Would anyone turn traitor? Leave the Lotus

[Sziklamester]

I would not leave Lotus but make a Tenno directive to collect the tennos and guide them to make peace.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

These may jog your memory / feeling

 

 

[Smilomaniac]

4 hours ago, rand0mname said:

Looks like one Tenno gave up and Elder Queen succeeded in her ritual.

Fake news!

4 hours ago, PhotriusPyrelus said:

1)  Rebelling against enslavement is natural.
2) The Grineer made enemies of us in the process of our wakening.  That's on them, not us.  And we *still* work with them for the right price.  We're mercenaries at worst, and you don't hate the mercenary, you hate his employer.
3) And choose hypocrisy, becoming the very thing we rose up against?  NEVER!

Semi-roleplaying aside the Tenno weren't slaves, they were at worst regarded as tools of war, but they had their own hierarchy and were well taken care of (food, shelter, training, education and personal items) as far as the Tenno knew.
In the Octavia comic it's fairly obvious that Tenno have a high station in Orokin society, as Octavia is sent to retrieve Suda with a squad of Dax behind the warframe.While the Dax were controlled, the Tenno had freedom to do as they please as far as we know, they have never had any reason to be against the empire.
If the Tenno were ever truly slaves, it would be a point of technicality.

The Grineer are mostly a lost cause (with the Steel Meridian being an exception), but the Corpus aren't fleshed out very well yet. This whole "balance" act isn't very good storywise and I assume that if the leadership of the Corpus was to be dismantled, the rest would fall in line.

We would be better than the Orokin of course, we are after all far superior in all ways.

4 hours ago, Teloch said:

This is all fine and well from a viewpoint of an adult authoritarian, but...

...the teeno are just dumb kids who are about to hit their puberty. They don't think in the way you do :D

I would argue that they probably know military strategy fairly well along with some measure of politics pertaining to hierarchy. I don't think they're dumb at all and I think they were forced to mature during the time they were in the void aboard the Zariman (which was quite a while I think, but I don't remember where this was stated in lore. Maybe with Harrow?).

I agree that if they're the same age as they appear, it's unlikely that they're ready to lead much more than a squad of soldiers, but I would wager that they're a lot older than they look. We know they were in stasis (as well as their warframes apparently) but we don't know if that stasis ended when their warframes woke up or if their bodies were still suspended and their minds active, if so they could've been in stasis since shortly after their rescue and have had decades, if not centuries of experience.
Also keep in mind that the Tenno specifically balks at being called a child by Lotus, while it might be petulance or the fact that they've seen a lot of combat and it makes them feel more mature, I think the scenario I mentioned is more likely (and a far better story as none of us like the idea of being actual children).

Just as a note, I'm not actually authoritarian :) But if I were practically a super hero in a post apocalyptic sci-fi setting, I might well choose to take charge and lead by example. The idea though that the Tenno might be total snobs and see their place as the natural next step of humanity and the future leaders seems to be quite fitting. I'd love nothing more than to ditch Lotus and see a major shift in power as the individual Tenno start banding together to form the future.

[BornWithTeeth]

10 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

 

I would argue that they probably know military strategy fairly well along with some measure of politics pertaining to hierarchy. I don't think they're dumb at all and I think they were forced to mature during the time they were in the void aboard the Zariman (which was quite a while I think, but I don't remember where this was stated in lore. Maybe with Harrow?).

I agree that if they're the same age as they appear, it's unlikely that they're ready to lead much more than a squad of soldiers, but I would wager that they're a lot older than they look. We know they were in stasis (as well as their warframes apparently) but we don't know if that stasis ended when their warframes woke up or if their bodies were still suspended and their minds active, if so they could've been in stasis since shortly after their rescue and have had decades, if not centuries of experience.
Also keep in mind that the Tenno specifically balks at being called a child by Lotus, while it might be petulance or the fact that they've seen a lot of combat and it makes them feel more mature, I think the scenario I mentioned is more likely (and a far better story as none of us like the idea of being actual children).

 

Just bear in mind that Digital Extremes themselves disagree with this view of the Tenno. Going by actual game material and presentation, the Tenno are not and never were centuries old space ninjas with the bodies of immortal children. So far as DE are concerned, the Tenno are children. 100% children in absolutely every single respect, with no exceptions.

 

 

I don’t think this is a good thing, I think it’s completrly terrible writing, but take it up with Steve.

[Smilomaniac]

5 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Just bear in mind that Digital Extremes themselves disagree with this view of the Tenno. Going by actual game material and presentation, the Tenno are not and never were centuries old space ninjas with the bodies of immortal children. So far as DE are concerned, the Tenno are children. 100% children in absolutely every single respect, with no exceptions.

 

 

I don’t think this is a good thing, I think it’s completrly terrible writing, but take it up with Steve.

That's interesting and the first I've heard of this. Was this stated in a dev stream or something?

In this case I completely agree, it's terrible writing. I'd go the extra step and say it's contradictory to a lot of things, for one it assumes that the time span from them being aboard the Zariman, to become and train as tenno, to wage a war against the sentients and then have another war against the orokin would be around 1-2 years.

I don't buy it one bit, that's actually stupid.

[PhotriusPyrelus]

4 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Semi-roleplaying aside the Tenno weren't slaves, they were at worst regarded as tools of war, but they had their own hierarchy and were well taken care of (food, shelter, training, education and personal items) as far as the Tenno knew.

In the Octavia comic it's fairly obvious that Tenno have a high station in Orokin society, as Octavia is sent to retrieve Suda with a squad of Dax behind the warframe.While the Dax were controlled, the Tenno had freedom to do as they please as far as we know, they have never had any reason to be against the empire.
If the Tenno were ever truly slaves, it would be a point of technicality.

The Grineer are mostly a lost cause (with the Steel Meridian being an exception), but the Corpus aren't fleshed out very well yet. This whole "balance" act isn't very good storywise and I assume that if the leadership of the Corpus was to be dismantled, the rest would fall in line.

We would be better than the Orokin of course, we are after all far superior in all ways.

I really hate when important lore stuff is left out of the game itself.  x_x  I don't know where to go to find all the actual canon information (opposed to fanon and supposition), so I just kind of stumble around in the dark 'til stuff is mentioned in a quest.  Or someone on the forums makes me look like a fool.  ^_~

<3 Steel Meridian.  Why the heck are they 'allied' with the Red Veil instead of the Perrin Sequence or Suda is beyond my ken.  Red Veil and New Loka seem more in the same ideological boat.  If I'd known about the Red Veil's ideology before hand, I'm not sure I'd have participated in the Rescue event (yes I would have, because I'm a complete sucker for limited-time items)

I don't know about the Corpus.  From interactions with Glast, Alad, and Nef, I get the sense that they're a much looser consortium than the Grineer who are pretty much all (Steel Meridian and Kavor are statistically nonexistent) dedicated to the service of their Queens.

[BornWithTeeth]

16 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

 

I don't buy it one bit, that's actually stupid.

So, I’m assuming you have Operator dialogue switched off?

 

Operator dialogue, and the Operator questline, all makes it quite clear: the Tenno remember precisely bugger all about actually being the Orokin era Tenno. Their memory goes from the Zariman straight to waking up after the long sleep of the Second Dream, and amnesia has utterly wiped out any memory of being the Tenno-as-warrior-caste. This is so that DE can start from scratch and tell their story about going from being fragile children to becoming heroes.

 

Look at all of the Operator dialogue and note how many lines portray them as experienced ninja warriors vs how many lines portray them as children with some muddled memories discovering the solar system. The only thing they retain is the combat skills and the technical ability to pilot Warframes. Nothing else remains.

 

 

And yes, I do think that that is utterly goddamned stupid, terrible writing.

Edited November 21, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[(PSN)Chel-El]

@Bornwithteeth 

Evangelion & Naruto has pilots or warriors trained at a young age, so does most anime, so it’s not that macabre for fans of this genre tbh 

The idea of a runaway, reluctant pilot occurred in Eva while a main hero went rogue in Naruto. This theme is old as the Bible with stories of prodigal son and Cain vs Abel. 

Personally, I don’t like it as it will verge into PVP territory. Conclave is the more noble competition between the Tennos, let it stay that way. 

[Smilomaniac]

7 minutes ago, PhotriusPyrelus said:

I really hate when important lore stuff is left out of the game itself.  x_x  I don't know where to go to find all the actual canon information (opposed to fanon and supposition), so I just kind of stumble around in the dark 'til stuff is mentioned in a quest.  Or someone on the forums makes me look like a fool.  ^_~

<3 Steel Meridian.  Why the heck are they 'allied' with the Red Veil instead of the Perrin Sequence or Suda is beyond my ken.  Red Veil and New Loka seem more in the same ideological boat.  If I'd known about the Red Veil's ideology before hand, I'm not sure I'd have participated in the Rescue event (yes I would have, because I'm a complete sucker for limited-time items)

I don't know about the Corpus.  From interactions with Glast, Alad, and Nef, I get the sense that they're a much looser consortium than the Grineer who are pretty much all (Steel Meridian and Kavor are statistically nonexistent) dedicated to the service of their Queens.

Everything is left intentionally vague, all we have to go by are the codex entries, item descriptions and simaris scans. We know the Tenno had a hierarchy due to some of the Syandana descriptions.

While I like the idea of the Syndicates, they're just not fleshed out well enough. Besides Perrin Sequence we don't have much knowledge of what they're actually doing.

The Corpus seem very simple to me, a hyper corporate faction with a lot of mooks and workers who might as well have been your average citizen, only they saw a chance at a better life in joining up with them than being a fisherman in Cetus.

 

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

So, I’m assuming you have Operator dialogue switched off?

That's a terrible argument. As cringy as they sound, I would chalk that up to the voice actors more so than any sort of indication of the Tenno's level of maturity or knowledge.

[BornWithTeeth]

4 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Everything is left intentionally vague, all we have to go by are the codex entries, item descriptions and simaris scans. We know the Tenno had a hierarchy due to some of the Syandana descriptions.

While I like the idea of the Syndicates, they're just not fleshed out well enough. Besides Perrin Sequence we don't have much knowledge of what they're actually doing.

The Corpus seem very simple to me, a hyper corporate faction with a lot of mooks and workers who might as well have been your average citizen, only they saw a chance at a better life in joining up with them than being a fisherman in Cetus.

 

That's a terrible argument. As cringy as they sound, I would chalk that up to the voice actors more so than any sort of indication of the Tenno's level of maturity or knowledge.

“Disgusting monstrosities. I think they absorb their victims!”

 

“Don’t call me that [a child]!” *petulant stamp*

 

Dude. The Tenno are written as children.

[Smilomaniac]

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

“Disgusting monstrosities. I think they absorb their victims!”

 

“Don’t call me that [a child]!” *petulant stamp*

 

Dude. The Tenno are written as children.

And we agree the writing is terrible, so what? It's still a bad argument.

[BornWithTeeth]

9 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

And we agree the writing is terrible, so what? It's still a bad argument.

How is it a bad argument? The single most direct source of information about the mentality of the Tenno is their own statements and dialogue, and that content presents them as immature amnesiacs, who possess barely a shadowed remnant memory of the ninjas they were. You are arguing that we should discard the most solid information in the entire game regarding that subject because you don’t like what it implies.

 

You can absolutely argue that the Tenno should be the minds of immortal space ninjas, incarnated in the bodies of mutant children, and I’ll agree with you! However, that is not what DE’s own writing presents them as. It sucks! But it is what it is. DE are not telling the story of a caste of immortal monster-ninjas. They are telling the story of how the children of the Zariman grow up, and in order for them to do that, they are presenting them as children.

 

EDIT: Hey, if I can show you a bit from a devstream where DE refer to the Tenno as children who need to grow up or mature, will that go any distance here?

Edited November 21, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[Teloch]

33 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

so what?

We don't know. No one knows.

The course of the story depends on which foot would Steve step on when leaving his bed tomorrow. DE makes the story on the flight, and it serves only to justify the content/mechanics. Read to the latest devstream:

"As for her quest, we have no concrete details to share, but it probably will be Syndicate-related."

quest PROBABLYrelated = "we haven't decided how to squeeze her in yet"

Edited November 21, 2017 by Teloch

[(PSN)Chel-El]

If you’re interested in Tenno monologues, here’s one out of the voice customization menu 

“I am the will, the warframe is the hand” 

Very poetic and enlightened if you ask me. It shows a sense of detachment to their equipment that even most players don’t have.

I myself main a frame and abhor giving up weapons. Forced to flor with it because practicality-slots and meta frames like Limbo. 

Back to topic, this may sound cheesy -but Lotus is the main Operator of WF. Because the frame submits to the Tenno and all the Tenno submits to Lotus. 

[Velveteen]

On 11/20/2017 at 8:19 PM, (PS4)watt4hem said:

Edgelords will be first in line

with the weaboo katanas at their side 

[Teloch]

Just now, Velveteen said:

with the weaboo katanas at their side 

I would ditch the space "mom" at the first opportunity.

Does it make me an edgelord, a weeb, and a katana enthusiast?

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Teloch said:

I would ditch the space "mom" at the first opportunity.

Does it make me an edgelord, a weeb, and a katana enthusiast?

Be honest. You're wearing black lamellar armour right now, while cherry blossoms fall around your shoulders, aren't you?

[Velveteen]

1 minute ago, Teloch said:

I would ditch the space "mom" at the first opportunity.

Does it make me an edgelord, a weeb, and a katana enthusiast?

The act  itself, no. Wielding a katana with your frame scheme being black and red, weo weo weeb alert

[Smilomaniac]

21 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

How is it a bad argument? The single most direct source of information about the mentality of the Tenno is their own statements and dialogue, and that content presents them as immature amnesiacs, who possess barely a shadowed remnant memory of the ninjas they were. You are arguing that we should discard the most solid information in the entire game regarding that subject because you don’t like what it implies.

 

You can absolutely argue that the Tenno should be the minds of immortal space ninjas, incarnated in the bodies of mutant children, and I’ll agree with you! However, that is not what DE’s own writing presents them as. It sucks! But it is what it is. DE are not telling the story of a caste of immortal monster-ninjas. They are telling the story of how the children of the Zariman grow up, and in order for them to do that, they are presenting them as children.

 

EDIT: Hey, if I can show you a bit from a devstream where DE refer to the Tenno as children who need to grow up or mature, will that go any distance here?

I'm not interested in the one-liners because it's fluff without substance, there's nothing to infer from it that can't be explained by shoddy voiceacting and unimaginative writing. Their purpose is to provide a random bit of "action talk" during gameplay, a feature that was disabled by default.
You call it solid information, I call it a byproduct of a big idea that wasn't implemented very well which is the hallmark of DE.

As for the conversation at the end of the Second Dream, it's ambiguous to go either way, at least in my opinion. Since it's a "choose your own adventure" with a pick of four or six voice actors (I've just stuck with one, "Raven" I think, I didn't really test the others out) it's tough to get any good idea of their "mental state" and any petulance or child like behaviour can be explained away with ease.

I call it a bad argument because it's interpretational/subjective. If you take the lore bits and pieces we have and put them together, there's a lot of circumstancial evidence that their physical growth has been halted as some point. As an example, during the Harrow cut scenes the Tenno seem to be the same age as what they are now. Considering that any amount of training that they must've had along with two wars, it just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't at the very least be young adults by now.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, it's the opposite because I recognize you as a poster (we've talked before in-game, I have you on my friends list), I'm saying that if they've unequivacally stated that they are at the same mental age as their bodies, then they've screwed up and made a bad choice. That's why it's stupid.

I don't need it to believe you, but I'd love the timestamp/devstream to hear exactly what they said.

[Teloch]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Be honest. You're wearing black lamellar armour right now, while cherry blossoms fall around your shoulders, aren't you?

Nope. My rhino is midnight red - wheat-yellow - maroon :P

Check the profile

Edited November 21, 2017 by Teloch

[BornWithTeeth]

4 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

I'm not interested in the one-liners because it's fluff without substance, there's nothing to infer from it that can't be explained by shoddy voiceacting and unimaginative writing. Their purpose is to provide a random bit of "action talk" during gameplay, a feature that was disabled by default.
You call it solid information, I call it a byproduct of a big idea that wasn't implemented very well which is the hallmark of DE.

As for the conversation at the end of the Second Dream, it's ambiguous to go either way, at least in my opinion. Since it's a "choose your own adventure" with a pick of four or six voice actors (I've just stuck with one, "Raven" I think, I didn't really test the others out) it's tough to get any good idea of their "mental state" and any petulance or child like behaviour can be explained away with ease.

I call it a bad argument because it's interpretational/subjective. If you take the lore bits and pieces we have and put them together, there's a lot of circumstancial evidence that their physical growth has been halted as some point. As an example, during the Harrow cut scenes the Tenno seem to be the same age as what they are now. Considering that any amount of training that they must've had along with two wars, it just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't at the very least be young adults by now.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, it's the opposite because I recognize you as a poster (we've talked before in-game, I have you on my friends list), I'm saying that if they've unequivacally stated that they are at the same mental age as their bodies, then they've screwed up and made a bad choice. That's why it's stupid.

I don't need it to believe you, but I'd love the timestamp/devstream to hear exactly what they said.

My issue here is that you're basically saying "It would be bad if DE had chosen that creative path, so I choose not to believe it, and will describe the evidence for it as outliers to be ignored." That's kinda the definition of headcanon. You're starting with what you want to believe, and choosing to disregard evidence which you dislike.

 

Also, hang on: 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uohenXQOKrE&t=2470s#t=38m

 

In DE's view, the purpose of the War Within was so that your Operator can mature and grow up a little, and now Focus 2.0 is so they can finally become a warrior class. In other words, Operators needed to grow up, and were not yet truly a warrior class.

[Smilomaniac]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

My issue here is that you're basically saying "It would be bad if DE had chosen that creative path, so I choose not to believe it, and will describe the evidence for it as outliers to be ignored." That's kinda the definition of headcanon. You're starting with what you want to believe, and choosing to disregard evidence which you dislike.

 

Also, hang on: 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uohenXQOKrE&t=2470s#t=38m

 

In DE's view, the purpose of the War Within was so that your Operator can mature and grow up a little, and now Focus 2.0 is so they can finally become a warrior class. In other words, Operators needed to grow up, and were not yet truly a warrior class.

Hey thanks for finding that, I appreciate it.

That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying within the context of everything it doesn't make sense. What you argued is not evidence, let alone proof. You interpret the voice lines as being credible representation of a supposed mental state, I see them as a crutch to further convey the idea to the player. It's only headcanon if there's proof of the opposite.

On to what they stated at Tennocon, it supports the idea of an equivalent mental state, but it doesn't prove anything either way.
I'm not trying to be stubborn or obtuse about this, I think it's intentionally vague like everything else, that they could easily be talking about maturing the kids to fight as themselves, meaning that they're forced or encouraged to think about their way of life in a completely new way, which is not at all unique to children.

I don't think it bodes well for my argument, but I don't think it's convincing either, there's room to go whatever way they want if they ever want to address the timeline. Most likely they'll just choose to ignore it as usual.

 

[(PSN)Chel-El]

Well they don’t follow the Lotus 100% so they can’t be considered as puppets.

War Within dive to Kuva and the Grustag 3 ambush shows that Tenno still have free will to obey or disobey. 

The new PoE Lotus lines show they can also ignore her alerts entirely despite her pleas

[BornWithTeeth]

12 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Hey thanks for finding that, I appreciate it.

That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying within the context of everything it doesn't make sense. What you argued is not evidence, let alone proof. You interpret the voice lines as being credible representation of a supposed mental state, I see them as a crutch to further convey the idea to the player. It's only headcanon if there's proof of the opposite.

On to what they stated at Tennocon, it supports the idea of an equivalent mental state, but it doesn't prove anything either way.
I'm not trying to be stubborn or obtuse about this, I think it's intentionally vague like everything else, that they could easily be talking about maturing the kids to fight as themselves, meaning that they're forced or encouraged to think about their way of life in a completely new way, which is not at all unique to children.

I don't think it bodes well for my argument, but I don't think it's convincing either, there's room to go whatever way they want if they ever want to address the timeline. Most likely they'll just choose to ignore it as usual.

 

Put it this way: do you expect that DE will update Operator dialogue so that they sound like they know what they are doing? Do you expect that in future quests, DE will write the Tenno as mature adults who know what’s going on around them, can make plans based on their understanding, and display tactical acumen?

 

Or do you expect that the Tenno will be written as heroic children who overcome through inspiration and willpower?

[(PSN)Chel-El]

In the new Justice League movie, Wonder Woman has a late realization that she’s working with and leading man children. She’s very old and has the Amazon training and battle experience so she’s fit to lead.

Lotus is also old, knows history and its secrets, has a network of relay crewmen, spies and agents. She’s a most reliable and credible leader.

A lone Tenno breaking off her network would be lost. No more relays, mission alerts or gifts from the Lotus as someone said :(