PoE.