Decent PVP would intice a whole new market

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, .Zel said:

I understand that, we're just merely discussing the possibilities of it. In Reality I am aware and many are aware too that Conclave won't garner a huge crowd, because the amount of people who play fast paced games like conclave have always been low.

Okay, I think I was misinterpreting your perspective in the context of the OP, which is suggesting that there is a huge PvP market for the game already. If you agree that the market is actually small, there's no further debate on this point.

1 hour ago, .Zel said:

The countless suggestions by the mass about removing Bullet Jumping or adding Stamina in Conclave to make it something like Arma/CS/CoD or any other FPS game out there is a good indication. People like their boots on the ground and not jumping around like ninjas, which is what Warframe's mobility promotes, fast paced gameplay. Let it be Quake/UT/Law Breakers, the playerbase in all of them are small but dedicated.

The biggest problem with high-mobility games (I'd posit that any game with LOW TTK is fast-paced) is that the extra dimension of movement exacerbates issues with lag. That makes games with most movement taking place on a 2D plane more broadly accessible.

That's actually probably one of the biggest issues with Conclave running P2P at the moment (unless they changed that; it's been a long time for me).

1 hour ago, .Zel said:

If Conclave is developed seriously then it will increase the population of PvP players, making it easier to find a match and that would give DE the chance to implement a proper MM. I don't see it going to E-sports, not in this decade at least. The PvP in Conclave is really unique, nothing like i've ever played before, but as you said it has its flaws. It would need many balance passes and testing before it reaches a fair ground.

See, that's the thing. I don't think it CAN reach fair ground. Conclave has received much more balance attention than the PvE game and it is still a relative mess.

There are simply too many variables at play when you have to account for character stats, hitscan vs. projectile, damage TYPE, mods, melee, number of weapons, etc.

DE would have to completely gut conclave to make it anything approaching fair, and at that point you have to ask why it would be worth it to bother.

Instead of trying to transmute Warframe, just build a high-mobility game from the ground-up.

[.Zel]

On 12/8/2017 at 12:33 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

biggest issues with Conclave running P2P at the moment

Conclave has servers now, so that issue has been resolved and most tend to stay in their own region for best ping for which you get less players lagging around now.

 

On 12/8/2017 at 12:33 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

more balance attention than the PvE

Well the reason it's a problem is because of the balance within the balance. If you've played Conclave within the past months then you can notice after a few games that DE hasn't balanced things to only offer equal opportunity for all but to also give a certain crowd the chance to do well. By that i mean the gross unbalanced 4th abilities and certain weapons, No good player will use those as they can effectively get more kills with a normal Braton or any other rifle, but certain players do need those to stand a chance against the experienced players in Conclave. You won't get plenty of kills with those equipments but you will at least get some kills if you time your attack right i.e hide behind a wall/door and press 4.

This isn't how a PvP game should be balanced, it should be balanced as such that everyone stand on equal ground in terms of things they have access too, CS:GO/Dota2 are good examples as you get everything in the game available to you from the start without any need to grind. Those 2 games also have proper MM. A proper MM is something Conclave doesn't have, for which players don't complain much about these Unbalanced weapons and abilities that require more luck than skill, because it gives those who only play casually or playing for the skins a chance against those who play regularly.

Overall I do feel it can reach a fair ground but DE isn't developing it to be on a fair ground only, It's a casual mode and from what i've seen this whole year it is being developed more to be a fun mode than a fair mode(it's only fun if you get kills and this direction DE is taking allows anyone willing to try to get kills).

Edited December 8, 2017 by .Zel

[DiabolusUrsus]

16 minutes ago, .Zel said:

Conclave has servers now, so that issue has been resolved and most tend to stay in their own region for best ping for which you get less players lagging around now.

Noted. I was only aware of player-hosted servers.

16 minutes ago, .Zel said:

Well the reason it's a problem is because of the balance within the balance. If you've played Conclave within the past months then you can notice after a few games that DE hasn't balanced things to only offer equal opportunity for all but to also give a certain crowd the chance to do well. By that i mean the gross unbalanced 4th abilities and certain weapons, No good player will use those as they can effectively get more kills with a normal Braton or any other rifle, but certain players do need those to stand a chance against the experienced players in Conclave. You won't get plenty of kills with those equipments but you will at least get some kills if you time your attack right i.e hide behind a wall/door and press 4.

This isn't how a PvP game should be balanced, it should be balanced as such that everyone stand on equal ground in terms of things they have access too, CS:GO/Dota2 are good examples as you get everything in the game available to you from the start without any need to grind. Those 2 games also have proper MM. A proper MM is something Conclave doesn't have, for which players don't complain much about these Unbalanced weapons and abilities that require more luck than skill, because it gives those who only play casually or playing for the skins a chance against those who play regularly.

Overall I do feel it can reach a fair ground but DE isn't developing it to be on a fair ground only, It's a casual mode and from what i've seen this whole year it is being developed more to be a fun mode than a fair mode(it's only fun if you get kills and this direction DE is taking allows anyone willing to try to get kills).

I will believe it can reach fair ground when I see it trending toward that; I think that the combination of weapon loadout with character diversity will brick-wall any serious attempts at fairness.

PvP games with tons of characters (MOBAs, fighters, etc.) always have character-locked kits, and games with tons of equipment always have fairly generic and interchangeable characters. That's what keeps the task of balancing semi-reasonable.

Anything on top of that is almost always globally available from the start (e.g. MOBA gear items).

[Foefaller]

I feel there are two things holding Conclave back at the moment; The need to PvE to do PvP, and the lack of generic rewards that can apply to PvE.

First one is probably the biggest, or at least is what holds back people like the OP that live and breathe PvP from jumping in. Right now there are 0 weapons and 3 frames that you can earn via Conclave, and those 3 frames are just the starter frames (Excal, Volt and Mag) and require that you hit the highest Conclave tier to unlock. Even if it's just Conclave-only, there really needs to be a way to earn weapons and 'frames within Conclave itself, and not have to PvE for them if you don't want to.

...which might be from the second thing: generic rewards. I want to emphasis "generic" because I know there are two armor sets, a Syandana, and several weapon skins and sigil that are Conclave exclusive, you can buy relic bundles with Conclave standing, and (at least last time I played) the random stance mod for completing the weekly challenges. I also remember how much people complained about being "forced" to PvP for taters with the Snowday Showdown event last year. But right now I'm talking resources like polymer, ferrite, muta samples etc. Things you collect to build things. Maybe even a flat amount of affinity on the gear you used depending on if you win or not. Obviously it should NEVER be as good as PvE for getting these things, but if you can give the PvE'ers something for the part of the game they're focused on by joining in on Conlcave, some might try a match or two when nothing else seems interesting and get hooked. I know personally, the thing that holds me back 9/10 from playing is the thought "I could do Conclave, or I could do X instead and get something I could use for new Y instead" and a lot of times, X is rarely the most efficient way of getting whatever it is I'm hunting for.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Foefaller

[Gandergear]

I agree having a server browser and advanced matchmaking for PVP would be a great benefit for PVP, it would also be a good thing for PVE since the wait for players function doens't work 99% of the time.

 

Having no server browser is a sin in every game, PVE or PVP regardless. If killing floor (tripwire) can do it, so can DE

[Reavxx]

So much negativity from vet players who dislike pvp. Its really sad, no argument can be made against fixing pvp,  to improve it. 

 

This is a pve game? Of course.  So is world of warcraft which has always boasted a large pvp playerbase who love the base game, open world questing, except instead of pve raiding at end game they do some pvp in addition to the usual dailys abd stuff. What is wrong with that? 

 

For me you people whinging are just salty because there is a pvp option. 

 

I am a new player of warframe, love the game so far and i will be getting into pvp, i made sure i like the pve though and its awesome,  i love a good grind. 

I love a good pvp match though and if wf keeps improving that i know even personally plenty of people who would jump on that.  

 

There are lots of pvp/pve players who would love a game that gives them both. 

That's the thing these negative people don't get, more people in wf is only a good thing, its not made just for you. 

[(PSN)equalavor]

I don't know about you guys, but the only thing I spend plat on is conclave cosmetics. 

Putaga sugatra, Gemini nikana sheaths, excal skins (cause excal ftw). 

Yes, we need more of these things, but they shouldn't be forced like the Riv Elite armor was. 

No one wants look crates, and as someone who plays PvP, I want something cosmetic you can only get in high level PvP. 

Thats why I use the Riv Comp armor, because any fool with 50plat can look like a pro player killer.

I don't play competitive games; I've never played Overwatch, I've played call of duty only a small handful of times, no destiny, no battlefield, or any of these other games everyone associates with someone who plays a PvP game. 

I come from MMOs, where PvP is open world and beautiful, and everyone's skill is tested at every engagement. I seriously don't care about this stupid crap people call PvP these days. 

At its root, Warframe is an mmo, and should be treated with the respect good mmos are given, not the printer press mentality of S#&$ty FPS console games. 

[Jarcu]

I would say because the majority of it's fan-base is built on desire for non-pvp content and introducing highly desired rewards from pvp only is viewed as being "forced" to pvp. Some loyalists would stick around if they 180'ed focus from the pve to pvp market. But I for one would be done with it, I loathe pvp and am overjoyed to have a large and popular multiplayer game to play (mostly) without it. That is a vast part of its appeal, and what sets it apart from the literal hoards of multiplayer shoot'em ups. If you want pvp badly. It is here, you can do it. If you want pvp so much that you want to fundamentally shift the focus of an entire game, there are plenty of other options for you out there right now.

Additionally warframe generally has a surprisingly friendly and helpful community. Is pvp bringing in lots of players to the game good for it? When drawn in for that aspect I actually do not think so, lest it get as bad as League or Overwatch.  (Admittedly I don't personally know how truly bad their communities are, but the internet seems to have a lot of videos claiming so.) 

I don't mind pvp in the game, or expansions to it, what I think makes the "non pvp" people mad is when we want an armor or weapon piece and then have no choice but to do content that's about as fun to us as pouring salt in our eyes for 3-4 hours to get it. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Jarcu

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:35 PM, krc473 said:

This would only be a valid argument if the people that do not care for PvP where few and had no money. I would imaging the people that play WF for reasons other than PvP will vastly outnumber those that care about PvP.

The issue here is that WF was never designed for PvP, this would be a massive amount of effort (because the current PvP is a little bit bad). I have zero interest in competitive WF. If they did it on the current system, it would probably just fall flat.

0 interest, & you found your way to this thread.

 

Ok I cannot get this pvp thing down, I want the rewards (cosmetics), but anybody can wreck me. MR 3+. I'm MR 21. It definitely doesn't bother me that its possible. But there is a imbalance somewhere. Overpowered/underpowered should be temporarily blocked from useage just to help us. Being 1 shot by Daikyu is not overpowered, it is a delicate slow powerhouse.

I'm curious OP what pvp are you after? Despite this eeird anti pvp players think $ in its whole will be used to improve the entire game. Hire a seperate team to deal with PvP, have a avatar save, make a separate download for dedicated PvP. All earned cosmetics cross over. Multiple PvP systems. Warframes, Tenno, Archwing, Grineer vs Corpus. It would be amazing. PvP players can pay for most frames are delve into PvE to get it free. 

This group of players just as well may pay plat for runs to get weapons/frames if it is cheeper. This offers a larger community that can seperate itself, but also support PvE groups. 

Warcraft, runescape, I've seen it before :) 

Just ideas, PvP can make/break a game. Tho DE is best at making this game not totally pay 2 win. So idk how pvp would make profit.

WoT clan competition isnt far off from being seperate & connected.

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 1:42 PM, .Zel said:

Well the reason it's a problem is because of the balance within the balance. If you've played Conclave within the past months then you can notice after a few games that DE hasn't balanced things to only offer equal opportunity for all but to also give a certain crowd the chance to do well. By that i mean the gross unbalanced 4th abilities and certain weapons

so glad I'm not crazy, Atlas 4 is trash. Loki decoy is better summon, unless a noob actually tries to fight them. Excal & Ivara are decent.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

It's because Teshin is working for the queens!

[krc473]

11 hours ago, (Xbox One)Evilpricetag said:

0 interest, & you found your way to this thread.

If you’re going to bother commenting on this. Make sure you read all my comments in this thread. I think you’ll find what I actually said is “zero interest in competitive play with the current system”. And, since when has not being interested in something meant you cannot have an opinion? I don’t even know why you bothered to quote me to be honest. 

[.Zel]

16 hours ago, (Xbox One)Evilpricetag said:

unless a noob actually tries to fight them. Excal & Ivara are decent.

ye that's the thing, People willing to learn/do well will use decent loadouts whereas people who just want quick rep for the skins will use the  gross op stuff. Glad someone understood what i was trying to say.

[Batmangts]

PvP is awesome in WF im on PC challenge me send me a request