Remaking the Infest : Think tank session

[neKroMancer]

As we all know, the Infest rely on stunlock to create a threat and artificial difficulty against players. While many experienced players can effectively deal with them, they're probably the most boring faction to fight against since all infest can be easily kill by kiting and climbing somewhere high and safe. The fact that thry have no other way to deal with players other than getting close and melee/stun means they need some serious changes.

This topic is about how players would like the Infest to become. What mechanic do you want to see instead of stunlock? What ability you think it'll be challenging to fight against?

This is my opinion.

1. Charger is a good unit. Fast, agile, cannon fodder which relies on stagger to stop the target and make them open to other kind of attacks. However, the current stat seems rather off for a cannon fodder. It's an ultralisk in zergling disguise. One claw swipe can take out a hundred shield - that's quite powerful for unit that showed up in hoard.

The Chargers should have less durability and deal less damage. Buff movement speed to compensate and keep the stun capability since they need it.

2. Leaper. They serve no purpose since the charger already have a better role. They're slower, make an obvious animation before leaping on player and can be killed with melee midair (quite fun, really). They need pretty big change to be viable.

I want the leaper to change into some sort of range attacker. Taking advantage of player's attention to the approaching chargers and shoot spike similar to Bolto's at player. Perhaps with some of them hiding on the ceiling and shoot spikes from multiple directions at clueless Tenno wander into their domain.

3.The Runner. Kamikaze sprinter. They are quite nice already. Spawn less and make their detonation send players flying. However, a new model change would be nice. Something more bomb-like.

4.Crawlers. I never, ever see any player got caught by nauseous crawler's vomit. They're just minor damage sponges. Perhaps change it into a second range unit capable of spitting gooey fluid to slow player down.

5.Healing ancient is an absolute JOKE since they have no role in a fast pace combat. Most of the time there's nothing left to heal. They need pretty drastic change to make sure players take them seriously.

Since it seems to be a supporting ancient then it should be able to drive nearby infest into a bloodlust, boost damage and movement speed for a short time, and grant it's minion carapace armor to protect against damage. The ancient itself should be weaker than other ancient due to the support nature.

6.Disruptor ancient. Cool concept, taking player's shield and energy in a single swing means they're defenseless and unable to cast anything to get out of sticky situation. This guy definitely needs to be in the front line. However, when it got slashed, It got unending stagger makes it quite easy to deal with 1-1. Perhaps some sort of stagger cooldown should be added for this guy.

The melee attack should either drain shield or energy, not both. Perhaps it should drain player's energy to charge itself and release an AOE lightining attack. Drain shield, similar to toxic's effect on health, with aura. However, first melee attack shouldn't stagger but the AOE lightining attack and charged state attack should stagger and decrease movement speed of affected player.

7.Toxic ancient. Definitely need range attack since no sane player will get close and fight this guy. Throwing a toxic fluid similar to Golem's would be nice.

OK, that's probably what I could think of atm. Feel free to comment, Tenno.

Edited February 4, 2013 by neKroMancer

[TheRealTuna]

To address each suggestion specifically:

1. Chargers: I agree with you here. I'd like to see chargers be a little less tanky and do slightly less damage, while getting a speed buff.

2. Leapers: Leapers are one of few infested units currently that can deal with players just jumping on boxes and raining down hell from above for free. I like the concept of the leaper, but, as you say, the "leaping" animation is much too lengthy and choreographed to really ever be hit by them. I'd like for the "leaping" animation to be less choreographed and sped up. Otherwise, I like the concept of this unit as is.

3. Kamikaze Runner: Agree, I like this unit as is, although many of them at once can get really irritating. Still, they pose a significant threat in numbers and are useless on their own, which is a fair balance imo.

4. Crawlers: These things are completely useless. Maybe make them spew poison in an area that deals damage as players pass over it, or give them a massive movement and cast animation speed buff to that they can do something effective.

5. Healing Ancients: Pretty lackluster mob all in all, as you say. Given the low health pools of infested to begin with, there is nothing for this mob to actually heal. They don't do particularly good damage and are not threatening in the same way that the other ancients are. I might suggest these guys to be changed into something like the shamans of Diablo 2 that can revive dead infested (revived infested wouldn't give exp). Of course the rate of revival would have to be fine tuned so as to not make this mob unreasonably strong. This would give the player incentive to strike these guys down first in a fight as opposed to pretty much ignoring them because they do nothing.

6. Disruptor Ancient: Holy hell do I hate these guys. These guys paired with other infestated can really mess your day up...which is a good thing. This game should be difficult; disruptor ancients do just that. I don't feel that these guys need to be altered really.

7. Toxic Ancient: Making an error around a group of these will cost you. Similarly to Disruptor Ancients, these guys can really screw you over, and, along with disruptors, make a player think twice about stacking purely shied and shield regen mods. I like this mob how it is as well.

Regarding your suggestions to make some infested have range attacks: I feel like that would defeat the purpose of infested. Grineer and Corpus already have the range...it seems that infested were designed for the sole purpose of rushing down. Adding range to them would nullify that purpose.

[neKroMancer]

IMO, giving the Infest a few range units expand their threat and decrease usage of stunlock mechanic. I think that the range attack if infest should serve different purpose compared to Corpus and Grineer direct damage. Decrease mobility, decrease melee attack speed, DOT, disorienting, sucking out stamina which make players vulnerable to melee attack and stun if they're not careful.

[Ced23Ric]

Oh hai!

1. Chargers: These guys need to have their HP reduced, their damage reduced and their speed increased. They also need higher mobility, including jumping gaps and running over each other.
   
2. Leapers: These guys could be cool if they wouldn't go for a jog, praise the sungod Ra and then jump in your general direction. If the model would be changed to have thicker legs, they could jump the entire time, from platforms to walls, hunting down players by coming in from odd angles. Their AI should have a "flanking" routine, so that they fan out and come from the sides, too.
   
3. Runners: The burst radius needs to go down and the burst shouldn't stagger, it should send you flying, away from the burst. This fall needs to be counterable with a roll, so instead of struggling up, one gently rolls back to one's feet.
   
4. Crawlers: These guys shouldn't exist in the wild, only as a consequence of gunfire/melee. They are laughable, slow and delay Exterminate/Defense mission. Unfun to find, uninteresting to fight.
   
5. Ancients:
   
   • Toxic: The staggering is annoying, rather give them short range poison darts. Would love to see their cloud linger on a bit longer, following them like a trace.
     
   • Disruptor: These guys need to be brought in line a little bit - nullifying 700 shields and 300 energy in one hit is too strong. Give them set damages. As long as target has shields, energy remains save. Counter the powerloss with higher base speed and longer range on the tentacles.
     
   • Healers: Are pointless other than being bullet sponges right now. I highly suggest giving them limited revive abilities, or have them boost units - raise a hand, point at a Charger, aslong as Charger is buffed, +50% damage, +25% attack speed. Make them buffbots, so their relevance is the amplification of others.
     

[*]New Units:

• Lurkers: Crawl the ceiling, mean and lean, jump from up high, retreat after a few attacks and jump back down from walls etc.
  
• Spores: Flying spores that explode on impact, slow but powerful. Think flying bombs.
  
• Spore Beasts: lumbering monstrosities on all fours that spit out spores and are generally ugly.
  
• Spike Fiends: Former humanoids covered in spikes, which they can fire at short range. Deal damage when struck with melee strikes, breaking up mindless "E" mashing.
  

My US$ .02 on the topic.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Blatantfool]

1. Chargers - In agreement with Ced23Ric. He said what I was gonna say before I thought about it, or something to that degree.

2. Leapers - I'm on a similar page as Ced here too. The idea of an almost cricket-like beast leaping about is just neat.

3. Runners - Need to come in multiple types. Normal ones look like they do now. Then have a glowing red, green and blue version. Red deals damage with a large splash but no knockback as a fire attack. Green slows your movement and deals some DoT damage for a Toxic attack. Blue deals no stagger and reduced health damage but nukes shields. These enemies should also be set up to turn into Crawlers often if not hit rather hard. They also need a proper 'arm' time. Having them explode simply because they were shot to death can make them a pain. It is weird because it only happens sometime. There has to be a point where the game definitely shows you 'He is ready to pop' so that you can decide the appropriate way to handle him as he runs for you.

4. Crawler - These should be the sleeping dragon of the line up in my opinion. Naturally occuring ones should be changed to have a different flavor then the ones you actually cause yourself. An actual crawler should remain the pathetic, slow little critter until it takes damage. Then BOOM. Rage mode. It'll quickly mutate into a spidery, fast attacking critter like something right out of the movie 'The Thing'. Misfires could give you another nasty problem to death with in the middle of a hoard of enemies. The trick? Taking them out in a single shot or burning them. Fire infused attacks prevent the mutation.

5. I've no particular opinion on Ancients for now. I'll leave this to someone else until I've given it a real thought. I'd like them to eventually LOOK really awesome.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Blatantfool

[TinFoilMkIV]

Agreed with Ced23Ric and Blatantfool, some new types of infested will go a long way towards making this faction actually interesting to fight.

As for stunlocking, I think the overall mechanics of stun could use a change, for one we could use at least one more degree of stun, as in a light stun. Similar to current stun but which the character recovers much faster, just enough to interrupt some melee attacks or stop movement to get hit by something worse, but not completely lock the character permanently. It seems a bit off to me when getting hit by some huge dangerous looking enemy, or an explosion, has roughly the same effect as some crippled crawler slapping you in the shin.

Secondly the stunning priority and animation queues need to change, for both players and enemies. For one, getting clipped mid air by a charger should not cause you suddenly stand up midd air and stagger as you float back to the ground. Getting hit by a stagger mid air, or mid dodge, should knock you down, although possibly a shorter knockdown than the full grade one. Getting hit by a stagger mid stagger, should have no effect, no more of this laying on the ground, slowly getting up then going into a heavy stagger animation just because you got hit while down nonsense. Staggers on players and enemies should really not have an effect unless they are currently not in another form of stagger, unless of course its a higher degree, such as getting knocked down while being staggered.

Finally I think we need some sort of temporary stagger protection between animations, and possibly have it granted on certain moves such as dodge rolls. If we had some sort of brief window of protection from staggers in between it would be much more manageable and give the player a chance to actually fight back against a horde of stunlocking enemies. I would also propose that the protection time be proportional to the degree of stagger/stun just recovered from.

Right now the problem with stun/stagggers is the fact that they can infinitely chain with literally zero downtime between thanks to a combination of queued stagger animations and no real protection or way to avoid them when in range.

Also the seemingly incomplete state of the new chargers contributes greatly to these issues in my opinion, as they have no special death animations(including getting hacked apart by melee weapons), no stagger or interrupted animations of their own, and seemingly act as moving walls with a stun attack.

[Mak_Gohae]

Fighting against the Infested is like maneuvering through a maze, this is why they have all these crazy units that are fast, slow, and in between. A crawler is useless if he is just there alone but in battles they play a role even if it's very little.

I wouldnt suggest adding any sort of range because their style consist of all melee and movement, there is no point in battle where they are stationary which would give said unit a chance to hit.

The damage of the dogs does need to be toned down cause they really take you down fast.

What really need to be worked on is their spawing cause you get some crazy spawns that are too much.

[Blatantfool]

Fighting against the Infested is like maneuvering through a maze, this is why they have all these crazy units that are fast, slow, and in between. A crawler is useless if he is just there alone but in battles they play a role even if it's very little.

I wouldnt suggest adding any sort of range because their style consist of all melee and movement, there is no point in battle where they are stationary which would give said unit a chance to hit.

The damage of the dogs does need to be toned down cause they really take you down fast.

What really need to be worked on is their spawing cause you get some crazy spawns that are too much.

I almost never get the feeling of a 'maze'. I play Ember, mind you, really all infested levels are for me is picking a decent position and setting up a big flaming trap to lead the horde of AI through.

[Fenrisulfr]

+1, I like the ideas stated here.

[Sealgaire]

Healers: Are pointless other than being bullet sponges right now. I highly suggest giving them limited revive abilities, or have them boost units - raise a hand, point at a Charger, aslong as Charger is buffed, +50% damage, +25% attack speed. Make them buffbots, so their relevance is the amplification of others.

See, it's unique mechanics like this that would add difficulty to the infested while keeping them interesting to fight. If healers could revive fallen infested, they would become a priority target like shield ospreys.

Just want to restate that I think anyone who wants chargers to lose stun, HP, and damage is going a little too far, and that I hope the devs nerf them more more incrementally until people can deal with them. Does noone remember when infested were the trash faction?

[Ced23Ric]

Just want to restate that I think anyone who wants chargers to lose stun, HP, and damage is going a little too far, and that I hope the devs nerf them more more incrementally until people can deal with them. Does noone remember when infested were the trash faction?

I'd like to see them balanced. Faster, jumpy, but a little less spongey, and the damage toned down.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Fenrisulfr]

I'd like to see them balanced. Faster, jumpy, but a little less spongey, and the damage toned down.

Was just thinking about that same thing. That would make them perfect.

[UkyoSonoda]

I like Ced's suggestions for the most part though I'd do a couple other things.

On chargers I'd give them a resistance to bullet damage on top of the changes he proposed. The reason being it now makes the player choose. Do I continue running and trying to shoot them using up ammo I might need for something else later, or get in there and use melee attacks that are far more effective while putting myself at greater risk of damage?

Runners. I think I'd have these guys set eachother off if they get caught in the explosion. This would elminate the konga line esque explosion in your face chain and instead possibly make things interesting due to potential chain reactions.

Toxic Ancients. These I think I'd have behaive more like the golem boss minus the pull skill. The reason is that by constantly having the poison cloud active makes them incredibly easy to spot. Having them trigger the cloud in lingering bursts that arent attached to the ancient itself when a player gets close to them I think would actually make them more dangerous because you're less likely to notice them without the constant green glow. However I'd also give them that poison throwing attack the golem does as well to make kiting and shooting them a bit more difficult. And probably have them explode in a poison cloud on death like the poison crawlers.

New enemy ideas?

Webber: These units launch webs at range that cover small areas and persist for a few seconds before disappearing. The webs don't do any damage however they slow players that are either hit by them or move through the area they occupy. They're also able to do a single target web that if it connects will pull the player to the webber with no other effects.

Wisp: Small floating enemy with no direct attacks. However emits pulses that block skill usage and disrupt gun aim.

Beast: Large rampaging physical monster. Extremely durable, high damage with a powerful charging attack. Normal physical attacks can strike multiple targets and launch players. Elite spawn.

Armadillo: Large enemy with strong shielding plates on it's body. Practially immune to bullets. Constantly has a sizable field around it that works like bullet attractor pulling gun fire into itself. Field pulls bullets into the plates negating damage. Meleeing the areas not covered by plates results in a large amount of damage. Only close range defense is a slow stomp similar to a shockwave moa to attempt at pushing players away from it's vulnerable area. Elite Spawn

Basically I'd like them to have more tools to get players into their threat bubbles rather than giving all of them a stun/stagger that makes it difficult to impossible at times to get out of their threat bubble. The beast suggestion is simply due to me feeling they still do need atleast 1-2 enemy types that will cause players to run like hell away from them.

[Nephera]

Maybe something that can grab a player, forcing them to mash E to get it off.

edit: that another player could shoot off pretty easily.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Nephera

[Sealgaire]

I'd like to see them balanced. Faster, jumpy, but a little less spongey, and the damage toned down.

Balanced against what exactly? The role the devs seem to want them to fill is a tanky melee one. If they were easier to kill, they might suffer from the same problems as other melee units and never be able to reach their threat range or stay in it long enough to do any damage. Lowering their damage a little and nerfing their stun should fix most peoples problems with them. As far as making them fast and jumpy, Leapers will hopefully fill the role of the quick, agile melee unit once they've received a little more love.

Chargers are pretty much the only infested unit that pose much of a threat right now, except toxic ancients if you depend on melee, and I really hope they stay that way. I'd be interested to see the statistics for percentage of deaths by faction type (relative to how often they're played of course). I bet infested aren't responsible for that many if any more deaths than the others even after the changes. I just think people aren't used to having to be as careful or actively adapt their tactics with them because up to this point they were a bit of a joke.

[neKroMancer]

The reason that the Infest need range unit is the lack of unit cohesion.

Grineer are well mixed. They can cover almost all range with their units. Tank with shield lancer. Range mooks. Cover flushing with prod wielding soldier. AOE attack with napalm and pin player down with heavy gorgon. Get on player's nerve with grinders.

Corpus has the most diverse units and tactics. Ospreys play a large part buffing, CC. Moars serve as an expendable mooks. Shockwave moar serve as a light tank with cover flushing/CC. Crewman prolarily shoot player and occasionally try to prod with their magic wands.

Now look at the Infest. All of their units must enter melee range to deal damage. I do not think that the Infest should build an entire faction based on such inflexibility. They can be a melee-oriented faction but not necessarily be limited to melee attack. They could use range units in a lesser degree compare to Corpus and Grineer.

Anther thing to consider is Infest's spawn mechanic. Some of them wandering around the map is fine but they certainly need a more me menancing way to enter the map. Perhaps they could spawn through the vent the same way Tenno enter the map. It would create better immersion 'they all around you but can not be seen' feeling.

New unit idea is good folks. Keep them coming!

Edited February 5, 2013 by neKroMancer

[TwilightAsh]

I am in favour of Infected having short-medium ranged attacks, not long range. Perhaps something like shotgun blast-like shards attack. Long range just doesn't fit the, IMHO. Like some of the suggestions here

[neKroMancer]

I'd like to see them balanced. Faster, jumpy, but a little less spongey, and the damage toned down.

Despite the fact that I enjoy the idea of less durable charger, I think they should hunt in pack. One of them should act as an alpha, leading the group and buff their brood's stat. She should be considerably bigger than the rest and moderately armored. Use 'Howl' special move to buff speed/damage of her brood. Under her presence, the pack are more organized, circling players and attack them from multiple directions simultaneously. Taking her out would change pack behavior into an mindlessly agressive, direct manner that they currently act.

[Aggh]

Imo if the healers are changed it should soley be the suggested revive mechanic. Making them a buffing mob could exacerbate any balance problems with newly introduced mobs . I can already imagine getting ganged by a bunch of buffed chargers which even without a buff can take you down pretty quick.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Aggh

[Zythi]

I would actually like the infested to go almost completely sideways from where they are. I think the best way to give them a good identity is to focus on a kit area that's less drastic than stun. Specifically, I'd like to see them become something of a "mobility" faction. Lots of gap closer with decent damage. The idea of the ancient charge and golem pull are good I think. So, for example:

Chargers- Cut damage, cut health, cut stun. Give them the leapers leap with a substantially shorter windup time. This gives them the role of cluttering you with trash which is useful when...

Runners/Leapers - Would like to see these reworked to a ranged unit of some sort. The bolto idea is good but I'd like to carry that a little farther. Maybe have the shots be slower and more dodgeable to account for the large number of spawns?

Poison Ancients- I like the charge. I think building the infested around mobility gives a more hectic gunplay scenario you don't really get from the other factions, dodging shockwave moa's and grinders withstanding. Poison globs might not be bad, but I think the added clutter from chargers will give you enough to worry about that they can reliably threaten.

Healing Ancients - Again, I like charge. I agree the heal is very weak. Would actually like for this to become some sort of "broodmother" unit to fit the theme. Maybe some sort of rebranded charger that takes very few hits (thinking 1) but serves as a meat shield for the heavier ancients. Give the Healing Ancients the ability to frenzy these spawns and they suddenly become unignorable. You don't want to shoot them because you want to shoot something else, but if they frenzy... A threat, but not a threat so to speak.

Disruptor Ancients - Hmm. I really rather like this unit, though I think it would be neat if they could use the stolen energy. Maybe a short range teleport? Something to punish the player for letting their energy be stolen.

Crawlers- Spawn them in corpses. I would like to see these guys become a surprise unit, even if they're not deadly. Example: You mow down a group of chargers, but the chargers are scripted so that if enough of them die, there's a chance a crawler spawns in the corpses. Make it explosive, I think.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New stuff

Bloat - Just a random name, but something that's similar to the ancients but not quite. Very very tanky, but mostly because of lots of health. Make it not resistant to much damage at all. Give it a very slow moving bile spit that slows the target. This helps the rest of the infected stick. Keep the damage low, so it's more of an avoidance than something you desperately need to kill. This gives the infested (along with some of the extra mobility abilities I mentioned) the extra sticking power that the small damage can add up through to make them threatening. As long as the health stays high and the damage low he becomes a living obstacle that can add complexity to engagements.

Basically, where I'm going with this is: Make the infested damage medium low, but give them excellent gap closers so that even though the damage is low, if you let the swarm catch you it can stick to you and threaten you. At the same time, if the damage is low, if you play smart and "thin the herd" so to speak, the last few won't be able to just spam catch you and kill you. Since everything but the ancients and bloat would be relatively low health, melee becomes a very viable option, and since the stickiness comes from mobility instead of stun you maintain control of your character and your ability to respond.

Just my 2cs.

[neKroMancer]

I'm thinking about buffing VS revive mechanic for Healing ancient.

Reviving is a good mechanic. However, there'll be trouble with the range of such ability. If the range is too large, then you might get to fight revived charger when the ancient is in the next room. Large range will fit the fact that healing ancient is support unit. Shorter range means the ancient must be close to the target to revive, exposing itself to Tenno squad and nullifying the point of reviving. Also, reviving dead ancient? Hell. Also, problem arise with the manner which the dead got killed. It wouldn't look good if all chargers got sliced into half by sword/axe and the ancient has nothing to revive.

Buffing may cause trouble with ancient buffing ancient(s) which is entirely possible with the current spawn mechanic. However, the ancient doesn't have to run around with the buffed hoard and risk getting stunlock by the Tenno.

IMO, both have merit. Personally, I still think that reviving is much harder to balance than buffing mechanic. Buffing mechanic could work in a limited fashion such as the ancient could buff everything but their own tier and set the hard cap to the number of simultaneously 'buffed' units.

Edited February 6, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Sealgaire]

Yea, but revive would be much more interesting and unique as a mechanic. It would really turn healing ancients into a priority target like shield ospreys are now. If we're trying to get away from stun use with the infested, we need new mechanics to keep them challenging.

[UkyoSonoda]

Which is why I feel infested need mechanics that make ranged or gun combat more difficult or less effective to promote players choosing to fight them close range melee or make it easier for the infested to get into a range where they're effective. Slows, pulls, faster run speed, bullet eaters, bullet resistant fodder troops, long range gun aim disruption, skill blocks, etc. Rather than what we have now of they still have this melee range threat bubble and are just given mechanics to make escaping that bubble difficult to at times impossible.

[neKroMancer]

Which is why I feel infested need mechanics that make ranged or gun combat more difficult or less effective to promote players choosing to fight them close range melee or make it easier for the infested to get into a range where they're effective. Slows, pulls, faster run speed, bullet eaters, bullet resistant fodder troops, long range gun aim disruption, skill blocks, etc. Rather than what we have now of they still have this melee range threat bubble and are just given mechanics to make escaping that bubble difficult to at times impossible.

Hmm..

That's acceptable strategy for infest. Perhaps a disruptor ancient should have ability to 'jam' your long gun and force you to rely on sidearm and melee weapon. Skill block - disruptor already do that when they drain 200 energy and 500 shield in a single attack.

However, I believe that they should have some medium range attack which either deal moderate damage or minor damage with some debuff. It should make them less melee-oriented and improve unit cohesion.

[MJ12]

The Infested right now severely punish you for fighting in their threat range, and do nothing else. This is terrible. Instead, they should synergize. There should be some units which are best killed by melee and reward you for closing, with others that don't.

They should have some basic ranged attacker which has a really slow and weak melee attack, but if its ranged attack (some kind of homing worms? Dunno) hits you makes Infested charge at you faster and more aggressively. Chargers should gain a niche as guys with... Charge. They mean staying at longer range could be risky. They'd be massively bullet-resistant but vulnerable in melee.

Old-style chargers, leapers, and Ancients give them close range punch.

Runners are the odd man out. I'm not sure what to do with them.