Focus 2.0: Focus Exp = Not Fun

[Mr.Holyroller]

2 minutes ago, allibound said:

You like the meta-stealth method.  I'm happy you enjoy it.  But its the ONLY way to get it a meaningful rate.  You enjoy stealth play which probably means you are good at it.  If someone doesn't like it, they probably won't be good at it, and probably won't care to get good at it so what you do in 15 minutes might take them 2 hours.  Why are you insisting its okay to force the entire population into one very specific style of play every day for over a year? It IS over a year, added up its well over 400 days of daily capping, more if you actually use yoru free time for things that aren't Warframe.

I've already knocked 20 days off just by capturing teralysts. Doing that for a year would easily shave off over 100 days

[allibound]

My feedback is, I won't touch focus until its actually feasible to get in a manner of my choosing.  No other aspect of gameplay is so limiting or as exclusive as meta-farm focus, a method I find to be boring enough that I choose not to advance my focus schools over subjecting myself to a year of daily things I don't want to do. I don't want to chase some arbitrary yellow ball that for whatever reason means I learn faster for 45 seconds. So I don't.  Focus 2.0 is untenable to anyone that doesn't live and breathe warframe.

[Mr.Holyroller]

5 minutes ago, allibound said:

My feedback is, I won't touch focus until its actually feasible to get in a manner of my choosing.  No other aspect of gameplay is so limiting or as exclusive as meta-farm focus, a method I find to be boring enough that I choose not to advance my focus schools over subjecting myself to a year of daily things I don't want to do. I don't want to chase some arbitrary yellow ball that for whatever reason means I learn faster for 45 seconds. So I don't.  Focus 2.0 is untenable to anyone that doesn't live and breathe warframe.

Really? Nothing is so limiting? What about certain riven?

Try doing a "level 30 plus defence with no objective damage, damage, or use of energy restores" or a "15 kills while wall latched with a hobbled key without being detected" with just anything YOU WANT to use. To say, "I should be able to do anything and everything I want however I want" in a game that is about acquiring specific builds for specific tasks is absolutely absurd.  This whole game can be seen as boring. You farm things to get things so you can farm more things.

[Rinteru]

6 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Really? Nothing is so limiting? What about certain riven?

Try doing a "level 30 plus defence with no objective damage, damage, or use of energy restores" or a "15 kills while wall latched with a hobbled key without being detected" with just anything YOU WANT to use. To say, "I should be able to do anything and everything I want however I want" in a game that is about acquiring specific builds for specific tasks is absolutely absurd.  This whole game can be seen as boring. You farm things to get things so you can farm more things.

So i have a qustion, you mentioned you can do equinox on adaro and in 15 mins max out focus. Tell me what im doing wrong since to max out focus it takes me more than an hour with 2 greater lenses or no booster and im not making mistakes while doing a run, nobody wakes up and im trying to get as large groupes of enemies as possible with orb.

Another question. How long do you have to grind to max sth to rank 30? Any item. Like up to 30 mins right? So how bout from now on you could only level those items by petting your kubrow because petting kubrow gives you 10000exp and killing other stuff like killing enemies 0.00001exp. Would you prefer killing enemied whole day or petting kubrow? Is warframe a game of petting kubrow or being as space ninja?(well its abit hyperbolic scenario but you get what i mean right?)  Since DE tries to push operator as a core gameplay mechanic and focus as mastery system,  imo stealth farm is totaly unresonable. And im not telling it should be attainable easier. However it should be attainable less grindier. For example you could have special missions that your skills of using operator an warframe would be tested. You could max out the cap in few mins if you were skilled enough. However since focus is also "mastery" system, like D3 paragon, players should have the ability to max it out by playing game for like hour or maybe 2. If you look closer to Diablo 3, there are still ppl grinding for those paragon levels but most of casual players are treating paragons as nice bonus to playing the game. And yea paragons are still important, they give you pretty big bonuses when maxed out, and you will get few just by playing game everyday. With focus you dont have that, casual player in worse case scenario wont even unlock one full focus ability. Like my friend who is playing day by day for like an hour or 2. He finished TWW 3 weeks ago and he just unlocked first passive skill yesterday. And me as more hardcore player, i farmed few milions of focus since then cuz i had equinox and i wanted to spend time doing it. Its totaly not alright imo.

[DinendalMinyatur]

7 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

That's not how warframe works in any context. If you just did whatever the whole time you'd have no frames and no resources 

Well I just did whatever I want and I'm MR 20 with lots of resources.

But I wonder, how do you cap your focus in 15 mins? I also did Adaro exterminate sleepquinox with 2 greater lenses and affinity booster. At best I can only get 70k and it lasts 20 mins

[SnowCat84]

8 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

That's not how warframe works in any context. If you just did whatever the whole time you'd have no frames and no resources 

Nope. U still gain resources if u just play game, try different mission and so on. Yes, if u do grind runs u get said resources faster, and frame farm not really same as focus farm.

But with focus - if u just do mission u like, sabotage for example, u'll get very little focus point. So right now focus work on basis ether u go farm full-speed, or u can forget about whole focus thing, because it'll take u forever.

[MayssonFairbanks]

@ DE, would you be so kind as to give us an ETA on any future Focus changes? It's been 3 weeks and most of these trees are obviously in dire need of tweaking, however I can't seem to find anything about this topic from official sources? 

I appreciate the efforts to make Convergence Orbs smarter but it doesn't fix the underlying issues; aka most of the focus node are too expensive and/or too underpowered. It would be impossible for me to list it all, but if you read the forums you will get tons of constructive feedback and suggestions. I'm not a designer, but I mean, it doesn't take 3 weeks to spot these relatively obvious flaws, such as this little gem:

↑ Come on now....... This is laughable... First of all I for one cannot hit the stupid daily cap, second of all I'm not going to invest 300.000 to get a measly 8 points increase of Operator run speed. No one in their right minds would willingly waste time on such a crappy node, let's be real.

Anyway how long until we get some changes?

P.S.: awesome game though, I love it, bye bye

Edited November 3, 2017 by MayssonFairbanks

[Aleksi134]

I like how ppl complain about making something obviously better yet they feel the need to complain even though it would benefit that person complaining. <---logic.

[MartianGHunter]

49 minutes ago, aleksi134 said:

I like how ppl complain about making something obviously better yet they feel the need to complain even though it would benefit that person complaining. <---logic.

YOU DESERVE A COOKIE!!!!!!!! 

I just want to see the damn system improved I farmed for 7 days using a method I enjoyed. This is saryn on hydron but it takes me 2hrs to farm because i enjoy it. But after farming I do nothing cause I am at varsity I have assignments and projects to do I can only spare 2hrs in a day anymore that its hindrance to my progress in the rest of the game. I used to run relics everyday and survivals for fun now I doing that puts me back in my other endevours. Why is running Axi relics against high level enemies using a booster and greater lenses only giving 8k focus every run that is absolutely ludicrous.   

[Kooglio]

Its not that farming focus is too much of a problem (i mean it kinda is).. its that I just don't give a crap about any of the focus 2.0 trees or playing squishy human operator at all.. its bad enough I have to use that crap to get kuva... focus trees should be for WARFRAMES and to make those better at end game... Like ash with naramon.. I could live with his ultimate being a 5hour cut scene... when I could crit high and go invisible for longer thanks to a decent focus tree that allowed for improving that warframe.. that sort of thing is nice.. and thats where focus trees should help in making otherwise S#&amp;&#036; weapons or warframes.. with the right focus tree skilling and time investment turn them into waay better options. 

Frankly there needs to be better ways to invest time in improving weapons/warframes you enjoy using and playing with better stats through shoving a focus lens on it and always using it..the focus trees are now even worse for that.. benefiting neither warframe or weapons all that much now.

If it was better you could enjoy using an otherwise crap gun or warframe, but continue to play with it, you can eventually improve it to where its just as good as or better than by default a much better weapon/warframe without that time investment... the way it is now there are definitely combinations of warframes/weapons that might look like S#&amp;&#036; but are stats wise at default just better overall to use, you're forced to play with those combinations because its just easier at high levels and sortis etc. 

Obviously its easier to just strip focus from benefiting warframes/weapons directly, much easier balancing something that doesn't effect those things, and having it instead work on a useless and boring human operator with only slight indirect benefits to warframes like gaining energy from switching to human.. all operator gameplay sucks though...last I checked the game is called warframe, not operator farm

Can't we just eject the human operator and that room he lives in out of the tenno ship..? its one of the silly areas of warframe to be focusing on imo.

 

 

[Orfeusz]

DE will discuss about focus today at devsteam. Confirmed by @[DE]Rebecca, watch her post here: 

 

[Ceryk]

7 hours ago, Rinteru said:

So i have a qustion, you mentioned you can do equinox on adaro and in 15 mins max out focus. Tell me what im doing wrong since to max out focus it takes me more than an hour with 2 greater lenses or no booster and im not making mistakes while doing a run, nobody wakes up and im trying to get as large groupes of enemies as possible with orb.

Another question. How long do you have to grind to max sth to rank 30? Any item. Like up to 30 mins right? So how bout from now on you could only level those items by petting your kubrow because petting kubrow gives you 10000exp and killing other stuff like killing enemies 0.00001exp. Would you prefer killing enemied whole day or petting kubrow? Is warframe a game of petting kubrow or being as space ninja?(well its abit hyperbolic scenario but you get what i mean right?)  Since DE tries to push operator as a core gameplay mechanic and focus as mastery system,  imo stealth farm is totaly unresonable. And im not telling it should be attainable easier. However it should be attainable less grindier. For example you could have special missions that your skills of using operator an warframe would be tested. You could max out the cap in few mins if you were skilled enough. However since focus is also "mastery" system, like D3 paragon, players should have the ability to max it out by playing game for like hour or maybe 2. If you look closer to Diablo 3, there are still ppl grinding for those paragon levels but most of casual players are treating paragons as nice bonus to playing the game. And yea paragons are still important, they give you pretty big bonuses when maxed out, and you will get few just by playing game everyday. With focus you dont have that, casual player in worse case scenario wont even unlock one full focus ability. Like my friend who is playing day by day for like an hour or 2. He finished TWW 3 weeks ago and he just unlocked first passive skill yesterday. And me as more hardcore player, i farmed few milions of focus since then cuz i had equinox and i wanted to spend time doing it. Its totaly not alright imo.

I find it rather telling that he hasn't replied to your questions as to how he managed to do something in an amount of time most people seem to agree is mathematically impossible.

[Ceryk]

1 hour ago, Orfeusz said:

DE will discuss about focus today at devsteam. Confirmed by @[DE]Rebecca, watch her post here: 

 

Glad they are addressing it. Wish I could watch it live. Fairly certain Scott has at least read my thread and Rebb has read yours, so at least we know the concerns we are raising have been heard.

[Mr.Holyroller]

16 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

I find it rather telling that he hasn't replied to your questions as to how he managed to do something in an amount of time most people seem to agree is mathematically impossible.

No, I'm just not on the forums all day. One Adaro run takes me about 6 minuites. It takes me 2 and a half runs to get max focus. I get anywhere from 60-110k focus per run. If you get unlucky, yeah it can take upwards to 30 minutes. But that's still not an hour, 2 hours

Edited November 3, 2017 by Mr.Holyroller

[Mr.Holyroller]

Let me clarify what my intent was with these comments.

I don't think the current system of focus is the final product and since DE is already working hard to deal with the current PoE bugs it's going to take time for them to deal with more non-essential aspect of the game.

If focus becomes way too easy to obain, there won't really be a sense of progression. At least in my opinion, focus feels more like exp and levels than mastery rank.

Also, I agree that the focus farm sucks for new players that have no guidance and focus mixed in with some other things in this game that get so grindy would turn me away.

My issue is that there is, for the time being until focus is changed, a very legitimate and reasonable  solution ESPECIALLY for veterans who already have the frames and mods needed.

Just having a response of "no I don't accept that, that's not how I want to play" is contrary to all the other farming, leveling, and grinding mechanics that we've inherently or overtime accepted as reasonable.

I have a problem with VETERANS asking for a current/immediately solution when there already is one.

Again, I think it really does suck for new players fresh out of 2nd dream or the war within, but its still obtainable.

I'm not just trying to troll or fan flames, but with most forum posts about complaints, you only get other people complaining with you which really doesn't lead to a discussion about what does and doesn't work in a system.

On top of focus, I think the way stealth multiplier is gained and obtained needs to be reworked. It took me a whole month of running Adaro to narrow it down to 6 minute runs while keeping my stealth bonus up the whole time.

I don't think focus is going to just be ignored and left how it is, but when they do improve it, I don't want them  knee-jerk responding to the mass hysteria and turn focus into something that doesn't even feel rewarding like syndicates.

[Orfeusz]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Let me clarify what my intent was with these comments.

I don't think the current system of focus is the final product and since DE is already working hard to deal with the current PoE bugs it's going to take time for them to deal with more non-essential aspect of the game.

If focus becomes way too easy to obain, there won't really be a sense of progression. At least in my opinion, focus feels more like exp and levels than mastery rank.

Also, I agree that the focus farm sucks for new players that have no guidance and focus mixed in with some other things in this game that get so grindy would turn me away.

My issue is that there is, for the time being until focus is changed, a very legitimate and reasonable  solution ESPECIALLY for veterans who already have the frames and mods needed.

Just having a response of "no I don't accept that, that's not how I want to play" is contrary to all the other farming, leveling, and grinding mechanics that we've inherently or overtime accepted as reasonable.

I have a problem with VETERANS asking for a current/immediately solution when there already is one.

Again, I think it really does suck for new players fresh out of 2nd dream or the war within, but its still obtainable.

I'm not just trying to troll or fan flames, but with most forum posts about complaints, you only get other people complaining with you which really doesn't lead to a discussion about what does and doesn't work in a system.

On top of focus, I think the way stealth multiplier is gained and obtained needs to be reworked. It took me a whole month of running Adaro to narrow it down to 6 minute runs while keeping my stealth bonus up the whole time.

I don't think focus is going to just be ignored and left how it is, but when they do improve it, I don't want them  knee-jerk responding to the mass hysteria and turn focus into something that doesn't even feel rewarding like syndicates.

[...] knee-jerk responding to the mass hysteria and turn focus into something that doesn't even feel rewarding like syndicates. - two words.. "MASSIVE CONFUSION" 

Still, it probably will happen xD

[Mr.Holyroller]

1 minute ago, Orfeusz said:

[...] knee-jerk responding to the mass hysteria and turn focus into something that doesn't even feel rewarding like syndicates. - two words.. "MASSIVE CONFUSION" 

Still, it probably will happen xD

Yeah it probably will happen. The direction of this game is currently heavily influenced by new-player experience and I think that's fine. I'm content with working on the new arcanes and maxing out the rest of my primed mods as a veteran. Most content is so easy and quick to clear for anyone who's played for more than a year. With focus I feel like i have a goal to reach towards again like I used to several years ago collecting all the weapons. If they cut the time in half, I'll still love the focus system. And if they make focus easier to obtain without removing the stealth bonus multiplier  it would be even easier.

Maybe they can add like operator only missions that grant large heaps of focus. It would also make it feel like you're operator is getting stronger instead of power being sucked into your weapons/frames. 

I need a Rocky Balboa montage of my operator training to become a pokem- I mean to become a warframe master.

Gotta craft em' all

[Aleksi134]

17 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Let me clarify what my intent was with these comments.

I don't think the current system of focus is the final product and since DE is already working hard to deal with the current PoE bugs it's going to take time for them to deal with more non-essential aspect of the game.

If focus becomes way too easy to obain, there won't really be a sense of progression. At least in my opinion, focus feels more like exp and levels than mastery rank.

Also, I agree that the focus farm sucks for new players that have no guidance and focus mixed in with some other things in this game that get so grindy would turn me away.

My issue is that there is, for the time being until focus is changed, a very legitimate and reasonable  solution ESPECIALLY for veterans who already have the frames and mods needed.

Just having a response of "no I don't accept that, that's not how I want to play" is contrary to all the other farming, leveling, and grinding mechanics that we've inherently or overtime accepted as reasonable.

I have a problem with VETERANS asking for a current/immediately solution when there already is one.

Again, I think it really does suck for new players fresh out of 2nd dream or the war within, but its still obtainable.

I'm not just trying to troll or fan flames, but with most forum posts about complaints, you only get other people complaining with you which really doesn't lead to a discussion about what does and doesn't work in a system.

On top of focus, I think the way stealth multiplier is gained and obtained needs to be reworked. It took me a whole month of running Adaro to narrow it down to 6 minute runs while keeping my stealth bonus up the whole time.

I don't think focus is going to just be ignored and left how it is, but when they do improve it, I don't want them  knee-jerk responding to the mass hysteria and turn focus into something that doesn't even feel rewarding like syndicates.

I dont particularily find it rewarding if i have to spend 2 hours from my already busy days grinding adaro which is tedious as hell and it gets boring already after the first day of grinding. Then if i want to even max out my current tree i have to do this repeatedly every day with the same setup and no way otherwise to gain focus than this way. Yea great stuff right there working as intended, you can only use one specific setup to gain focus in one specific mission and usually its only doable before i go insane with boosters...

[SnowCat84]

4 hours ago, MayssonFairbanks said:

@ DE, would you be so kind as to give us an ETA on any future Focus changes? It's been 3 weeks and most of these trees are obviously in dire need of tweaking, however I can't seem to find anything about this topic from official sources?

He's still working on it, don't rush him!

[Mr.Holyroller]

3 minutes ago, aleksi134 said:

I dont particularily find it rewarding if i have to spend 2 hours from my already busy days grinding adaro which is tedious as hell and it gets boring already after the first day of grinding. Then if i want to even max out my current tree i have to do this repeatedly every day with the same setup and no way otherwise to gain focus than this way. Yea great stuff right there working as intended, you can only use one specific setup to gain focus in one specific mission and usually its only doable before i go insane with boosters...

Even without a booster or forma on ivara/equinox it should only take an hour at max if you're unlucky with spawns. 

[Mr.Holyroller]

5 minutes ago, SnowCat84 said:

He's still working on it, don't rush him!

Lol. Yeah, focus cap + convergence has really crippled us. It's kinda been an endless cycle of DE cutting us down at the knees whenever we get really good at farming something

[DiabolusUrsus]

15 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Let me clarify what my intent was with these comments.

I don't think the current system of focus is the final product and since DE is already working hard to deal with the current PoE bugs it's going to take time for them to deal with more non-essential aspect of the game.

If focus becomes way too easy to obain, there won't really be a sense of progression. At least in my opinion, focus feels more like exp and levels than mastery rank.

Also, I agree that the focus farm sucks for new players that have no guidance and focus mixed in with some other things in this game that get so grindy would turn me away.

My issue is that there is, for the time being until focus is changed, a very legitimate and reasonable  solution ESPECIALLY for veterans who already have the frames and mods needed.

Just having a response of "no I don't accept that, that's not how I want to play" is contrary to all the other farming, leveling, and grinding mechanics that we've inherently or overtime accepted as reasonable.

I have a problem with VETERANS asking for a current/immediately solution when there already is one.

Again, I think it really does suck for new players fresh out of 2nd dream or the war within, but its still obtainable.

I'm not just trying to troll or fan flames, but with most forum posts about complaints, you only get other people complaining with you which really doesn't lead to a discussion about what does and doesn't work in a system.

On top of focus, I think the way stealth multiplier is gained and obtained needs to be reworked. It took me a whole month of running Adaro to narrow it down to 6 minute runs while keeping my stealth bonus up the whole time.

I don't think focus is going to just be ignored and left how it is, but when they do improve it, I don't want them  knee-jerk responding to the mass hysteria and turn focus into something that doesn't even feel rewarding like syndicates.

You're correct about stealth affinity, but the rest of your premise is flawed.

The devs are looking at the existing "solution" you are presenting as undesired.

Read between the lines in Scott's tweets on the issue: can't be mad at players for using the tools we give them.

That means his initial reaction would be one of anger, but he doesn't feel that would be justified. In responses to comments on that tweet, he states that he wants to make more strategies viable without nerfing the existing ones.

The problem is, that simply isn't possible.

As long as Focus is a chore to be completed, players will always gravitate to the most efficient method of farming. Any changes to improve normal focus gains will also benefit stealth farming to a greater degree because of the multipliers.

To successfully fix the problem, they need to smash Focus multipliers with a hammer, adjust gain rates accordingly, and redistribute costs to make Focus rewarding without power-grinding to make decent progress.

Point being, players aren't simply refusing to accept the "official" solution. DE themselves are dissatisfied with stealth-farming, so change is inevitable.

The problem at hand and the point of this discussion is that DE is unlikely to reach a satisfactory solution with their current train of thought regarding the issue of Focus acquisition.

They are looking at it as "how can we stop players from power-grinding," when it ought to be "why are players power-grinding?"

[Mr.Holyroller]

4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You're correct about stealth affinity, but the rest of your premise is flawed.

The devs are looking at the existing "solution" you are presenting as undesired.

Read between the lines in Scott's tweets on the issue: can't be mad at players for using the tools we give them.

That means his initial reaction would be one of anger, but he doesn't feel that would be justified. In responses to comments on that tweet, he states that he wants to make more strategies viable without nerfing the existing ones.

The problem is, that simply isn't possible.

As long as Focus is a chore to be completed, players will always gravitate to the most efficient method of farming. Any changes to improve normal focus gains will also benefit stealth farming to a greater degree because of the multipliers.

To successfully fix the problem, they need to smash Focus multipliers with a hammer, adjust gain rates accordingly, and redistribute costs to make Focus rewarding without power-grinding to make decent progress.

Point being, players aren't simply refusing to accept the "official" solution. DE themselves are dissatisfied with stealth-farming, so change is inevitable.

The problem at hand and the point of this discussion is that DE is unlikely to reach a satisfactory solution with their current train of thought regarding the issue of Focus acquisition.

They are looking at it as "how can we stop players from power-grinding," when it ought to be "why are players power-grinding?"

Agreed

[SnowCat84]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Lol. Yeah, focus cap + convergence has really crippled us. It's kinda been an endless cycle of DE cutting us down at the knees whenever we get really good at farming something

Worst part - they don't give us any other alternatives, players just have to find new ways to abuse gameplay mechanics.

At least Draco was fun all-out-shoot-out :(

[Mr.Holyroller]

3 minutes ago, SnowCat84 said:

Worst part - they don't give us any other alternatives, players just have to find new ways to abuse gameplay mechanics.

At least Draco was fun all-out-shoot-out :(

I still mourn for Draco