Nightmare Mode Is Punishing... Not Difficult

[CrazzyAzn]

For those who don't want to read: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toVNkuCELpU

 

I'm assuming, here, that the Nightmare Mode was intended to challenge players in order to give them rewards--higher risk, so bigger rewards. It was also meant to be a test of skill to challenge the player's ability to utilize their own skills against a range of different types of hindrances (No mini-map, HP drain, no shields, timer, vampire, and energy drain).

 

The intent behind the Nightmare Mode is great, and truly adds more to the game itself; but the execution of the it wasn't done well in my opinion. There isn't too huge of an issue with this because the Nightmare Modes only appear on very few nodes.

 

As an avid gamer, I like to challenge myself, and play difficult levels/games as any other thrill-seeker; but I also know the difference between when something is difficult, and when something is just plain punishing.

 

Here, the Nightmare Mode is just punishing. Not even difficult.

 

As some other have complained, the issue with the combined challenges adds great dysfunction to the game's mechanics:

 

For example, when you join a Nightmare mode and receive No Mini-Map and Timer there is little hope for your success as the maps are randomly generated every time, and you spend the entire span of the Timer just finding the objective/exit. Those who don't experience this issue are lucky enough to get a small map generation, or just plain lucky.

Another example is the HP Drain and No Shields. Lots of players would agree that this makes it difficult when, in-fact, it just adds a lot of tedium (so does the No Mini-Map stand-alone in general). You will spend most of the time crouched behind cover, and when you has seemingly coordinated your attack plan a hidden shield lancer knocks you from behind, and you are overwhelmed by machine-gun fire and basically die. The point is that no matter how much you plan something it will go awry. This is multiplied tenfold when you are pressured to make a move as you are being HP Drained with no protective shields.

And personally, I find the No Mini-Map to be just plain annoying. For obvious reasons.

 

These failures, and deaths mentioned in the examples, aren't a hiccup of the player's skill or choice. It is in, all honesty, the developer's fault for setting forth a mind-numbing obstacle (all great developers always makes mistakes don't worry DE!)

 

On a brighter note, other combinations such as Vampire and No Shields work great, Low Gravity isn't much of an issue, and No Shields w/ Energy Drain is fair too.

 

I have no problem with the Nightmare Modes being random, but maybe making it random AND lasting the entirety of a day is too much. Time is precious my friends. There could be an option to opt-out of the nightmare mission, and do the regular mission. Of course, by doing so you forfeit the rewards that entail with the Nightmare Mode option.

Or they simply could work like alert missions that have a set timer.

 

When it comes down to it, the Nightmare Mode needs a little more tweaking to make the experience fun, and accompanying to very skilled players while not making it time-consuming and unfair to those who choose to participate in it.

 

[PsychedelicSnake]

I personally feel challenged, not punished.

[123Olympian]

I personally feel challenged, not punished.

Same.

 

Also note people just want it so hard then to a point they want it easy again. Then come the people who say "oh I like the old days of warframe lol people think I know what I am talking about because I played for a long time". 

 

I honesty don't care for some of the community as some are just trolls hidden by screaming nerf and buff just so they can make a flame war on the forums.

 

Nightmare mode is fine. If it would need anything, it would need more modes than timing and hp drop.

[Mishotaki]

personally, i just finished a mission on nightmare more where i felt more punished than challenged:

infestation, destroy the 4 drills into extermination

not that hard by itself.... BUT

no minimap and energy drain

 

the whole thing went from: "ok it's going to be a pain to find those 4 drills, but it's not that hard"

to: "F*** YOU! i could slam the ground everywhere with my mana and find out those hidden monsters, but i got no mana... and i don't know where they are because there is no mini map!!!!"

 

seriously, this was a troll mission made to make people quit the game...

 

some modes are totally fine to give a risk--> reward thing, but some combinations are totally troll and should be taken out of the pool on certain mission types or can't be combined together.

[Winterbraid]

Haven't run into that No Map mode you're talking about, but when I do, I'll just quit the mission. I often have trouble finding my way around even WITH the minimap.

 

Grineer (and ranged enemies in general) with their aimbot are generally a pain in the butt, Nightmare or not, and the main reason everyone and their grandma is farming Infested. Something should be done about ranged mobs being able to shoot you from any distance, under any lighting conditions, regardless of your movement speed.

 

As a Saryn with Steel Fiber, Vampire mode feels pretty much like godmode. 

 

Overall, I'd describe Nightmare mode as funny rather than difficult, challenging or punishing. It throws some much-needed variety into the game and gives a reason to run normal missions, but it's not how I imagined the "hard" mode of Warframe. That said, with the current mechanics, there is only so much the devs can do to add "difficulty" without either nerfing our frames or bumping up enemy levels (which has stopped counting as a challenge somewhere around Endless Defense wave 100).

Edited July 27, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Keltik0ne]

It's like the ice missions, theres no incentive to run them so I just abort.

 

No minimap is exactly the same.

[N4G4M4K1]

I agree completely. One little instance; I am confronted with a heavy grineer ballista unit after opening a door. (I had little to NO reaction time to think about what I was going to do.) It goes without saying, that on nightmare mode you're not going to last more than maybe 2 seconds of sustained fire from one of those. I went down and immediately popped a revive, and guess what happens? She guns me down AGAIN. IMMEDIATELY.

 

How was I supposed to approach that situation? Why am I punished for reviving, which is a tool that we players are given specifically FOR tackling that idea of an "Ah-ha!" moment. This game needs a LOAD of tweaks, and invulnerability time on a revive is just one of them.

[LasersGoPewPew]

remove the combination sets from nightmare, personally i'm fine with no shields, but no energy to do any useful combat abilities on top of no shields is when you might as well afk in a corner or on a high box(for infested missions) and wait until people finish and get to extraction. either or, not BOTH.

[Archistopheles]

They didn't call it Hard mode, they didn't call it Expert mode, they called it Nightmare mode.

 

Now, are they collecting data based on what we like and dont like? Yes

 

Will they change what nightmare is based on our feedback? Yes

 

Do you think the devs are so dumb that they don't even grasp the concept of punishing vs challenging? No, and if you do, you're the dumb one

 

Should it be optional? Yes

[Althix]

i love new nightmare mode. it is so awesome.

but however, it should be optional.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Althix

[Rhorge]

That's like saying Dark Souls is the easiest game in the world because it's just punishing and if you do everything right you can't die. Punishing = difficult, I don't know how you managed to completely separate those terms in your head.

[RealityMachina]

Punishing = difficult,

Uh, no.

[homiedudemanguy]

I dont want nightmare mode to be tweaked and weakened again. theres a reason for why its called nightmare mode

Edited July 27, 2013 by homiedudemanguy

[Vipus]

That's like saying Dark Souls is the easiest game in the world because it's just punishing and if you do everything right you can't die. Punishing = difficult, I don't know how you managed to completely separate those terms in your head.

I think you're mistaking it with Battle Toads, champ. 

Dark souls is a difficult game, but is also fair. If you died it was because you did something wrong. Nightmare mode in Warframe is simply cheap. 

 

"Oh, You want to do Nightmare missions using Power Reliant WFs like Loki, Volt or Ash and got Energy Drain and No Shields? Sucks to be you! And you don't want to be a quitter and abort the mission to try for different modifiers? Well, I guess wasting all your revives for the day in less than 15 minutes will change your mind."

 

I know Warframe will never be as balanced as other competitive F2P games out there, but the way Nightmare mode is right now is simply ridiculous.

[DB-Tenno]

No minimap on a randomized tile set where it is very likely to run into duplicate tiles? There's a line between tedium and difficulty, and no minimap is just plain tedious. Dark Souls at least has maps you can look up and memorize.

I've been farming for days and nights on end and not a single Blaze, then this happens? As it is right now, Blaze is all but impossible to get. I just came out of a Nightmare defense where I had to revive almost all the time because we had no shields and no minimap, and I was one of two Rhinos on the team, the other two being Lokis. Guess what I got for it? Wildfire. What little luck I had was spent on the fact that none of the enemies glitched into a wall, which happened way too often in my defense missions.

So if an enemy glitches into a wall during a No Minimap Defense mission, well, you're done.

Edited July 27, 2013 by DB-Tenno

[Rand0mNumbers]

I'm glad they've added new challenges to nightmare (it was too easy before), but it's just increased risk. Granted, since the new additions, I have failed every single nightmare mission, so maybe, just maybe, there's some new bonus I haven't seen. However, the wiki hasn't changed and posts I've read haven't indicated new rewards, so I'm assuming there are none.

 

Maybe that was the point. The devs thought it was too rewarding to give a single double-stat mod and deemed it necessary to increase the risk for them. To me, the mods don't seem worth it and the really rare ones were too difficult to obtain before the new challenges.

 

I thought I could slow or even reverse the energy drain effect with maxed energy siphon, but nothing happened. If anything, I think it increased the drain effect. That, coupled with no shields and vampire on a defense mission meant anyone who got shot was dead. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you got shot, you died. Okay, fine. At the start, it was two shots, but still. (On Despina)

 

Taking away abilities and defense is too much for me. When on Nightmare, there's no point in playing a low armor frame because things hit too hard and there's too high a chance of not being able to use what makes it shine (abilities).

 

I think it is time I tried an all Rhino party. Trinity would be great, but the game is too chaotic to make coordination for Energy Vampire work (things die too quickly anyways). Well, an all Trinity party could work too. Everyone will take care of their own energy with the occasional Blessing invulerability.

 

That said, I could get used to it, but am not really inclined to. I like keeping my frames built for general purpose. Nightmare mode heavily advocates specialization. If there were presets, I wouldn't mind, but there aren't and switching/finding mods takes way too long.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Rand0mNumbers

[Bklink]

I think removing the minimap was a fail.

 

Running around looking for that damn exit while getting swarmed is just frustration.

[NalkorRN]

That's like saying Dark Souls is the easiest game in the world because it's just punishing and if you do everything right you can't die. Punishing = difficult, I don't know how you managed to completely separate those terms in your head.

Did you even watch the video? Dark Souls is not a punishing game, at all. I mean, it'll punish the player who's all "YOLO!" when in Sen's Funhouse, but that's just them being stupid and not realizing they're meant to take it slowly. Every single time I died in Dark Souls (barring Invading in the Forest), I knew what killed me and what I could have done otherwise. Enemy placement is static, enemy patterns are unique to each type, but easy to memorize. The bosses are a true challenge, not the bullet sponges that infest Warframe. Aside from them always mid-rolling or fat-rolling, invading NPCs followed the exact same rules that the player did. They had poise that could be broken, bleed/poison/toxic bars you could fill, etc.

There are videos out there of people beating The Four Kings, the hardest boss in the entire game aside from the DLC bosses, as a Soul Level 1 Pyromancer on NG++++++ without dying at all during the fight.

You however, are probably someone who would struggle and die against Pinwheel and call it a punishing fight.

[Naugus]

I don't feel challenged nor punished. I do, however, feel like the prettiest boy in prison whenever i play nightmare mode as of late.

[Phobose]

I personally liked the old Nightmare mode, It wasn't too hard but you had to make an effort to complete it. I'm not enjoying these new additions one bit since I play Loki. basically think of it like this. Loki with no Shields is just lol hp? whats that? Loki with No Energy I might as well just stand there and do nothing and let them kill me. It basically just kills off any of the more squishy and Ability reliant Warframes like Loki from my perspective. I just feel the no Shields and Energy drain are a bit too much.

 

Ill give my own opinion on a good definition Nightmare Mode for Warframe

 

-Timer

-Vampire drain

-No Mini Map

-Lower ammunition drops

-Lower Health drops from containers.

-Enemies are tankier

-Guarenteed Stalker that wont drop any items (to farmproof of his items)

-Guarenteed Assassination mission of that factions boss list. (excluding defense missions that would be too op to defend the objective, unless their damage doesn't affect the objective.)

-More Heavier units (ex. Grineer heavy machine guns, Corpus techs, Ancients etc etc.)

Edited July 28, 2013 by ThatShadyGuy

[Scifi99]

i enjoy the current nigthmare mode, i feel its not punishing tbh, if they ever reduce the dificulty, then they must add a harder mode to cope with the change.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Scifi99

[PaperAlien]

While I haven't played since the new "mutators" were added, I just know that I will be quitting any No-Map games.

[Callback]

It is too punishing, but not the bonus challenges.  The problem is the INSANE damage ramp up.  There's no fun to be had when you die in 1 single shot to a lv30 nightmare runner.  What the hell are you supposed to do in a lv60+ scenario?  The other problem is that NOBODY RUNS nightmare.  It makes sense to die quickly when hit if you have a coordinated group to cover each other, but 99% of the time I am forced to solo.  Warframe has insanely accurate enemies, which makes normal missions a task of bullet sponging for quick kills then retreating to recover shields.  It  makes the task of increasing enemy damage more tedious than anything, since you are guaranteed to take some hits.  The fewer players there are the more easily you are flanked and have no chance to ever recover shields.  Solo and duo difficulty need some adjustments.

 

The other issue with nightmare is you cannot see the challenges before entering.  These challenges would be very fun to run if you knew what was coming.  No shields?  remove redirection for vitality.  No primary? Equip my best pistol.  No minimap?  Enemy or loot radar could function on a blank background to give some semblance of navigation.  Being able to requip for the specific mission would add a lot more fun to nightmare.

 

Not just for nightmare but for the game in general, I would suggest increasing enemy bullet damage, but severely decreasing their accuracy to more of a spray and pray mechanic.  This would increase their damage output greatly against groups overall, but reduce the damage to a single player, especially when solo.  It would give more value to finding cover and popping out to fire, since enemies would not instantly nail you the second you poke out.

 

Please change the damage amplification to reflect the number of players in game, and not always do 1000+ damage PER HIT on freaking lv30enemies.  Again, in a group you have people to cover you so you don't GET shot and to revive people who are downed.  Solo you have NONE of that, and just get f*cked.  With no groups running and no way to solo, there's no way to get the mods.  Please rework solo difficulty.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Callback

[jrkong]

I find Nightmare Mode is getting a bit too ridiculous and practically out of reach for those who haven't put hundreds of hours into Warframe. If you don't have the money for a potato or the tenacity (or capability) to wait for an alert you're pretty much barred out. Not to mention mods are rather ridiculous considering they increase in cost to upgrade based on an exponential curve it just seems a little unfair. Perhaps it's the 1.01% drop rate on some of the mods behind a bar that's getting more and more ridiculous that's ticking me off... Oh well I guess I'll just put on my maxed potato'd gear and life will be good again while the noobs suffer.

[Callback]

Additional thoughts:  No minimap should still have objective markers on the HUD: those blue circles.

 

Power drain could be replaced with double power cost or something similar

 

Instead of 0 shield, make it shield does not regenerate, but restores on power pickups.

 

1hp mode (since it feels that way anyway) as an alternative for no shield

 

Faster enemies, enemy health regen, 0 damage from headshot, random weapon switch, etc. to dilute the pool

 

Change once per hour, but make it the same for every player, every time.  Show the specifics before entering.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Callback