Failure And Aborting Punishment Needs To Be Changed Into Less Hostile

[neKroMancer]

I think Warframe is now stepping into the game of consequence territory.

While many games don't punish you for failure, many other games also giving varieties of consequence for decision made by players. Failure/quitting is just a first step since it's individual choice. You choose to quit/you play bad, you fail, you get no reward. The Fomorian event was stated that it's fail-able. The script was there, ready to cut resource drop in half in case of failure.

The future event, Grineer settlement, also declared fail-able.

While Pave gave a few examples about game without consequence, there are also other games that geared toward an opposite direction. Witcher series, Mass Effect series, Deus Ex, Dishonored are successful IP with choice and consequence. Players have the power to change the world around them. ARPG like Diablo or Torchlight punish you with EXP and gold reduction if you die in the field. Civilization series also punish you severely for poor strategy and tactic.

While anyone can point out that these games are mostly single player, why should Warframe shy away from the concept because of it's online nature?

Personally, I see this kind of thing in every game. At least, the game punish you with loss of time for playing poorly. I think Warframe should be walking toward this direction since it gives better universe, better immersion, overall better gaming experience.

Failure and punishment are parts of the game as much as winning and reward are.

Edited August 2, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Tsukinoki]

@Blatantfool

I always considered it a TPS roguelike that just didn't have any major death penalties.

Like a roguelike it has randomly generated maps, enemy spawns, and a low chance of loot, repeatable dungeons, and low story value(currently at least).

The only real difference is that its real time instead of turn based, and you dont have to worry about perma-death or losing equipment or anything for dying.

So it could be considered a TPS roguelike.

@neKroMancer

I remember when the consequences for failing/losing/quitting something in game were actually consequences and not just a small slap on the wrist of "Oh,you just lost 5 minutes" (and one thing Pave said is that the maps can take hours...that is *only* true in defense missions when you want to go to the huge waves. Most are under 15).

It actually gave you a reason to try to win. And it made it so that if you lose, you actually lost something. Be it XP, Gold, items, and in some cases you could even lose all of your fancy equipment.

Compared to those WF has *very* light penalty for losing/quitting: you dont get to keep what you picked up.

You still get your xp and such. But the punishment is still very light and at the most you lose 15 minutes of work (or in a defense at most 5 waves).

@Pave

And while host migration is better, its still usually not so good. And even if it succeeds most likely the loot will have all despawned. One HUGE issue with what you want.

Further the community wants it because, guess what (and this may be a huge shocker), the majority of the community wants to be able to FINISH the missions they start. And it was a sizeable piece of the community that was ruining that for them. So DE catered to the community. Its not a punishment at all, its what the players actually wanted to happen. And by-and-large it was the *vast* majority of the playerbase that wanted this change.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[neKroMancer]

The game doesn't need a death penalty - this isn't an RPG.

 

 It is a TPS-Dungeon Crawler.

 

 If you fail you get nothing - Win and you get what you found.

 

 If you abort you fail. Like in the majority of games.

 

 

 No death penalty - you just 'Game Over' on the mission.

I highly doubt that it will stay TPS dungeon crawler for long. With livestream stated that player will be able to make choice in the future 'season1' of the storyline. RPG aspect will be incorporated into the game sooner or later.

[Blatantfool]

I highly doubt that it will stay TPS dungeon crawler for long. With livestream stated that player will be able to make choice in the future 'season1' of the storyline. RPG aspect will be incorporated into the game sooner or later.

 

 Select features does not an RPG make.

 

 Above I said that Warframe is as much an RPG as CoD. I said this for a particular reason. Having RPG features doesn't turn your game into an RPG. It just means your game incorporates common RPG features.

 

 CoD has leveling - hell it has leveling within leveling. 

 

 Having leveling doesn't make your game an RPG.

 

 Player choice - like a Karma system - is the same way. Action games like Infamous have Karma systems. The more recent Dishonored as well - plenty of RPG features without being a true RPG.

 

 

 

 So I'll even go back to what I said earlier - to correct myself. It isn't entirely appropriate to call Warframe a TPS/Dungeon Crawler. It just just a TPS with Dungeon crawler elements.

[Pave]

*various consequence things mentioned*

There actually has been some mentions about adding X-com and Dawn of War 2-elements, mainly regarding to non-linear progression via star-map, to name couple of examples. I can't find post(s) of these at the moment, so here how in future these elements could had affected in future of Warframe-universe:

 

- In Exterminate, after clearing the level, the Tenno is able to hold the area / ship / whatever was cleared at their own disposal. This could yield from various resource boosts to specific technology gaining. (similiar to capturing U.F.O.s in X-com and tactical-sectors in DoW2).

 

- In Defence(s), if the sector is lost, the area would be confescated by the the enemy, thus making them stronger in future (similiar to losing a Troop Transporters (worked as alien hatcheries you could encounter in later missions)).

 

Most of the mission types would yield similiar intelligence and various other bonuses. But that also required an "alliance"-system in a away or another (and it also required identifying the other factions to separate well enough from already existing ones).

 

Each faction would have their own scoring depending the performance; the higher the points, the stronger or more "winning" they are at the point (similiar how it works in X-com).

 

Those are the parts I remember off my head.

[Mietz]

  Hardly, in this case. Warframe is as much an RPG as CoD.

 

 

 

 

  You forgot the TPS part - which is where the vast majority of the core Gameplay is born from.

 

 Warframe is a Dungeon Crawler in that the levels are all randomly cobbled together when you load up.

 

 Warframe is a Third Person Shooter everywhere else.

 

A third person shooter with crit damages, elemental damage, levels, stats for characters and loot with craftable materials for equipment with varying statistics.

Its as much an RPG as Borderlands.

[Skywalker666]

The game doesn't need a death penalty - this isn't an RPG.

 

 It is a TPS-Dungeon Crawler.

 

 If you fail you get nothing - Win and you get what you found.

 

 If you abort you fail. Like in the majority of games.

 

 

 No death penalty - you just 'Game Over' on the mission.

 

Labels are easy to assign, but they don't necessarily define all the aspects of a game (luckily, else we would only have a dozen different games available...). In the case of warframe, it shares a lot of characteristics with classical (MMO)RPGs, most notably the heavy importance of grinding, both for items and experience, and this very characteristic is relevant for the point at stake.

 

And I can't find any game (amongst this "majority of games") I know which could compare to warframe in terms of overall gameplay, and still have this "you fail you lose" policy. I know that PSO, the closest to warframe game I ever played, does not have this attitude. But I admit it, I'm not overly knowledgeable about this family of games.

Comparing games in terms of general features has its dangers, most notably turning an original game into "just another XXX-like", but it still brings water to the discussion-pool.

[Blatantfool]

A third person shooter with crit damages, elemental damage, levels, stats for characters and loot with craftable materials for equipment with varying statistics.

Its as much an RPG as Borderlands.

 

  Pikmin has a few of those - is Pikmin now an RPG for having those features?

 

 The game is a TPS. It has features from other Genres rolled in to enhance this core gameplay. 

 

 If specific features where all it took to qualify a game for a specific Genre then Warframe would belong to five or six different categories - which is still probably lowballing it.

[neKroMancer]

Select features does not an RPG make.

 

 Above I said that Warframe is as much an RPG as CoD. I said this for a particular reason. Having RPG features doesn't turn your game into an RPG. It just means your game incorporates common RPG features.

 

 CoD has leveling - hell it has leveling within leveling. 

 

 Having leveling doesn't make your game an RPG.

 

 Player choice - like a Karma system - is the same way. Action games like Infamous have Karma systems. The more recent Dishonored as well - plenty of RPG features without being a true RPG.

 

 

 

 So I'll even go back to what I said earlier - to correct myself. It isn't entirely appropriate to call Warframe a TPS/Dungeon Crawler. It just just a TPS with Dungeon crawler elements.

So, Mass Effect isn't RPG? Just Sci-fi TPS with power and cover system with storyline and choices?

Dishonored isn't RPG? Is it just FPS stealth game with storyline and choice?

FF Series surely aren't RPG? Just turn based battle with linear storyline, right?

What is RPG? What defines RPG genre and aspect of it in these games? Does it have to have wizard, knight and dragon to be RPG?

[SoanoS]

Let's just face it, we can't win all the time...

 

Current "punishment" is fine by me. While it sucks big time to lose that rare multi-shot mod if I screw up and fail a mission, it is fair game. It is frustrating, but then again, it was my own fault for taking too much of a risk or doing something stupid in the mission, risking the objective.

 

What it comes to quitting, I see it as "giving up". It is the easy way out. The player SHOULD be "punished" for it. It is forfeiting all the rewards and items the player picked up, and sounds only fair to me, seeing as the player try to finish the mission and pressed "abort mission". Abort means canceling, right? Like it never happened. Why should we be rewarded for canceling our attempt at a mission?

 

What it comes to losing in a defense mission, the current 5-wave checkpoint system is fine, and I can live with it. It is like betting my reward against a chance at a better reward. If I lose, it means I overestimated my ability and lose my reward for the next tier but keep the stuff I got from previous tier. If anything, I find it a too bit kind with its reward system considering it gives you stuff for even a failure. But I am not complaining, it is a good way for less experienced players to get mods and materials for reasonable level of effort.

 

And I am not starting to argue about off-topic "which genre is this game now", we could argue about it until we ar blue in the face, and still not find an answer. Warframe is a game that is not "set" in any particular "genre". It is its own game. I enjoy it for what it is. That's all :)

[Mietz]

  Pikmin has a few of those - is Pikmin now an RPG for having those features?

 

 The game is a TPS. It has features from other Genres rolled in to enhance this core gameplay. 

 

 If specific features where all it took to qualify a game for a specific Genre then Warframe would belong to five or six different categories - which is still probably lowballing it.

 

What is the "core gameplay" of Warframe?

Its repeatedly participating in scenarios that give out rewards for the sake of progressing your character.

CoD isn't played for rewards, its played for competition (S#&$ competition, but hey), nothing in CoD follows the hallmarks of an RPG. The core concept of Warframe isn't progressing through a story like in GoW (there is none), its not direct PvP competition like in any other MP TPS (GunZ), its not score and its not the gameplay/scenario/challenge completion (L4D, Killing Floor) as the progression in difficulty necessitates progression of your character.

 

My argument is hardly centered around features or "elements" (i prefer the term "tropes"), it is an analysis of the game mechanics and everything in WF is geared towards item acquisition and/or progression typical for an RPG. 

 

Face it, nobody plays WF to complete a challenge (like finishing a mission) its being played for rewards that are -in- the missions.

 

Warframe is an RPG with TPS elements.

 

I cant answer your question about pikmin because i didnt play it.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Mietz

[neKroMancer]

There actually has been some mentions about adding X-com and Dawn of War 2-elements, mainly regarding to non-linear progression via star-map, to name couple of examples. I can't find post(s) of these at the moment, so here how in future these elements could had affected in future of Warframe-universe:

 

- In Exterminate, after clearing the level, the Tenno is able to hold the area / ship / whatever was cleared at their own disposal. This could yield from various resource boosts to specific technology gaining. (similiar to capturing U.F.O.s in X-com and tactical-sectors in DoW2).

 

- In Defence(s), if the sector is lost, the area would be confescated by the the enemy, thus making them stronger in future (similiar to losing a Troop Transporters (worked as alien hatcheries you could encounter in later missions)).

 

Most of the mission types would yield similiar intelligence and various other bonuses. But that also required an "alliance"-system in a away or another (and it also required identifying the other factions to separate well enough from already existing ones).

 

Each faction would have their own scoring depending the performance; the higher the points, the stronger or more "winning" they are at the point (similiar how it works in X-com).

 

Those are the parts I remember off my head.

 

So, you're ready to accept failure and punishment in grander scale but refuse to accept it on personal level?

[Blatantfool]

What is the "core gameplay" of Warframe?

Its repeatedly participating in scenarios that give out rewards for the sake of progressing your character.

CoD isn't played for rewards, its played for competition (S#&$ competition, but hey), nothing in CoD follows the hallmarks of an RPG. The core concept of Warframe isn't progressing through a story like in GoW (there is none), its not direct PvP competition like in any other MP TPS (GunZ), its not score and its not the gameplay/scenario/challenge completion (L4D, Killing Floor) as the progression in difficulty necessitates progression of your character.

 

My argument is hardly centered around features or "elements" (i prefer the term "tropes"), it is an analysis of the game mechanics and everything in WF is geared towards item acquisition and/or progression typical for an RPG. 

 

Face it, nobody plays WF to complete a challenge (like finishing a mission) its being played for rewards that are -in- the missions.

 

Warframe is an RPG with TPS elements.

 

I cant answer your question about pikmin because i didnt play it.

 

 I see what you are saying - that makes plenty of sense, certainly. 

 

 But I still feel like I can't agree. The focus of the gameplay - how you interact and experience it - is grounded in the Third Person Shooter. The RPG elements which are absolutely present are only there to enhance the TPS core of the game.

 

 

 

So, Mass Effect isn't RPG? Just Sci-fi TPS with power and cover system with storyline and choices?

Dishonored isn't RPG? Is it just FPS stealth game with storyline and choice?

FF Series surely aren't RPG? Just turn based battle with linear storyline, right?

What is RPG? What defines RPG genre and aspect of it in these games? Does it have to have wizard, knight and dragon to be RPG?

 

 Mass Effect is an RPG - the shooter elements are on the backburner for the most part. The shooting was never truly the focus.

 

 I'd say Mass Effect is the polar opposite of what I'd consider Warframe.

 

 I think maybe you are misunderstanding what I'm saying - or perhaps I'm being too vague.

 

 Having RPG features doesn't make your game an RPG - otherwise CoD, Gears or War, Halo and Fable 3(lol) would count as RPGs. 

 

 When those features are in place purely to enhance the real core of the game - to enhance and expand upon the REAL gameplay - it is something very different.

[Tsukinoki]

@neKroMancer

I think that Pave doesn't care what happens at a larger level as long as they get what they want, regardless of who they screw over to get it.

So Pave is definately one of the hosts that would grab the loot and DC, meaning that no one else got anything. But as long as they got the loot they dont care. I bet they would be clamoring for this if they were on the recieving end over a few dozen boss runs.

[neKroMancer]

 I see what you are saying - that makes plenty of sense, certainly. 

 

 But I still feel like I can't agree. The focus of the gameplay - how you interact and experience it - is grounded in the Third Person Shooter. The RPG elements which are absolutely present are only there to enhance the TPS core of the game.

 

 

 

 

 Mass Effect is an RPG - the shooter elements are on the backburner for the most part. The shooting was never truly the focus.

 

 I'd say Mass Effect is the polar opposite of what I'd consider Warframe.

 

 I think maybe you are misunderstanding what I'm saying - or perhaps I'm being too vague.

 

 Having RPG features doesn't make your game an RPG - otherwise CoD, Gears or War, Halo and Fable 3(lol) would count as RPGs. 

 

 When those features are in place purely to enhance the real core of the game - to enhance and expand upon the REAL gameplay - it is something very different.

 

I think of RPG as an aspect in these games. Depends on the focus of the game as a whole.

 

Using Mass Effect as an example, how many hours did you spend time shooting Geth in ME1 compared to the time taken to make a decision? As far as core gameplay is concerned, Mass Effect 1 is a TPS with power and cover system and linear storyline filled with false choices. 

 

Even CoD has an RPG aspect in single player campaign since player take a role of a soldier and flow with the narrative, even one without choices and linear in the extreme.

 

Yes, I agree that having an RPG feature doesn't mean that the game is an RPG. However, it's undeniable that when choices are given to the player and the story shift with these decision then RPG aspect of the game will be more apparent.

[Pave]

*slander and lies*

Usually, I don't have to protect my pride and honor, but you're making yet another exception, just like it was done by some others earlier:

 

 

Please, consider cutting down your indigent slander...

 

 

And yes, I was ready to accept us players not succeeding "perfectly" during the Fomorian-event, because frankly speaking I for one got burned out during that time.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Pave

[Tsukinoki]

@Pave

I call things how I see them from your reactions and everything.

And mostly what I hear from you: "I want to be able to just quit or fail with zero consequences and get everything and it doesnt matter that the rest of the group wants to finish the mission or that if I am host and dc they will probably lose all of their rewards"

That is the attitude that you are putting out there. That is why I said what I said.

You're putting out the attitude that as long as you get your rewards screw everyone else in your group.

That's what I am commenting on.

And if you can accept the community failing at an event and worsening things for everyone, why cant you accept a 5% fail and 1% quit rate? Or what, are you so perturbed that you lost out on a dozen or two dozen mods that you think you deserve them even if you failed to protect the objective or quit the mission?

And with how missions are now, PUGs are a lot more playable because the host usually finishes the mission. Which improves the overall gameplay experience for the *vast* majority of the playerbase. And I dont care that it makes it inconvenient for players who quit a mission, or who were not protecting the objective and failed. Because relatively they are in the minority of people who dont like this change. It was wanted by the community so just accept it.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Schattensang]

The only points where I want to keep my rewards is, when something happens I don't really have an impact on.

Like glitching trough a wall. I don't want to lose all my mods and ressources just cause of a glitch where I wasn't able to proceed anymore.

Or when the rest of the team just rushes through the mission. The one minute timer would be nice if it would be something like "You have one minute to collect some more things" instead of "You have one minute to get to the exit or you will lose EVERYTHING".

I mean... really... what's the point in this timer? That way you don't have to wait for someone AFK or something, but they still would get no things as they weren't even there to gather them.

[Tsukinoki]

@Schattensang

The ONLY thing that you lose from that 1 minute timer is the credits. If you're losing anything else then file a bug report.

Even in an alert mission, or T3 void, you'll get the end of mission reward and everything that you picked up. You just lose out on the extra bonus credits at the end of the mission.

[Mietz]

 I see what you are saying - that makes plenty of sense, certainly. 

 

 But I still feel like I can't agree. The focus of the gameplay - how you interact and experience it - is grounded in the Third Person Shooter. The RPG elements which are absolutely present are only there to enhance the TPS core of the game.

 

So you agree with my arguments but will still believe something else?

Wow.

[Tsukinoki]

@Mietz

He is saying he understands what your saying and where you're coming from, but he doesnt agree with it and will go on with his own beliefs on things.

[Skywalker666]

@Pave

I call things how I see them from your reactions and everything.

And mostly what I hear from you: "I want to be able to just quit or fail with zero consequences and get everything and it doesnt matter that the rest of the group wants to finish the mission or that if I am host and dc they will probably lose all of their rewards"

That is the attitude that you are putting out there. That is why I said what I said.

You're putting out the attitude that as long as you get your rewards screw everyone else in your group.

Hem... If failing or quitting doesn't make you give up on your reward, that'd be also true for all members of the party. They will only lose the completion bonus (unlock of the next mission if needed, credits, bonus exp and raid reward if raid or alike) in case they can't complete the mission, but their drops will be theirs to keep. That's not what I'd call "screwing everyone".

[Tsukinoki]

@Skywalker666

In most cases the host would kill the boss and pick up the drop and immeadiently DC.

That would prevent anyone else from getting any of the boss loot.

That was how it screwed over the rest of the group, or those unlucky enough to not get the BP/mod/whatever that the boss dropped.

And this would happen in a majority of pug matches.

If you happened to be further away from the drops than the host was, then most of the time you just couldn't get it. So it lead to the host ruining the run for everyone else.

And I think forfeiting the rewards is a good thing in that case. You prevented 3 other people from getting the rewards, so why should you get anything either?

Edited August 2, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[PsychedelicSnake]

Edited August 2, 2013 by PsychedelicSnake

[Venarge]

Well, third time the charm, as they say.

 

We're seeing an odd pattern: Whenever there is a valid support for removing this punishment, the thread gets instantly locked...

 

 

Anyways, here's to hope there will actual response from the Warframe-developement-team this time around.

 

Let's continue where we left off.

These Update & Build Notes is highly suggested to read through once again, before posting here; we're not living in April 2013-time anymore and the game has been improved and fixed a lot since.

You just dont deserve any reward for failure. Thats it. You got spoilt by games that rewarded you for being bad/dieing/failing whatever. This game is not gonna be like that. You s*** you dont get stuff. And thats good.